[D&D 3.5] Undead Paladin.

[TheRageee]

Hi again!

Long story short, I'm creating a paladin who, facing a plague he couldn't stop, decided to become a necropolitan in order to comply his oath for the eternity (in particular, defend a tomb and an important artifact).

Would he become an ex-paladin even though he sacrified his own life for the greater good? If not... would he channel positive or negative energy, being undead? I like to imagine an undead paladin channeling positive energy while smiting foes, and suffering himself for his inner holy light.

Do you think this goes too far from the basic rules? Thanks!

[Venger]

Hi again!

Long story short, I'm creating a paladin who, facing a plague he couldn't stop, decided to become a necropolitan in order to comply his oath for the eternity (in particular, defend a tomb and an important artifact).

Would he become an ex-paladin even though he sacrified his own life for the greater good? If not... would he channel positive or negative energy, being undead? I like to imagine an undead paladin channeling positive energy while smiting foes, and suffering himself for his inner holy light.

Do you think this goes too far from the basic rules? Thanks!

Nope.

Necropolitan doesn't impose an alignment change, and there's no rule against turning undead in the paladin code.

There is nothing inherently Evil about being undead.

If you're talking about playing 3.5 and are playing a normal paladin, he keeps turning undead. if you're talking about pathfinder, I have no idea. tag the thread with "pathfinder" and psyren or someone else will come help you.

Sounds like a fun concept. Check out the bone knight prestige class from five nations, it might be a good thematic fit.

[TheRageee]

Nope.

Necropolitan doesn't impose an alignment change, and there's no rule against turning undead in the paladin code.

There is nothing inherently Evil about being undead.

If you're talking about playing 3.5 and are playing a normal paladin, he keeps turning undead. if you're talking about pathfinder, I have no idea. tag the thread with "pathfinder" and psyren or someone else will come help you.

Sounds like a fun concept. Check out the bone knight prestige class from five nations, it might be a good thematic fit.

Thanks for your answer! Yes, I play 3.5.
And thanks for the tip, tbh I didn't remember the Bone Knight PC. I'll use the Tomb Warden PC from Libris Mortis, aswell. :)

[Thurbane]

I'd check with the DM: the process involved in becoming a Necropolitan (Ritual of Crucimigration) involves cursed nails, two or three zombies (NE), and calling forth the name of evil powers and gods.

This isn't going to sit well with most LG Paladins.

Of course, the DM could re-fluff the ritual, or create a Deathless version of the Necropolitan.

[Necroticplague]

Being undead isn't intrinsically evil. However, animating any form of undead is. There's no exception made for that undead animated being yourself. It's a minor evil, so nobody but those with the absolutely most stringent alignment requirements will care, though (IIRC, one of the Fiendish Compendiums puts it on the same level as 'humiliating an underling'). Unfortunately, the Paladin code is one of those. Fortunately, Atonement specifically allows you to restore paladinhood after losing it for committing an evil act.

[TheRageee]

I'd check with the DM: the process involved in becoming a Necropolitan (Ritual of Crucimigration) involves cursed nails, two or three zombies (NE), and calling forth the name of evil powers and gods.

This isn't going to sit well with most LG Paladins.

Of course, the DM could re-fluff the ritual, or create a Deathless version of the Necropolitan.

I forgot to specify: I am the DM! I was doubtful about the Ritual of Crucimigration. I would modify the ritual somehow. He could have damned the good gods for having no help to save his people, and he could have embraced the non-life due to his hatred and sense of abandonment (although he still wants to honor his oath).
Also, I'd use a different template for the paladin, similiar to the Grey Paladins from PF, or just a lawful-neutral paladin.

[TheRageee]

Being undead isn't intrinsically evil. However, animating any form of undead is. There's no exception made for that undead animated being yourself. It's a minor evil, so nobody but those with the absolutely most stringent alignment requirements will care, though (IIRC, one of the Fiendish Compendiums puts it on the same level as 'humiliating an underling'). Unfortunately, the Paladin code is one of those. Fortunately, Atonement specifically allows you to restore paladinhood after losing it for committing an evil act.

So he could have been Atoned for his evil act? That's good. Thanks! :)

[eldskald]

Being undead isn't intrinsically evil. However, animating any form of undead is. There's no exception made for that undead animated being yourself. It's a minor evil, so nobody but those with the absolutely most stringent alignment requirements will care, though (IIRC, one of the Fiendish Compendiums puts it on the same level as 'humiliating an underling'). Unfortunately, the Paladin code is one of those. Fortunately, Atonement specifically allows you to restore paladinhood after losing it for committing an evil act.

Animating undead is considered evil because you are torturing someone else's soul in the process. If you are animating yourself as an undead, you are not torturing anyone else, so that might not be considered evil.

[Ashtagon]

Iirc atonement only works if the evil act was unintentional.

[Necroticplague]

Iirc atonement only works if the evil act was unintentional.

Nah, it simply has an XP cost of 500 if it was intentional.

[Nifft]

I love this idea.

It's even better if the Paladin was re-animated by someone who thought they were doing a good thing, but the process is technically [Evil] even if the product is unquestionably Good.

This leaves the Paladin in a morally questionable state. Why is the product of [Evil] provably Good? Has Necromancy gotten a bad rap? (Yes, but it's mostly deserved.)

Perhaps a crisis of faith / global religious schism / protestation of the faithful is in order.

[Yondu]

Hi you may find interresting the history of Miltiades, in the Forgotten Realms settings, who is an undead Paladin, it may be a good point to start..

[Zanos]

Nah, it simply has an XP cost of 500 if it was intentional.

You have to actually be serious about repenting though. You wouldnt craft a soul into a super rad evil magic item and then "atone" for it and keep walking around with it.

LM says undead are walking bad juju for...reasons. So most paladins sre probably going to want you destroyed.

[Ashtagon]

You have to actually be serious about repenting though. You wouldn't craft a soul into a super rad evil magic item and then "atone" for it and keep walking around with it.

LM says undead are walking bad juju for...reasons. So most paladins are probably going to want you destroyed.

I'd concur. Any sincere attempt at atonement should be coupled with a serious attempt at getting into a body that isn't powered by the tears of little children screaming in agony.

Apparently though, undead paladins have been written up in various campaign books though, which suggests my understanding of what paladins are allowed to do is flawed; or possibly that negative energy doesn't work the way I think it does; or far more likely, WotC doesn't read it's own verbiage for internal consistency.

(Of course, imc I do away with paladins as champions of goodness entirely, and re-make them as champions of $deity instead. That changes the question from "are undead inherently evil?" to "Is $deity cool with the undead?" That's a lot easier to answer.)

[Inevitability]

Animating undead is considered evil because you are torturing someone else's soul in the process. If you are animating yourself as an undead, you are not torturing anyone else, so that might not be considered evil.

I disagree. Take the animation of zombies: doubtless an example of creating undead, but not affecting the soul in any way.

[RoyVG]

I'm gonna echo Thurbane's words and perhaps consider some sort of event and make him Deathless instead of Undead? Instead of using a ritual himself, maybe the Paladin was raised as a Deathless by his deity after he sacrificed himself for the good of the people?

[noob]

Good gods do not randomly make people deathless.
Clerics however do that with the Create Deathless spell(and it is not even evil)

[Baldin]

The Book of Exalteds has the Prestige class Risen Martyr. It's designed specifically for a character that suffered martyrdom. It seems to fit!

[Nifft]

I disagree. Take the animation of zombies: doubtless an example of creating undead, but not affecting the soul in any way.

Yeah the "souls" thing is a bit of a leap.

Creating undead is [Evil] because the creation of undead slaves is an evil boss trope.

This paladin isn't a slave. The people who create Necropolitans aren't an evil boss. Necropolitan has the trappings of evil, but not the central justification.

[hamishspence]

Hi you may find interresting the history of Miltiades, in the Forgotten Realms settings, who is an undead Paladin, it may be a good point to start..

Miltiades was described as having no paladin powers, at one point, if I remember rightly. Still, he was very LG despite his undeadness.

[venturer]

You try using the deathless type from the Eberron Setting. They are powered by positive energy and are healed by positive energy.

[TheRageee]

Thanks to all. I decided to apply the Deathless type, the closest to what I was looking for. Have a good one! :)