One of the most powerfull enemies until now

[D.One]

Just comparing, Durkon*/Greg is a 14th or 15th level cleric and a vampire, wich gives him CR 17 (if we assume Cleric 15) and Effective Character Level 23.

Meanwhile, this guy is a Frost Giant/Cleric 11+ (in order to cast Blade Barrier), which means he's CR 20+, and has an ECL of 29+. V and Haley surely gained a lot of XP there.

[TIPOT]

You are calculating the CR incorrectly. As explained here you only add a 1/2 CR for non-associated class levels. A Frost giant is CR9 with 14 racial HD, so a level 14 Frost Giant Cleric would be CR 16.

[D.One]

You are calculating the CR incorrectly. As explained here you only add a 1/2 CR for non-associated class levels. A Frost giant is CR9 with 14 racial HD, so a level 14 Frost Giant Cleric would be CR 16.

True. So, a Frost Giant CLR 11 would be CR 14 or 15, even if it still is ECL 29

[georgie_leech]

You are calculating the CR incorrectly. As explained here you only add a 1/2 CR for non-associated class levels. A Frost giant is CR9 with 14 racial HD, so a level 14 Frost Giant Cleric would be CR 16.

Which always struck me as a bit odd, really. Like, it seems like a Human Cleric 20 would be a bit weaker than a Frost Giant Cleric 20, but the former would be CR 20 while the latter is CR 19. It seems like after some point, the class should start mattering more than what you're stapling it to.

[Jasdoif]

Which always struck me as a bit odd, really. Like, it seems like a Human Cleric 20 would be a bit weaker than a Frost Giant Cleric 20, but the former would be CR 20 while the latter is CR 19. It seems like after some point, the class should start mattering more than what you're stapling it to.

It explicitly does, as the quoted link mentions:

Nonassociated Class Levels

If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by ½ per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1.

A frost giant has 14 hit dice; once you have more than 14 class levels, the additional class levels are associated and so give full CR. A Frost Giant Cleric 20 is CR 9(base)+7(14 unassociated class levels)+6(6 associated class levels), for a final CR of 22.

[D.One]

What strikes me as odd is that this associated/not associated premisse doesn't apply to classes. For example, a Barbarian 10 that gets 2 levels of Sorcerer doesn't consider this Sorcerer levels as "not associated", so he has the same CR 12 as a Barbarian 12.

Edit:

PS: On an extreme example, a Fighter 3/Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Rogue 3 is at the same CR 12 as a Cleric 12, for example, and the danger each one poses is completely different.

[137beth]

What strikes me as odd is that this associated/not associated premisse doesn't apply to classes. For example, a Barbarian 10 that gets 2 levels of Sorcerer doesn't consider this Sorcerer levels as "not associated", so he has the same CR 12 as a Barbarian 12.

Edit:

PS: On an extreme example, a Fighter 3/Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Rogue 3 is at the same CR 12 as a Cleric 12, for example, and the danger each one poses is completely different.

And a Fighter 12 and Cleric 12 are the same CR despite not posing anywhere near the same threat. At the end of the day, the CR system is an approximation.

[georgie_leech]

It explicitly does, as the quoted link mentions:

A frost giant has 14 hit dice; once you have more than 14 class levels, the additional class levels are associated and so give full CR. A Frost Giant Cleric 20 is CR 9(base)+7(14 unassociated class levels)+6(6 associated class levels), for a final CR of 22.

...somehow I completely missed that all this time

[Sloanzilla]

this thread fully captures why I hate exp formulas and just eyeball it

[Honest Tiefling]

this thread fully captures why I hate exp formulas and just eyeball it

Maybe Haley and Elan didn't do the math correctly and therefore got the wrong amount of experience?

[SirKazum]

What strikes me as odd is that this associated/not associated premisse doesn't apply to classes. For example, a Barbarian 10 that gets 2 levels of Sorcerer doesn't consider this Sorcerer levels as "not associated", so he has the same CR 12 as a Barbarian 12.

Edit:

PS: On an extreme example, a Fighter 3/Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Rogue 3 is at the same CR 12 as a Cleric 12, for example, and the danger each one poses is completely different.

I guess class level CR assumes all NPCs have roughly the same level of optimization, so all NPCs of the same level are the same threat (then again, the difference between ECL and CR throws a wrench into that calculus as well). Which, of course, is extremely hard to accomplish, especially if you've got any amount of variety, but still. You gotta have *some* standard.

[zimmerwald1915]

Maybe Haley and Elan didn't do the math correctly and therefore got the wrong amount of experience?

That would explain Haley being the highest level member of the party at this point.

[D.One]

That would explain Haley being the highest level member of the party at this point.

Haley is 16th or 17th level?

[Emanick]

Haley is 16th or 17th level?

Yeah, she's level 16 according to the Class and Level Geekery thread. Of course, V is also level 16, so Haley no longer seems to be the highest-level character.

[Chronos]

Even with non-associated class levels eventually becoming associated, you can still get some odd cases where a monster has a lower CR than a human of the same character level (especially when the monster has a lot of HD for its CR, like dragons). But it doesn't really matter, because calculating CR is something only DMs do, and no rule is binding on the DM, so the DM can just houserule any such situations that don't make sense, as well as manually adjusting CRs for things like caster advantage.

[Quartz]

Haley is 16th or 17th level?

Haley is definitely at least 16th level and probably - but not definitely - 17th level. Not only did she get a lot of XP from the giants but she also got a lot of XP from defeating Crystal and Bozzok. And Bozzok was level 19 or 20 at the time, depending upon whether Haley was then level 15 or 16 because he could Sneak Attack her. That's assuming Haley is a pure Rogue, of course.

[D.One]

Haley is definitely at least 16th level and probably - but not definitely - 17th level. Not only did she get a lot of XP from the giants but she also got a lot of XP from defeating Crystal and Bozzok. And Bozzok was level 19 or 20 at the time, depending upon whether Haley was then level 15 or 16 because he could Sneak Attack her. That's assuming Haley is a pure Rogue, of course.

As far as we know, Haley has always been a full Rogue. Unfortunately, It's ver difficult to diferentiate Rogue 16 from Rogue 17 (same Base Attack, same saves, no new special ability). Unless she makes a direct comment about her level, or about her +9d6 Sneak Attack, I think it will not be possible to pinpoint her level beetween 16 or 17. (or maybe about her 20 ranks in some skill)

[Snails]

Even with non-associated class levels eventually becoming associated, you can still get some odd cases where a monster has a lower CR than a human of the same character level (especially when the monster has a lot of HD for its CR, like dragons). But it doesn't really matter, because calculating CR is something only DMs do, and no rule is binding on the DM, so the DM can just houserule any such situations that don't make sense, as well as manually adjusting CRs for things like caster advantage.

IIRC, the difference is that humanoid NPCs of similar level could have more magic items, and thus are a bit less predictable. That does not matter if the DM just rolls up a random creature to kill for that door the party just kicked in; in such a braindead scenario the extra options from magic items is just extra loot, unless the DM cleverly games the system with an NPC who burns through powerful scrolls.

[TRH]

Haley is definitely at least 16th level and probably - but not definitely - 17th level. Not only did she get a lot of XP from the giants but she also got a lot of XP from defeating Crystal and Bozzok. And Bozzok was level 19 or 20 at the time, depending upon whether Haley was then level 15 or 16 because he could Sneak Attack her. That's assuming Haley is a pure Rogue, of course.

I was under the impression that Haley was thought to be level 14 back in Greysky City when Bozzok sneak attacked her, which would put Bozzok at 18+, but I don't remember. If I'm right, though, that doesn't say anything about what, if any, levels he gained between then and Tinkertown.

[Snails]

One of the factors pushing up Haley's level to 15 is the number of arrows she launches in a round which is 4 as of....uh, can't remember. She presumably has Rapid Shot for an extra one per round. But to get 3 requires BAB +11, which means 15 rogue levels for a pure Rogue.

Of course, she could have been Hasted or have Boots of Speed, which we could have not been mentioned. I do expect her to be flinging 5 arrows per round in the grand finale by some means.

[Emanick]

One of the factors pushing up Haley's level to 15 is the number of arrows she launches in a round which is 4 as of....uh, can't remember. She presumably has Rapid Shot for an extra one per round. But to get 3 requires BAB +11, which means 15 rogue levels for a pure Rogue.

Of course, she could have been Hasted or have Boots of Speed, which we could have not been mentioned. I do expect her to be flinging 5 arrows per round in the grand finale by some means.

According to C&LG, she demonstrates leveling to 15 in #648, which is the strip where she kills Crystal. So, very shortly after the battle with Bozzok. That puts Bozzok at a minimum level of 18.

[Quebbster]

According to C&LG, she demonstrates leveling to 15 in #648, which is the strip where she kills Crystal. So, very shortly after the battle with Bozzok. That puts Bozzok at a minimum level of 18.

That was after they raided Grubwiggler's Place and got the bone golem formerly known as Roy back though. I haven't read about that (stupid bonus material), but isn't it possible she leveled up during that time?

[Quartz]

As far as we know, Haley has always been a full Rogue. Unfortunately, It's ver difficult to diferentiate Rogue 16 from Rogue 17

The fight with the Frost Giants seemed to indicate that she was 17th level. But that was considering average damage & HP. So it wasn't definitive.

[D.One]

That was after they raided Grubwiggler's Place and got the bone golem formerly known as Roy back though. I haven't read about that (stupid bonus material), but isn't it possible she leveled up during that time?

That's mostly the assumption. In order to Sneak Attack Crystal 4 times, Haley was probably using Rapid Shot (since Manyshot only allows 1 sneak attack damage) to gain 1 extra attack. She must have 3 normal attacks, wich means BAB +11 at least, which means Rogue 15 at least when she killed Crystal.

Since she had just had two big battles, agains Bozzok & Co. and the rescue in Grubwiggler's Castle, she might have gained a level during such encounters, and might have been Rogue 14 when she fought Bozzok. As such, she would have Improved Uncanny Dodge, which "denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does". So, Bozzok should be at least 18th level to sneak attack her by flanking.

Unless we consider she was 13th level during the Bozzok fight, and that she gained 2 levels with that battle and the sidequest to rescue Roy's body. It's hard, but not impossible, since both fights were very difficult and agains some high CR enemies (most of the thieves were weak, but Bozzok is 4 higher than her level, Crystal is her level, and on Grubwiggler raid, he as at least a 13th level caster in order to cast the Limited Wish needed for Flesh golens). In this case, Bozzok needed to be "only" 17th level to sneak attack her.

[Turin_19]

As far as we know, Haley has always been a full Rogue.

Question: why by the end of the battle of Azure City, Durkon tells Elan: "she's more capable of surviving in the city for 24 months than you are for 24 hours, fancy sh'mancy prestige class 'na withstandin'"

I didn't reference the strip back, that's why it might not be exactly as it should be.

[D.One]

Question: why by the end of the battle of Azure City, Durkon tells Elan: "she's more capable of surviving in the city for 24 months than you are for 24 hours, fancy sh'mancy prestige class 'na withstandin'"

I didn't reference the strip back, that's why it might not be exactly as it should be.

I believe Durkon is talking about Elan's Dashing Swordman prestige class. It makes more sense in the context of his speech.

[Turin_19]

I believe Durkon is talking about Elan's Dashing Swordman prestige class. It makes more sense in the context of his speech.

Context

Actually, I believe 'fancy shmancy' means something close to 'very nice', like, 'that very nice prestige class at withstanding'. And Haley is really good at surviving, but I don't see Elan the same.

[Bavarian itP]

It makes more sense in the context of his speech.

That's like saying "The planet Jupiter is larger than a duck." Of course he talks about Elan's PrC here. Everything else makes zero sense.

[Turin_19]

That's like saying "The planet Jupiter is larger than a duck." Of course he talks about Elan's PrC here. Everything else makes zero sense.

Are you being ironic?

[Fyraltari]

Actually, I believe 'fancy shmancy' means something close to 'very nice', like, 'that very nice prestige class at withstanding'. And Haley is really good at surviving, but I don't see Elan the same.

"Notwihtstanding : without being prevented by (something) : despite — used to say that something happens or is true even though there is something that might prevent it from happening or being true

Notwithstanding their youth and inexperience, the team won the championship."

She's more capable of surviving in the city for 24 hours than you are for 24 rounds, fancy shmancy prestige class notwithstanding." = "Despite the prestige class, she is more, ..."

We know that Elan has a fancy prestige class, we don't know that Haley has and it would be a terrible place to introduce it.

He is talking about Dashing Swordsman.