Mordenkainen's Tome: what monsters are in it?

[Beechgnome]

Well, this thread is pretty much wrapped up folks. The same guy on Twitter posted the monster list by challenge rating.

The major takeaways:

more Yugoloths than I was expecting and more ogres and trolls too, but not much else we didn't already have.

And for the mild disappointments, lots of deposed devils and lieutenants and Arch-Dukes but Zariel is the only one of the nine who appears to have made the cut. And as far as I can tell, Phoenix is the only celestial and the Marut did not appear to bring it's Inevitable friends.

Major spoiler: https://twitter.com/fistfullofdice/s...328820224?s=21

[Envyus]

I thought "gish" started as a fan term derived from "gith", as most githyanki are magical swordsmen?

Nope the term gish was what the Githyanki Magic Knights were called. And fans eventually started using the term referring to any D&D Magic Knight.

[Envyus]

Strange that Oinoloth seems to be a Yugoloth on that chart.

[Millstone85]

Nope the term gish was what the Githyanki Magic Knights were called. And fans eventually started using the term referring to any D&D Magic Knight.

So it actually started as a gith gish. That must have been fun.

[Unoriginal]

Strange that Oinoloth seems to be a Yugoloth on that chart.

Why is that strange? All the references about him I've found said he was a Yugoloth, or at least has been one.

[Envyus]

Why is that strange? All the references about him I've found said he was a Yugoloth, or at least has been one.

It's strange cause the Oinoloth is a unique fiend, the title given to the one sitting in the throne of the Tower of Khin-Oin. The ruler of all Yugoloths in the Grey Wastes of Hades. Back in 1e the Holder of that title was Anthraxus a powerful Altraloth (An Altraloth is a unique Yugoloth like a Demon Lord or Duke of Hell). He was replaced by a powerful Ultroloth in 2e, but got the title back at the end of 3e if I recall correctly.

The thing that is strange is that the Oinoloth is listed as a CR 12 monster in that book, which is weaker then a normal Ultroloth.

Also for some reason the Piscoloth is in the book, which is kind of strange as it's the only notable Yugoloth missing.

[Millstone85]

My big disappointment is that star spawn seem to come in these five flavors:
* star spawn grue, CR 1/4
* star spawn mangler, CR 5
* star spawn hulk, CR 10
* star spawn seer, CR 13
* star spawn larva mage, CR 16

So yeah, it is these guys:

but with the sword-wielding one in the middle replaced by a larva mage. And that's it.

I knew about the ushemoi/foulspawn being star spawn now, but I was still hoping for things like the Maw of Acamar:

[Beechgnome]

It's strange cause the Oinoloth is a unique fiend, the title given to the one sitting in the throne of the Tower of Khin-Oin. The ruler of all Yugoloths in the Grey Wastes of Hades. Back in 1e the Holder of that title was Anthraxus a powerful Altraloth (An Altraloth is a unique Yugoloth like a Demon Lord or Duke of Hell). He was replaced by a powerful Ultroloth in 2e, but got the title back at the end of 3e if I recall correctly.

The thing that is strange is that the Oinoloth is listed as a CR 12 monster in that book, which is weaker then a normal Ultroloth.

Also for some reason the Piscoloth is in the book, which is kind of strange as it's the only notable Yugoloth missing.

Yeah I thought the Oinoloth was way too low on power. As far for Piscoloth... Well I had a notion to convert 1e fiends and was going to convert them when I realized all of their abilities (and appearance) had been assumed by the chuul, the aboleth servants. So they would either have to change them a lot or drop them. So I'm ok with that.

[Beechgnome]

Keeping with the fiend theme, a few thoughts:

They did a reasonable job of balancing the two sides of the blood war. In the MM devils were generally weaker than the demons, but they included more lower tier demons and higher tier devils, so it balances out.

There are now 29 non-named demons and 8 demon princes, 20 non-named devils and 6 Arch-Dukes/arch-devils, and 10 Yugoloths (up from 4).

Annoyingly, while they added 10 demons, not one is CR 1/2, so summon lesser demons still doesn't quite work as it should. They did add a CR 1/2 devil, the nupperibo, likely to troll Abyssal wizards.

[EvilAnagram]

Spoiler

Show

My big disappointment is that star spawn seem to come in these five flavors:
* star spawn grue, CR 1/4
* star spawn mangler, CR 5
* star spawn hulk, CR 10
* star spawn seer, CR 13
* star spawn larva mage, CR 16

So yeah, it is these guys:

but with the sword-wielding one in the middle replaced by a larva mage. And that's it.

I knew about the ushemoi/foulspawn being star spawn now, but I was still hoping for things like the Maw of Acamar:

Well, that sucks. I was hoping for a monstrosity that sucks the life out of the world around it, ravaging the countryside and heralding the end of times.

A kind of gross mook is a bit of a letdown. And they were on such a solid streak, too.

[Unoriginal]

So, the Ogre Howda is probably going to be an ogre carrying people on their back, right?

Well, that sucks. I was hoping for a monstrosity that sucks the life out of the world around it, ravaging the countryside and heralding the end of times.

Pretty sure the Nightwalker fits that bill. Most of it, at least.

[Millstone85]

Well, that sucks. I was hoping for a monstrosity that sucks the life out of the world around it, ravaging the countryside and heralding the end of times.

A kind of gross mook is a bit of a letdown. And they were on such a solid streak, too.

My sentiments exactly.

I hope they at least go back to their 3.5 art style.

[EvilAnagram]

Pretty sure the Nightwalker fits that bill. Most of it, at least.

True. It, at the very least, provides a solid template for an eldritch horror that rates about .8T on the Tarrasque scale of general destruction. The cool thing about star spawn was the variety of abilities and powers that they brought to that level of play, but having some solid damage dice and HP values makes it easy to homebrew.

Anyone else excited for the skull lord? I already homebrewed one to cap off a major dungeon a couple years ago, but I'm happy to see one in print.

[Beechgnome]

So, the Ogre Howda is probably going to be an ogre carrying people on their back, right?

I feel like the ogres and trolls are probably connected to the duergar: that the duergar have effectively contracted out some jobs in their war with the dwarves to some brutes.

The expanded duergar plus those high level constructs (cadaver collector, steel predator) would go nice in an Acheron campaign or adventure. Throw in hobgoblins, orcs, hellhounds, some Modrons mining nearby and some devils and Yugoloths working as mercs and you've got a nice mix for a 'go fetch this rare thing in the middle of a planar battlefield' adventure.

[Envyus]

The guy who got the book provided me with a picture of the Oinoloth.



That looks like Anthraxus.

[Beechgnome]

The guy who got the book provided me with a picture of the Oinoloth.



That looks like Anthraxus.

Yeah it is definitely modelled after him. So it is weird they are CR 12, the same as Arcana Loth and below Ultraloths. But I didn't follow much past 1e; when did the General of Gehenna become the top yugoloth? Perhaps the oino were demoted?

[Envyus]

Yeah it is definitely modelled after him. So it is weird they are CR 12, the same as Arcana Loth and below Ultraloths. But I didn't follow much past 1e; when did the General of Gehenna become the top yugoloth? Perhaps the oino were demoted?

The General of Gehenna is the ruler of the Yugoloths in Gehenna, the Oinoloth was the ruler of the Yugoloths in the Grey Wastes.

I also find it strange that the Piscoloth is the only notable Yugoloth I can think of that is missing.

[Beechgnome]

The General of Gehenna is the ruler of the Yugoloths in Gehenna, the Oinoloth was the ruler of the Yugoloths in the Grey Wastes.

I also find it strange that the Piscoloth is the only notable Yugoloth I can think of that is missing.

As I said earlier, all of the 1e's Piscoloth's abilities and many of its physical attributes were taken by the Chuul. When I did want them during a Gehenna side trip, I just used the Chuul stat block.

[Beechgnome]

Another thing I noticed: by page order, it seems like they have grouped the Phoenix in with the Leviathan, Tempest and Zaratan as an Elder Elemental. Which works if the Phoenix Sorcerer ever happens, but means that unless the CR 10 Eladrin are counted as celestial (which I doubt) then there are Zero celestials in the book. I suppose a hypothetical Guide to the Planes in 2020 will fill my Guardinal, Archon, Modron, Slaad fix.

[Millstone85]

Another thing I noticed: by page order, it seems like they have grouped the Phoenix in with the Leviathan, Tempest and Zaratan as an Elder Elemental.

You are right! It looks like the book goes:

Eladrin	Autumn eladrin	195
	Spring eladrin	196
	Summer eladrin	196
	Winter eladrin	197
Elder elementals	Leviathan	198
	Phoenix	199
	Elder tempest	200
	Zaratan	201
Elemental myrmidons	Air elemental myrmidon	202
	Earth elemental myrmidon	202
	Fire elemental myrmidon	203
	Water elemental myrmidon	203

Also, if the leviathan is water, the phoenix is fire and the tempest is air, then I guess the zaratan is considered an earth elemental now. I can see beauty in it being the land but living in water.

Which works if the Phoenix Sorcerer ever happens, but means that unless the CR 10 Eladrin are counted as celestial (which I doubt) then there are Zero celestials in the book.

Based on interviews, yeah, these eladrin are probably fey.

However, celestial CRs go as low as 2, and these eladrin's CR 10 puts them on the level of a deva, so they would work just fine as eladrin welcomed back in Arborea and granted the celestial type by Corellon.

[Envyus]

As I said earlier, all of the 1e's Piscoloth's abilities and many of its physical attributes were taken by the Chuul. When I did want them during a Gehenna side trip, I just used the Chuul stat block.

I feel they are decently distinctive.

Chuul


Piscoloth

[EvilAnagram]

I feel they are decently distinctive.

Spoiler

Show

Chuul


Piscoloth

Those look like two different interpretations of the same creature.

[Millstone85]

I watched the video Beechgnome linked to in another thread...

This YouTube link goes mostly page by page through the book if you have a magnifying glass. https://youtu.be/3bXPWbYAX4Q

and at 9:47 it looks like the 5e lore for inevitables is very different from previous editions.

First, inevitables are another creation of Primus. He made them "to bring order to dealings between planar folk".

Secondly, the Kolyarut is unique and found in Sigil's Hall of Concordance, where it chisels contracts onto sheets of gold.

Finally, a marut has nothing to do with the inevitability of death, other than its determination to kill you if you break the terms of the golden contract on its chest.

In itself, the new lore is okay. I especially like how it is apparently common even for yugoloths to enter inevitable-enforced contracts. It certainly could give a new flavor to pact magic.

But it is not the lawful-neutral grim reaper I was hoping for.

[EvilAnagram]

I watched the video Beechgnome linked to in another thread... and at 9:47 it looks like the 5e lore for inevitables is very different from previous editions.

The lore for the inevitables has changed in every edition. In 2e, Maruts were the servants of greater powers. They represented the will of whatever god they served, be it a god of death or love. In 3.5, they introduced other inevitables and defined them as the enforcers of "universal laws" as decreed by the cosmos itself. 4e Maruts were alone again, and they were cosmic mercenaries. Now, they're contract enforcers, keeping the tradition of not maintaining a consistent lore alive.

The real tragedy is that we no longer have massive, ebony-skinned enforcers appearing to make sure a god of love's will is enforced. It's the ultimate shotgun wedding.

[Beechgnome]

The important thing I learned from that video is that the Yagnoloth have one regular arm and one giant arm. Just like the old days.

[Envyus]

The important thing I learned from that video is that the Yagnoloth have one regular arm and one giant arm. Just like the old days.

That has pretty much always been their gimmick.

[Beechgnome]

That has pretty much always been their gimmick.

I know. It's just delightfully ridiculous.

[Millstone85]

The lore for the inevitables has changed in every edition. In 2e, Maruts were the servants of greater powers. They represented the will of whatever god they served, be it a god of death or love. In 3.5, they introduced other inevitables and defined them as the enforcers of "universal laws" as decreed by the cosmos itself. 4e Maruts were alone again, and they were cosmic mercenaries. Now, they're contract enforcers, keeping the tradition of not maintaining a consistent lore alive.

My bad. I didn't know about 2e, assumed that 3.5 was representative of old school lore, and chose to disregard 4e.

Ill-founded hopes aside, Kolyarut as a sort of mini-Primus in Sigil is really a great story hook.

[EvilAnagram]

My bad. I didn't know about 2e, assumed that 3.5 was representative of old school lore, and chose to disregard 4e.

Ill-founded hopes aside, Kolyarut as a sort of mini-Primus in Sigil is really a great story hook.

People tend to forget that third edition was a pretty big departure from AD&D. A new company had control of the game, and they made a ton of changes both to the lore and to the mechanics. Aside from introducing the Powers system, 4e isn't any more different from 3.5 than third was from AD&D.

[MeeposFire]

People tend to forget that third edition was a pretty big departure from AD&D. A new company had control of the game, and they made a ton of changes both to the lore and to the mechanics. Aside from introducing the Powers system, 4e isn't any more different from 3.5 than third was from AD&D.

On one hand I do realize that a lot of people that tend to post on boards like these started around the time of 3e or later so for them that is the old version of D&D but even still I agree with you a lot of people forget that the game lore has changed a lot even going up to 3e.