Can an interrupted long rest be treated as a short rest?

[Arkhios]

You play it however you feel it's best at your table.

DBZ does have a point.

Encounter ≠ Combat.

Encounter may exist without a combat, but a combat cannot exist without an encounter.

The encounter determines if those first two steps are relevant before you roll initiative and start combat. If one or more participants were actively trying to stay hidden before combat begins, you determine if anyone is aware of them. Those who are not aware are surprised. That was step 1. Combat haven't begun yet.

Next, regardless of your group's preferences on using grid or not, you determine where everyone is at before the combat begins. That was step 2. Still no combat yet.

Rolling initiative is the trigger when combat begins. Not before, not after. Right then and there. That's step 3.

While, indeed, it's the 3rd step and not the 1st step, it is the first step that actually matters in regards to when the turns start to matter.

This isn't in his or my head. This is literally what is written in the rules.

You could look at it this way:

Step 1) Ready? "Who's ready? I'm ready!"
Step 2) Set? "Where are you? I'm here!"
Step 3) Action! "Gogogo!"

[RSP]

DBZ does have a point.

Encounter ≠ Combat.

Encounter may exist without a combat, but a combat cannot exist without an encounter.

The encounter determines if those first two steps are relevant before you roll initiative and start combat. If one or more participants were actively trying to stay hidden before combat begins, you determine if anyone is aware of them. Those who are not aware are surprised. That was step 1. Combat haven't begun yet.

Next, regardless of your group's preferences on using grid or not, you determine where everyone is at before the combat begins. That was step 2. Still no combat yet.

Rolling initiative is the trigger when combat begins. Not before, not after. Right then and there. That's step 3.

While, indeed, it's the 3rd step and not the 1st step, it is the first step that actually matters in regards to when the turns start to matter.

This isn't in his or my head. This is literally what is written in the rules.

You could look at it this way:

Step 1) Ready? "Who's ready? I'm ready!"
Step 2) Set? "Where are you? I'm here!"
Step 3) Action! "Gogogo!"

Combat starts with step 1: "The DM determines whether anyone involved in the combat encounter is surprised."

I'm not sure why you don't think this is the first step of combat. It says it right there in the book. You acknowledge it as well as the first step of combat.

Now, I never said an encounter = combat, so I'm not sure where that comes from. Keep in mind, though, that you can roll initiative without combat.

[Arkhios]

Combat starts with step 1: "The DM determines whether anyone involved in the combat encounter is surprised."

I'm not sure why you don't think this is the first step of combat. It says it right there in the book. You acknowledge it as well as the first step of combat.

Now, I never said an encounter = combat, so I'm not sure where that comes from. Keep in mind, though, that you can roll initiative without combat.

From the 3rd step of combat, after having rolled initiative: "All combatants are now ready to begin their first regular round of combat".
The first two steps prior to third are like silent letters in some words. They can't be heard, but they can be seen. They exist, but the rules for pronunciation says that they are not pronounced.

So, in a way, 3rd step of combat is the "first", even though it isn't when reading the Step by Step, word for word.

And, sure, I can also roll d20 as much as I want whenever it isn't my turn but that doesn't accumulate to anything. Rolling initiative without combat doesn't mean anything, unless a specific rule trumps general, as is always the case. Generic rule is that initiative is rolled only when the combat is about to start.

[DivisibleByZero]

The question is, how many calories are burned if I am surprised?

[RSP]

From the 3rd step of combat, after having rolled initiative: "All combatants are now ready to begin their first regular round of combat".
The first two steps prior to third are like silent letters in some words. They can't be heard, but they can be seen. They exist, but the rules for pronunciation says that they are not pronounced.

So, in a way, 3rd step of combat is the "first", even though it isn't when reading the Step by Step, word for word.

And, sure, I can also roll d20 as much as I want whenever it isn't my turn but that doesn't accumulate to anything. Rolling initiative without combat doesn't mean anything, unless a specific rule trumps general, as is always the case. Generic rule is that initiative is rolled only when the combat is about to start.

The general rule is that initiative can be used outside of combat when the DM wants fast paced action, but that's beside the point.

If you want to say "combat doesn't happen without initiative," I'm not arguing. But it's not the first step. Combat also doesn't happen without determining surprise or character's positions. So, why wouldn't you agree that determining surprise is the first step of combat?

[Kane0]

The question is, how many calories are burned if I am surprised?

Don’t be silly. The PC must declare how many calories they intend to burn in lots of 50 (rounded down as usual) then the DM determines if things go as planned. But since you cannot act while surprised you cannot elect to burn calories.

[DivisibleByZero]

The general rule is that initiative can be used outside of combat when the DM wants fast paced action, but that's beside the point.

If you want to say "combat doesn't happen without initiative," I'm not arguing. But it's not the first step. Combat also doesn't happen without determining surprise or character's positions. So, why wouldn't you agree that determining surprise is the first step of combat?

We're not saying combat doesn't happen without those two steps.
We're saying combat doesn't start until initiative is rolled.
Those two steps are required to initiate combat, but they are not what starts combat, nor are they inside of combat. You need the information provided by those steps to begin combat. That's why they are step 1 and step 2. But combat begins at step 3, just like it says in the text.

[RSP]

We're not saying combat doesn't happen without those two steps.
We're saying combat doesn't start until initiative is rolled.
Those two steps are required to initiate combat, but they are not what starts combat, nor are they inside of combat. You need the information provided by those steps to begin combat. That's why they are step 1 and step 2. But combat begins at step 3, just like it says in the text.

So, again, then, determining surprise is the first step of combat, no?

I'm not sure why this matters to this thread though.

[DivisibleByZero]

So, again, then, determining surprise is the first step of combat, no?

I'm not sure why this matters to this thread though.

It matters because until combat actually BEGINS you can take the benefits of the rest.
The DM determining surprise does not begin combat. As soon as he calls for initiative, you can take the benefits prior to rolling.
You were calling this a retcon, but it isn't a retcon unless that die has been rolled.
The first two steps listed are informational, and that information is required, but they are not actually a PART of the combat itself any more me looking up a word in a dictionary is a PART of conversation.
It is simply information required to complete the activity that is about to begin.

[Arial Black]

I have no idea where you get the lines you draw from.

So in your opinion you can claim the benefits of either rest, at anytime after they are fulfilled, even hours later in midst of the adventuring day?

Yes, unless interruptions make a rest invalid; a real risk which makes consistent use of this tactic dangerous. And I draw these lines based on the rules which state that a SR is at least 1 hour and that a LR is at least 8 hours, which means they may be longer, hypothetically without limit, although interruptions are a practical limitation.

Let's say you had 8 hours of rest including 6 hours of sleep overnight but chose not to take the benefits of either type of rest. Your body IS rested! At any moment you look, you may apply the benefits of either type of rest, assuming no interruptions.

If combat is about to start you may apply the benefits of either type. If you choose not to take the benefits of either type of rest as combat begins then you cannot take the benefits of either while you are in combat. After combat is over then you have lost the opportunity to take the benefits of a SR because it was interrupted by combat, at least until you get another 1 hour of non-strenuous activity.

Can you gain the benefits of a LR after the combat? Yes. Unless you have accumulated more than 1 hour of strenuous activity, which you eventually will so you better take the LR benefits before that happens or you'll lose the opportunity.

But isn't that cheating? Getting all you stuff recovered in the middle of the day? No, for two reasons: first, they haven't got an extra LR, they just delayed it. Second, since you can only have one LR per day you can't 'save up' your LR and then have another 8 hours later.

And let me ask you this: let's say you do it this way, after an hour of rest you ask the Player: "an hour passes, are you taking a SR?" They say "no, I'm Long Resting." The DM goes "okay, you're attacked by 8 goblins." The Player goes "okay, I Short Rest."

You don't think this involves changing (retconning) what happened?

In-game, the character could have healed, but chose not to. After seeing the goblins (and combat starting) you're fine with the retcon?

How many times? NO! They player does NOT say "I'm long-resting!" That is not a valid statement! Nor is the DM's inquiry. If the DM is foolish enough to ask, "An hour passes, are you taking a SR?", the answer is, "I'm resting. I'll let you know if I want to take the benefits".

"Okay, you get attacked!"

"I'll take the benefits of a SR".

This is NOT a ret-con! It would be a ret-con if the player said, "Oh, we're being attacked? In that case I completed a SR 2 hours ago and am now 2 hours into more resting". No, he can't do that. But he CAN say that, right now, my SR is complete, even if that means that it was a 3 hour SR.

Let's take it a step further: an assassin is after the party, and waits for them to sleep. All Players (and therefore characters) have opted to put their "resting time" toward a LR.

Stop! Stop right there! You've gone wrong already! No-one 'opts to put their resting time toward a LR'! They. Just. Rest.

The only time players 'opt to put their resting time toward a LR' is the moment they take the benefits! Until they do, it is neither a LR or a SR, it's just 'rest'.

One player is significantly more wounded than the others. Let's assume the DM role plays NPCs appropriately to their intelligence. The party wakes up as the assassin approaches.

At the point they wake up have the players decide which rest, if any, they want to take. How can they do this? Because at this point their bodies have already been resting for several hours and been 'healing/recovering' constantly.

The assassin, who acts first, knows that 3 opponents are more difficult than 2 opponents and goes for the weakest looking character (the most injured PC). The assassin hits and downs the PC.

The assassin will see the 'rested' PCs and make his judgement on that basis.

You really allow the PC to then say "oh I took a SR earlier, I used HD so I'm now at full health prior to the assassin a attack, and his attack didn't drop me to zero anymore."

You really think this doesn't involve retconning? Wouldn't the assassin have now targeted one of the wounded PCs and not the one who is uninjured?

No, I don't allow them to say that the took the benefits of a SR earlier, I ask if they take the benefits now! Even if they have had 5 hours' sleep, that would be a 5 hour SR if they choose to take the benefits.

How rested are you now, when the event occurs? That is what we are determining. No ret-con.

I really don't get why you would run the game with SRs being a use-any-time resource. Based on the wording of the rules, it seems clear to me this isn't how they were intended to be used, that once a period of rest is over and passed, you can't go back and decide to "use it."

Do you have a spot on the character to track saved SRs and LRs?

The wording of the rules makes it crystal clear that a SR is at least 1 hour and a LR is at least 8 hours, so by definition (and the lack of any mention of an 'at most' clause) each type of rest can be longer, and in fact only actually ends at the moment you take the benefits. If your attempt at rest was so interrupted that you no longer qualify for either type of rest then it's not that you LR or SR ended at that point, it's that you did not have a LR or SR!

[Arial Black]

Is the question can sleep be part of either a SR or a LR? The answer is yes. No one is arguing this.

Is the question: is any given hour of a LR also a SR, the answer is no. I'm not sure what you think I'm avoiding.

The question isn't: can sleep be either? The question is if a LR is declared, can that be changed to a SR after it is interrupted.

This is the mistake. This is not a valid declaration. You can say you go to sleep, but there is no such 'declared action' as "I long rest".

Therefore, when you are awoken 3 hours into your sleep, the fact that you hoped to get a LR is irrelevant! You are not 'having a LR' at that point, but you have already had at least 1 hour of rest, so you can take the SR benefits if you want.

Would you all allow the reverse as well: can a Player state they're taking a SR, roll their HD expenditure, then after 7 more hours decide they did actually do that SR?

If the players at any point decide that their PC is taking the benefits of a SR, then they need 8 more hours after that in order to qualify for a LR.

[Arial Black]

So do all those posting that they disagree with me, really agree, and play, with this:



So you can bank LRs (and supposedly SRs) for use later? That is, the players are now 5 battles in to their adventuring day and the Wizard can just say "hey I'm cashing in my LR."

As long as they haven't accumulated more than 1 hour of strenuous activity, yes.

[Arial Black]

So here you actually agree with me: you can't take the benefits of a rest during strenuous activity. That would include combat no?

So if a Player has told you they are LRing and not SRing, and then combat starts, it would, in fact, be taking the benefits of the rest during combat, which according to this quote you would agree is not allowed.

No, it would not be taking the benefits during combat.

It would be checking to see how rested you are at the moment combat breaks out.

[smcmike]

I feel like both AB and Rsp represent minority views. I might be wrong about that, but this all seems very easy in practice.

Following a long rest, the DM says “the party awakens and begins their day, feeling refreshed.” The player does not get to delay anything, because a long rest isn’t a choice they make, it’s an accrued benefit (prepared spells are different, but let’s not get into that).

Short rests are a bit different, because there is player choice involved, but again it seems simple enough for the DM to present the decision to the players: “You are awakened around midnight by a crash. You’ve rested long enough for a short rest, do you want to take the benefits? It would mean restarting your long rest.”

[RSP]

Yes, unless interruptions make a rest invalid; a real risk which makes consistent use of this tactic dangerous. And I draw these lines based on the rules which state that a SR is at least 1 hour and that a LR is at least 8 hours, which means they may be longer, hypothetically without limit, although interruptions are a practical limitation.

Let's say you had 8 hours of rest including 6 hours of sleep overnight but chose not to take the benefits of either type of rest. Your body IS rested! At any moment you look, you may apply the benefits of either type of rest, assuming no interruptions.

If combat is about to start you may apply the benefits of either type. If you choose not to take the benefits of either type of rest as combat begins then you cannot take the benefits of either while you are in combat. After combat is over then you have lost the opportunity to take the benefits of a SR because it was interrupted by combat, at least until you get another 1 hour of non-strenuous activity.

Can you gain the benefits of a LR after the combat? Yes. Unless you have accumulated more than 1 hour of strenuous activity, which you eventually will so you better take the LR benefits before that happens or you'll lose the opportunity.

But isn't that cheating? Getting all you stuff recovered in the middle of the day? No, for two reasons: first, they haven't got an extra LR, they just delayed it. Second, since you can only have one LR per day you can't 'save up' your LR and then have another 8 hours later.



How many times? NO! They player does NOT say "I'm long-resting!" That is not a valid statement! Nor is the DM's inquiry. If the DM is foolish enough to ask, "An hour passes, are you taking a SR?", the answer is, "I'm resting. I'll let you know if I want to take the benefits".

"Okay, you get attacked!"

"I'll take the benefits of a SR".

This is NOT a ret-con! It would be a ret-con if the player said, "Oh, we're being attacked? In that case I completed a SR 2 hours ago and am now 2 hours into more resting". No, he can't do that. But he CAN say that, right now, my SR is complete, even if that means that it was a 3 hour SR.



Stop! Stop right there! You've gone wrong already! No-one 'opts to put their resting time toward a LR'! They. Just. Rest.

The only time players 'opt to put their resting time toward a LR' is the moment they take the benefits! Until they do, it is neither a LR or a SR, it's just 'rest'.



At the point they wake up have the players decide which rest, if any, they want to take. How can they do this? Because at this point their bodies have already been resting for several hours and been 'healing/recovering' constantly.



The assassin will see the 'rested' PCs and make his judgement on that basis.



No, I don't allow them to say that the took the benefits of a SR earlier, I ask if they take the benefits now! Even if they have had 5 hours' sleep, that would be a 5 hour SR if they choose to take the benefits.

How rested are you now, when the event occurs? That is what we are determining. No ret-con.



The wording of the rules makes it crystal clear that a SR is at least 1 hour and a LR is at least 8 hours, so by definition (and the lack of any mention of an 'at most' clause) each type of rest can be longer, and in fact only actually ends at the moment you take the benefits. If your attempt at rest was so interrupted that you no longer qualify for either type of rest then it's not that you LR or SR ended at that point, it's that you did not have a LR or SR!

I was referring to this "at most" clause from the long rest clause: "...and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity..." So the LR cannot continue past two hours of light activity. A SR can, in theory continue on indefinitely, assuming the rule on strenuous activity isn't broken.

Now again, the devs don't see SRs and LRs as you do. They are actual things, and not just benefits hence the tweets:

@JeremyECrawford @mikemearls can a PC benefit from short rests during a long rest? A PC (fighter) is abusing second wind to save hit dies.

JC: "The intent is that you can't take a short rest and a long rest at the same time."

"so, if I start a long rest and after 1h15 a combat interrupts me, i dont get the benefits of a short?"

Mearls: "Yup"


Notice how none of that deals with "benefits." Also note the direct question we've been discussing is answered by Mearls.

Clearly JC is fine with the terminology of "taking a long rest" or "taking a short rest" as he uses it."

I'm not saying you have to use it this way, I'm saying this is what the rules are and how the devs saw it when they designed the game. Like everything in 5e, use it or don't as you see fit at your table.

[RSP]

It matters because until combat actually BEGINS you can take the benefits of the rest.
The DM determining surprise does not begin combat. As soon as he calls for initiative, you can take the benefits prior to rolling.
You were calling this a retcon, but it isn't a retcon unless that die has been rolled.
The first two steps listed are informational, and that information is required, but they are not actually a PART of the combat itself any more me looking up a word in a dictionary is a PART of conversation.
It is simply information required to complete the activity that is about to begin.

Step 1 of combat and determining surprise "of anyone involved in the combat encounter" mean you are no longer in downtime (necessary for either a SR or LR) and have, in fact, entered combat.

Note they put this first step both under "The Order of Combat" header and within a box titled "Combat Step By Step".

[RSP]

I feel like both AB and Rsp represent minority views. I might be wrong about that, but this all seems very easy in practice.

Following a long rest, the DM says “the party awakens and begins their day, feeling refreshed.” The player does not get to delay anything, because a long rest isn’t a choice they make, it’s an accrued benefit (prepared spells are different, but let’s not get into that).

Short rests are a bit different, because there is player choice involved, but again it seems simple enough for the DM to present the decision to the players: “You are awakened around midnight by a crash. You’ve rested long enough for a short rest, do you want to take the benefits? It would mean restarting your long rest.”

I'm sure various tables/DMs deal with it differently. Again, I'm not saying anyone has to play it any one way.

One of the main devs has specifically answered this question and another heavily hinted that he views it the same. Again, my "view" isn't "you have to play it like I do," my arguments have been that "this is what the devs intended in their design." Separately, when asked, I've provided how I do things at my table. I'm not providing that to say "do it this way," I'm just responding to what's being asked.

[smcmike]

I'm sure various tables/DMs deal with it differently. Again, I'm not saying anyone has to play it any one way.

One of the main devs has specifically answered this question and another heavily hinted that he views it the same. Again, my "view" isn't "you have to play it like I do," my arguments have been that "this is what the devs intended in their design." Separately, when asked, I've provided how I do things at my table. I'm not providing that to say "do it this way," I'm just responding to what's being asked.

Yes, but you are also making a claim that about the text of the rules, which is not supported by anything much.

[Arial Black]

I was referring to this "at most" clause from the long rest clause: "...and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity..." So the LR cannot continue past two hours of light activity. A SR can, in theory continue on indefinitely, assuming the rule on strenuous activity isn't broken.

The intent is that in the hypothetical ideal long rest of exactly 8 hours, 6 hours will be sleep and the other 2 hours need not be sleep but must be no more than light activity. This is what the 'no more than 2 hours of light activity' refers to.

In fact, that part of the rest rules has been errata'd to make the 'at least 6 hours sleep' explicit, which it wasn't originally.

I don't have access to this errata right now; if I did I'd copy/paste it here. I'd appreciate it if someone would paste the errata'd version for us all to analyse.

Now again, the devs don't see SRs and LRs as you do. They are actual things, and not just benefits hence the tweets:

@JeremyECrawford @mikemearls can a PC benefit from short rests during a long rest? A PC (fighter) is abusing second wind to save hit dies.

JC: "The intent is that you can't take a short rest and a long rest at the same time."

As always, JC is the rules guy and knows what he's talking about. Mearls....doesn't.

So here, JC is saying that, when you look back to see how long it's been since you performed any strenuous activity, you may find that you qualify for both a LR or a SR. However, the moment you 'cash in' that time, at that moment the time spent resting was EITHER a LR OR a SR. As JC says, it cannot be both.

Let's say you have been sleeping for 3 hours when you are woken up. You CAN choose not to take the benefits of a SR, even though you could, because you are hoping to gain the benefits of a LR as soon as possible.

You CAN instead choose to take the benefits of a SR at that point, but if you do then it was a 3 hour SR, and you'd need to rest another 8 hours to get a LR.

What you CANNOT do is take the benefits of a SR after 3 hours, and ALSO claim that this 3 hours is part of a future LR so that you only need 5 more hours. THAT is what JC means when he says that you can't take both types at the same time. The fact remains that any rest is neither type of rest until you cash it in! But when you do cash those hours in, they all count toward only one type of rest; you can't cash in the same hour twice!

"so, if I start a long rest and after 1h15 a combat interrupts me, i dont get the benefits of a short?"

Mearls: "Yup"

Notice how none of that deals with "benefits." Also note the direct question we've been discussing is answered by Mearls.

Which demonstrates yet again that Mearls is not the rules guy.

Clearly JC is fine with the terminology of "taking a long rest" or "taking a short rest" as he uses it."

I'm not saying you have to use it this way, I'm saying this is what the rules are and how the devs saw it when they designed the game. Like everything in 5e, use it or don't as you see fit at your table.

JC uses the terms like I do. Read his quotes again in that context and you'll see that it matches what I've been saying.

[Arial Black]

Step 1 of combat and determining surprise "of anyone involved in the combat encounter" mean you are no longer in downtime (necessary for either a SR or LR) and have, in fact, entered combat.

Note they put this first step both under "The Order of Combat" header and within a box titled "Combat Step By Step".

This is an extraordinary blind spot you have.

Surprise is determined. The position of all the creatures is determined. Initiative is determined. If needed, how rested the PCs are is determined. Then combat starts.

When surprise is determined, the DM and players might roll dice and do stuff with the rules, but the people in our world sat around the gaming table might be doing stuff but the creatures in the game are not! We are just establishing whether or not they are surprised, because we need to know this so we can run the combat according to the 5e combat rules. But the important part is that 'determining surprise' is NOT an 'action' taken by the characters in the game world!

WE, the players/DM, are simply finding something out. The PCs are NOT taking the 'am I surprised?' action as their first Action In Combat!

When we determine the position of the creatures, we are establishing where they already are when it all kicks off. No character is taking the 'I find out where I am' Action In Combat!

And when we determine how rested our PCs are, the players are doing stuff at the table (deciding whether they take the benefits of any rest they qualify for), but the characters in the game are NOT taking the 'long rest' Action In Combat! They are already 'rested'; WE are just establishing how rested they are in game terms as the combat breaks out, because we need this information just as we need to know where everyone is, whether they are surprised, and how fast they act.

NONE of this is actually 'combat'. It is simply gathering the information needed for the DM/players to run the combat in the meta-game, they are not things that the characters 'do'.

[RSP]

This is an extraordinary blind spot you have.

Surprise is determined. The position of all the creatures is determined. Initiative is determined. If needed, how rested the PCs are is determined. Then combat starts....

...And when we determine how rested our PCs are, the players are doing stuff at the table (deciding whether they take the benefits of any rest they qualify for), but the characters in the game are NOT taking the 'long rest' Action In Combat! They are already 'rested'; WE are just establishing how rested they are in game terms as the combat breaks out, because we need this information just as we need to know where everyone is, whether they are surprised, and how fast they act.

NONE of this is actually 'combat'. It is simply gathering the information needed for the DM/players to run the combat in the meta-game, they are not things that the characters 'do'.

I never claimed surprise was an action by players or characters. For your benefit, though, here is how combat goes:

Combat Step by Step
1. Determine surprise.
2. Establish positions.
3.Roll initiative.
4.Take turns.
5. Begin the next round.

So it does, indeed, start with determining surprise. And yet, that fourth step you insist is RAW isn't listed. I'm assuming you're thinking it was a typo.

[RSP]

The intent is that in the hypothetical ideal long rest of exactly 8 hours, 6 hours will be sleep and the other 2 hours need not be sleep but must be no more than light activity. This is what the 'no more than 2 hours of light activity' refers to.

In fact, that part of the rest rules has been errata'd to make the 'at least 6 hours sleep' explicit, which it wasn't originally.

I don't have access to this errata right now; if I did I'd copy/paste it here. I'd appreciate it if someone would paste the errata'd version for us all to analyse.



As always, JC is the rules guy and knows what he's talking about. Mearls....doesn't.

So here, JC is saying that, when you look back to see how long it's been since you performed any strenuous activity, you may find that you qualify for both a LR or a SR. However, the moment you 'cash in' that time, at that moment the time spent resting was EITHER a LR OR a SR. As JC says, it cannot be both.

Let's say you have been sleeping for 3 hours when you are woken up. You CAN choose not to take the benefits of a SR, even though you could, because you are hoping to gain the benefits of a LR as soon as possible.

You CAN instead choose to take the benefits of a SR at that point, but if you do then it was a 3 hour SR, and you'd need to rest another 8 hours to get a LR.

What you CANNOT do is take the benefits of a SR after 3 hours, and ALSO claim that this 3 hours is part of a future LR so that you only need 5 more hours. THAT is what JC means when he says that you can't take both types at the same time. The fact remains that any rest is neither type of rest until you cash it in! But when you do cash those hours in, they all count toward only one type of rest; you can't cash in the same hour twice!



Which demonstrates yet again that Mearls is not the rules guy.



JC uses the terms like I do. Read his quotes again in that context and you'll see that it matches what I've been saying.

Let me help you with that errata:

"A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity, such as read- ing, talking, eating, or standing watch.”

The "no more than 2 hours" is still there. You are wrong about this.

I don't agree JC or the rules back up your view, as was pointed out earlier by someone who is not me, incidentally, this line seems to disagree with you: "Adventurers can take short rests in the midst of an adventuring day and a long rest to end the day." Again, the wording does support how I, and the devs view it.

You can bash Mearls all you want, but note that he was one of the main devs and so when he tweets about the rules/intent, it is relevant.

[RSP]

Yes, but you are also making a claim that about the text of the rules, which is not supported by anything much.

I'm not sure what you mean here: are you saying that the RAW doesn't support that LRs and SRs are different things? Or that they aren't used as things Players state their characters do? Or that determining surprise isn't the first step of combat?

What do you think I'm saying that doesn't have support in the RAW?

[smcmike]

I'm not sure what you mean here: are you saying that the RAW doesn't support that LRs and SRs are different things? Or that they aren't used as things Players state their characters do? Or that determining surprise isn't the first step of combat?

What do you think I'm saying that doesn't have support in the RAW?

I don’t think there is any textual support for your claim that a character who has been asleep for more than one hour cannot receive the benefits of a short rest on awakening without declaring, prior to falling asleep, that that was his objective. You have similarly argued that a player cannot proactively declare that she intends the rest to count as a short rest of interrupted, but a long rest if not. I certainly do not see any rules support for this position.

[DivisibleByZero]

I never claimed surprise was an action by players or characters. For your benefit, though, here is how combat goes:

Combat Step by Step
1. Determine surprise.
2. Establish positions.
3.Roll initiative.
4.Take turns.
5. Begin the next round.

So it does, indeed, start with determining surprise. And yet, that fourth step you insist is RAW isn't listed. I'm assuming you're thinking it was a typo.

When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order.

All combatants are now ready to begin their first regular round of combat.

When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order.

All combatants are now ready to begin their first regular round of combat

When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order.

All combatants are now ready to begin their first regular round of combat.

When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order.

All combatants are now ready to begin their first regular round of combat

When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order.

All combatants are now ready to begin their first regular round of combat.

When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order.

All combatants are now ready to begin their first regular round of combat

When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order.

All combatants are now ready to begin their first regular round of combat.

When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order.

All combatants are now ready to begin their first regular round of combat

When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order.

All combatants are now ready to begin their first regular round of combat.

When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order.

All combatants are now ready to begin their first regular round of combat

How many times does it need to be said?

[EvilAnagram]

And so DivisibleByZero was also drawn into the Forever Thread. He was driven by his belief that logic must prevail, but alas, as with many great heroes before him, Hubris was his undoing.

[DivisibleByZero]

And so DivisibleByZero was also drawn into the Forever Thread. He was driven by his belief that logic must prevail, but alas, as with many great heroes before him, Hubris was his undoing.

No, it's just that I am now curious exactly how long this thread is going to continue for, and want to play my part.

[EvilAnagram]

No, it's just that I am now curious exactly how long this thread is going to continue for, and want to play my part.

And so DivisibleByZero threw a filthy, torn-up desk chair into this dumpster fire and marveled at the way it burned.

[smcmike]

As a veteran of this sort of thread, I can tell you that they generally do not die natural deaths.

[RSP]

I don’t think there is any textual support for your claim that a character who has been asleep for more than one hour cannot receive the benefits of a short rest on awakening without declaring, prior to falling asleep, that that was his objective.

I have not claimed this. I've explained how I handle it in my games by asking this. I've maintained sleep can count as either activity suitable to either a SR or LR. The thread is about turning a LR into a SR: this question presupposes that the characters are taking a LR and want to change to a SR. I've maintained the entire time that if a Player states they're taking a LR, then they cannot change that to a SR after the interruption.

Again, I've separately stated how I personally handle the non-declaration during my sessions by asking what the characters are doing (though my Players have almost always stated one way or the other, as I recall).

You have similarly argued that a player cannot proactively declare that she intends the rest to count as a short rest of interrupted, but a long rest if not. I certainly do not see any rules support for this position.

The rules support is in how the game runs. Do you agree that a SR is a different thing than a LR based on their descriptions?

If not, then we can discuss the different activities allowed to complete them.

If you do agree to this, then when else in 5e can you make such statements of "I want to do X, if X will be successful, however, if X will not be successful, then I will instead do Y." I've supported that this isn't how the game is played by quoting the general rules of play.

Analogies, such as "I'll cast Hold Person, but if HP fails, then I'll just attack instead," show that this type of play isn't how the game is designed.

Again: DM describes the environment ("you've defeated the trolls and you don't see anymore threats")

Players describe what they want to do ("We'll take a long rest")

The DM describes the results ("okay, a little over an hour into the rest, the party gets awoken by crunching sounds.")