Do Skeletons Level By Classes?

**Scorponok** · 2017-10-17, 01:30 PM (ISO 8601)

I'm reading the skeleton template section on d20srd and it says I'm suppose to drop any hit die gained from class levels to a minimum of 1 and the remaining HD become d12s.

So if a necromancer kills a level 4 sorcerer, and uses his skeleton to form a part of his undead minions, he would only have 1d12 as HD, correct?

So if I wanted a skeleton with more HP than a d12, how does a skeleton level? (I mean in terms of mechanics, not that I'm against the skeleton clearing out a cave of kobalds to gain levels.)

Also, while I'm already asking, is there a difference between Orc skeletons, Bugbear skeletons, Halfling skeletons or Dwarf skeletons? It seems like some should have more HP or Attack.

**noob** · 2017-10-17, 01:36 PM (ISO 8601)

Let us compare dwarf skeleton to the other two kind of skeletons.
Bugbears have racial hit dice so their skeletons have more hit dice.
halfling skeleton is small thus making it have different stats as an undead(bonus to hit and harder to hit but less damage).
Orc skeleton have a 4 extra strength.

**AnimeTheCat** · 2017-10-17, 01:43 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Scorponok

I'm reading the skeleton template section on d20srd and it says I'm suppose to drop any hit die gained from class levels to a minimum of 1 and the remaining HD become d12s.

So if a necromancer kills a level 4 sorcerer, and uses his skeleton to form a part of his undead minions, he would only have 1d12 as HD, correct?

So if I wanted a skeleton with more HP than a d12, how does a skeleton level? (I mean in terms of mechanics, not that I'm against the skeleton clearing out a cave of kobalds to gain levels.)

Also, while I'm already asking, is there a difference between Orc skeletons, Bugbear skeletons, Halfling skeletons or Dwarf skeletons? It seems like some should have more HP or Attack.

I can't honestly answer the first 3 lines because I would opinion base things or do a lot of research. There are differences in the skeletons though. Skeleton is a template (which i'm sure you know) that as you said drops class HD and changes all remaining to d12s. I think Bugbears have 2 RHD which means they have 2d12 naturally, all the other have 1d12. The halfling skeleton will have slightly less damaging attacks (small size) but be harder to hit (small size) but will still have 1d12 HD since all undead (that I know of) have d12 HDs. I think is is to combat the fact that they don't have a con score and thus, without special care, get no bonus HP. Further, the skeleton template gives the base creature a +2 to dex and improved initiative (+5 to the initiative score). There isn't any sort of HP difference, but there is difference in ability scores.

**Zanos** · 2017-10-17, 01:43 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Scorponok

So if I wanted a skeleton with more HP than a d12, how does a skeleton level? (I mean in terms of mechanics, not that I'm against the skeleton clearing out a cave of kobalds to gain levels.)

It doesn't. Skeletons have Advancement: --. If you want a better skeleton, you need a stronger base creature.

Also, while I'm already asking, is there a difference between Orc skeletons, Bugbear skeletons, Halfling skeletons or Dwarf skeletons? It seems like some should have more HP or Attack.

Only class levels are dropped. Racial stat modifiers and racial hit dice are kept. A halfling skeleton will be small with +1 to hit and AC and smaller damage dice for it's claws, the orc skeleton will have more strength, and the dwarf skeleton will have 20 land speed. The bugbear skeleton will be 3d12 HD.

**AnimeTheCat** · 2017-10-17, 01:44 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Zanos

It doesn't. Skeletons have Advancement: --. If you want a better skeleton, you need a stronger base creature.

What if, for instance, you cast awaken undead on the skeleton. Could it then take class levels? I'm trying to figure out for myself tbh.

**Zanos** · 2017-10-17, 01:47 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by AnimeTheCat

What if, for instance, you cast awaken undead on the skeleton. Could it then take class levels? I'm trying to figure out for myself tbh.

Awaken Undead doesn't modify advancement, and as far as I know there's no rule that ties having an intelligence score to advancement.

Although awaken undead will make the skeleton stronger by virtue of giving it feats and skills and such.

**ShurikVch** · 2017-10-17, 01:49 PM (ISO 8601)

Skeleton got playable LA in one of older Dragon magazines - thus usable as PC and able to gain levels

**KillianHawkeye** · 2017-10-17, 02:11 PM (ISO 8601)

Any creature with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can take class levels, even if their advancement line doesn't indicate that. Dragons advance by age category (gaining racial Hit Dice in the process), and everybody knows that they could take class levels if they wanted to. It's supposed to be a pretty rare occurrence, but it can happen.

So yeah, an awakened skeleton could start leveling up like any other character. A normal, unintelligent skeleton cannot.

**ATHATH** · 2017-10-17, 02:36 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by ShurikVch

Skeleton got playable LA in one of older Dragon magazines - thus usable as PC and able to gain levels

Really? Which issue was the LA for skeletons in?

**ShurikVch** · 2017-10-17, 03:11 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by ATHATH

Really? Which issue was the LA for skeletons in?

#293 have ECLs for most of MM monsters
Because we know their HD, calculate the LA is easy

**Nifft** · 2017-10-17, 03:16 PM (ISO 8601)

BoVD has the Bone Creature template, which is like a skeleton but can advance.

**atemu1234** · 2017-10-17, 07:08 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Nifft

BoVD has the Bone Creature template, which is like a skeleton but can advance.

That's a good template, only +1 CR IIRC.

I'd recommend applying it to low-to-mid-level warriors, though.

**Thurbane** · 2017-10-17, 08:49 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by atemu1234

That's a good template, only +1 CR IIRC.

I'd recommend applying it to low-to-mid-level warriors, though.

Even better: +0 CR. Corpse Creature (in the same book - i.e. intelligent zombie) is CR +1.

I often use Bone Creature for my Undead BBEGs in place of Lich: you get more bang for your buck at CR +0 (IMHO, 2 more caster levels are more valuable to a BBEG than what Lich offers).

**atemu1234** · 2017-10-18, 12:57 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Thurbane

Even better: +0 CR. Corpse Creature (in the same book - i.e. intelligent zombie) is CR +1.

I often use Bone Creature for my Undead BBEGs in place of Lich: you get more bang for your buck at CR +0 (IMHO, 2 more caster levels are more valuable to a BBEG than what Lich offers).

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**ShurikVch** · 2017-10-18, 07:19 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Nifft

BoVD has the Bone Creature template, which is like a skeleton but can advance.

If we're looking at other Skeleton-like templates, then we have also:

Template	Source	Rules	Advancement	CR	LA
Bonesinger	Ghostwalk	3.0 (with 3.5 update booklet)	Same as the base creature	+0	+0 (not mentioned)
Cauldron Spawn	Dragon #340	3.5	Not mentioned	+2	+0 (not mentioned)
Guardian Skeleton	Knights of the Dinner Table #72	3.0	As base creature	Up to 3 HD +0; then +1
Skeletal Mage	Manual of Monsters (Warcraft the RPG)	3.5	Same as base creature.	+2	+3
Skeletal Warrior	Dragonlance Campaign Setting	3.0	By character class.	+1
Skeleton Warrior	Midnight's Terror (Kingdoms of Kalamar)	3.0	Not mentioned	+2
Skeleton Warrior	Tome of Horrors, Revised	3.5	By character class.	+2	+3

**Scorponok** · 2017-10-21, 01:08 AM (ISO 8601)

Very nice! I didn't know BoVD had those. I've heard a lot of DMs say they ban the book, mostly due to the "no evil characters allowed in this campaign" rule.

Some of the other ones look interesting as well, but might be a challenge to track down the books for.

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