Just what is the appeal of Batman these days?

[Darth Credence]

Right, because Superman doing THAT would surely have no larger economic, social or political consequences. (Just from the most basic standpoint - how many coal mines does Superman have the property rights to again?)

But more importantly for the purposes of this discussion is that what he could do is irrelevant - we're talking about what these characters CHOOSE to do, and how quaint/incongruous/hollow it's becoming in a modern context.

Hey, you're the one making the ridiculous claim that Superman is too poor to do these things. He can be rich if he wants. Heck, he could get some sponsorship deals on his uniform, make a billion dollars, and then use that to fund fixing the world. Why in the world are you arguing that Batman should be doing something, but when it gets brought up that Superman could do the same, you say that it doesn't count because he doesn't actually do that in the comics? That's ridiculous.

Well hell, why didn't you say so? Maybe HE can cure Two-Face then. Give him every psychology textbook on earth and tell him to hop to it. Reforming a supervillain would certainly be bigger bang for his buck than performing a single surgery.

But this is exactly the kind of DC universe nonsense* that makes a lot of their characters downright comical to me (and judging by the various articles and memes, not only me.) Which is not to say that Marvel never does anything like that, but their A-Listers tend to have much more well-defined limits. Using your surgery example, if Iron Man had to learn a bunch of medical data quickly, he wouldn't read the entirety of medicine by himself - some AI of his would have done it, which is a lot more plausible since that's a thing we're getting AI to do right now. It also makes challenging Iron Man in the future much simpler, because his smarts in that regard would be dependent on the availability of his computer.

You said Superman wasn't as smart as Batman. His mind is as advanced as his physiology, and that was an example. He is smarter than anyone else on the planet, but he doesn't use his smarts the way he should. Again, why are you saying Batman should use his brain better, but fighting against the idea that Superman should too?

Supes' solo comics frequently involve saving the entire planet, not just Metropolis. Certainly it's more frequent than Batman's books. As for gadgets, Two-Face and Black Mask and Hugo etc. don't even have that much. Certainly they don't have access to gadgets powered by Darkseid's technology (like Intergang does, and you failed to mention), so I'm truly hoping you see how that might prove to be something of a speed bump.

The overwhelming majority of his solo comics involve saving Metropolis. Saving Metropolis often means saving the world, but he is there to protect Metropolis.
So what about where they get their technology? They are normal humans. Toyman certainly doesn't get his technology from Darkseid, and he gives Superman problems all the time (which you failed to mention, so we're even).
You are arguing in bad faith here. You have an idea of why Batman is bad, and what makes him uniquely bad. Clearly, everything that you say that makes him uniquely bad is there in Superman, but you keep coming up with weaker and weaker reasons to blow it off.

[Psyren]

Yes, where would society ever be without the blood diamond monopoly totally cool diamond business that has no perceivable flaws? It'd be madness, I tells ya, madness!

Oh I'm not saying he shouldn't upend that racket, just that he wouldn't Again, his global influence seems to be focused on being generally "inspiring" rather than using force to effect change in a more tangible but also more collaterally damaging way.

[Psyren]

Hey, you're the one making the ridiculous claim that Superman is too poor to do these things. He can be rich if he wants. Heck, he could get some sponsorship deals on his uniform, make a billion dollars, and then use that to fund fixing the world. Why in the world are you arguing that Batman should be doing something, but when it gets brought up that Superman could do the same, you say that it doesn't count because he doesn't actually do that in the comics? That's ridiculous.

Because "could be pretty rich" and "is currently obscenely rich" are two different things?

He is smarter than anyone else on the planet, but he doesn't use his smarts the way he should.

So then he's... not?

The overwhelming majority of his solo comics involve saving Metropolis. Saving Metropolis often means saving the world, but he is there to protect Metropolis.
So what about where they get their technology? They are normal humans. Toyman certainly doesn't get his technology from Darkseid, and he gives Superman problems all the time (which you failed to mention, so we're even).

What Toyman-level gadgets does Two-Face have? Provide examples.
Also, the problems Toyman gives Supes either involve Kryptonite (the writer's perennial crutch) or hurting innocents rather than Supes himself. Just like every other unpowered villain who isn't borrowing a raygun from Apokolips.

You are arguing in bad faith here. You have an idea of why Batman is bad, and what makes him uniquely bad. Clearly, everything that you say that makes him uniquely bad is there in Superman, but you keep coming up with weaker and weaker reasons to blow it off.

You throw up a counter that's full of holes, I point out the holes, you then turn around and say I'm arguing in bad faith?

[Peelee]

Oh I'm not saying he shouldn't upend that racket, just that he wouldn't Again, his global influence seems to be focused on being generally "inspiring" rather than using force to effect change in a more tangible but also more collaterally damaging way.

Point taken.

Of course, my favorite comics are the old school DC ones where the heroes are put in ridiculous scenarios instead of fighting villains, so I'd be all up on a Superman Topples the Diamond Industry storyline.

[Darth Credence]

Because "could be pretty rich" and "is currently obscenely rich" are two different things?

He can be obscenely rich now. He could CHOOSE to be extremely rich immediately, and solve all of these problems. You said this is about what characters CHOOSE to do. Superman CHOOSEs not to become rich and fund societal improvements, but somehow that isn't the same thing. Yeah, that's BS.

So then he's... not?

He absolutely is. Canonically, Superman is smarter than anyone on Earth. But he doesn't CHOOSE to use that intelligence to make the world a better place. You are saying Batman should, but Superman doesn't have to. That's BS.

What Toyman-level gadgets does Two-Face have? Provide examples.
Also, the problems Toyman gives Supes either involve Kryptonite (the writer's perennial crutch) or hurting innocents rather than Supes himself. Just like every other unpowered villain who isn't borrowing a raygun from Apokolips.

How did this become about whether Two Face in particular has toys and gadgets like Toyman? I certainly never made the claim. I said there are normal humans in Superman's villains. And "Hereafter" from the Justice League, Toyman has a gadget that is not Kryptonite, and still takes Superman out.

You throw up a counter that's full of holes, I point out the holes, you then turn around and say I'm arguing in bad faith?

Yes, you are absolutely arguing in bad faith. You are changing your definitions, ignoring things that counter your narrative, and trying to call people out for not answering a hypothetical no one has talked about. I doubt you even know what you are arguing any more, other than "Batman bad!"

[Dr.Samurai]

Are we really arguing that Batman is more absurd than Superman??

[Devonix]

Are we really arguing that Batman is more absurd than Superman??

Its a pretty old idea. I just see them as equally absurd.

[Psyren]

He can be obscenely rich now. He could CHOOSE to be extremely rich immediately, and solve all of these problems. You said this is about what characters CHOOSE to do. Superman CHOOSEs not to become rich and fund societal improvements, but somehow that isn't the same thing. Yeah, that's BS.

He absolutely is. Canonically, Superman is smarter than anyone on Earth. But he doesn't CHOOSE to use that intelligence to make the world a better place. You are saying Batman should, but Superman doesn't have to. That's BS.

Let's assume you're correct, and Supes is smarter. DC has done a piss-poor job of portraying that (minus your one-off surgery example, which raises far more questions about Superman's morals than it answers) but whatever, we'll roll with it. So you've addressed 1 of the 5 things I mentioned. For his wealth, you've continued to dodge the question of how he's supposed to be getting these precious metals out of land that doesn't belong to him. For his villains, you've brought up a group of folks with Apokolips weaponry and some mad genius gadgeteers, but none who are ordinary gangsters with mental disorders. Supes not being able to deal with them is thus more understandable than it could ever be for Batman. And you've dismissed any examples of Superman's jurisdiction/heroics being far wider than just Metropolis - never mind that I'm pretty sure stuff like reigniting the sun, New Krypton, Camelot Falls etc goes way beyond Metropolis itself. So no, you haven'r proven a thing.

I said there are normal humans in Superman's villains.

You have yet to produce anyone as normal as the gangsters in Batman's.

Yes, you are absolutely arguing in bad faith. You are changing your definitions, ignoring things that counter your narrative, and trying to call people out for not answering a hypothetical no one has talked about. I doubt you even know what you are arguing any more, other than "Batman bad!"

What definitions did I change?

Its a pretty old idea. I just see them as equally absurd.

As do I, but at least Superman's rogues are equally absurd. Batman's just need a prison that isn't Arkham.

[Dr.Samurai]

Anyone that can start mining asteroids will be pretty wealthy. Absurdly so. The problem is reaching those asteroids and bringing them closer. Currently we can't do that. Superman easily could...

[Mightymosy]

There's that xkcd comic where Superman works on a giant dynamo for free and clean electricity for earth. For free.
He could of course also do that for money

[Anteros]

Oh I'm not saying he shouldn't upend that racket, just that he wouldn't Again, his global influence seems to be focused on being generally "inspiring" rather than using force to effect change in a more tangible but also more collaterally damaging way.

So Superman gets a pass for staying in character while Batman doesn't? How does that make any sense at all? Honestly, almost all of your criticisms can apply to basically any comic character. You're just choosing not to do so for the ones you like.

[Lord Raziere]

There's that xkcd comic where Superman works on a giant dynamo for free and clean electricity for earth. For free.
He could of course also do that for money

I think your mixing up your comics.....SMBC not xkcd.

[deuterio12]

All of the arguments about "why doesn't Batman devote all his efforts into charity instead of dressing like a Bat" are ignoring that he exists in a universe where dressing like a Bat is millions of times more effective than social programs and charity.

Sure, he could probably scrap the Batman thing and raise Gotham's standard of living. It wouldn't last very long once they get nuked by one of the many crazies that live there, or the whole world gets destroyed because there's no Batman.

There are literally dozens of stories about what if Bruce Wayne wasn't Batman and all of them share the common theme that the world goes to crap. We're talking about a guy who has been instrumental in saving the world hundreds of times...and you want him to scrap that program and focus on what? Building after school basketball courts? I'm sure those will help the next time Superman gets brainwashed by some alien overlord! These types of "they should do this instead!" arguments only hold up if you willfully ignore all evidence about the setting the characters are in and the things they accomplish.

Nobody saying that Bruce shouldn't put on his power armor when Darkseid comes knocking or supes gets brainwashed.

What we're saying is that Bats trying to solo all of Gotham's dark alleys is stupidly inneficient when the city is at such level of incompetence and corruption.

There is a middle ground where Bats fights Darkseid personally and Bruce takes care of the local crime and corruption.

Because let's be honest, no way Bruce can properly focus on tomorrow's meeting about how to improve the city if Bats spent all the previous nights up cracking skulls and getting his own skull cracked.

And since Darkseid has the decency of not attacking every night and supes only gets brainwashed every other year or so, Bats only needs to show up when he's really needed instead of constantly saping Bruce's time and focus.

Plus if nothing else, if Bats is so essential in protecting Earth, then even more of a reason for him not to risk his life dodging thug bullets (or at least wear that damn anti-alien power armor).

What would've happened if Darkseid had tried to invade while supes was brainwashed and Bats had his spine broken after all?

[Devonix]

Ok one of the big problems I'm seeing here is that people are trying to apply real world rules to a place that does not follow real world rules.

A favorite superman quote " Your solutions don't work in a world of Giant Apes on the moon. " In which someone tries to talk about certain things like killing off supervillains and other such.

Things that might work in the real world don't work on DC Kill off all supervillains. Well you forget, the afterlife is an established thing in DC, Demons, and hell. And the ability to come back from the dead are definable experiences.

You lock up the joker and you know where he is. You kill the Joker and he could pop up anywhere.

And as for Batman, in the real world he can't be in two places at once. However in the comics he's been shown very capable at being batman all night long and then putting all of his effort into being Bruce Wayne in the daytime.

[deuterio12]

And as for Batman, in the real world he can't be in two places at once. However in the comics he's been shown very capable at being batman all night long and then putting all of his effort into being Bruce Wayne in the daytime.

Yeah, so capable that Bruce can't hold a stable relationship and all of the city's police can't even catch a crazy non-powered clown on their own while the Gotham has been turning into more and more of a hellhole as time goes by.

[Devonix]

Yeah, so capable that Bruce can't hold a stable relationship and all of the city's police can't even catch a crazy non-powered clown on their own while the Gotham has been turning into more and more of a hellhole as time goes by.

Except for the times Gotham is shown to be getting better and better. How Gotham is depicted, the condition of it and the crime rate, vary from writer to writer, it's not something you can properly gauge. Because it's not written in a way that's designed to be properly gauged.


How well or how poorly Gotham is doing is all fan speculation because the next writer to come along can simply write that the crime rate is the lowest it's been in decades.

[Devonix]

I'll leave it to the master.

[Psyren]

So Superman gets a pass for staying in character while Batman doesn't? How does that make any sense at all?

Because Batman has no reason to "stay in character" against unpowered, gadget-less muggle bad guys.

How well or how poorly Gotham is doing is all fan speculation because the next writer to come along can simply write that the crime rate is the lowest it's been in decades.

But it can't ever stay that way because again, a good chunk of his gallery are gangsters. Can't have organized crime without, well, crime.

Again, I'm not saying DC don't have any reason to keep the status quo the way it is. But all those hot takes, articles and mocking parodies about Batman being a jerkass or ineffective weren't written by Psyren.

[Dr.Samurai]

What we're saying is that Bats trying to solo all of Gotham's dark alleys is stupidly inneficient when the city is at such level of incompetence and corruption.

Okay. I don't think anyone disagrees that Batman probably won't solve all of Gotham's problems one thug at a time. But he feels a need to prowl the streets of Gotham. That's his character.

You might as well be complaining that the presence of a masked vigilante going around breaking people's bones *every night* would heavily deter criminals from sticking around in Gotham and committing crimes in the first place, and so the entire premise becomes unrealistic over time and *rolleyes* it's all just so silly. Same with the super fast and invulnerable alien god that can hear and see everything you're doing in Metropolis; how are there still criminals there?

Because let's be honest, no way Bruce can properly focus on tomorrow's meeting about how to improve the city if Bats spent all the previous nights up cracking skulls and getting his own skull cracked.

My head canon is that he uses polyphasic sleeping to get all of his sleep in six twenty minute naps throughout the day. Done. He can be Batman and Bruce as he wishes.

[deuterio12]

Okay. I don't think anyone disagrees that Batman probably won't solve all of Gotham's problems one thug at a time. But he feels a need to prowl the streets of Gotham. That's his character.

You might as well be complaining that the presence of a masked vigilante going around breaking people's bones *every night* would heavily deter criminals from sticking around in Gotham and committing crimes in the first place, and so the entire premise becomes unrealistic over time and *rolleyes* it's all just so silly. Same with the super fast and invulnerable alien god that can hear and see everything you're doing in Metropolis; how are there still criminals there?

Because they're most probably under Lex's employment and he'll pay their laywers to bail them out as soon as supes drops them in the prison.

My head canon is that he uses polyphasic sleeping to get all of his sleep in six twenty minute naps throughout the day. Done. He can be Batman and Bruce as he wishes.

That's not how it works. You still need to get 8 hours of sleep per day to retain proper mental capacities, 120 minutes ain't gonna cut it unless Bruce is super powered after all.

[Devonix]

You might as well be complaining that the presence of a masked vigilante going around breaking people's bones *every night* would heavily deter criminals from sticking around in Gotham and committing crimes in the first place, and so the entire premise becomes unrealistic over time and *rolleyes* it's all just so silly. Same with the super fast and invulnerable alien god that can hear and see everything you're doing in Metropolis; how are there still criminals there?

The pretty much isn't any of that type of crime in Metropolis. It's why nearly ever Superman comic has him operating outside of Metropolis, dealing with an alien threat. Or not actually fighting a villain at all.

Metropolis doesn't just have Superman, it has the Science police, aka Super powered SWAT. Purse snatching and bank robbing is almost nonexistant in the city.

[Anteros]

Nobody saying that Bruce shouldn't put on his power armor when Darkseid comes knocking or supes gets brainwashed.

What we're saying is that Bats trying to solo all of Gotham's dark alleys is stupidly inneficient when the city is at such level of incompetence and corruption.

There is a middle ground where Bats fights Darkseid personally and Bruce takes care of the local crime and corruption.

Because let's be honest, no way Bruce can properly focus on tomorrow's meeting about how to improve the city if Bats spent all the previous nights up cracking skulls and getting his own skull cracked.

And since Darkseid has the decency of not attacking every night and supes only gets brainwashed every other year or so, Bats only needs to show up when he's really needed instead of constantly saping Bruce's time and focus.

Plus if nothing else, if Bats is so essential in protecting Earth, then even more of a reason for him not to risk his life dodging thug bullets (or at least wear that damn anti-alien power armor).

What would've happened if Darkseid had tried to invade while supes was brainwashed and Bats had his spine broken after all?

But he does do all those things you're criticizing him for not doing. It's just that it's a comic book, so none of that works. You're just willfully ignoring any and all evidence that doesn't fit your narrative.

Yeah, so capable that Bruce can't hold a stable relationship and all of the city's police can't even catch a crazy non-powered clown on their own while the Gotham has been turning into more and more of a hellhole as time goes by.

You know the guy is getting married in his very next issue right? You don't even read these comics, do you?

Because Batman has no reason to "stay in character" against unpowered, gadget-less muggle bad guys.

He has just as much reason to stay in character as Superman does to not solve world hunger or poverty. You're just willing to ignore one character's flaws because you like them.

The pretty much isn't any of that type of crime in Metropolis. It's why nearly ever Superman comic has him operating outside of Metropolis, dealing with an alien threat. Or not actually fighting a villain at all.

Metropolis doesn't just have Superman, it has the Science police, aka Super powered SWAT. Purse snatching and bank robbing is almost nonexistant in the city.

Umm...Superman operates in Metropolis all the time in his books.

Because they're most probably under Lex's employment and he'll pay their laywers to bail them out as soon as supes drops them in the prison.



That's not how it works. You still need to get 8 hours of sleep per day to retain proper mental capacities, 120 minutes ain't gonna cut it unless Bruce is super powered after all.

I like how you criticize a character's lack of sleep as unrealistic and say that people can't go to jail because they work for Lex in the same breath. You really think a "realistic" system would keep giving these people bail?

Also, Bruce is only human by comic book standards. Comic book characters aren't normal humans. They lift cars. They get punched through concrete without even bruising. They fall from orbit and survive. It's not just Batman, it's a conceit of the entire genre.

[Devonix]

Umm...Superman operates in Metropolis all the time in his books.

Not nearly as much as you'd think. The overwhelming majority of his actual crime fighting takes place elsewhere. There have been entire years of Issues with not a single fight taking place in metropolis.

[Tvtyrant]

I honestly don't understand the complaints here. The appeal of Batman is he is a lone ranger beating up criminals in a city that has a mortality rate comparable to a war zone. A lot of kids grow up in bad areas and feel powerless and threatened, Batman is like a violent Santa. When gun shots go off nightly in your apartment complex, or the police have armed pursuits through your living room, or your Dad saves a kid wanted by a rival gang by driving him out of town you want some sense of security. Complexity doesn't come into it because you can't understand complexity, only fear and longing.

If they changed the premise it would no longer be a Batman story, and wouldn't appeal to people who like Batman. There are lots of "fixed" versions of Batman, and people are free to like them as well but that doesn't make them better. Being adult and nuanced is great, but Batman is for kids and people who want to refeel that thrill.

Like King Arthur or Robin Hood, it appeals to kids for its simplicity and to adults for its nostalgia of childhood.

[Devonix]

I honestly don't understand the complaints here. The appeal of Batman is he is a lone ranger beating up criminals in a city that has a mortality rate comparable to a war zone. A lot of kids grow up in bad areas and feel powerless and threatened, Batman is like a violent Santa. When gun shots go off nightly in your apartment complex, or the police have armed pursuits through your living room, or your Dad saves a kid wanted by a rival gang by driving him out of town you want some sense of security. Complexity doesn't come into it because you can't understand complexity, only fear and longing.

If they changed the premise it would no longer be a Batman story, and wouldn't appeal to people who like Batman. There are lots of "fixed" versions of Batman, and people are free to like them as well but that doesn't make them better. Being adult and nuanced is great, but Batman is for kids and people who want to refeel that thrill.

Like King Arthur or Robin Hood, it appeals to kids for its simplicity and to adults for its nostalgia of childhood.

100 percent agree. Comic books are fables, fantasy stories. And a lot of realism that gets pumped into them ends up ruining what makes them special. Don't explain the magic trick.

[Mightymosy]

I think your mixing up your comics.....SMBC not xkcd.

Oopsie. Both great, though. Thanks!

[deuterio12]

100 percent agree. Comic books are fables, fantasy stories. And a lot of realism that gets pumped into them ends up ruining what makes them special. Don't explain the magic trick.

I don't recall any fable where the "hero" saves the villain, heals their wounds, leaves them in a paper prison, only for the villain to go back to town and do even worst things. Repeated hundreds/thousands of times.

Bats may've started with good intentions, but it's been milked, stretched and corrupted for so long the appeal is no longer there unless you willingly ignore 99,99999% of the currently published material.

[Tvtyrant]

I don't recall any fable where the "hero" saves the villain, heals their wounds, leaves them in a paper prison, only for the villain to go back to town and do even worst things. Repeated hundreds/thousands of times.

Bats may've started with good intentions, but it's been milked, stretched and corrupted for so long the appeal is no longer there unless you willingly ignore 99,99999% of the currently published material.

My nephew loves Batman, his friends love Batman, and most of the people I know have watched the majority of the Batman films made (especially Adam West.) Lego Batman was amazing and populat. I'm failing to see the lack of appeal here.

[Anteros]

My nephew loves Batman, his friends love Batman, and most of the people I know have watched the majority of the Batman films made (especially Adam West.) Lego Batman was amazing and populat. I'm failing to see the lack of appeal here.

I have to agree. People forget that these things are ultimately made for children. Criticizing comic characters for their lack of depth in adult areas like economics is a non starter. Your 8 year old kid doesn't care if Superman feeds the homeless, or if Batman builds after school activities for poor kids to keep them off the streets. They just want to see their favorite heroes being heroic.

Sure, adults can enjoy the characters too, but there's an automatic understanding that this is a character for children, and it's not going to stand up to adult scrutiny and seem completely realistic. If you can't get over that and enjoy the character, it's a personal failing, not a failing of the character. It's a wonder you don't see people posting critical threads about Thomas the Tank Engine too.

[Dr.Samurai]

That's not how it works. You still need to get 8 hours of sleep per day to retain proper mental capacities, 120 minutes ain't gonna cut it unless Bruce is super powered after all.

Yes, yes, we know. And he can't actually glide with his cape without crashing into something at lethal velocities, and his grappling hook gun wouldn't actually work, and his utility belt can realistically only hold a very finite number of items, and the list goes on.

There's realism, and then there's comic book realism right?

If a comic book explained that Bruce uses polyphasic sleeping so that every time he naps for twenty minutes he goes directly into REM sleep and gets all of the restorative sleep he needs, it's enough to explain how he can be Batman and Bruce at the same time. Because it's a comic.