Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCI

[Darrin]

Many thanks, Viscount. I logged in tonight with the intention to throw together a table, but you beat me to it.

My HM goes to Gar Hogchoker, which almost earns it just on the name alone, but what it can do... that came from a pretty warped corner of a seriously demented mind. (In other words, my kind of mind.)

[Long_shanks]

HM to Gar as well. That is a masterpiece.

[danielxcutter]

Same here for Gar as HM.

[Karl Aegis]

Noticed something recently that I didn't notice while judging. Should I edit it in? No points are going to be changing due to my negligence.

Spoiler

Show

Maxwell the Magnificent doesn't have a deity listed so he doesn't match his deity's alignment for his Arcane Disciple. This has a cascading effect on the build where he doesn't have knowledge of a summon monster spell for Nar Demonbinder, he has some empty spells known for Fatemaker and, ultimately, his build doesn't work.

[The Viscount]

Can I just say that I actually really like all the entries that came out of this round? Every single one had something to catch my interest, whether crunch or fluff.

Also, shockingly little class overlap this time around. Hadn't quite realized just how diverse the entries were before seeing them all compiled into a table like that.

You're right about that. As someone mentioned Fatemaker doesn't have much in the way of focus, but it means that it allows many paths to entry. The only real overlap we saw was marshal, which was the real Vizzini choice for this round, or really any round with SF Diplo.

Noticed something recently that I didn't notice while judging. Should I edit it in? No points are going to be changing due to my negligence.

Spoiler

Show

Maxwell the Magnificent doesn't have a deity listed so he doesn't match his deity's alignment for his Arcane Disciple. This has a cascading effect on the build where he doesn't have knowledge of a summon monster spell for Nar Demonbinder, he has some empty spells known for Fatemaker and, ultimately, his build doesn't work.

The Great Mother has generously granted you access to the summoner domain.

The Great Mother is mentioned in the playtips, and has a CE alignment. Checks out.

[Karl Aegis]

You're right about that. As someone mentioned Fatemaker doesn't have much in the way of focus, but it means that it allows many paths to entry. The only real overlap we saw was marshal, which was the real Vizzini choice for this round, or really any round with SF Diplo.





The Great Mother is mentioned in the playtips, and has a CE alignment. Checks out.

Hmmmm. I don't see a source for The Great Mother with both Summoner Domain and CE alignment. I thought the newest version was the LE one in Lords of Madness with the Hatred Domain.

[The Viscount]

Interesting. Deities are always kind of spotty.
The Great Mother is CE all through Complete Divine, and in Fiendish Codex I (published later) the Great Mother is in the Abyss, which would require CE alignment.

[jdizzlean]

I'm not ignoring disputes, but once again as it seems i have an essay to read/write for each one, it's going to take longer.

I'm also fighting an epic cold.

I'll try to get to it before this weekend, I may be posting on them individually instead of all at once..

[jdizzlean]

Memyadu:

a comma in a sentence does not represent an entirely different meaning in the subject of said sentence. In this case, it's simply telling you that you can pay it off w/ 1 prepared spell of the same level OR with multiple lesser leveled prepared spells that add up to a higher level.

no score change.

Maxwell:

Originality: you're not the only human, you're not the only mother cyst (and horrible cheese actually gets penalized, not awarded points)
Saves: fair enough, +.25
WRT: I'm not part of the "omg WRT breaks the game" gang. You do nothing to boost your initiative w/in the build, you do nothing to boost your DEX score to help that out either. (equipment dependencies to do so would likewise also be a penalty) So all you're doing is hoping that your init roll "might" help someone else out. I don't see that as beneficial when its very circumstantial.
Elegance/Skills: I'm penalizing you for not BUILDING a character the entire way. You set out knowing where you were going with this character, but you chose to only invest in certain things when it was most beneficial to you, rather then BUILD a character throughout. I've been quite persistent on this throughout all my judging's.
UofSI: no score change.
Summons: a summoned creature isn't friendly to you, SNA explicitly states that creatures summoned are neutral. Summon Monster doesn't state that they are friendly or not, you're assuming they are, I'm saying they're neutral...

Power. 3.75, total 14.75

[Thurbane]

Has Acolyte of the Ego ever been an ingredient, or requested?

[edit] Never mind, found it... http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...-Playground-LX [/edit]

[Karl Aegis]

Nah, it's around the time we do a Complete Warrior class again like Ravager or something bad like that. Book is full of bad.

D-do I have a bunch of disputes lined up for me? It is my first time judging.

[Venger]

Nah, it's around the time we do a Complete Warrior class again like Ravager or something bad like that. Book is full of bad.

D-do I have a bunch of disputes lined up for me? It is my first time judging.

That would be a blast. Personally, I prefer non-casting ingredients, since I don't have to block off huge swaths of the game as potential ingredients in my build.

Since 3 chefs said they had no disputes, it probably won't be that many, but it's usual to have at least some. If you get disputes, don't take it personally, it's all part of the process. Is it really your first time judging? It doesn't show.

[Karl Aegis]

That would be a blast. Personally, I prefer non-casting ingredients, since I don't have to block off huge swaths of the game as potential ingredients in my build.

Since 3 chefs said they had no disputes, it probably won't be that many, but it's usual to have at least some. If you get disputes, don't take it personally, it's all part of the process. Is it really your first time judging? It doesn't show.

Yeah, I've only been in one competition before. I had the wizard entry in the Arboreal Guardian round when I really, really should have entered with Eberron Adept instead because I really only used the Adept Spell List, but with Teleport. It was... embarassing. A little.

[Venger]

Yeah, I've only been in one competition before. I had the wizard entry in the Arboreal Guardian round when I really, really should have entered with Eberron Adept instead because I really only used the Adept Spell List, but with Teleport. It was... embarassing. A little.

do you mean magewright, or does eberron have special rules for adepts? I forget.

[Karl Aegis]

do you mean magewright, or does eberron have special rules for adepts? I forget.

They can choose a Cleric Domain like Plant Domain so you can cast Entangle for qualifying for Arboreal Guardian.

[Heliomance]

More disputes!

optimizing the entire build to blow ego manifestation through the roof is hilarity. However you’re not really using or optimizing anything else about fatemaker.

the elegance score i can forgive. The power score is legit too. But as far as use of si, i couldn't disagree more.

I synergized being able to cast in light armor, and chose a light armor that makes escape artist checks awesome.

I have multiple attacks per round, which takes great advantage of sneak attack. Craven expands that to huge bonus damage. The escape attack skill trick expands that even further.

Take charge appeal lends strength to charisma casting as well as marshal auras.

I can extend confidence of the fated for extra rounds with the use of the battlebred feat, not just a single roll. That's the best exploitation of that ability of all of the builds submitted.

Draconic claw allows me to cast and attack every round.

I optimize one of fatemakers little appreciated skills through the roof.

Not to mention the righteous might optimization.

Every single class feature is optimized as much as possible.

-----

you are correct that i didn't make it obvious what power sigils were chosen. It's aesh and uur. I forget what power word that is, probably because it stinks more than the pluses from the induvidual sigils. You can see that aesh was chosen in the raw strength score stacking table near the bottom. But it is tucked away.

gar hogchoker disputes!

karl aegis:

originality: 2
i can't even believe this is a thing. I guess that counts for something.

why the dismal score then?

karl aegis and jdizzlean

elegance: 1
crane clan human and illumian are two distinct races.

let me ask you a question, can a drow elf take the elf dilettante feat? Why or why not?

I ask because illumians are as human as a drow is elf.

humans are the dominant race in oriental adventures, as they are in the player’s handbook. In the featured campaign setting of rokugan, they rule the mighty emerald empire, though they are the youngest race of that young world. The humans of rokugan group themselves into seven major clans, each tracing its ancestry to one of the kami (great spirits) who fell to earth, cast out by their father the moon. The members of these clans share a divine bloodline and a strong sense of heritage and identity. Certain traits and tendencies, from physical characteristics to particular aptitudes and social roles, define each clan.

humanoid (human): Illumians are humanoid creatures with the human subtype.

with the printing of races of destiny, 'human' became a subtype shared by many races, similar to 'elf' and 'goblinoid' and many others.

From races of destiny alone we have illumians, mongrelfolk, sea kin, sharakim, skulk, and underfolk all share the humanoid (human) type and subtype. All of these races, as well as the phb human, qualify for anything that has a race prerequisite of human. All of these races are variant humans, just like the core monster manual has variant elf races, all of which qualify for anything that has a race prerequisite of elf. With the printing of races of destiny, 'human' became a subtype shared by many races, similar to 'elf' and 'goblinoid' and many others.

these limitations mean that many options available in this book are off limits to such races. At the dm’s discretion, halfhuman and humanlike races can be grouped together with humans as humanoids with the human subtype (rather than their own subtype). this means that such races qualify as human for the purpose of meeting a prerequisite for a feat or prestige class, for activating a human-only magic item, for adjudicating effects that treat humans differently from other races, and the like.

being born into the crane clan with a human subtype should be enough to be treated as a crane clan person. It's not a distinct race, it's a condition that can be applied to humans. See more text in oa about how the poor don't really get to claim to be from a clan.

clan designations, however, mean little to the masses of peasants and outcasts, lower-class humans whose only loyalty to the clans is in the form of the taxes they pay to
the lords who rule and protect them. A heimin (peasant)
farmer may live in lion lands, send tithes of food to lion
castles, and rely on the lion army for protection, but he is
not a lion—he is heimin.

karl aegis

escape artist is not a class skill.

what was gar's draconic heritage again?

skills bounce around with no pattern or predictability.

are you supposed to apply skill ranks in a pattern?

etherial is not a dragon.

it is. Draconomicon p.179

the draconic heritage feat benefits are found in races of the dragon p.103. Notably they include: Ethereal, no energy type associated with breath weapon, escape artist as a class skill if you have draconic heritage and if you have draconic legacy you get the following spells added to spells known: Blink, dimensional anchor, see invisibility

what are these weapons are the top and two weapon fighting at the bottom.

can you rephrase?

that's not what confidence of the fated says it does.

confidence of the fated (su): Once per day, a fatemaker of 2nd level or higher can add her class level as a morale bonus on any single attack roll, weapon damage roll, saving throw, or skill check. At 7th level and higher, she can do this twice per day, but only once in any given round.

gar took the battlebred feat.

when you are subject to an effect that grants a morale bonus, the duration is extended by 2 rounds. If you have the rage class feature, the duration of your rage is extended by 2 rounds.

it's all a confusing mess. I am ready to pull my hair out.

what else is confusing you? We can get this score up.

power: 1
to be frank, your gimmick doesn't work. Escape artist: Squeezing into a tight space requires at least a minute.

rules compendium p.53

quick escape
quickly escaping from rope bindings, manacles, or other
restraints (except a grappler) takes only 5 rounds of work.
Escaping from a net or an entangling spell with the quick
escape option is a standard action. Escaping from a grapple
or pin with the quick escape option is a move action.
Squeezing through a tight space takes half the time that
it normally would.

1 minute = 10 6 second rounds. Add 10 to the dc to bring the time down to 5 rounds. Add 10 to the dc to bring the time down to 2.5 rounds. Add 10 to the dc to bring the time down to 1.25 rounds. Add 10 to the dc to bring the time down to .625 rounds. That's dc 120. Which gar can make, in a what is likely to be ruled as a full round action. And then they can use the slipping past skill trick to bring it down to a move action.

Even if you for some reason rule that you can only add 10 to your dc once, that is only 5 rounds to get inside someone. And gar has access to invisibility and making an escape artist check to squeeze through a tight space is not a combat action.

even if it didn't, you're in your target's square and provoke an attack of opportunity for trying to activate a spell-like ability. You.. Have no spell-like abilities that i recognize that can be quickened.

are you sure about that?

ego manifestation (sp): At 10th level, a fatemaker's internal confidence and ego can be made physically manifest, increasing her size and power. This effect is the equivalent of the righteous might spell (caster level equals class level), except that the fatemaker doesn't gain damage reduction, but instead gains a +4 bonus on intimidate checks. She can use this ability once per day.

that is the spell like ability.

use of secret ingredient: 1
you have it on your sheet. Beyond using it for sneak attack, you don't use it for anything else.

i could not possibly disagree more. Gar is capable of using the si capstone in a way that literally no other build can. Gar optimized the confidence of the fated to last multiple rounds. Gar has multiple attacks per round and craven, so he kicks butt at sneak attacking. Gar has draconic claw, which allows a swift action attack whenever he casts a standard action spell. And he needs to cast spells to set himself up to destroy his nemeses from the inside.

elemental smiting is the feat that zari takes. She takes it at level 18 where it is more than likely she will be able to qualify for the feat due to it having an equipment restriction. The feat is very powerful for zari, but understandably hard to fit onto an iron chef character due to the equipment requirement.

Both of the skill rank numbers are typos only. Level 1 should be 4 like the rest of the skills and at level 20 it should be 23.

The soulborn level is there because in her backstory the fated teaches her about her lineage and trains her to embrace it.
Mechanically speaking, lasher taken here and given those few levels enhances her power greatly for while she is leveling her fatemaker levels, but could not be taken before fatemaker as fatemaker gives her proficiency with the whip.

Finally i don't take much mechanical power from fatemaker, but i try to keep the theme of the class throughout the build as there isn't really much to fatemaker other than it's lore and theme.

notably, the feat dark speech does not give you the dark unity ability...

...as noted above, you don't actually have the keystone of your build: Dark unity.

while the feats section in bovd only provides a fairly minimal list of what dark speech can do, it explicitly calls back to chapter 2, where it's clear that dark unity is a part of dark speech (see page 33 of bovd). Furthermore, on subsequent reprintings of dark speech (including elder evils, which is the latest published 3.5 content to include the feat), dark unity was explicitly listed in the feat description as one of dark speech's powers (see elder evils, p12). I included bovd as the source material because it provides the most detailed explanation of hive minds and dark unity, but as the book is 3.0 content, even if you do not believe that the feat as written in bovd includes the ability, it certainly does in elder evils, which takes precedence.

originality: My question regarding originality was how i was evaluated since you didn't say anything about my build. You just said "lol"

wrt: You still don't seem to understand how wrt actually works. If my initiative is higher than someone else's and i want to use wrt on them, then this is detrimental.

Once more, an example:

Party rogue rolls a 17 initiative. Maxwell gets a 10.

1) party rogue acts on a 17 and takes her actions
2) maxwell acts on a 10 and initiates wrt
3) party rogue's initiative count changes to 9, and she acts again

wrt is beneficial for helping people who do better in initiative than you do. If you try to help someone who you already beat in initiative, you do not grant them extra actions.

So if my initiative is low, i am penalized, but if i raised it, then i would also be penalized? Again, what course of action leads to not being penalized?

Skills: You did not address my dispute. Once more: You penalized me for taking skills when they became class skills. This is both unavoidable and not illegal. How is it possible for one to avoid this penalty?

Summons: yes they are summons do whatever you tell them. This is a very basic rule. If you deducted points from my build under this erroneous belief, then you must restore them.

Aside from my character not using the summon nature's ally spells (he uses the summon monster spells, as clearly explained in the build writeup and playtips) sna monsters obey your orders also

there is nothing in the text of either spell saying they are "neutral" in attitude toward the summoner.

...dammit, GITP. Because I originally posted MORE DISPUTES in capitals, it's gone through and stripped out almost every capital from the entire post. Ugh.

[Karl Aegis]

Spoiler: Gar Hogchoker:

Show

Races don't have mechanical prerequisites. You choose your race and that's that. I'm not going to entertain the idea you must first be a humanoid(human) before you get born into the Crane Clan. You get born into the Crane Clan as a Crane Clan Human or Human - Crane Clan. Asking me questions on your build doesn't help your judge because you're the one that's supposed to be presenting the build.
You didn't have a source for Draconic Heritage when I was judging your entry. I'm not going to retroactively give you points because you sourced it at least a month after the deadline. I'm not going to give points for typos, either. It's up to you to make sure your entry is correct and readable before judging is finished.
Confidence of the Fated still only applies to one check. You have have it last a week on a single Craft check for all I care. Forcing the morale bonus to last another 2 rounds doesn't change the fact that it only applies to a single check.
Escape Artist takes 30 seconds for every 5 feet you need to get to the other side for a DC 40 check. When you're done with the Escape Artist check you're on the other side of the obstacle. So it takes you 10 minutes to get through the 100 feet of a horse's digestive system. You are on the other side of the horse now. At no point do the rules say you are allowed to activate a spell-like ability during your Escape Artist check. This is before we get to the fact that most monsters do not have the length of their digestive system in their stat block or if they have digestive systems at all. There is no Quick Escape-Quick Escape-Quick Escape ad infinum to increase the DC to get through quicker. It happens once.
You don't meet the minimum caster level to quicken your spell-like ability.
This is before we get to the fact that you take the 4th level substitution level for Dragonblood Sorceror without listing it and changing the 7th level substitution level for Dragonblood Sorceror to Draconic Sorceror. Your build is so full of errors and typos I can't give you a good score.
Ultimately, you get a failure to qualify for the secret ingredient as what most influenced your score.

Spoiler: The Fated Zari

Show

In the future make sure there are no typos in your write-up.

Spoiler: Rattenfanger Von Hameln

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Please use updated 3.5 Edition content when available. Please don't use 3.0 Edition content when you know there is an updated version in 3.5 Edition. The updated version let's you make a suggestion to a swarm you already control which isn't particularly useful and breaks your concentration on the Summon Swarm ability.

[Heliomance]

Doop de doop

The updated version let's you make a suggestion to a swarm you already control which isn't particularly useful and breaks your concentration on the Summon Swarm ability.

OK, I'm sorry, this is just not correct. I'm worried now that there's a fundamental misunderstanding of what some of these abilities do and what actions are required here at play.

"The updated version let's you make a suggestion to a swarm you already control which isn't particularly useful..."

1. Yes, it is extremely useful. A hivemind is significantly more powerful than a standard swarm. Among other things, a hivemind bestows an Intelligence and Charisma on each individual member of the swarm. This is big for a lot of reasons:

---1A. In addition to the suggestion built into the Dark Unity power, it means that you can use diplomacy to influence your swarm to act far beyond what Summon Swarm would ordinarily allow. (By level 12, when his Aura of Confidence goes online, von Hameln is guaranteed to roll at least 25 on a diplomacy check without a single spell or magic item, meaning he can convert neutral parties to friendly as a full round action... which is within the bounds of what he can do while under Swift Concentration).

---2A. It allows your swarm to benefit from things like Aura of Confidence.

---3A. It makes each individual member of your swarm intelligent enough to take distinct actions such as Aid Another. Even if he stops with a single use of Dark Unity, that's 100 potential Aid Another checks by adjacent foes. (And of course there's no great reason for him to stop with a single use of Dark Unity...)

"...and breaks your concentration on the Summon Swarm ability."

2. No, it does NOT break concentration on Summon Swarm. These abilities are intended for use out of combat, where Swift Concentration can be used once per minute (Complete Scoundrel p84), giving plenty of freedom to use Dark Speech to apply a hivemind to chunks of 100 insects or other vermin at a time, another action to restore off the Constitution loss, and then still more to attempt to sway their opinions... all without giving up on concentration.

So again, Rattenfanger von Hameln's actions look something like this:

STEP 1: Use a summon swarm ability to summon a small swarm out of combat.
STEP 2: Activate Swift Concentration and use Dark Unity to convert 100 members of that swarm into a hivemind, granting each member an Intelligence of 7.
STEP 3: Continue concentrating on the swarm for a minute while Swift Concentration refreshes.
STEP 4: Repeat as many times as you are comfortable with. By using multiple uses of Dark Unity to make these all into a larger and larger hivemind, the actual Intelligence and Charisma goes up significantly, eventually granting skill points, feats and possibly even spells.
STEP 5: Active Swift Concentration to cast restoration, healing off the ability damage you took.
STEP 6: Continue concentration on the swarm for a minute while Swift Concentration refreshes.
STEP 7: Make diplomacy checks to convert the hivemind to become as friendly as possible.
STEP 8: Go about your day, maintaining concentration except as needed and surrounded by your small buzzing hyper-intelligent hivemind that is ready to defend and assist you.

In combat, you will already have used your summon swarm and Dark Unity abilities, so you will not need to do so again. From there you can either mostly focus on concentrating on your swarm, or you can concentrate for a round, use Swift Concentration for a round, then drop concentration and enjoy two more rounds of your superintelligent and extremely friendly spiders, centipedes, beetles and rats aiding you before they disperse while you can act freely. You should have enough uses of Summon Swarm to do it all over again before your next combat.

As for "not particularly useful," I'm not even going into the cheesier usages of hiveminds (though if you want me to show you how to use Rattenfanger von Hameln to turn a swarm of locusts into an 87th-level sorcerer without any adjustments to the build and minimal magic item investment, I can), but if you can't figure out a way to make going into battle with hundreds of small super friendly allies with distinct actions useful even with me mentioning Aid Another multiple times, I'm not really sure what else to say.

[Karl Aegis]

Spoiler: Rattenfanger Von Hameln

Show

The Summon Swarm ability doesn't summon 100 individual members of a swarm. It summons a swarm. Turning 100 members into a hivemind separates them from the swarm. They are no longer part of your summoned swarm. They are individuals in a hivemind. The spell has ended for those particular creatures. They get sent back to where they came from. Now you have a swarm with less members. Less swarmy. It doesn't work.

Being 3.0 content with an updated version printed in 3.5, you are vulnerable to similar abilities. Someone can dump a bag of rats on you, use whirlwind attack and great cleave their way to victory. You already have a bag of spiders or flying beetles or centipedes dumped on you. You get great cleaved to death. They can take an extra move action with 3.0 haste and get you. There was a reason there was an edition change. Things were ridiculous. Please use the updated version.

[Darrin]

This doesn't involve my entry, but I have used hiveminds in Iron Chef before. (Nobody asked for my rules expertise, but I thought I'd throw it in anyway, because... interwebs is full of tubes.)

The rules for how they are created and how they function are... well, murky. Let me tackle your second point first:

Being 3.0 content with an updated version printed in 3.5, you are vulnerable to similar abilities. Someone can dump a bag of rats on you, use whirlwind attack and great cleave their way to victory. You already have a bag of spiders or flying beetles or centipedes dumped on you. You get great cleaved to death. They can take an extra move action with 3.0 haste and get you. There was a reason there was an edition change. Things were ridiculous. Please use the updated version.

That is not possible, and you're confusing the issue by insisting that the Elder Evils version of Dark Speech somehow trumps the entirety of the BoVD version. It doesn't. The complete rules for hive minds only appear in BoVD. There is no 3.5 version of the hive mind rules in Fiendish Codex or Elder Evils. So the only 3.5 sources we have for "Dark Unity" essentially force you to refer to a 3.0 source to get the hive mind rules. This isn't really a problem, though, as the DMG informs us that all previous 3.0 materials are still valid with some "minor adjustments". The 3.5 versions of Dark Speech/Dark Unity update the feat to 3.5, but I don't see any indication that they are replacing or superceding the hivemind rules from BoVD.

If you insist that the 3.5 versions actually *DO* supercede the BoVD rules, then forming a hivemind becomes ridiculously simple, as there is no longer any "100 creature" limit. As soon as you invoke Dark Unity then *boom* the entire swarm becomes a hivemind. You then have two possible results: 1) the hivemind is an 87th-level Sorcerer with an extremely pointed interest in making sure you maintain your concentration or 2) the hivemind is useless because there are no rules to determine its abilities.

You're insisting that the 3.0 rules for hiveminds are invalid. But the 3.5 sources themselves say Dark Unity is still possible. The rules for determining how the hivemind works is in a 3.0 source. The DMG says we can still use 3.0 sources. But you are saying we can't. If that were true, why would the designers even bother to include Dark Unity as an option?

The Summon Swarm ability doesn't summon 100 individual members of a swarm. It summons a swarm. Turning 100 members into a hivemind separates them from the swarm. They are no longer part of your summoned swarm. They are individuals in a hivemind. The spell has ended for those particular creatures. They get sent back to where they came from. Now you have a swarm with less members. Less swarmy. It doesn't work.

Ok, your first point boils down to the rules for hiveminds in BoVD are *terrible* and require some interpretation. Dark Unity mentions a 100-creature limit, but the rules for determining how you separate individual creatures from the swarm are vague and confusing. It's not clear if this is supposed to be a "hard limit" that you can't go over via Dark Unity, because almost the entirety of the hivemind rules has to do with what happens when the number of creatures goes way over 100+. The best instructions we get on how to treat the hivemind for various attacks or spell effects is essentially just vague advice: "When running a hivemind encounter, play the hivemind as a single creature as much as possible." But there's no indication in the text that the hivemind is treated as a single separate creature, as part of the original swarm, or as a separate but smaller swarm. When I put together Black Sparrow, I assumed that the hivemind could be created in 100-creature "chunks", or rather, 1 hivemind + 99 more creatures = slightly larger/smarter hivemind, then rinse & repeat until all 5000 creatures are in the same hivemind. This isn't really well-supported by the rules, either. I just sorta hoped that if I said this is how it works, the judges wouldn't get to fussy about the details.

Declaring that any creatures added to the hivemind are no longer part of the summoned swarm and thus diseappear... that's an interesting interpretation! And I could see many DMs rule it that way. But I don't see anything in the text to suggest that's the only way to interpret it.

Anyway, that was my two cents. As a judge, you are entirely within your rights to say, "This stinks like cheese, and I am feeling lactose-intolerant today."

[Karl Aegis]

The 3.5 version is unambiguous in what it does.

Dark Unity: You can use the Dark Speech to establish a hive mind in any swarm of vermin or animals with an Intelligence score of 2 or lower. Thereafter, you can give the swarm one command as per the suggestion spell (caster level equals your Hit Dice). Whenever you infuse a swarm in this manner, you take 1d4 points of Constitution damage. (Elder Evils pg. 12)

You can give a swarm of vermin or animals with an Intelligence score of 2, 1, or 0 one command as per the suggestion spell. You normally wouldn't be able to give a swarm a command as per the suggestion spell because Suggestion is language-dependent and only has a target of one living creature, which a swarm is not. Oddly enough, vermin have a nonability in intelligence which makes them not a legal target without jumping through some hoops.

[Piggy Knowles]

The 3.5 version is unambiguous in what it does.

Dark Unity: You can use the Dark Speech to establish a hive mind in any swarm of vermin or animals with an Intelligence score of 2 or lower. Thereafter, you can give the swarm one command as per the suggestion spell (caster level equals your Hit Dice). Whenever you infuse a swarm in this manner, you take 1d4 points of Constitution damage. (Elder Evils pg. 12)

You can give a swarm of vermin or animals with an Intelligence score of 2, 1, or 0 one command as per the suggestion spell. You normally wouldn't be able to give a swarm a command as per the suggestion spell because Suggestion is language-dependent and only has a target of one living creature, which a swarm is not. Oddly enough, vermin have a nonability in intelligence which makes them not a legal target without jumping through some hoops.

That's true. That same language exists almost verbatim on page 33 of BoVD as well (in the section elaborating on what Dark Speech can provide). It's pretty clear that Dark Speech has the ability to create a hivemind, and thereafter issue a command as though via suggestion. We've got a two-step process: first, you create a hivemind, and then, you issue it a command as though via suggestion.

A hivemind is not just flavor text. It is an actual defined thing in the game. (Well, maybe "actual defined" isn't the best way to describe it. "Amorphous" and "poorly defined" might be a bit more on the nose.) It is defined in detail on page 34 of BoVD. Those rules don't go away just because the book was printed at the end of 2002, as the core rulebooks that were subsequently published in 2003 specifically give rules that say tell us that the content is still valid. As no subsequent rules defining hiveminds was ever printed, they are the last word on what exactly a hivemind is.

All three sources where Dark Speech exists (Book of Vile Darkness/Fiendish Codex I/Elder Evils) say that you can use Dark Speech to establish a hivemind, and thereafter can issue a command as though via a suggestion spell. Only the Book of Vile Darkness actually defines what a hivemind is.

(Of course all this back and forth just reinforces that hivemind rules are overly complicated and bad.)

[Darrin]

The 3.5 version is unambiguous in what it does.

Up until you create a hivemind, yes. After that it gets a bit dodgy.

[Karl Aegis]

Up until you create a hivemind, yes. After that it gets a bit dodgy.

Then you give a command to the hivemind and the swarm acts on your command.

[Darrin]

Then you give a command to the hivemind and the swarm acts on your command.

Actually, that's not possible without the BoVD rules. A swarm can't be targeted by a suggestion effect because it doesn't have an Int high enough to have a language or understand speech. Fiendish Codex and Elder Evils do not contain a single scrap of text, not even a single word, outside of that first sentence in "Dark Unity" that describes what a hive mind is or how it acts within the game rules. You need the BoVD rules for that.

[Karl Aegis]

Actually, that's not possible without the BoVD rules. A swarm can't be targeted by a suggestion effect because it doesn't have an Int high enough to have a language or understand speech. Fiendish Codex and Elder Evils do not contain a single scrap of text, not even a single word, outside of that first sentence in "Dark Unity" that describes what a hive mind is or how it acts within the game rules. You need the BoVD rules for that.

OR

A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind.

SRD
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubty...m#swarmSubtype

[Venger]

What are you talking about?

The primary (and only) rules are in BoVD. It's been made perfectly clear that you need to use those.

To put aside this suggestion derail, it's irrelevant whether the swarm is immune by virtue of type, because they're not being targeted by the suggestion spell. The way that you give commands is just identical to suggestion, which is why the rules text of dark unity says "as if from the suggestion spell"

[Thurbane]

It would be fun to see an ingredient with an unusual number of levels, so maybe Court Herald (12), Necrocarnate (13) or True Necromancer (14)?

[Venger]

It would be fun to see an ingredient with an unusual number of levels, so maybe Court Herald (12), Necrocarnate (13) or True Necromancer (14)?

That would really be something.

[Selene Sparks]

What are you talking about?

The primary (and only) rules are in BoVD. It's been made perfectly clear that you need to use those.

To put aside this suggestion derail, it's irrelevant whether the swarm is immune by virtue of type, because they're not being targeted by the suggestion spell. The way that you give commands is just identical to suggestion, which is why the rules text of dark unity says "as if from the suggestion spell"

Sorry for butting in here, but I think I should that this is incorrect.

Not only are the Hivemind rules in BoVD explicitly referred to as variant rules, they are also always called "Hivemind," whereas the Dark Speech effect in EE(The most recent one as I recall) creates a "hive mind," which is specifically called out in core's entry on the swarm subtype. So Karl's objections are strictly correct as far as I can tell, and the Dark Speech/Hivemind thing is good and dead.