OOTS #1116 - The Discussion Thread

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Well, dang.

I wasn't expecting the bag of tricks, the giraffes, or the continued survival of Minrah.

This strip was a welcome surprise in a disheartening day. Thank you, Mr. Burlew.

[Kish]

Well, dang.

I wasn't expecting the bag of tricks, the giraffes, or the continued survival of Minrah.

"One of these things is not like the others, one of these things just doesn't belong..."

[Keltest]

From three books ago. And she hasn't appeared since Book 1.

I think she remains Evil, mind, but the best evidence for that is that she strongly considered burning people alive as disproportionate revenge for a quasi-imagined slight.

I mean, that's pretty strong evidence right there.

[Peelee]

Except there's no lack of evidence. She tried to murder her husband, planned a mass murder and is here because she wants to murder Durkon, a fact she has announced at least twice. Plus, Word of Giant that she's solidly CE.

Lack of evidence [for no longer being evil]. As you demonstrate, there is plenty of evidence that she was evil.

[Mandor]

Love it!!!

Greg's face is totally "Da Fu*??". And Army of Giraffes, while definitely an not expected, will make for good cannon fodder / mine detectors. And who knows. If they set off several flame wards, maybe they'll be good roasted for dinner.

[Fincher]

Are you suggesting that V employed brevity? Even inadvertently?

It seems like brevity was employed in general, except maybe for "The Corpse Formerly Known As Durkon", which if you remove the The Artist Formerly Known As Prince connection is close to a technical description, but I'd tend to think Vaarsuvius would have said Vampire instead of Corpse to be precise. Vaarsuvius employing humor or plays on words for me is more of a sticking point than brevity. It also seems like old school Vaarsuvius would have been unwilling to take part in naming altogether, so I could see her making a passing, not really interested attempt at helping without the social understanding to know why Greg might be a misguided choice.

[Rockphed]

I, personally, put Hilgya down as CN. The recent in-strip indications have all emphasized chaos, not evil; and also, being tempted to do evil is not the same as doing evil.

The "burn down the clan hall to get out of my marriage" is actually less evil than "murder my husband to get out of my marriage", if only because the people being targeted have a chance to survive. For all we know, she rejected the idea because it had too high a chance of actually killing one of her relatives directly (instead of indirectly by making them caveless). Nevertheless, she is probably still on the evil side of the CN/CE line.

[The_Weirdo]

Except there's no lack of evidence. She tried to murder her husband, planned a mass murder and is here because she wants to murder Durkon, a fact she has announced at least twice. Plus, Word of Giant that she's solidly CE.

No, Word of Giant said that she was CE back then.

Now, she may or not still be CE, but having (and then abandoning due to impracticality) the idea of burning the clan hall down with her entire clan (minus her and Kudzu) inside after what they did to her isn't an Evil act.

[Ironsmith]

No, Word of Giant said that she was CE back then.

Now, she may or not still be CE, but having (and then abandoning due to impracticality) the idea of burning the clan hall down with her entire clan (minus her and Kudzu) inside after what they did to her isn't an Evil act.

I agree that she's still CE, but she's practical CE. There's no indication she has any moral qualms about inflicting a familicide (compare V, who WoG states is True Neutral, and regretted the act after it was done), but only decided against it because burning down the clan hall would be detrimental to Kudzu's health (showing concern for another person is innately good in of itself, but still doesn't really outweigh the moral ramifications of a familicide). She did still decide to inflict her clan with destitution, though, which is arguably worse in an honor-based society like the Dwarves, since they're probably going to eventually die and live in shame and squalor in the meantime.

[Kish]

Well, it was a nice thread while it lasted.

[Ironsmith]

Well, it was a nice thread while it lasted.

...Did I miss something?

[The_Weirdo]

She did still decide to inflict her clan with destitution, though, which is arguably worse in an honor-based society like the Dwarves, since they're probably going to eventually die and live in shame and squalor in the meantime.

Okay: disregarding the fact that it was instrumental for the assurance of her freedom from an undue contract for her to destitute her family and disregarding the fact that her family deserved it, you do, of course, realize they can work for money, right? Gamblingaddict Firehelm bet their family fortune, not their arms and/or legs.

Chaotic Neutrals (and she hasn't shown any evidence she's not one now) would easily bankrupt the parties responsible for an undue curtailing of their freedom in pursuit of said freedom. That's likely a Neutral act on both fronts, really.

As for wanting to murder Durkon, that screams "impulsive jilted person that, due to not knowing fully, has some ground to think Durkon's a deadbeat dad and a hypocrite" more than any alignment.

[Ironsmith]

Okay: disregarding the fact that it was instrumental for the assurance of her freedom from an undue contract for her to destitute her family and disregarding the fact that her family deserved it, you do, of course, realize they can work for money, right? Gamblingaddict Firehelm bet their family fortune, not their arms and/or legs.

That's true, but since it was the entire fortune, and they've been presumably living on it for a while, they're going to have to work up from the bottom with relatively few practical skills and resources. Economically speaking, the outlook for them isn't so great... at best, it'll take them a few generations to get back where they were, and in the meantime, they're going to have a hard time affording basic necessities, like food and medicine/clerical care (to say nothing of how hard life's going to be for them if Bigbrother Firehelm still doesn't kick his addiction). If they don't spend the rest of their lives completely miserable, it'll be almost certainly because someone else in the area decides to be charitable.

Plus, it's not entirely certain that this was the only way out of that contract, or that leaving said contract was even in any way necessary... Ivan seemed like a nice enough guy, and certainly didn't seem to be bothered by Hilgya going out adventuring (nor by the fact that she came home very obviously pregnant with what was very obviously not his kid), if only because he didn't really notice. The influence this marriage seemed to have on her personal freedoms was pretty minimal... it honestly makes what she did to her clan seem much more like revenge than justice. And again, if she needed an out, surely there were ways to cut ties with her clan without robbing them of their entire fortune and/or murdering them all?

[The_Weirdo]

That's true, but since it was the entire fortune, and they've been presumably living on it for a while, they're going to have to work up from the bottom with relatively few practical skills and resources. Economically speaking, the outlook for them isn't so great... at best, it'll take them a few generations to get back where they were, and in the meantime, they're going to have a hard time affording basic necessities, like food and medicine/clerical care (to say nothing of how hard life's going to be for them if Bigbrother Firehelm still doesn't kick his addiction). If they don't spend the rest of their lives completely miserable, it'll be almost certainly because someone else in the area decides to be charitable.

Plus, it's not entirely certain that this was the only way out of that contract, or that leaving said contract was even in any way necessary... Ivan seemed like a nice enough guy, and certainly didn't seem to be bothered by Hilgya going out adventuring (nor by the fact that she came home very obviously pregnant with what was very obviously not his kid), if only because he didn't really notice. The influence this marriage seemed to have on her personal freedoms was pretty minimal... it honestly makes what she did to her clan seem much more like revenge than justice. And again, if she needed an out, surely there were ways to cut ties with her clan without robbing them of their entire fortune and/or murdering them all?

But then where would the justice be? She was a victim of an attack on her rights, after all.

Not to mention she herself said the marriage issue needed to be dealt with on account of Kudzu. It very much stands to reason that he would be a factor in this dysfunctional equation in which she was put through no fault of her own or that he'd be targeted somehow because of it. Even disregarding the fact that said minimal influence was still undue, yes?

[Peelee]

...Did I miss something?

Once you beat your head against the brick wall that is The_Weirdo for long enough, you'll get the joke.

[Ironsmith]

But then where would the justice be? She was a victim of an attack on her rights, after all.

Not to mention she herself said the marriage issue needed to be dealt with on account of Kudzu. It very much stands to reason that he would be a factor in this dysfunctional equation in which she was put through no fault of her own or that he'd be targeted somehow because of it. Even disregarding the fact that said minimal influence was still undue, yes?

Undue, but harmless. Honestly, I'd put less stock in the fact that they arranged her marriage (that in of itself seems pretty neutral) and more that they literally coerced her into it via threats of bodily harm (see also: this jerk's crossbow) and imprisoned her in the meantime. A tit-for-tat response would have been for the now high-level cleric of one of the major gods of the pantheon to turn around and show them just how bad an idea that is, and precisely what would happen if they came near her or her kid at any point in the future (all of which is possible to do nonlethally), or to have them exposed (if they were already willing to do that to her, they're almost certainly guilty of some other major crime, too) and imprisoned as a result. Basically, intimidation and/or imprisonment, same as they did to her. Utter destitution, while something they probably still richly deserved, is still a bit overkill for just Hilgya, and completely self-serving in how she carried it out.

[The_Weirdo]

Undue, but harmless. Honestly, I'd put less stock in the fact that they arranged her marriage (that in of itself seems pretty neutral) and more that they literally coerced her into it via threats of bodily harm (see also: this jerk's crossbow) and imprisoned her in the meantime. A tit-for-tat response would have been for the now high-level cleric of one of the major gods of the pantheon to turn around and show them just how bad an idea that is, and precisely what would happen if they came near her or her kid at any point in the future (all of which is possible to do nonlethally), or to have them exposed (if they were already willing to do that to her, they're almost certainly guilty of some other major crime, too) and imprisoned as a result. Basically, intimidation and/or imprisonment, same as they did to her. Utter destitution, while something they probably still richly deserved, is still a bit overkill for just Hilgya, and completely self-serving in how she carried it out.

Well, arranging a marriage isn't Evil if both bride and groom are willing.

As for overkill... Eh. I don't think it is, but even overkill doesn't really cross into Evil territory. And self-serving is Neutral...

And, to be sure, forcing both clans to give her the divorce by means of showing them what would happen if they do not - plus exacting some revenge in the process, with interest of course - would be a good idea and quite lovely to see. Oppressors deserve to be scared into submission and humiliation, after all. But it wouldn't be nearly as Lokian, now would it?

[Ironsmith]

Well, arranging a marriage isn't Evil if both bride and groom are willing.

As for overkill... Eh. I don't think it is, but even overkill doesn't really cross into Evil territory...

Basically my point in calling it neutral, yeah. There's Good and Evil ways of carrying it out, as well as a few that don't lean too far in either direction.

The only reason it doesn't really appear to be unambiguously evil is because the Firehelm clan is full of *******s. At least, that's what I'm seeing right now. Granted, that's the truth for most actions good characters would carry out, too (for example, Elan allowing Tarquin to fall would be pretty bastardly if their alignments were reversed). I'm not sure I can quite articulate what about this still rubs me the wrong way, but that's my opinion on the subject. It really doesn't help that we've seen a grand total of two panels in the whole comic, and only a bit of extra narration from Hilgya to get the rest of our information from. There's still a lot of ambiguity, you know?

[jere7my]

Folks, Hilgya’s alignment has nothing to do with the current comic, and this discussion eats threads. Maybe take it to a new post?

Basically my point in calling it neutral, yeah. There's Good and Evil ways of carrying it out, as well as a few that don't lean too far in either direction.

The only reason it doesn't really appear to be unambiguously evil is because the Firehelm clan is full of *******s. At least, that's what I'm seeing right now. Granted, that's the truth for most actions good characters would carry out, too (for example, Elan allowing Tarquin to fall would be pretty bastardly if their alignments were reversed). I'm not sure I can quite articulate what about this still rubs me the wrong way, but that's my opinion on the subject. It really doesn't help that we've seen a grand total of two panels in the whole comic, and only a bit of extra narration from Hilgya to get the rest of our information from. There's still a lot of ambiguity, you know?

[Fyraltari]

...Did I miss something?

The_Weirdo has strongly held opinions and peculiar ways to defend them.
A read of the "What dofemale readers think ofHilgya Firehelm" or any reaction thread of a comic she was in since 1105 might be enlightening. It might also be damaging to your sanity.

[georgie_leech]

In point of fact, Elan didn't pretend that what he was doing was a Good act either.

*dives back for cover*

[The_Weirdo]

In point of fact, Elan didn't pretend that what he was doing was a Good act either.

*dives back for cover*

At no point did I claim Hilgya's action was Good. I just said it was perfectly acceptable.

[jere7my]

At no point did I claim Hilgya's action was Good. I just said it was perfectly acceptable.

This has nothing to do with comic 1116. Take this to another thread.

[Ironsmith]

Folks, Hilgya’s alignment has nothing to do with the current comic, and this discussion eats threads. Maybe take it to a new post?

Eh, I think we're just about wrapped up here, actually. Pretty much just a minor disagreement.

At no point did I claim Hilgya's action was Good. I just said it was perfectly acceptable.

And I'm not so sure, but eh, to each their own, right?

[The_Weirdo]

Eh, I think we're just about wrapped up here, actually. Pretty much just a minor disagreement.



And I'm not so sure, but eh, to each their own, right?

True, true. We do seem to agree on, well, most everything, really.

But anyways. Do Chaotic animals have some kind of Anarchic strike? Might be useful; the vamps seem to be Lawful Evil...

[Ironsmith]

True, true. We do seem to agree on, well, most everything, really.

But anyways. Do Chaotic animals have some kind of Anarchic strike? Might be useful; the vamps seem to be Lawful Evil...

Well, most of them. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a sprinkling of Chaotic or Neutral Evil vamps there... but since the guy in charge is definitely Lawful, that's still good info to have.

[hamishspence]

using Planar Handbook rules, it's 1/day, extra damage equal to creature's hit dice (against Lawful creatures).

So, 5 pts of damage if they're using Bison stats, 8 pts of damage if they're using Rhino stats.

[Elenna]

I actually figured it was Vaarsuvius. It's hard to see her using puns and easier to see her just giving a name that comes to mind without caring whether it has any special meaning.

Actually, looking at the strip again, the speech bubble's not that close to Blackwing... IDK, to me it feels like something Blackwing would say, but I just stayed up all night and I'm too tired to figure out why it feels that way.
Anyways, that strip is definitely what Kish was referring to.

Also, 9.5 pages before the thread devolved into an alignment debate. Well, it was fun while it lasted. Bye now.

[kaoskonfety]

10-11 pages before it started up again, improving is happening I think? I'd have to go back and check the other threads to determine if the average is rising... this is not a thing I am doing. Nor is it something I would suggest anyone else do.

[Shining Wrath]

My argument regarding Hilgya's alignment is that we are continually shown indications of her chaotic nature.
The giraffes are anarchic. She casts protection from Law, and has a wand thereof. She turns vampire spawn, rather than controlling them. Her speech about the Church of Loki emphasized freedom from the oppressive honor system, not freedom to hurt people that get in your way or wrong you.

She may be evil and hiding it as a survival mechanism, though. But the recent strip keeps emphasizing chaotic.

She's more chaotic than evil, at any rate.

She was, at one time, Durkon's "evil opposite". I wonder if Durkon being trapped inside a corpse controlled by an evil spirit affects her?