The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

[Luckmann]

Heh, good thing I saw this before starting a thread on Level Adjustment for Lantern Archons.

That said, my question is truthfully only tangentially related, but I consider it in the same realm, so I hope that it's OK that I ask it here.

I stumbled across this thread ("LA for a Lantern Archon"), and while the general consensus appears to be "+0", my real question is actually: How did they reach that conclusion on the stats?

The mods are listed as -10 Str, -4 Int, and I have no idea why.

I apologize if this isn't 100% related to the topic, but with such a minor question and the original naming of that thread, I thought it better I use this thread than to start a new thread. If it's inappropriate, just tell me to butt out and I'll start a separate thread.

[AuraTwilight]

Because when you read a monster statblock you're supposed to assume that the monster has average ability scores (10 or 11) with racial modifiers applied. That's how every single playable monster got officially converted, so it's clearly a rule. And when building monsters, there's rules for making them Elite by giving them a genuine ability score array and THEN applying their ability modifiers.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Is there even a single giant that is not a beatstick? It is the beatstickiest race in the game! The giant is the quintessential beatstick.

Ogre mages nominally aren't pure beatsticks.

Even when I'm strong enough that dragons become a mere speed bumps, I still excersize[sic] extreme caution with giants.

Maybe I'm biased, but that doesn't sound right.

Oh, I don't know about that - there's nothing indicating how long using Cannibalize takes. Might be able to make an interesting scenario out of trying to stop dusk giants before they eat enough to grow bigger.

Could make an interesting action/horror movie concept, and potentially a neat encounter—lots of helpless civilians around that the monster can use to heal and buff itself. Also something that could go monstrously out of control if the PCs got some bad rolls and let the monster eat too many.

[Celestia]

Ogre mages nominally aren't pure beatsticks.

True, but they're ogres, not giants.

[3WhiteFox3]

True, but they're ogres, not giants.

Size/Type: Large Giant

Are you sure about that?

(Emphasis Mine)

[zergling.exe]

Are you sure about that?

(Emphasis Mine)

It's a joke that they are not giants like a cloud or storm giant.

[Inevitability]

Golem, Cadaver

Another monster to continue the book's delightful trend of 'guess what type this is'. The name gives away these are constructs, but I could easily see people mistake those for undead based solely on the description.

Let's start with the worst part: 10 construct HD. 3/4th BAB could be worse, and d10 HD is pretty good, but the lack of skills and saving throws are very annoying.

Cadaver golems are Large, with ogre-level strength and average or slightly above-average scores in all other stats. They have a considerable amount of natural armor (+10), as well as DR 5/adamantine, giving them at least some defenses to make up for their lack of a constitution modifier (30 bonus HP are decent at ECL 10, but they steadily drop in quality). Speed is average.

Fortunately, these guys can explicitly wield weapons! Sadly, by RAW they're only proficient with bastard swords, meaning a level or feat tax is required for them to be actually competent warriors.

A cadaver golem's most interesting ability is Assimilate Flesh, which allows it to stitch others' body parts to itself. This way, the golem can heal damage (useful, as it is otherwise unable to do so), swap skill ranks around (again, very useful if you regularly face skillful opponents), and possibly gain access to supernatural or extraordinary abilities. The last part is especially interesting, as it allows your golem to have stuff like Cunning Brilliance or Island In Time. You could even decide to abandon being a construct (while RAW keeping your construct traits), by taking something like Alien Transcendence.

Most of the really overpowered stuff (like spellcasting) is unavailable, so I'm not sure if an asterisk is required here.

Finally, there's the standard golem magic immunity, with the catches being that cadaver golems get Slowed by healing spells (problematic, as those are common), while a Regenerate spell damages them and locks special abilities away for a while.

So what LA to give? I'm leaning either towards a +0 (or maybe +1) if Assimilate Flesh is considered balanced, and -0* if it's not. For now I'll go with +0, but I'm very interested in how the community feels about this.

[No brains]

The madness of Assimilate Flesh is why I suggested this book. Look at those LA scores! -0*, +0, and +1! This is either a great monster to play as or a horrible monster and it's really hard to tell which!

I probably lack the high-level system experience to make the most informed call, but +0 seems fine to me. No asterisk needed. The DM can manage available body parts exactly the same way they would manage loot. It might make for a boring adventure, but it allows a balanced one.

[GreatWyrmGold]

If I'm not missing something, the cadaver golem can only gain a few sensory abilities and some class features through Assimilate Flesh. Cunning Brilliance and Island in Time don't seem to be on the approved list. Am I missing something?

[White Blade]

Would I take ten levels in a class that gave me:
+1 Damage and Attack in Melee every other level
Immunity to Magic
The ability to switch around one skill after fighting a humanoid
2+INT skills at maximum rank
3/4 BAB
Construct Immunities (Ability damage/drain, energy drain, death effects, stunning, sleep, mind affecting)
The single best ability from any single humanoid I killed.

Yeah, probably. All those immunities will be invaluable. I'm not sure I would take more though.

Cadaver Golem 10/Ur-Priest 10 would be a fun and flavorful match, a blasphemous creation taking from the bodies of the living and the souls of the gods. I could even pick up extra turning from a cleric, not that I could DMM persist anything on myself.

Edit: All your spells are also very dispel-able. You could tick up the LA+1 if this level of spell power is uncomfortable, because it would be a struggle to get ninth level spells that way. You can't get inherent bonuses from manual, I think.

[ViperMagnum357]

mmmh...I would be inclined to -0 at a snap judgment-construct traits are good, 10 RHD worth is really bad. Natural AC of +10 would be the bare minimum for 10 RHD, and the ability score adjustments are well below reasonable. It gets lesser Spell Immunity which is the worst of both worlds-still affected by many spells, lose access to many buffs, and every cure spell is a nasty debuff going all the way down to access at first level Cleric.

Assimilate Flesh is really wonky-swapping skill points around is of minimal usefulness on atrocious RHD, while the creature already has Darkvision and Blindsense is easily gained. A full round action to heal 2d8+5 damage if you have a corpse is not selling me at minimum ECL 10, either. Evasion and Fast Movement are likely to be gained through equipment if you do not get them in your build, and 1 and 2 level dips make them paltry investments in Gestalt.

On the other hand, the poor wording makes me wonder-based on the description, you could seek out the hands of an optimized, Epic Rogue build and grab 20+ Sneak Attack dice, or an Epic Ranger's huge suite of Favored Enemies. The others are not really worth it, but I am wondering if an asterisk is appropriate. How powerful are those particular abilities considered? At a minimum, you have the same problem as an Illithid Savant where your mechanical abilities are dependent on the sorts of enemies and NPCs your DM chooses to use.

If your DM is not particularly permissive and basically restricts you to level appropriate NPCs without optimization specifically geared towards your use, I am leaning towards LA +0. Adding 3 Favored enemies or 5d6 Sneak Attack is not enough to save you from 10 Construct RHD, and that leaves you in a hole deep enough that even upgrading them based on your ECL is not going to right the ship before Epic, where all bets are off.

So, I guess I will stick with LA +0.

[Mike Miller]

I agree with the +0 for this one. It reminds me of illithid savant except less useful

[Morphic tide]

Hmm... Given the situations that they're likely to see PC use in, I'll give them LA +1. Because they're Never Lawful and Usually Evil, as well as being a variant flesh golem, so they're very, very likely to be in a party that sees little problem with locating moderately high level Rogues, Rangers and others with the express intent to kill them for their Golem buddy to assimilate abilities from. Or gutter trash to assimilate their skills, see below.

They also get that health without needing to shift skills, so every fresh corpse found is 2d8+5 HP. This means that they'll easily have quite a bit of self healing to work with, at least when dealing with Humanoid opponent groups. Also, the skill acquisition is increasing by up to how many they had, not to the limit they had, and very importantly it uses the class skill limit, meaning the lack of class skills is bypassed so long as you find enough corpses. This means that they could kill Rogues with total ranks in Move Silently equal to its HD+3 (wonderful to not be RHD, so it scales) and get to its maximum that way, instead of finding a single Rogue with 13 ranks in Move Silently.

[Falontani]

I wonder what book Inevitability will do next; I hope a MM or Libris Mortis. There are just so many good creatures out there!

[TotallyNotEvil]

I don't get the part where a bastard sword isn't a decent weapon?

If you get the proficiency for free, might as well.

[Jormengand]

I don't get the part where a bastard sword isn't a decent weapon?

If you get the proficiency for free, might as well.

It certainly wouldn't be a particularly useful weapon to get proficiency for (I'd rather use a greatsword because TWF, S&B and Einhander are all bad) but yeah, it's not like only being proficient in bastard swords and not greatswords is particularly damning.

[Nifft]

I don't get the part where a bastard sword isn't a decent weapon?

If you get the proficiency for free, might as well.

Some people seem to be doing a weird thing where they judge the race as if it never got even one class level.

You're absolutely right that a free exotic weapon proficiency is worth something, particularly if you're taking a class that would grant all martial weapon proficiencies.

[Morphic tide]

It certainly wouldn't be a particularly useful weapon to get proficiency for (I'd rather use a greatsword because TWF, S&B and Einhander are all bad) but yeah, it's not like only being proficient in bastard swords and not greatswords is particularly damning.

Erm... You can use Bastard Swords as one or two handed weapons as you please, and the 1 damage on average really doesn't matter. And the ability to snag Sneak Attack, Favored Enemy or Rage means two weapon fighting is moderately useful as you get per-attack damage bonuses, making more attacks deal more damage than stronger attacks.

[Inevitability]

I mentioned the (likely) possibility of a cadaver golem taking a class level to gain new proficiencies, but it's still a restriction on build possibilities. Cadaver golems, depending on what weapons they want to use, may not be able to jump straight into a prestige class, and for that reason alone I figured I should mention it.

[Jormengand]

Erm... You can use Bastard Swords as one or two handed weapons as you please, and the 1 damage on average really doesn't matter.

Just as well that's pretty much entirely what I said. Greatswords are better at doing greatswords' jobs, and bastard swords' other jobs aren't worth doing, but it's not like getting bastard sword proficiency instead of greatsword proficiency is really damning.

(Also, 1.5 damage, but that's entirely not the point.)

[javcs]

I think Cadaver Golems are probably either a +0* or a -0*.
Assimilate Flesh is really swingy and both DM- and campaign-dependent. With a permissive DM, who allows you to track down fellows with the abilities you want without major issues, it's pretty good, but if the DM or campaign doesn't really allow for easy and/or uninhibited acquisitions, while it's still useful, it's a lot less flexible. It also varies based on just how much the DM will let you grab, whether you're stuck with the explicit list, or if expanding beyond that list is allowed.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Would I take ten levels in a class that gave me:
+1 Damage and Attack in Melee every other level
Immunity to Magic
The ability to switch around one skill after fighting a humanoid
2+INT skills at maximum rank
3/4 BAB
Construct Immunities (Ability damage/drain, energy drain, death effects, stunning, sleep, mind affecting)
The single best ability from any single humanoid I killed.

Let's compare this guy to a fighter.

On one hand, the fighter has more BAB, a crapton of feats, and a Constitution score. (Also easier entry into many relevant prestige classes.) On the other hand, the golem has high Strength, some solid immunities, a few bonus hit points, and the ability to be more versatile at something he's not likely to ever be good at. Also, instead of healing from positive energy like a normal adventurer, it heals by basically eating corpses, which is basically a wash if you have enough people you don't mind killing. (You're not limited by spell slots, but rather by how many people you can be bothered to slaughter...and if you can do so without taking more than 2d8+5 damage.)


Overall, I'd say that the golem is a bit worse than the fighter at beatstickery (it's not hard to get that kind of strength or equivalent attack/damage boosts through other means), but has a little more versatility. Not that it'll ever be very good at the things it picks up, mind.
And changing abilities/skills will be tricky—first you need to figure out where a person with the right stuff is, then you have to find them, then you have to kill them. That's basically a sidequest all its own, and probably not one your (likely evil) party will appreciate you taking. Practically speaking, either you need to take what you run into, or you need to stick with one ability anyways.

It's the kind of thing I'd play because it sounds neat and unique, not because it's powerful.

[Inevitability]

Gray Jester

Gray jesters are 8 HD medium-sized fey, currently in possession of a hefty LA of +2.

They receive considerable bonuses to dexterity and charisma, as well as smaller ones to intelligence and constitution. They have no natural armor, but do have a +2 deflection bonus to AC, which I suppose is somewhat more useful. Thanks to their land speed of 50 ft., they're far faster than most earthbound creatures at this level.

Defensively, gray jesters have a reasonable DR 10/cold iron, as well as SR 18. However, these two numbers are lowered considerably (to DR 5 and SR 12) if the jester uses its Empathic Feeding ability: a (Su) that lets it drain some charisma from nearby laughing or joyous humanoids.

Normally, draining 1d4 charisma from a very select group of creatures as a standard action wouldn't be very useful. However, all creatures with less HD than the jester that are completely drained of charisma by this ability become its servants (to a limit of four times the jester's HD). In theory, that means every gray jester can be running around with a party of equally-leveled adventurers under its control, but to me that's like saying Charm Animal is overpowered because battletitans exist.

A final thing of note is the jester's scepter, which is a finessable weapon that deals 1d4 points of (probably bludgeoning) damage and also causes a Tasha's Hideous Laughter effect on everybody it hits. Because it uses the SLA formula, it's DC will be very low (12 + charisma modifier), and because almost nothing you ever use it on will be a fey, creatures will receive a further +4 bonus on their saving throws.

Considering this, gray jesters are semi-useful charisma drainers who can maybe even pull off a niche flurry build to try and affect some foes with what's despite everything still a save-or-lose, but given the lack of potential targets to dominate and the general uselessness of their scepter, I'll go with a +0 here for now.

[Nifft]

I'm trying to figure out a decent build for the Grey Jester.

8 HD of non-casting with half-BAB hurts a lot.

I guess you could do something with Warblade -> Stormguard Warrior (touch attacks with the scepter for Tasha's Hideous Laughter), but losing those 4 BAB means that idea can't come together until 12 HD total -- and you'll never get Time Stands Still, which is usually a great capstone to Stormguard Warrior (ab)use.

It's too bad the scepter touch attacks don't also deal some small damage. A touch-attack build based around Sneak Attack might have been viable.


So, what's left? Just the thralls, I guess. And the thralls are great -- if your DM gives you great thralls.

Verdict: LA +0* (DM buy-in needed)

[Celestia]

I really don't think the asterisk is necessary here. It's supposed to be an indication of things that are uncertain, broken, or potentially abusable, not things that need DM help to be viable. In fact, we already have a symbol just for that situation: -0.

And I do think this is -0. The main ability, hordes of mooks, is dependant upon the charisma drain which is, itself, dependant upon the Hideous Laughter. A non-scaling DC of 15 with a +4 bonus to the opponent is not good. Even the most vulnerable of enemies at this level will still be making that save more often than not, and that only gets worse as you progress. It won't be long until virtually everything you encounter will only be failing on a 1. Your main ability will be a small bonus you occasionally get lucky enough to use. And, what else is there? Mediocre defenses, poor BAB, 1d4 damage. It's very nearly garbage with no good path of advancement. The only way this thing is accomplishing anything is with DM leniency in regards to the laughter/charisma drain.

[Nifft]

uncertain, broken, or potentially abusable

"Say hello to my little friends."

Eat 32 Lantern Archon light beams during the surprise round.

This thing could be Thrallherd on steroids, and that does mean uncertain, broken, or potentially abusable.

Asterisk is exactly correct.

[ViperMagnum357]

8 Fey RHD puts the kibosh to any martial build, and the mediocre mental bonuses for 8HD make them unappetizing as casters, even moving into Epic where you can complete your initial spell allotment. That leaves Skill Monkey, and looking for unusual PRCs where you can stack debuffs onto strikes with a unique weapon, so you can do something in combat. 50 ft speed is great at medium size biped, but only a net +24 for 8 RHD is hard to justify, especially with no Natural AC. +2 Deflection is initially great, but as you get into the teens you will want to overlay that with a larger bonus from an item or spell, reducing it to a curiosity. Static SR is bleh, for reasons expounded upon many times before. The DR is useful but not awesome-single spell bypass and not much to begin with, but still worth something against most opponents.

And seriously? No skill bonuses on something with Fey RHD, no spellcasting and minimal combat damage output? The Fey HD really hurts in other ways-putting yourself 4 BAB behind leaves very little build room to snag the third iterative you will need, and most of the PRCs with abilities dovetailing your touch attack are medium BAB at best.

As for Bleak Ones; this is the only reason you would play a Gray Jester, so I think the LA should reflect a reasonable entourage with the Jester generally trying to keep a group of 4 similarly leveled NPCs with class levels in tow. 4x Leadership with no followers but the Cohorts up to your own level...an entire extra PC group for one of your players, I am not sure that can be balanced at all. This is definitely going to need an asterisk by RAW-I just see no way of balancing that without DM fiat.

Initial verdict: LA +1* if the DM restricts Bleak Ones to NPC classes, since that amounts to a free Skill Monkey (Expert), Utility Caster (Adept), and 2 subpar animal companions (Warriors). Very good, and more than making up for a weak chassis with bad RHD, but highly dependent on spreading equipment around your cohorts and digging up weird PRCs to make the most of the creature's weak bonuses otherwise.

LA -* (Unsuitable for PC) if not restricted to NPC classes, for every argument against Leadership x4.

[Morphic tide]

I'll go for LA +0*, myself, because, while it does require some DM buy-in, that buy-in has to be done extremely carefully or else they start breaking things with minions. Even without any DM buy-in, the staff almost guarantees that they'll get minions of some kind at some point, especially if they grab a flurry build or have a party with good restraining capacity willing to burn resources on acquisition of a permanent minion.

Although this might be LA -0 due to the minions counting towards the party's total ECL for XP. That's an explicit clause for Cohorts in Leadership, IIRC. Impressively, it's still usable at LA +2 with the right optimization picks and party support. If only the Laughter wasn't on an unpriced item, then that DC could be improved rather significantly. With a price, it could be upgraded by the party Wizard or Artificer to have a better DC with minimal fudging, while being an inherent ability of the Jester would let it be subject to Ability Focus. As-is, it has an effective DC of 11, so you need some damn heavy support to get anywhere with it.

[Nifft]

If only the Laughter wasn't on an unpriced item, then that DC could be improved rather significantly. With a price, it could be upgraded by the party Wizard or Artificer to have a better DC with minimal fudging, while being an inherent ability of the Jester would let it be subject to Ability Focus. As-is, it has an effective DC of 11, so you need some damn heavy support to get anywhere with it.

I suspect the trick is to get yourself four Bleak Wizard pets (each one of a level equal to your HD) who can spam hideous laughter instead of trying to apply the effect yourself.

Unfortunately you can't make use of typical Bards or Sorcerers, just Clerics / Druids / Wizards (and other lesser classes).

[javcs]

I'm leaning towards -0*, as there isn't much you can do without the Bleak Ones.