The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

[lord_khaine]

I do think that the massive ability scores, as well as all the minor bonuses are enough to push it towards 0 LA.
Not something i think would be exciting to have in the party. but as others have already mentioned, i can see it as a decent totemist or swordsage.

[Dimers]

There would also be Domesticated Yowlers which may warrant a small positive LA.

Feral yippers. Lap yowlers. Teacup yowlers. You can carry them around in your purse. They're Tiny and have one hit die and a steep Charisma penalty.

[liquidformat]

I do think that the massive ability scores, as well as all the minor bonuses are enough to push it towards 0 LA.
Not something i think would be exciting to have in the party. but as others have already mentioned, i can see it as a decent totemist or swordsage.

key word here is towards and not to, the savage screamer is close to +0 but not all the way there. It wouldn't take that much to bump it up but it does need a bump. I think even just having the yowl as a move action or better a free action might be enough to make it a low end +0. Being an ok choice for totemist and swordsage is more pointing out how nice and forgiving these classes are than it is showing off any of the how good the brutal bawler is. I mean honestly for like 90% of these creatures the natural choice is a level or two of barbarian for pounce and maybe trip and the totemist or else sword sage/warblade/crusader that doesn't mean these are great creatures it means these are great forgiving classes that give you a good bang for your buck at any level.

[No brains]

Feral yippers. Lap yowlers. Teacup yowlers. You can carry them around in your purse. They're Tiny and have one hit die and a steep Charisma penalty.

That doesn't seem so bad. Having 1 RHD puts a creature on the shortlist for playable LA pretty quick. So they're subop for some classes like guard yowler, show yowler, or therapy yowler, but they're probably cromulent for classes like attack yowler, cancer-sniffing yowler, or even CODzilla yowler.

[Jormengand]

I would say +0. Magical Beast HD aren't the biggest burden in the world (they're some bonus feats away from being fighter levels with high reflex saves) and, well, would you rather have four feats or +8/+6/+16/-4/+2/+6, let alone fast healing 3 and miss chance 20%? I reckon that with a decent way of drawing aggro or doing damage or BFC from your class, you could make this work pretty decently. Built half-decently, it would pull its weight, I'd think.

Amusingly, it's also somewhat useful in any situation where you need to get a party member to the bottom of a cliff without spending any daily resources on doing so, but that's a little niche, I think. Funny mental image, though.

[Inevitability]

Gerivar

Problem: high-level beatsticks are easily negated by flight and projectile weapons.
Solution: create a high-level beatstick that can throw stuff, holy crap I'm a genius.

Let's just say it doesn't work that way.

The geriviar has 26 (!!!) RHD, and would make an awful PC. It's numbers are big (8 slams that deal 3d6 each and are based on its 33 strength) but big numbers simply aren't enough to compete anymore at this level (and arguably, they weren't for up to twenty levels before either).

Most of its special abilities are either defensive (DR 10/adamantine and magic, Regeneration 8 overcome by acid and cold), or weak. Throwing explosive nodules sound nice until you realize it amounts to a 20d6-damage AoE that can't even be truly used at-will, has poor range, and affects a small area. Sprint, Rock Catching, Leap, Batter... they're all abilities that would be pretty neat on a low-level monster but are just kind of sad on this one.

In the end, 26 giant RHD just ruin any possible build. Reduce the HD considerably, maybe scale some abilities back, and we'll talk. For now, -0 LA.

[OgresAreCute]

I knew it!

-0.

[liquidformat]

I would say +0. Magical Beast HD aren't the biggest burden in the world (they're some bonus feats away from being fighter levels with high reflex saves) and, well, would you rather have four feats or +8/+6/+16/-4/+2/+6, let alone fast healing 3 and miss chance 20%? I reckon that with a decent way of drawing aggro or doing damage or BFC from your class, you could make this work pretty decently. Built half-decently, it would pull its weight, I'd think.

Amusingly, it's also somewhat useful in any situation where you need to get a party member to the bottom of a cliff without spending any daily resources on doing so, but that's a little niche, I think. Funny mental image, though.

I agree with you, if the balance point is your average tier 5 fighter sure +0 no complaints; however, since our balancing point is tier 3 the undomesticated ululater is -0, not far from +0 but still falls short of the mark. Also considering I as a Fighter can have a mount that is competitive with this thing isn't great selling point either.

Gerivar -0 it would be cool if it didn't suffer from such a horrible case of rhd bloat...

[ViperMagnum357]

I have a soft spot for the Gerivar; it has a neat mix of abilities, and has some massive net adjustments. Which would be interesting on something with around 10 fewer RHD of a usable type, like Dragon. I am not sure how anything with 26 RHD and no casting/manifesting levels is supposed to compete. LA -0, and it is not close, though the abilities remain intriguing.

[Bavarian itP]

Solution: create a high-level beatstick that can throw stuff, holy crap I'm a genius.

I LOLed. Thanks

[almondsAndRain]

Problem: high-level beatsticks are easily negated by flight and projectile weapons.
Solution: create a high-level beatstick that can throw stuff, holy crap I'm a genius.

Hahaha, can I sig this?

And I'm voting for -0, too.

[Covenant12]

Very cool concept; if it was toned down quite a bit to a 10 HD giant chassis, or toned down not quite so much on a 16 HD dragon or outsider one, we may get an above-zero LA.

26 not-good HD though, he is not ready for epic play. Gishes have acquired 9th level spells, and pure ToB classes have negotiated epic maneuvers some time ago. Reverse gravity is a cool trick, and he is very tanky, but this is the kind of creature you dominate and use as shock troops, not have join the party. -0.

[javcs]

Concur, -0.

Possibly useful as situational and expendable minion material, though.

[Nifft]

26 HD and not really epic-appropriate.

Yeah, LA -0 for this thing.

I foresee a swath of similar evaluations since this isn't the only such Giant.

[Random Sanity]

You have to offer something spiffy to make ONE Giant RHD worth it. 26? Good luck with that. -0.

I'm pretty sure a 26th-level version of any PHB class would beat this thing into the ground.

[Inevitability]

Hahaha, can I sig this?

Of course you can! Tbh I'm just glad people like my random rambles.

[GreatWyrmGold]

[QUOTE=Inevitability;23218415][CENTER]Rejected names include 'bitey shrieker', 'unhappy yelper' and 'angery caterwauler'.[/quote
What about "banshee bobcat"? Or "crying caracal"?

If that's a Feral Yowler, doesn't that mean there should also be Tame Yowlers?
And are they more playable?

Maybe they're the descendants of some kind of noisy big cats a mad magician bred...and which drove him crazy due to hearing them all yowl every morning when they got hungry. That can wear down the sanity of anyone, even when it's just normal cats!

I would say +0. Magical Beast HD aren't the biggest burden in the world (they're some bonus feats away from being fighter levels with high reflex saves) and, well, would you rather have four feats or +8/+6/+16/-4/+2/+6, let alone fast healing 3 and miss chance 20%? I reckon that with a decent way of drawing aggro or doing damage or BFC from your class, you could make this work pretty decently. Built half-decently, it would pull its weight, I'd think.

Compared to a fighter. Which isn't a terrible point of comparison, given how many fighters are running around in practice, but it's not a great one.

...but big numbers simply aren't enough to compete anymore at this level (and arguably, they weren't for up to twenty levels before either).

I disagree. Put the gerivar's numbers on a 6th- or 10th-level PC, and you'd probably be pretty effective. Not +15 or +20 LA effective, but effective.

[Jormengand]

Compared to a fighter. Which isn't a terrible point of comparison, given how many fighters are running around in practice, but it's not a great one.

To be clear, it wouldn't "Pull its weight" compared to a fighter, it would "Unceremoniously wreck face" compared to a fighter: it's just better. Not, in the technical sense, strictly better, but just better. It would pull its weight in a T3-4 party, I'd think.

[liquidformat]

To be clear, it wouldn't "Pull its weight" compared to a fighter, it would "Unceremoniously wreck face" compared to a fighter: it's just better. Not, in the technical sense, strictly better, but just better. It would pull its weight in a T3-4 party, I'd think.

I disagree with you its only notable points are that it is an ok scout, its massive life, and displacement makes it harder to hit. At level 7 an ubercharger fighter is going to easily out damage it, a well built tripper is going to out damage it and out trip it, a swift hunter build will out scout it due to having dramatically more skill points and out damage it. A intimidation build barbarian will out damage it and out fear affect it. The Yowler just doesn't have anything great going for it except for its huge con mod and fast healing.

Let's look at some other similarly rhd monsters for a comparison. Yowler deals less damage and has far less mobility than a griffon or a wyvern while having similar number of skill points; any 5 to 7 level hydra is going to eat you for lunch if they can catch you though yowler has noticeably more skill points; Similarly the Girallon has fewer skill points but much better attack routine and should be able to due stuff like say open doors and hold weapons; The Lammasu is just hands down better in every way period; the Remorhaz does much better damage and with options like burrow and tremor sense is better as long as it is only destroying equipment during a 'rage'; Finally let's look at another tripper with one less RHD, the winter wolf, the winter wolf is hands down a better tripper, does more damage, its breath weapon gives it better in combat options, has more skill points, and can naturally talk. Across the board Yowler only really compares at all to the similarly RHD'ed monsters because its large life, that it is hard to hit, and the fact that yowl being a will save is still useful at these levels before fear immunity is common. I think the most notable comparison here is the winter wolf who's shtick is very similar but does it better and at 1 hd less that isn't a good sign. On a side note I find it strange that the yowler doesn't have scent which is also not a good thing and another tick against it in power.

Again this is an example of a monster that has survivability going for it but really nothing else and in this game where you aren't a threat being able to survive longer is not a bonus since no one cares and will just kill off the rest of the party before dealing with you.

[OgresAreCute]

On a side note I find it strange that the yowler doesn't have scent which is also not a good thing and another tick against it in power.

The stat block actually does include scent, but it's not included in the text. Guess some editor got lazy and forgot to write it down.

[liquidformat]

The stat block actually does include scent, but it's not included in the text. Guess some editor got lazy and forgot to write it down.

hmm interesting, I am away from my books so was looking at realms help which completely removed it and they didn't seem to catch that in the errata either.

[javcs]

Survivability is never a bad thing, but it only takes a character so far - if one cannot contribute in ways other than one's personal survivability, then one has minimal value.
The ability to tank without the ability to draw and hold aggro, nor the ability to make the enemy to pay for failing to kill you, is effectively a nonability.
That is, survivability without something else is only marginally useful, until/unless we are talking insane levels of survivability for relatively low cost. This is nowhere near the point where pure survivability has meaningful value - I mean, make it roughly as hard to kill as a tarrasque (say give it the defensive abilities) without any more RHD, then pure survivability might be able to carry it enough for class levels to take over.
Of course, pure survivability at worthwhile levels is likely to warrant a DM caution marker.



Honestly, though, this thing doesn't compare that well with a level 7 animal companion. It has slightly better type RHD, and a bad active ability that stops it from attacking.

[liquidformat]

Honestly, though, this thing doesn't compare that well with a level 7 animal companion. It has slightly better type RHD, and a bad active ability that stops it from attacking.

Ya the fact that yowler is outperformed in combat by a dire wolf and as a level 7 character I could have one as a mount/animal companion is a glaring issue. If you are outperformed by someone's mount/animal companion/familiar you are in for lots of problems.

[Blue Jay]

The stat block actually does include scent, but it's not included in the text. Guess some editor got lazy and forgot to write it down.

People on these boards are entirely too quick to denigrate the editors.

If you look at the various manuals, you'll see that Scent usually doesn't get a text entry for each monster: listing it only in the stat block is standard practice.

hmm interesting, I am away from my books so was looking at realms help which completely removed it and they didn't seem to catch that in the errata either.

Realms Help uses the "new" stat block format (which I don't like, personally). It has a "Senses" line near the top of the stat block, by "Initiative." That's where you'll find things like Scent.

[liquidformat]

Realms Help uses the "new" stat block format (which I don't like, personally). It has a "Senses" line near the top of the stat block, by "Initiative." That's where you'll find things like Scent.

Ya I really dislike the new stat block, why mess with something that works that and no one was complaining about. Then again that is Microsoft's mantra of design...

[danielxcutter]

An union of egoists would be interesting to play.

I suddenly want to play a swarm with Egoist levels.

[Nifft]

I suddenly want to play a swarm with Egoist levels.

"I'm Smarticus."

"No, I'm Smarticus."

"I'm Smarticus and so is my wife."

[javcs]

Ya I really dislike the new stat block, why mess with something that works that and no one was complaining about. Then again that is Microsoft's mantra of design...

To be fair, I think what they were trying to do was a decent enough idea - streamline the statblock and make it more userfriendly and easier to use on the fly, and to locate the same kind of thing in the same location in the statblock.
For example, in theory, parking the modifiers for Listen, Spot, and any special senses all in the same location, at the top of the statblock, instead of in multiple locations in the middle of the statblock, is something that should be an improvement.

In practice, though, if you're used to the older style statblock, switching back and forth between them can be a pain.

The "new" style stat block is also something that got employed in SAGA, 4e, and probably 5e. For that matter, I think Pathfinder borrowed it too.

[TotallyNotEvil]

I'll chime in for +0 on the Yowler.

It'd not be strongest, but it's easily playable as a decent beatstick with neat abilities and great survivability.

We've become far too used to "-0", I think. It was meant for things that are nigh on unplayable, or at least siginificantly weaker than their ECL.

The Yowler is neither.

[Blue Jay]

To be fair, I think what they were trying to do was a decent enough idea - streamline the statblock and make it more userfriendly and easier to use on the fly, and to locate the same kind of thing in the same location in the statblock.
For example, in theory, parking the modifiers for Listen, Spot, and any special senses all in the same location, at the top of the statblock, instead of in multiple locations in the middle of the statblock, is something that should be an improvement.

In practice, though, if you're used to the older style statblock, switching back and forth between them can be a pain.

The "new" style stat block is also something that got employed in SAGA, 4e, and probably 5e. For that matter, I think Pathfinder borrowed it too.

It's not a "bad" format, it's just less familiar to me, like you said. It's good for quick lookup and reference (once you've gotten used to it), but it seems easier to customize and modify monsters using the old format.

To try to be on topic, the geriviar's flavor of a four-armed giant with exploding warts is kind of interesting (I always like things with multiple arms), but like most of the giants, I think it would probably be fine to let a player just play an ogre with a few modifications for LA +1 or something.