The Last Jedi 2: The Next Last Jedi

[Mechalich]

Specific quibbles aside, TLJ handles Rey as a character poorly in general. This is the nominal protagonist of the sequel trilogy as a whole, but her agency in this film is highly limited. She goes off to convince Luke to help her save the galaxy, but he doesn't. Sure he tells her some things, but he ultimately refuses her to the point that she has to steal the Jedi texts in order to try and figure things out. It's Yoda who ultimately convinces Luke to 'act' (using the term very loosely) at the end of the film. She goes off to try and turn Kylo, but that doesn't work. Sure seeing her being tortured results in Snoke's death, but you can't tell me that Kylo didn't want to do that anyway and Rey's presence was mostly just an excuse for him to get away with it (and absorb some praetorian attention afterward). She escapes to the Millennium Falcon afterwards - no idea how - and distracts some TIE fighters. This is another case of the First Order being incompetent - since every TIE goes after the Falcon and they ignore the Sandskimmers, not that it ends up mattering anyway. And then, at the end, she lifts some rocks out of the way. Which also doesn't matter since the Resistance have blasters and could have blasted their way free (I mean come on, even the Ewok Movies understood that you could use blasters on rocks).

Rey spends a huge amount of time in TLJ reduced to a spectator in what is supposed to be her own story. When Kylo says that she has no place in this story, in some sense he's actually correct.

[Blackhawk748]

There is also not enough TIEs. Im not even sure if theres a full squadron of them at that battle, which is also weird considering theres at least 4 fully functional Star Destroyers in orbit (who should have just glassed the base)

[Jayngfet]

As much as people love to claim this movie was new and unexpected it's mostly just Empire and Jedi with the arc resolutions ripped off and anything any character can accomplish being written out. It feels unsatisfying to a lot of people because there's nothing to be satisfied about. Nobody really won or lost because characters aren't allowed to accomplish anything real or consequential beyond a few animals going about twenty feet beyond the city limits where the cops can already see them, and dying to solve a problem they caused by poor communication skills.

[Scowling Dragon]

Yeah more WWI germans then nazis from the first order considering their diversity

[Dr.Samurai]

The other stuff are still factors. The director could just as easily have had Kylo not get shot, right? But he did.

If the other stuff were still factors, we wouldn't see Kylo easily driving her back with every single blow. Rey is unable to mount an offensive against him.

The best you can say is "Kylo wasn't fighting at peak performance because of emotions and injuries, but it was still enough for him to defeat Rey. Until she tapped into the Force."

No clue. I'm sure we'll find out! Won't it be fun?

I already know from the movie lol. He didn't teach her a single force technique.

Her goal is to stop literal nazis however she can. I'm not sure why you think she, or anyone, needs more motivation than that.

That's not her goal. Her goal in TFA was to return home. Then to deliver a message to Luke, with the hope that he might know who her parents are, because the lightsaber called out to her. Her goal in TLJ is to convince Luke to help, and then to redeem Kylo. After that, she picks up the remaining two fighters of the Resistance on Crait.

I honestly don't know what in the movies has you saying her goal is to stop the First Order "however she can". What in the world gave you that impression??

It's possible that she becomes a resistance fighter in Episode IX. It's possible that she instead spends her time training. Or going after Kylo because she thinks she can still save him. But her motivation so far has not been "defeat the First Order at any cost".

That's Poe's motivation. And he paid the price for it in this movie.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
Han got in his head on the bridge, which (contrary to his belief) a stabbing did not fully resolve. Chewie shot him with a gun that does this, giving him a visibly limiting injury (judging by all the chest pounding he does from that moment onward.) Then Finn fought him and FINALLY, after all that, Rey did.

Just to build on this: in earlier scenes in TFA, we are given three separate examples of Chewie’s bowcaster dealing heavy damage—it’s not a regular blaster that just puts a hole in someone, it actually sends people flying through the air from the impact.

Those three examples aren’t just eye candy; they’re intended to give us a recurring sense of the bowcaster’s power, so when Kylo soaks up the shot from Chewie at the end, we understand just how much he was hit with.

And it’s also worth pointing out that Rey didn’t really defeat Kylo—she just held him off long enough for the ground to open up between them. Absent any geological activity, Kylo probably would’ve taken her down in another minute or so.

Originally Posted by The Aboleth
Vader is definitely toying with Luke in The Empire Strikes Back. For the first half of their fight, Vader only wields his lightsaber with one hand.

This is true enough, although George Lucas was apparently really irritated when he saw the dailies of that fight, since he didn’t like Vader fighting one-handed. I think that was Kershner’s idea, which for me works just fine, since it does show Vader holding back.

Kersh and Lucas had a good dynamic, if rather trying, because Kersh was a mature director in his own right and willing to challenge Lucas for the betterment of the film. Richard Marquand didn't have that confidence or experience, and he was brought onboard with the understanding that Lucas would be in creative control. Clearly Return suffered as a result.

Originally Posted by Mechalich
She escapes to the Millennium Falcon afterwards - no idea how -

I think it was Hox who said that she’d taken a ship, possibly Snoke’s shuttle.

Originally Posted by Mechalich
…every TIE goes after the Falcon and they ignore the Sandskimmers, not that it ends up mattering anyway.

The skimmers were visibly junk, so the TIE pilots were justifiably unconcerned about their prospects for damaging the ram-gun. And I think it was Kylo who demanded that every fighter go after the Falcon, so it’s not really the rank-and-file’s fault that Kylo ordered off their entire air cover.

I think the movie shows the disparity between personal obsession and military protocol well enough, with the needling and escalating words between Kylo and Hox. If Hox weren’t a raving sociopath you could almost feel sorry for the guy; he’s built this sinister military organization, and along comes Force Wunderkind with his cute little mask to take it over and make bad tactical decisions.

Originally Posted by Jayngfet
…a few animals going about twenty feet beyond the city limits where the cops can already see them….

I think you mean “two or three kilometers.”

And that was likely the first taste of real freedom those creatures ever had. Like the slave kids with their stories of the Jedi Master, it lays the groundwork for a future movement. Of course two Resistance fighters on a separate mission can’t overturn a whole society in a couple of hours; but they can give people (and other creatures) a hint of what freedom can be like.

[Blackhawk748]

I think the movie shows the disparity between personal obsession and military protocol well enough, with the needling and escalating words between Kylo and Hox. If Hox weren’t a raving sociopath utterly incompetent you could almost feel sorry for the guy; he’s built this sinister military organization, and along comes Force Wunderkind with his cute little mask to take it over and make bad tactical decisions.

Fixed that. He was a rabid dog in TFA, hes just a kicked dog in TLJ

[Scowling Dragon]

I think you mean “two or three kilometers.”

And that was likely the first taste of real freedom those creatures ever had. Like the slave kids with their stories of the Jedi Master, it lays the groundwork for a future movement. Of course two Resistance fighters on a separate mission can’t overturn a whole society in a couple of hours; but they can give people (and other creatures) a hint of what freedom can be like.

The stories of: Its futile and dont try.

Next film all your efforts will be in vain and your children will kill you.

That would fit well with the rest of the trilogies stories.

[Psyren]

Unless you see a literal Swastika I'm pretty sure you're being hyperbolic.

Spaaaaaaace-nazis then.

If the other stuff were still factors, we wouldn't see Kylo easily driving her back with every single blow. Rey is unable to mount an offensive against him.

Could you maybe make up your mind? Does she face adversity or not?

I already know from the movie lol. He didn't teach her a single force technique.

The training montage generally isn't where you see the results.

That's not her goal.

Of course it is. When she went to Luke, it was explicitly to get him to sign up, because they were losing. It's almost the first thing out of her mouth when she meets him.

I honestly don't know what in the movies has you saying her goal is to stop the First Order "however she can". What in the world gave you that impression??

Her own words to Luke maybe? That she said? Verbally?

[Blackhawk748]

Spaaaaaaace-nazis then.

Are they even that though? I mean, other than the color scheme they are just Authoritarians who nuked their enemies capital.

[Psyren]

Are they even that though? I mean, other than the color scheme they are just Authoritarians who nuked their enemies capital.

I don't actually care overmuch about the specific inspiration for a given set of fictional fascists honestly. "Nazi" is easy to type, so I call them that.

[Dr.Samurai]

Just to build on this: in earlier scenes in TFA, we are given three separate examples of Chewie’s bowcaster dealing heavy damage—it’s not a regular blaster that just puts a hole in someone, it actually sends people flying through the air from the impact.

Those three examples aren’t just eye candy; they’re intended to give us a recurring sense of the bowcaster’s power, so when Kylo soaks up the shot from Chewie at the end, we understand just how much he was hit with.

Okay everyone.. Kylo is just a man. And he doesn't wear armor. So if a bowcaster shot were to hit him, he would die. Because, as you point out, we were shown the power of the bowcaster several times throughout the movie.

But he didn't die. Why? Because he probably used the Force to tank the hit. I have no idea. But it doesn't kill him, like it should. It hurts him, but that doesn't affect his abilities in the fight, because he still defeats everyone! He still catches up to the heroes. He still toys around with Finn and beats him. He still drives Rey to her death before giving her a chance to join him.

Either the bowcaster should have killed him, or it should have hindered him, but we see that it did neither. Kylo does not appeared injured when fighting Rey until Rey injures him. Then he's crying out and exerting himself and limping.

And it’s also worth pointing out that Rey didn’t really defeat Kylo—she just held him off long enough for the ground to open up between them. Absent any geological activity, Kylo probably would’ve taken her down in another minute or so.

I really feel like I watched a different movie than other people lol. Rey dominates Kylo better than he does her. She strikes him easily not once, not twice, but three times, planting him on his back. Then she physically overpowers him while the *Jedi* music is playing in the background. Then she slices his face in half.

After she taps into the force Kylo does not stand a chance. What, in that sequence, makes you think he would have defeated her?

[Dr.Samurai]

Could you maybe make up your mind? Does she face adversity or not?

Nice dodge lol.

I'm talking about what heroes go through. Rey has agency issues and is problematic as a main character and hero. At no point in TFA is she actively trying to defeat the First Order as her goal. She actually ends up on Starkiller Base because she is running *away* from the plot and ends up being kidnapped. Then she rescues herself and bumps into the others while escaping. Then Kylo chases her down, not the other way around. Her encounter with him is not her decision, or choice. He forces it on her, and her ability to defeat him is not her own doing, the Force allows her to defeat him.

There is a difference between someone facing adversity, and someone struggling to accomplish something in a hero's journey. The whole point that started this back and forth is that Kylo, the villain, is the one we see really struggling to achieve something (whatever that is), and Rey is sort of just waffling around with unearned power.

The training montage generally isn't where you see the results.

Yes it is. And there wasn't a training montage. It's like we watched a different movie...

Of course it is. When she went to Luke, it was explicitly to get him to sign up, because they were losing. It's almost the first thing out of her mouth when she meets him.

That's the goal of the resistance, not Rey's goal.

[Aeson]

the Emperor wants Luke alive

Unless it's one of the things Lucas changed in one of the later editions, it's Vader, not the Emperor, who suggests turning rather than killing Luke in their discussion. The Emperor just wants Vader to deal with a potential threat before it becomes a problem.

The training montage generally isn't where you see the results.

I would say that it is extremely generous to call the Rey-Luke interactions in The Last Jedi a training montage. For starters, training montages usually give some indication that there's actually training going on beyond what gets shown.

Yes it is.

I mostly agree with Psyren that training montages are not where we see the results. Training montages are where we see someone, usually a major protagonist, trying things, obtaining guidance from a mentor, maybe having some failures and some small successes - all to lay the groundwork showing that they earned their success in some later scene, that they're not just pulling a completely new ability out of thin air to solve whatever their current dilema happens to be. They can be where we first see the trainee pull something off successfully and on a grand scale, but that's usually left for the climax, to which the training montage is just part of the build-up.

[Dr.Samurai]

I would say that it is extremely generous to call the Rey-Luke interactions in The Last Jedi a training montage. For starters, training montages usually give some indication that there's actually training going on beyond what gets shown.

Agreed. Bafflingly generous.

I mostly agree with Psyren that training montages are not where we see the results. Training montages are where we see someone, usually a major protagonist, trying things, obtaining guidance from a mentor, maybe having some failures and some small successes - all to lay the groundwork showing that they earned their success in some later scene, that they're not just pulling a completely new ability out of thin air to solve whatever their current dilema happens to be.

Many (I'd daresay all) training montages usually show improvements over time, whether someone is doing something more quickly, or becoming more accurate, or finally succeeding at something they couldn't do before. I don't think training montages are simply shots of people training.

Actually, no, maybe there are montages where it's just someone training and not necessarily improving. I'd say in this case though, were there to be a montage in this movie, they would probably show improvements, because it wouldn't just be Rey's regular routine, but rather THE grandmaster training her to improve on her potential.

[Psyren]

'm talking about what heroes go through. Rey has agency issues and is problematic as a main character and hero. At no point in TFA is she actively trying to defeat the First Order as her goal. She actually ends up on Starkiller Base because she is running *away* from the plot and ends up being kidnapped. Then she rescues herself and bumps into the others while escaping. Then Kylo chases her down, not the other way around. Her encounter with him is not her decision, or choice. He forces it on her, and her ability to defeat him is not her own doing, the Force allows her to defeat him.

Reluctant Hero is a pretty well-established trope, it's not like TFA is the first movie to ever use it. The point is that she's the hero(ine) now.

Yes it is. And there wasn't a training montage. It's like we watched a different movie.

In the movie you watched, did you see her doing lightsaber katas under his supervision? You think he was standing there out of boredom?

That's the goal of the resistance, not Rey's goal.

She's part of the resistance, did you forget?

[Mechalich]

In the movie you watched, did you see her doing lightsaber katas under his supervision? You think he was standing there out of boredom?

Possibly. Skellig Michael isn't that big in all honesty, it's not like there are a lot of places to go (it certainly isn't big enough to provide puffin-free shots, which is why Porgs exist).

Less tongue-in-cheek calling the spare number of scenes of Rey training a 'montage' is a significant stretch. There are scenes of her training, both on her own and through the very limited amount of information Luke is willing to convey, but they don't amount to a montage. There's no implied time compression and there's nothing to suggest Rey is doing more training off-screen. In fact the very structure of the rest of the film precludes there being anything.

Personally I don't have a huge problem with Rey learning to be really good at Force powers at unreasonably high speeds. The movie kind of demands it and audiences demand hyper-competent lightsaber choreography these days from even small children (such as the youngling in ROTS who saves Bail Organa). And Rey is a Chosen One. She's like Anakin, chosen by the Force to combat the threat of Kylo Ren apparently (the Force has some pretty funny priorities in the ST given how low Kylo scores on the intimidation and destruction scale but whatever), just minus the immaculate conception part. The problem with that is that it completely undercuts the intended deconstruction the film is trying to present.

The big reveal about Rey's parents comes immediately following Snoke's reveal that Rey is the counterbalance to Kylo. A mere ten minutes of film separates the two comments. It's really quite ridiculous, and that's not the only place where TLJ tries to have it both ways. The same thing happens with the Holdo/Finn sacrifices. One is good and one is bad, because apparently brief intervals are sufficient to flip the thematic calculus entirely.

[Dr.Samurai]

Reluctant Hero is a pretty well-established trope, it's not like TFA is the first movie to ever use it. The point is that she's the hero(ine) now.

Reluctant heroes usually have a different motivation. They don't want to do the hero thing, but something else has them doing it anyway, to their chagrin.

I don't see that in Rey. She's more of the "oh hey I'm here" type of "hero", where it's just because she's at the right place at the right time that she gets involved in the action, and because she's been chosen by the Force that she is actually able to do anything in those moments.

Whether it's BB-8 finding her, being at the market at the same time as Finn, being found by Han, being found in the woods by Kylo, being found on Starkiller Base by Finn and Co., being found in the woods again by Kylo, etc. This doesn't strike me as a reluctant hero.

Going to see Luke is her choice, but nothing heroic happens there. Then she gets seduced/incepted by Snoke/Kylo into a trap. She refuses to join Kylo. Then rescues the Resistance.

I'm not seeing much in the way of reluctant hero or hero in general except at the end there where she shows up to lift the rocks, something anyone aboard the Falcon could have done with the ship's guns.

In the movie you watched, did you see her doing lightsaber katas under his supervision? You think he was standing there out of boredom?

I first want to point out that this is a scene, as opposed to a montage. Secondly, he's not supervising her. As I remember it, he's walking and then looks up and happens to notice her training and stops to watch her for a while. Then she looks up and he's walking away. Because he is very specifically not training her.

She's part of the resistance, did you forget?

I very well may have. Do they say that she's part of the Resistance? I don't remember her ever formally joining. She runs away from the lightsaber and then gets kidnapped. Sees Han get killed, totally curbstomps Kylo, and returns to break the news to her old friend and confidante General Leia that their long time friend and companion Han Solo passed away. Then she's given the lightsaber to bring to Luke. I honestly don't recall her taking up the cause of the Resistance, but I admit I've only see the movie twice and may have forgotten that part.

I have a vague memory of her having a change of heart at the cantina, and that causes a rift between her and Finn. Is that where she decides to stop the First Order? Because I believe before then she's telling Han she needs to get back to her home planet.

[Aeson]

Many (I'd daresay all) training montages usually show improvements over time, whether someone is doing something more quickly, or becoming more accurate, or finally succeeding at something they couldn't do before. I don't think training montages are simply shots of people training.

Actually, no, maybe there are montages where it's just someone training and not necessarily improving. I'd say in this case though, were there to be a montage in this movie, they would probably show improvements, because it wouldn't just be Rey's regular routine, but rather THE grandmaster training her to improve on her potential.

I think the issue is that we have a different view of what constitutes the "results" of the training received. To me, the "result" of the training montage is that the protagonist learned whatever it was that they needed to defeat the antagonist, and the climax, when the hero beats, or in some cases fails to beat, the villain, is when those results are shown. The training montage is just composed of scenes set at various points in the learning process.

I agree that most training montages indicate improvement over time, however.

[Psyren]

Reluctant heroes usually have a different motivation. They don't want to do the hero thing, but something else has them doing it anyway, to their chagrin.

Like getting kidnapped, then your kidnappers taking an unhealthy interest in you? And also they're fascists?

I first want to point out that this is a scene, as opposed to a montage. Secondly, he's not supervising her. As I remember it, he's walking and then looks up and happens to notice her training and stops to watch her for a while. Then she looks up and he's walking away. Because he is very specifically not training her.

Even though he said he was? If he was going to lie to her face like that, you'd think she'd notice after a while.

I very well may have. Do they say that she's part of the Resistance?

She says "we need you" rather than "they."

Possibly. Skellig Michael isn't that big in all honesty, it's not like there are a lot of places to go (it certainly isn't big enough to provide puffin-free shots, which is why Porgs exist).

He was doing fine living there without her (or anyone), and chose to go there in the first place, so I doubt he was that starved for stimulus.

Less tongue-in-cheek calling the spare number of scenes of Rey training a 'montage' is a significant stretch.

"Training sequence" then? Whatever helps y'all grasp that she was doing all that to improve, not because she couldn't get Netflix on that crappy planet and there was nothing else to do.

Personally I don't have a huge problem with Rey learning to be really good at Force powers at unreasonably high speeds. The movie kind of demands it and audiences demand hyper-competent lightsaber choreography these days from even small children (such as the youngling in ROTS who saves Bail Organa). And Rey is a Chosen One. She's like Anakin, chosen by the Force to combat the threat of Kylo Ren apparently (the Force has some pretty funny priorities in the ST given how low Kylo scores on the intimidation and destruction scale but whatever), just minus the immaculate conception part. The problem with that is that it completely undercuts the intended deconstruction the film is trying to present.

The big reveal about Rey's parents comes immediately following Snoke's reveal that Rey is the counterbalance to Kylo. A mere ten minutes of film separates the two comments. It's really quite ridiculous, and that's not the only place where TLJ tries to have it both ways.

How is that inconsistent? She's chosen by the Force. She's also of zero pedigree/dynasty. These are not mutually exclusive, and that's what the movie is trying to get across. That kid with the broom might be a savant for all we know, and that's a good thing because that's how it works in the real world.

[Aeson]

Even though he said he was? If he was going to lie to her face like that, you'd think she'd notice after a while.

If I recall correctly: She chased after him begging for a while and eventually he said he'd train her, and then after the first lesson - a brief meditation exercise - he told her that her potential and willingness to embrace the Dark Side and basically stormed off, and we don't really see any indication that he trained her again after that.

[Baby Gary]

I think for once I am finally qualified to talk about something, lol.

I happen to be a longsword fencer* as of early September, 2017. Longsword fencing is one of the closest real world parallels to Lightsaber dueling. A couple things.

What Rey does on the island (the "training" with the stone)

that is really, like really easy to do. Just grab your handy dandy sword and swing it in a badass way, simple as that. However that does not in anyway mean that she is good. A lot of her technique is horrible. Her stance is incorrect, her grip of the darn weapon is questionable, and her "Awesome^tm lightsaber skills" are not that good at all.

TL;DR-- Anyone could go up to a rock with a sword and swing it like that and look cool, there is nothing special about it.

Rey and actual fighting.

How the Hell can Rey, who knows almost nothing about proper fighting, defeat 3 (I think) of the Petorian guard, highly trained and, supposedly, very skilled fighters and not be totally crushed by Kylo freaken Ren?!? Lets break this down. I think that it is almost impossible, if not actually impossible, for a person with no actual training with a sword to defeat 3 of the elitist of the elite, the best that there are. I, who am rather fit if I do say so, struggle to land a single hit on some people who have been fencing for 2 years as a hobby, I think it would be impossible, outside of dumb luck, to win a bout against someone with the skill level of the Petorian guard. Btw they aren't even that good at fighting if you watch them fight in the movie. Supposedly they are but they are not. To all the people who are like "Rey could do it if she had some training, maybe she trained with luke off screen" No, just no. The entire movie takes place over less than a week IIRC, and that is not enough time to train to be a skillful combatant with a sword. There is no way that she could be that good, period. Hello Mary Sue! Some people might say that she used the force to make her better at fighting, if that is so then a) tell me if, at any time before TLJ, Jedi used the force the enhance their fighting, not as far as I remember, and b) we say nothing in the movie that suggested that Rey was using the force to argument her combat capabilities. Also the same thing for the force as what I said about the fighting. How do you get so damn good in no time with no training?!? Tell me Mary S... I mean Rey.

-Baby Gary

*to be exact I have mainly learned from the late medieval german fencing manuscripts, well my teachers have learned from them. There are other styles of fighting with a longsword but I do not know them so if I incorrectly say something about longsword fencing in general thats why

[Baby Gary]

The training montage generally isn't where you see the results.

What training? when ray is fooling off with the rock and is "Training" with the lightsaber? When Luke is... that scene with the space cows (you know what I am talking about), when they are walking over the island, when they hunt fish, when they look at the Jedi texts. When is the actual training?!? When does she learn how to fight with a lightsaber well and when does she learn to use the force well, and don't say that one scene when Luke sees that the dark side of the force is calling for her, that hardly counts as training, an into course maybe.

Also remember that the entire movie takes place over around a week IIRC, Not enough time to become competent with the force or the lightsaber.

See my previous post for more detail about this

-Baby Gary

[Psyren]

When is the actual training?!?

Offscreen?!?

Also remember that the entire movie takes place over around a week IIRC, Not enough time to become competent with the force or the lightsaber.

Are you a Jedi? Or Rey herself? How do you know how long her competency takes?

[Baby Gary]

Offscreen?!?



Are you a Jedi? Or Rey herself? How do you know how long her competency takes?

Ok, I am just assuming for training with the force. However I have been doing longsword fencing for almost half a year now and I would crumble in a fight against Kylo or one of the Pretorian Guard, if they are as good as they are supposed to be. You would know this if you read my other post though, I went into detail about it there

However competence wasn't the best word, a better one would have been "the slightest chance to win in a battle with Kylo" I think that would clear up my point a bit

[Reddish Mage]

Let's see given real life swordsmanship is a deep martial art that takes years to master. I assume the taking a plasma-fueled sword that's light as a feather and capable of hacking straight through anything short of futuristic metal is something you can learn to wield in three or four different styles (we see Rey trying out several classic lightsaber styles straight off the bat) in about a week.

By the way. Luke made a big deal out of not actually teaching Rey anything, and Rey tried out those light saber forms vary early on the island BEFORE any of those fancy things happened. As I recall, the forms she tried out included wielding the saber with her hands reversed, Ahsoka style.

Also, within that week she didn't just learn basics. She thoroughly mastered the saber well enough to defeat the elite among the elite from a entire worlds of melee fighters Snoke had to pick his guard from.

Rey's performance with a light saber would be like her getting into a x-wing and suddenly being able to do everything Poe Dameron can do...

[Lethologica]

Yes, as in 2 days. Because all of these things are happening concurrently and we havent had anyone show or tell us anything different unlike with Luke and Dagobah. Plus the fact that she talks with Kylo when he's aboard the Supremacy during the chase gives us even more evidence for how short a time she spends there.

Nitpick: this is specifically evidence of how short a time Rey spends being trained by Luke (which is of course still the relevant time frame). We have no way to pin down how long Luke refused to train her, except that it's after the other events of TFA.

I honestly can't tell from your responses if you're being serious or not. Kylo is confused when they are first linked, so clearly he's not the one doing it. He quickly ascertains it isn't Rey, because the effort would kill her. Then Snoke says he did it.

While that may have been what was meant, Snoke's dialogue only explicitly takes credit for introducing weakness into Kylo and knowing Rey would sense it and take the bait. As such, Snoke knew the link was there, but may or may not have created it. That the link occurs again after Snoke's death is weak evidence that Snoke didn't create it, though by no means dispositive.

Unless you see a literal Swastika I'm pretty sure you're being hyperbolic.

Blatantly designed based on the Nazis while committing worse misdeeds than the Nazis ever did. If 'literal' is a stretch, so is 'hyperbolic'.

If I recall correctly: She chased after him begging for a while and eventually he said he'd train her, and then after the first lesson - a brief meditation exercise - he told her that her potential and willingness to embrace the Dark Side and basically stormed off, and we don't really see any indication that he trained her again after that.

He does engage her in another lesson, but you're correct that this is the only training Rey is shown to receive from Luke that isn't just philosophical debate. And given Luke's strenuous and ongoing opposition to training her, there's little basis for interpolating training that wasn't shown.

[Foeofthelance]

What training? when ray is fooling off with the rock and is "Training" with the lightsaber? When Luke is... that scene with the space cows (you know what I am talking about), when they are walking over the island, when they hunt fish, when they look at the Jedi texts. When is the actual training?!? When does she learn how to fight with a lightsaber well and when does she learn to use the force well, and don't say that one scene when Luke sees that the dark side of the force is calling for her, that hardly counts as training, an into course maybe.

Also remember that the entire movie takes place over around a week IIRC, Not enough time to become competent with the force or the lightsaber.

See my previous post for more detail about this

-Baby Gary

You know, I've been reading the whole debate about Rey's training, and I think we're missing a big point from the original trilogy:

"Do. Or do not. There is no try."

All Rey has done in the movies are things that we know she can already do, such as fighting, and things she has seen another Force user already do. It isn't difficult to assume that she's been fighting intuitively with the Force all her life, and from the demonstration in TLJ she seems to wield the lightsaber with the same style she wields the staff. If anything, she's just not used to its size yet, hence cutting the rock in half where the heavier staff was checked. As for suddenly tossing boulders when earlier she was just moving pebbles, Yoda's whole point with the X-wing in ESB was that size doesn't matter to Force telekinesis. Its a matter of confidence, the one thing Rey doesn't seem to lack. She manages to influence a stormtrooper because Kylo already smashed his way into her head. And when we look at her fights, its a matter of who has more confidence:

Kylo vs Rey: Kylo is torn up by doubt, Ren is out for blood. Determination beats doubt.
Snoke vs Rey: Snoke is so confident in himself, they had to build a 60km wide ship to house his ego. Rey loses like a toddler in a heavyweight boxing match.
Kylo vs Rey - Revenge of the Wannabe Sith: Kylo's pretty much chucked his doubts aside. Rey's not buying his sales pitch. Ends in a tie.

Since she's only doing what everyone else is already doing with the Force, it never occurs to her that she can't do it, too. Heck, reading those books might just be the worst possible thing for her...

[Reddish Mage]

Blatantly designed based on the Nazis while committing worse misdeeds than the Nazis ever did. If 'literal' is a stretch, so is 'hyperbolic'.

I think its best for people be accurate when referring to villains based on Nazis.

Also, while destroying entire star systems and fielding a galaxy-contending army composed entirely of kidnapped children puts them numerically in the "worse then Nazis" slot, the sheer depth and graphic nature of some of the Nazis atrocities will never enter the Star Wars universe as long as Disney holds the property.

In other words, for a faction that has invoked a few scenes with Nazi-like imagery and otherwise don't actually have much else to do with Nazis as oppose to any other oppressive Imperial power, there's just not a lot of Nazi comparison to be making.

[Metahuman1]

Ok, I am just assuming for training with the force. However I have been doing longsword fencing for almost half a year now and I would crumble in a fight against Kylo or one of the Pretorian Guard, if they are as good as they are supposed to be. You would know this if you read my other post though, I went into detail about it there

However competence wasn't the best word, a better one would have been "the slightest chance to win in a battle with Kylo" I think that would clear up my point a bit

This man has the right of it on the matter.


Even if, EVEN IF, I give Ray that she's a profound prodigy with weapons combat AND Force use and that her foes didn't have the latter, beating that many guards, whom are wearing armor that we are shown on screen in that same fight is capable of stopping attacks from light sabers and who have a considerable number advantage, is frankly ridiculous.



Now, if they'd left the time scale vague or even made it longer, say, start with the stuff with luke, then part way in cut to the stuff with Poe and The Resistance, and then cut back to her and Luke training and made a remark with R2 or Chewie that it had been awhile, I'd be happy to let it slide.

As is? That's a Tallllllllll order.






Also, yeah, that Vice Admiral? Can we just talk about how ridiculous it is that she's that high up, bungles things that badly, and were suppose to think she was right in any way shape or form?

No, seriously, how hard when she assumed command and one of her freaking top officers goes to her about the plan would it be to say "We lead them on a chase to close ground to some place we can hide. We loose the ships and that's going to hurt, but we have cloaked transports that they won't be able to detect, and we can slip away unnoticed, live to fight another day, and rally supporters and allies while we do."?


Also, way to ruin the one villain who could be perceived as a legit threat there movie. *Slow clap.* Way. To. Go.

And I'd like to Add Kylo and Lukes little how he turned story ****s all over Luke, and between that and killing Han last movie with out even putting the original 3 on screen one last time has frankly gotten me to the point that I'm starting to think the people working these movies are actively contemptuous of the franchise.



On the whole, I don't hate the movie, but I am disappointed with it.