[3.5] Enchanter necromancer

[Fynzmirs]

It's my first post so I'm not sure whether it's a right place.

And excuse me my poor English skills.

That aside, I'm planning to create a character who is a neutral or evil enchanter, obsessed with undeath (or rather a necromancer obsessed with charming, both living and undead). I know that for the minion-based necromancer, the best class is a cleric (or a dread necromancer). But on the other hand, wizard is definitely better at enchantment spells. That brings a question - what should my build look like? It doesn't have to be super-pro build, but I'm struggling to create something at least playable.

I'd also prefer to have Diplomacy as a class-skill, for obvious role-playing reason. Bluff would also be handy, but not necessary.

I know about Necropolitans and I plan to become one as soon as I can. I'm also considering Fiend Binder PrC from the Tome of Magic, to further expand my "evil friend list". But it also isn't necessary.

Be free to use any books. I can even convince my DM to use something from 3.0 or Dragon magazine, so that should not be a problem.

[Eldariel]

Either Cleric or Wizard would work fine. Wizard has the Command Undead spell making for essentially unlimited control cap, though you'd be well-advised to pick up Desecrate through e.g. Arcane Disciple if you go that route. For the skills, you can always use feats to pick them up and perhaps multiclass into a skill monkey base like Unseen Seer later. Alternatively, Cleric can just take domains for the Charm abilities, Bluff & company and comes naturally equipped to handle Necromancing. You'd still want to pick up Command Undead but Divine Magician [Complete Mage] alternative class feature is an easy way of going about that. You couldn't multiclass very much if you want to keep full Rebuke advancement (Not many reasonable PRCs advance Rebuke Undead), but something like Paragnostic Apostle might work, or just plain Cleric going Cloistered Cleric for skill points. So...your choice. Arcane or divine? Dread Necro is workable too but a less customizable chassis than either Wizard or Cleric.

I recommend checking out Unlimited Bone Works and K's Revised Necromancy Handbook.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There's a feat in Dragon Compendium called Song of the Dead that makes any mind-affecting spell able to affect intelligent undead. It's a +0 metamagic, and it makes the spell count as a Necromancy spell regardless of its original school. Better for a spontaneous caster IMO since a spell prepared with this feat is no longer effective when used on living targets.

[Fynzmirs]

Hmm... I have totally forgotten about the Charm domain. But even if I gain acces to charm spells as a cleric, I will still be able to cast it only in the domain spell slot, right? Or is there a way to prepare your domain spells in normal spell slots?

Eldariel, I've already read both handbooks, but they are mainly about building pure necromancer. And I want to achieve a mix of necromancy and enchanting.

It seems that it is easier to obtain Diplomacy as a class-skill (for example by one level dip - which brings a question "to which class should I 1-dip?") and Desecrate (Arcane Disciple) as a wizard, than the whole line of enchantment spells as a cleric. But I may be wrong, correct me then.

Biffoniacus_Furiou, thanks. Interesting feat, I will consider taking it. But isn't it a +1 metamagic? And isn't there a more effective way to use enchantment spells on undead?

[Zaq]

You can take the Spontaneous Domain ACF (replacing spontaneous casting of Cure/Inflict) to spontaneously cast domain spells, which can let you cast them more often than you otherwise might.

HP refilling is usually best relegated to wands, anyway.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Biffoniacus_Furiou, thanks. Interesting feat, I will consider taking it. But isn't it a +1 metamagic? And isn't there a more effective way to use enchantment spells on undead?

That's right, I forgot the part about it only being +0 if you have a Slaymate nearby. Being able to rebuke/command undead to get low-HD minions like that is another reason to go Cleric or DN.

[ATHATH]

Yeah, a Divine Magician Spontaneous Domain Cleric going into Paragnostic Apostle seems like your best bet here. Keep in mind that class dips aren't the only way to add skills to your skill list.

[Anthrowhale]

In addition to Song of the Dead, the Mother Cyst feat seems appropriate: it gives you access to a necromancy-based dominate person as a level 4 spell and a necromancy based dominate monster as a level 7 spell.

[Fynzmirs]

Thank you all, I will now consider whether I would like to play arcane or divine characer (plain wiz or this cleric build). Anyway, I have one more question - which magic items should I prioritize? Also, I start with 2700gp, are there any good and cheap magic items that will somehow help my build?

[noob]

+1 Doomwarding warning arrow of blindsight?

[BlackOnyx]

You couldn't multiclass very much if you want to keep full Rebuke advancement...something like Paragnostic Apostle might work, or just plain Cleric going for skill points. So...your choice.

I'd very much agree. My current character (also a necromancer) is taking this route (Cloistered Cleric 7/Paragnostic Apostle 3 at the moment) and I've been enjoying it immensely. Potent spellcasting & fantastic skill point buy (10 per CC level as a human with Int 16).

The Necromancer domain (from Eberron) opens up access to command undead. Trickery domain gives you Bluff, Hide, and Disguise as class skills. (Divine magician, as suggested above, wouldn't be a bad route either.)

For affecting humans, I believe there is a Domination domain out there as well.

With the Paragnostic Apostle prc, one of the abilities you can choose from (up to 3 times throughout the 5 level progression) is called "See Through The Veil." Each time you take it, you get a +2 to your caster level when rebuking undead and a +1 on the DC for necromancy spells that affect undead (command undead included). I'd definitely recommend it.

Or is there a way to prepare your domain spells in normal spell slots?

The Domain Spontaneity feat from Complete Divine lets you burn a turn/rebuke attempt to exchange your prepared spell slots with spells from one of your domains. (You can take it multiple times for different domains, if you'd like.)

Anyway, I have one more question - which magic items should I prioritize? Also, I start with 2700gp, are there any good and cheap magic items that will somehow help my build?

Black Onyx is an important spell component if you plan on animating your own undead. (Especially if it's hard to find/legally purchase in your campaign setting.) Animate Dead (Cleric 3) requires one 25gp black onyx gem per hd of undead.

A disguise kit could also be useful, depending on who you meet with to get your undead.

[Fynzmirs]

I was also thinking about a bit more charm- and less undead- oriented build wich will rely heavily on metamagic. And I created something like this:

Human Necropolitan with 2 flaws
1 - Rogue 1 or Cloistered Cleric 1 (for skills) - Iron will, Mother cyst, Able lerner, Still spell
2 - Rog 1/Wiz 1 - Scribe scroll
3 - Rog 1/Wiz 2 - Extend spell
4 - Rog 1/Wiz 3
5 - Rog 1/Wiz 4
6 - Rog 1/Wiz 5 - (Undead) Leadership, Create wonderous item
7 - Rog 1/Wiz 5/Metaphysical Spell Shaper (for basically free metamagic as undead are immune to physical ability damage)
8 - Rog 1/Wiz 5/MSS 2 - Silent spell
9 - Rog 1/Wiz 5/MSS 2/Incantatrix (PGtF wersion) - Chain spell, Arcane thesis (charm person), ban Evocation
10 - Rog 1/Wiz 5/MSS 2/Incant 2
11 - Rog 1/Wiz 5/MSS 2/Incant 3
12 - Rog 1/Wiz 5/MSS 2/Incant 4 - Arcane thesis (command undead), any metamagic (maybe Heighten or Guided or Repeat)
13 - Rog 1/Wiz 5/MSS 2/Incant 5
14 - Rog 1/Wiz 5/MSS 2/Incant 6
15 - Rog 1/Wiz 5/MSS 2/Incant 7 - Forge Ring or something, Quicken spell
16 - Rog 1/Wiz 5/MSS 2/Incant 8
17 - Rog 1/Wiz 5/MSS 2/Incant 9
18 - Rog 1/Wiz 5/MSS 2/Incant 10 Easy metamagic (chain spell), Innate spell (see below)
19/20 - finish MSS or do a 2-dip or something (1-dip Mindbender and 3rd level of MSS seems to be good)

Innate spell - Silent, Still, Extended and Chain Charm person (up to 20 targets) once per round... good enough?

Alternatively - Arcane thesis (dominate monster), so I can cast silent, still, extended and chain dominate monster on up to 20 targets.

With this build I don't get any rebuking... but I get Silent, Still, Extended, Chain Command undead as 2nd level spell with 19th caster level, which means 20 uintelligent undead (HD doesn't matter) for about a month by just one 2nd level spell slot. Also cast spells as 19th level wizard, have some Incantrix abilities and a cohort or something. And +1d6 sneak attack.

Will it work? Is it a good build or am I missing something?

It will of course suck at fighting at low levels, but that's why I have charm person.

[Hellpyre]

Snip

When exactly are you going to try and take Necropolitan?

[Anthrowhale]

Iron Will can be acquired free from a visit to an Otyugh Hole.

You aren't really using Extend Spell.

You aren't really using Mother Cyst. A spontaneous cleric could use Mother Cyst to get access to Necrotic Domination at ECL 5 via Versatile Spellcaster + you have access to Turn/Rebuke undead from level 1. If you add the Spell domain, that provides access to Alternate Source Spell which allows you to use Arcane Thesis to great effect.

You have nothing special for the first 6 levels. Getting Uncanny Forethought or Abrupt Jaunt Conjurer would be pretty nice. Alternatively, use the level of cleric to get DMM[Persist] at level 1 and then alternate source spell at level 3.

Charm Person is not a very impressive effect at level 20.

Losing a level of casting for skills alone is not very compelling. If you really want to do that, you should consider at least getting a caster level jacking theurge out of it via Theurgic Specialist (Dragon #325). Beguiler may also be a reasonable choice for skill points.

You don't really need MSS/Incantrix for what you are trying to do---you could instead just take +0 metamagics like Invisible spell in combination with Arcane Thesis.

[Fynzmirs]

I will propably try becoming Necropolitan as soon as possible, as by 6th level I will have a Dread Necromancer cohort to watch out for me. And I will propably start with Disguise spell or Hat of Disguise as for my DM newly created Necropolitan looks almost as human (so you can disguise yourself with this spell).

I don't have even a slightest idea what Otyugh Hole is. And my DM propably too.

I wanted to use Extend spell with command undead for almost unlimited commanding abilities. But I think I will put it somewhere later anyway. And for my arcane thesis spells it doesn't cost me anything, so I can Extend them freerly, which is nice.

DMM[Persist] actually requires me to take Extend spell. Wouldn't DMM[Fell Animate] be better?

Maybe charm person isn't, but it basically gives me nearly impossible to detect by non-magical means (thanks to still and silent) charming effect on up to 20 targets at will. And it lasts 38 hours, which should be enough.

Caster Level may hurt, but is there a better way to get it back than by Theurgic Specialist? I mean, this feat requires me to be a specialist wizard, and that makes me quite upset. (Enchantment and Necromancy are must-haves, so is Abjuration; Conjuration will be great with high social skills just for Planar-binding everything on my way; I heard somewhere that one definitely shouldn't ban transmutation; illusion is a nice school to have, especially when I want to influence both living and undead - I must have something to disguise my undead if I want to negotiate; I already ban Evocation and it is the only thing I can ban).

MSS isn't necessary, but it gives me a free metamagic feat at 2nd level and a nice ability at 1st.

"Incantatrix & CO" enables me to chain any spell just for +1 spell adjustment. That means with Arcane thesis I can chain my thesis spells for free. Which means silent, still, extended and chain spells. Also it gives some abilities to support my spellcasting cohort and propably allied wizard (yeah, we will propably have another wizard hanging around for at lest a few levels). And as far I haven't found anything that gives me better spellcasting abilities for what I want to achieve.

Incatatrix also gives 4 bonus feats, another nice feature.

Becoming a high level cleric comes with responsibility I don't want to have. As I don't really need rebuking since 4th level I don't see why I should be one. My cohort will do all the rebuking, if that is really necessary. And will be propably better at this than a cleric, thanks to +Cha to undead commanding limits.

Also, the only Deity which finds acceptable what I do is the Evening Glory, (which anyway will be perfect). But I still don't like the idea of being deeply connected to the external source of power. My character prefers controlling others, not being controlled by some sort of extradimensional being. And I won't propably encounter god-controlling mind-affecting spells anytime soon.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

What about a True Necromancer?

It will let you be a wizard and a cleric(if I am not wrong, I am AFB(ooks).).

[Fynzmirs]

I've heard that True Necromancer is pretty bad.

My DM allowed Tome of Necromancy and retraining, so I'll propably go with

Human Necropolitan with two flaws

1 - Wizard 1 - Lost traditon (Cha)^{Bastards and Bloodlines}, Nonverbal Spell (for early levels, so I'll less likely end up being killed), Spell focus (Enchantment), A Feast Unknown^ToN
2 - Wiz 2
3 - Wiz 3 - Spell focus (Necromancy)
4 - Wiz 4
5 - Wiz 5 - WizBonusFeat: Create wonderous item
6 - Wiz 6 - Leadership, retraining Spell focus (enchantment) to a Path of Blood^ToN
7 - Widow Queen 1
8 - Widow Queen 2
9 - Widow Queen 3 - Greater Spell focus (Necromancy), retraining Nonverbal Spell to a Corpsecrafter^LM
10 - Master of the Seven Necromantic Mysteries 1
11 - Master of the Seven Necromantic Mysteries 2
12 - Widow Queen 4 - Necromantic Presence^LM (+4 turn resistance, ignored by me? sweet.)
13 - Widow Queen 5
14 - Widow Queen 6
15 - Widow Queen 7 - ???
16 - Widow Queen 8
17 - Master of the Seven Necromantic Mysteries 3
18 - Master of the Seven Necromantic Mysteries 4 - bonus feat: Feed the Dark Gods^ToN, ???
19 - Widow Queen 9
20 - Widow Queen 10

Epic level progression: Epic Widow Queen or Epic Wizard.

At level 20th:
Three types of spawns, some useful vampiric abilities, up to (charisma modifier) of ghouls, vampires and other undead. Rebuking as a 24th level cleric, without a loose of caster levels. Some small boosts to my undead. Ability to create nearly any undead via Feed the Dark Gods. But aside from Necromancy, nothing more.



As a side note - we will be having a quite unusual campaign. With two gaming groups, one "good" and one "evil" we will propably act as recurring villains. So keep that in mind.
Our team: dwarven paladin of tyranny, human warlock, half-drow ranger, human ninja. We don't have to worry about the lack of healer.
Good guys: dwarven barbarian, human wizard, elven bard, human druid + one I don't know about.
Third group will propably join our campaign in progress, they'll be "good" too.
As a minority we'll propably gain some benefits typical to Big Evil Guys, mostly ability to influence the flow of the campaign. So we can for example decide to look for some artifacts to make up for a difference at high levels. I'll propably try to collect some parts of the Ebony Skeleton from the Tome of Artifacts. And perhaps Orb of the Wight. Any other useful items?

Ok, so any suggestions? I have not yet decided wich feats to take at levels 15 and 18, so ideas are welcome. Quicken spell is always good idea, but perhaps there are better. Actually, I'm even considering Iron Will, as my Wisdom will propably be very low (6 or so) at the cost of 18 charisma and 16 intelligence. Any other ways to improve Will saving throws?

[Falontani]

oh boy I'm late to a necromancer party!

few thoughts: Artificer can do everything you've wanted via magic items, of course artificer can do literally everything.

Warlock oddly enough can do it as well. Charm + the dead walk gives you animate dead and charm monster at will.

Dread Necromancer with Mother Cyst can use dominate person/monster and stay with necromancy

Archivist will give you all the spells you want on a divine chassis

Death Master will give you more of an emphasis on necromancy

Sha'ir is a fun class as you are both an arcane spellcasting class and a divine spellcasting class allowing you to use a single class to enter into arcane/divine classes.

Some builds to consider: (not fully thought out)

Death Master 20, instead of a necropolitan become a vampire and use Mother Cyst. You are now a vampire lich with very high charisma, the dominating gaze of a vampire, the phylactery of a lich, and gaseous form/fast healing of a vampire. You are incredibly hard to actually destroy, you have huge amounts of necromantic abilities, and can still be socially active.

Wizard 1/Dread Necromancer 10/Ultimate Magus 9; You only get up to 8th level Dread Necro spellcasting, but you get to add some of the enchantment spells (like dominate person, charm person, and charm monster) to your dread necromancer list, get a few free metamagic feats, and 6th level wizard spells.

Bard 6/Lyric Thaumaturge 4/10 Sublime Chord gives you access to a large number of bard spells, all the important undead spells, as well as requiem and inspire courage; works as a necropolitan

If you go fiendbinder you can do a charismatic character that binds fiends and has them animate the dead for you. I remember there was a rhakshasa that you could bind that could create the dead for you. I believe that had SLA Create Undeads and Animate Dead.

The other builds are good, but dont forget to look at some odd ones! ^_^

[Fynzmirs]

Really, really thanks for the answer. Necromancy party keeps going, yay!

Artificer indeed can do anything, but it's just not this class which I want.

We already have one warlock and also this class doesn't have access to many useful necromantic powers...

Dread necromancer is a capable enchanter only at high levels, and I would prefer to go from enchanting to Necromancy, not the other way.

I've never seen a necromancer build basing on an Archivist, but I'll check it out later.

Death Master isn't "charming" enough. But if I were to play a standard necromancer, I'd propably choose this class.


I have to read about Sha'ir, because I've never heard of it.

Builds:
1. Nice one. But the same problem as with warlock - enchanting a bit too late. And LA for being a vampire really hurts. On the other hand, being a vampire spawn is... pathetic.

2. I'll have to ask my DM if DN and Wizard would have separate undead control pools according to his interpretation of rules. If not, I will be a bit poor necromancer (turning level 8, not so many HD of undead from animate dead). And a poor enchanter, with enchanting up to level 6.

3. This one is pretty interesting. I'll thing about it, but I'll have to ask myself whether singing feats my character theme.

4. Umm... a bit far-fetched, as for me. I mean I'd prefer to animate dead by myself. But it would be pretty interesting to add a few levels of it to epic character progression. It would have a nice flavour - powerful necromancer, after finally reaching end of his capabilities, forces other beings to further increase his power. Nice one.

What I like about this Widow Queen/MotSNM build is that it opens up a lot of interesting possibilities at higher levels, while also being okay at low levels. I mean using Feed the Dark Gods to create a large number of various undead, and then controlling them via powerful turning and Widow Queen abilities. I was also thinking about creating a custom Spell to bind my soul to a phylactery, effectively becoming a lich despite being already undead. And of course, creating intelligent undead means that I can try to just convince them into obedience. Which wouldn't be that hard being WQ, MotSNM and Charisma Wizard...

Also, ninth level of spells gives me Programmed Amnesia. Wish. Dominate monster. Genesis. Some nice things to have as a necromancer who slowly build his own empire.