Strength-Boosting Items - Crap?

[DarkKnightJin]

That's nice of them. Though as a Light Domain Cleric.. You kinda are the default pick for a weapon called "Lightbringer", obviously.
Still nice that they tossed you the Gauntlets as well, so you can make use of your new weapon, too.

[Azgeroth]

i think the biggest problem with the gloves of ogre strength in particular, is that everyone assumes they should go to the STR character..
(the belts which take you past 20 are definitely good for STR builds, unless your a very high level Barb about to get that +4)

assuming, you started with a 16 STR, your only getting a +1 (yes i know bounded accuracy, every +1 is awesome) making taking your next ASI in strength a lot less interesting, which means your not taking a second ASI in strength to hit 20..

there are of course niche cases where having your strength magically set is a boon, but equally it can be a curse, step into an anti-magic zone and suddenly you loose that STR, and if it is the SAD for the build, your screwed. that is a glaring weakness to be avoided.

where as if you give these to your rogue, or a monk, or even the wizard, they are infinitely more valuable.. (potentially turning -1 into +4)

[Sigreid]

i think the biggest problem with the gloves of ogre strength in particular, is that everyone assumes they should go to the STR character..
(the belts which take you past 20 are definitely good for STR builds, unless your a very high level Barb about to get that +4)

assuming, you started with a 16 STR, your only getting a +1 (yes i know bounded accuracy, every +1 is awesome) making taking your next ASI in strength a lot less interesting, which means your not taking a second ASI in strength to hit 20..

there are of course niche cases where having your strength magically set is a boon, but equally it can be a curse, step into an anti-magic zone and suddenly you loose that STR, and if it is the SAD for the build, your screwed. that is a glaring weakness to be avoided.

where as if you give these to your rogue, or a monk, or even the wizard, they are infinitely more valuable.. (potentially turning -1 into +4)

Well, it is part of the melee character's holy trinity of gauntlets, belt and hammer of thunderbolets for a juicy 30 strength.

[Mikal]

i think the biggest problem with the gloves of ogre strength in particular, is that everyone assumes they should go to the STR character..
(the belts which take you past 20 are definitely good for STR builds, unless your a very high level Barb about to get that +4)

assuming, you started with a 16 STR, your only getting a +1 (yes i know bounded accuracy, every +1 is awesome) making taking your next ASI in strength a lot less interesting, which means your not taking a second ASI in strength to hit 20..

there are of course niche cases where having your strength magically set is a boon, but equally it can be a curse, step into an anti-magic zone and suddenly you loose that STR, and if it is the SAD for the build, your screwed. that is a glaring weakness to be avoided.

where as if you give these to your rogue, or a monk, or even the wizard, they are infinitely more valuable.. (potentially turning -1 into +4)

Except that the rogue, monk, and wizard won't find them as valuable... because they don't give a crap about strength.
The Rogue uses finesse weapons or ranged due to sneak attack, and thus has a high dex.
The Monk weapons are all dex based, and thus has a high dex.
The Wizard casts spells, and cares about int, with the only official "weapon" mage being a bladesinger, so they too have a high dex.

So yes, they can turn a -1 to a +4... but they don't use that +4. As such, it's "infinitely better" on a build that will actually make use of it, such as a non hexblade blade pact warlock, a paladin, a ranger, cleric, or yes, fighter.

My personal preference is to give it to any str dependent characters such as fighter or barb first, until they get that primary attribute to 20, then pass it down to who would get the most utility out of it, such as the cleric who's focused on wisdom, paladin who focused on cha, etc, and, barring that, selling it for gold or trade for another item.

Or let the fighter/barb/paladin/other meleeist keep it, if they're searching for the 30 str trinity of items.

[alchahest]

Rogues and Monks don't hate strength, it enables better grapples.

Wizards are probably just happy to have anything at all in their strength saves.

[Mikal]

Rogues and Monks don't hate strength, it enables better grapples.

Wizards are probably just happy to have anything at all in their strength saves.

Grapple is mostly crap. Rogue grappling could be Sneak Attacking. Monks grappling could be attempting stuns or hitting multiple opponents.

A wizard could just get a ring or cloak of protection and raise all saves as well as AC by 1 for the same attunement cost. Especially since strength saves for spells are pretty much useless, and strength saves elsewhere a wizard should already be prepared to prevent via spells or proper planning.

I'm personally not in the camp of giving a decent magic item to someone that will hardly ever use it so they might take advantage of it in very rare circumstances when it can be used to better advantage elsewhere, including in trade for a better item or gold. And yes, I consider gold to be more useful than a magic item that isn't useful for any characters in the party, and I don't consider ogre power gauntlets at all useful for a pure classed wizard, even a bladesinger.

[Willie the Duck]

So, skills, feats, being able to increase ability scores by leveling, those are AD&D things? I suppose subclasses come from AD&D and of course, in the end, both 3.X and 5e are derivative of older editions, but I'm still not seeing its fingerprint as large here.

It probably matters whether you see things like the attribute points going up by leveling (or the stat/2 - 5 formula) as laying a bigger fingerprint than things like Wealth-By-Level expectations/Christmas Tree of magic items/the wealth treadmill and so forth. We could go back-and-forth on whether 5e skills are more like 2e or 3e or if feats are more like the 3e or 2e character creation options in more than just name. It's a rabbit hole we could go down if we wanted, but honestly it deserves its' own thread if we decide to.

But not entirely my point anyway. "That's how AD&D did it" isn't anymore valid than "That's how 3.5 (or any other edition) did it".

Except that the OP clearly stated, "The problem is they don't 'boost' anymore," indicating that it is a problem that they don't work like they used to--for those 2 editions where they did act like that (I'm assuming 4e was the same as 3e), ignoring the (depending on how you slice it; OD&D, Holmes, B/X, BECMI, AD&D, 2e) 6 editions where they worked as they do in 5e.

He did then go on and describe actual functional reasons, and that's what we should be focusing on, I suppose.

Frankly, I think it is great that a single magic item find could allow a fighter (ex.) to focus on feats, Con, mental stats to round out their character concept, and so on and so forth, all for the cost of one attunement slot. If it were simply an add-on, then said fighter would still be compelled to put all their ASIs into Strength. By making it a simple replacement, it give them the freedom not to feel that they have to.

On the other hand...

What do you guys think of turning these items back into a 3.5-esque +2/+3/+6 bonus? I know numbers in 5E are lower, but would this un-balance the game?

No. I do not think it will break the game wide open if you were to make that change. I do think you should be aware of what you are incentivizing. I suspect it will mean that you will not see very many fighters picking up Skilled or Ritual Caster or +2 Wis with their ASIs. But if that's what you want, I do not think it will in any way make the game unbalanced. Play the game you want to play.

[Joe the Rat]

I look at these with a page out of Feat design - Having a feature - ribbon or otherwise - that is useful to someone who already has one or more of the listed benefits.

For the strength items, this is what I'm using:

Gauntlets of Ogre Power: Give attuned wearer Str 19; Unarmed strikes (Punches) do 1d4+str damage.
Belt of Giant Strength (Any): Doubles carrying capacity of attuned wearer. (I'd also allow the monk to deflect boulders, but I'm big on over-the-top cinematics).


As a point to all old editions, when these first appeared, there wasn't an easy way to raise attributes - multiple wishes were involved - so raising any attribute was a big deal (let's not discuss cavaliers). With automatic and open-ended stat-boosting (3-4), rising numbers were part of the equations. A certain amount of stat boosting was assumed (and could easily be exceeded by builds). That bit was deliberately left out here.

If you really think these things need a bit more oomph, an option I've seen here before* is having the items switch to a +2 for anyone of equal or greater ability. Outside the belts, everything here is a 19er - lowest standard rung from the numbers edition. Your item becomes a wearable ioun stone.

* - Apologies, I do not have the name or thread on hand.

[Pex]

That's nice of them. Though as a Light Domain Cleric.. You kinda are the default pick for a weapon called "Lightbringer", obviously.
Still nice that they tossed you the Gauntlets as well, so you can make use of your new weapon, too.

Coincidence. I had no idea about Lightbringer before the campaign started. The DM decided to run that adventure as an intro before starting the group, so he didn't know there would be a Light Domain cleric. It is a Forgotten Realms world, but my character is from Mulhorand worshiping Ra not Lathander. Still, there were good roleplay opportunities involved in later adventures with respect to Ra and Lathander worship. In character I view it as Divine Providence. We've been playing the adventures from Yawning Portal and a number of them involve a Sun deity or Lathander worshipers. I haven't read the book. Out of character I didn't get the impression the DM designed things to incorporate the Sun theme or Lathander on purpose because of my character but rather the modules themselves are written that way. If he did major kudos to him.

The DM allows Lightbringer to act as a Divine Focus, so I don't need War Caster. Such a nice DM.

For the peanut gallery, yes, I am capable of liking the DMs I play with.

[Luccan]

No. I do not think it will break the game wide open if you were to make that change. I do think you should be aware of what you are incentivizing. I suspect it will mean that you will not see very many fighters picking up Skilled or Ritual Caster or +2 Wis with their ASIs. But if that's what you want, I do not think it will in any way make the game unbalanced. Play the game you want to play.

I actually think it's ok because (on the right characters) stat boosting items can give you roughly the same stat bonus as stat setting items. If your 16 Str is boosted to 18, that means the item can still be useful to you later (especially since you may never get a better version, this being 5e) and you still don't have to bump it up right now. Whereas an item that sets your Str to 19 will be useless to you if you ever get your Strength up to 20. Yes, you can give it to other characters, but they probably have their own items they want to attune to.

[smcmike]

I think it's a great way to make those magic items feel like magic items created by someone in the world rather than just removable power boosts you're probably going to trade for an upgrade.

This is why I like them in this edition. A Belt of Magic Strength should make you Magically Strong, not provide a stackable strength increase. There is something much more satisfying about specific (non-stacking) effects. The Wizard makes himself a pair of magic gloves, and now he can wrestle ogres.

I do think they could be improved with ribbon abilities, like grappling or unarmed effects. Also, limited use or use-per-day items are cool, and would work well for strength, particularly for the non-strength user. I like the idea of a rogue who normally is average in strength, but has found a magic belt that lets him do something crazy every once in a while.

[Sigreid]

This is why I like them in this edition. A Belt of Magic Strength should make you Magically Strong, not provide a stackable strength increase. There is something much more satisfying about specific (non-stacking) effects. The Wizard makes himself a pair of magic gloves, and now he can wrestle ogres.

I do think they could be improved with ribbon abilities, like grappling or unarmed effects. Also, limited use or use-per-day items are cool, and would work well for strength, particularly for the non-strength user. I like the idea of a rogue who normally is average in strength, but has found a magic belt that lets him do something crazy every once in a while.

Wouldn't it be cool if in addition to the strength score you got the carry capacity and could wrestle as if you were the size category of the creature you got the strength of? There would be something very mythic about a fighter with a magic belt that let him wrestle giants.

[ad_hoc]

I actually think it's ok because (on the right characters) stat boosting items can give you roughly the same stat bonus as stat setting items. If your 16 Str is boosted to 18, that means the item can still be useful to you later (especially since you may never get a better version, this being 5e) and you still don't have to bump it up right now. Whereas an item that sets your Str to 19 will be useless to you if you ever get your Strength up to 20. Yes, you can give it to other characters, but they probably have their own items they want to attune to.

This sounds like a Monty Haul campaign.

There is nothing wrong with playing like that but a consequence of doing so is that many magic items are going to feel mundane because the group has so many to begin with.

I can't even imagine running out of attunement slots. That's 13 permanent attunement items in a party of 4. Many magic items don't require attunement so we're looking at over 20 permanent magic items. By the time that happens then Str 19 isn't a big deal, but then half the magic items in the book wouldn't be a big deal either.

[darkrose50]

Some items should give a bonus, some items should have a flat attribute number, and some items should do either/or.

Lovely Hair Ribbon: Grants the wearer a 12 Charisma, or a +1 to Charisma

[darkrose50]

This sounds like a Monty Haul campaign.

There is nothing wrong with playing like that but a consequence of doing so is that many magic items are going to feel mundane because the group has so many to begin with.

I can't even imagine running out of attunement slots. That's 13 permanent attunement items in a party of 4. Many magic items don't require attunement so we're looking at over 20 permanent magic items. By the time that happens then Str 19 isn't a big deal, but then half the magic items in the book wouldn't be a big deal either.

One of the most entertaining aspects of DMing for me is watching how a party will divvy up magical treasure, and who would want what item. Often the items themselves are not powerful, and just add character. In one game I ran a bedroll of comfort was extremely popular in the group (one person would sleep in it, one would turn into a wolf and sleep at the feet, and another was cursed into the body of a pixie, and would sleep on-top).

A stone that warms soup, a pair of socks that always keep your feet dry, a spoon that makes anything taste of honey . . ..

[MxKit]

Grapple is mostly crap. Rogue grappling could be Sneak Attacking. Monks grappling could be attempting stuns or hitting multiple opponents.

You can do some major **** while you are grappling. Monks especially have an insane amount of speed, can run up walls, and take minimal to no fall damage. Rogues do usually have something better to be doing with their action, but giving a character another possibility in their arsenal is never a bad thing.

A wizard could just get a ring or cloak of protection and raise all saves as well as AC by 1 for the same attunement cost.

They can't in campaigns where you can't just go to magic item markets or pick and choose what magic items you're going to find over the course of the adventure. I'm aware that AL handles this very differently from most non-AL games, but there's a definite distinction to be made there. In fact, your next paragraph is very dependant on whether or not you're talking about an AL game:

I'm personally not in the camp of giving a decent magic item to someone that will hardly ever use it so they might take advantage of it in very rare circumstances when it can be used to better advantage elsewhere, including in trade for a better item or gold. And yes, I consider gold to be more useful than a magic item that isn't useful for any characters in the party, and I don't consider ogre power gauntlets at all useful for a pure classed wizard, even a bladesinger.

1)Your entire party should be in argeement on this, though. If your Monk wants the gauntlets and the rest of the party doesn't mind if they get them, you're not really the sole arbiter at the table going "no, I'm selling them because you won't use them and don't need them, I'd rather we have the gold." This is a bit different in AL, but there's an even wilder discrepancy there: If you received the gauntlets yourself, you can choose what to do with them, period, but if someone else received them and a third person wants them, you get absolutely zero say in that potential trade whatsoever.

2)At later levels especially, most characters are absolutely not going to be in need of the gold you'd get for the gauntlets, especially outside of AL. In AL and at earlier levels, you're going to be more gold-hungry, but again you run into the problem that if anyone else in your party got the gauntlets rather than you, you're not going to get the gold from them either.

3)Again, most games don't have a magic item market or systems in place for you to trade for the specific item you want, so "in trade for a better item" is hardly ever going to be a thing outside of AL.

[Lord Vukodlak]

One of the most entertaining aspects of DMing for me is watching how a party will divvy up magical treasure, and who would want what item. Often the items themselves are not powerful, and just add character. In one game I ran a bedroll of comfort was extremely popular in the group (one person would sleep in it, one would turn into a wolf and sleep at the feet, and another was cursed into the body of a pixie, and would sleep on-top).

A stone that warms soup, a pair of socks that always keep your feet dry, a spoon that makes anything taste of honey . . ..

Our party stumbled upon a what was essentially refrigerator it was deep in a dungeon, and weighed a little more then a ton. A Dwarven Artisan went insane and died trying to complete this item his ghost haunted that area of the ruins ever since. We finished the item for him to put his spirit to rest.

Then we set to work figuring out exactly what we'd need to get it out of the dungeon and into the Inn the party was based out off. "Enlarge Reduce" to make it lighter. A couple Dimension Door to get it out of the dungeon. (as the duration of Enlarge Reduce wasn't nearly long enough and we didn't want to risk it returning to normal on a narrow stairway above an abyss). Then a wagon and some mules to pull it back to town and another reduce to get it into the kitchen.

We found it at level four, and came back for it at level seven. The DM was a little surprise we remembered and came back for it.