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Thread: Metapsi and Dominant Ideal
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2018-04-11, 12:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2013
Metapsi and Dominant Ideal
I just realized (ok, saw elsewhere) that Metapsionic feats don't say "can only be applied once". They just take expenditure of focus. I'm guessing a rules argument is about to start on that, but assuming it's true and you can stack them...
We all know the focus tricks, starting with a bonus one on your psicrystal, but all the other tricks tend to destroy your power bar in a hurry as you buy move actions to recover focus (and make a left-turn into TO country, and then accelerate hard because now you might as well pile on some infinite power tricks too)
Enter Dominant Ideal. Apply metapsionics without using focus (on your preferred Ardent mantle), which means you can pile on all the meta you can handle. Plus a 2pt power reduction.
And then you don't need to mess with Quicken, Maximize, Twin, Split, Repeating, Linked, etc. So you save a bunch of feats.
ML12 Ardent, with Empower and Dominant Ideal(Energy), using Energy Ray, spending 12pts of power in every instance.
6pt ray can be quadruple empowered, for 18d6
8pt ray can be triple empowered, for 20d6.
10pt ray can be double empowered, for 20d6 again
12pt ray can be single empowered, for 18d6
14pt ray (augmented only) for 14d6
We have a sweet spot.
ML16
6pt, 6 empowers=24d6
8pt, 5 empowers=28d6
10pt, 4 empowers=30d6
12pt, 3 empowers=30d6
14pt, 2 empowers=28d6
16pt, 1 empower=24d6
18pt, aug only=18d6
Add Metapower (Energy Ray, Empowered) and you get another free empower. (I'll ignore the TO option of metapower reducing ALL your empowers by 2pts each, yielding infinite empowers for infinite damage for 1pp)
Lets shift to Disintegrate. Benefit being empowering the damage on the passed Fort save. Even at CL11, with metapower and dominant, you can double-empower, for 10d6 on a passed save. (and 44d6 if they fail, but without ramping DC like other psi powers, or investing in penetration, they don't fail that often).
At ML19 with both feats, you can do Empower*6, for 20d6 on a passed save. That's pretty solid for 19pp and 2 feats.
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2018-04-11, 12:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Metapsi and Dominant Ideal
There is no rules argument. Your focus is either expended, or unexpended. Once I expend my focus on burrowing power or whatever, I can't expend it again. Consequently, you can't stack metapsionic feats unless you have more than one focus
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2018-04-11, 12:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Metapsi and Dominant Ideal
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2018-04-11, 12:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Metapsi and Dominant Ideal
Thanks a lot Gengy for the awesome... just a sec... avatar. :)
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2018-04-11, 01:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-04-11, 01:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Metapsi and Dominant Ideal
Remember, even psicrystal containment gives you 2 focuses. So rather than empower+maximize, if metapsi can be applied multiple times, you can just empower twice.
Which makes this the key point. Stack all you want, you don't need focus any more.Last edited by Elkad; 2018-04-11 at 01:01 PM.
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2018-04-11, 01:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-04-11, 01:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Metapsi and Dominant Ideal
I can't see anything that would allow a metapsionic feat to be applied more than once.
Is that a rule from C.Psi?I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
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2018-04-11, 01:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Metapsi and Dominant Ideal
The basis of the argument seems to be "there's nothing that says I can't" plus this acf.
I realize now that the general rule that you can't benefit from the bonuses from the same source should apply here. Like how you can't use Power Attack 3 times on one attack and just stacking your to-hit penalties.
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2018-04-11, 01:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Metapsi and Dominant Ideal
This is a controversial item that has come up before. It stems from the fact that this passage from the PHB section on Metamagic:
Originally Posted by PHB 88, "Multiple Metamagic feats on a spell"Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2018-04-11, 02:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-04-11, 03:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Metapsi and Dominant Ideal
Hmm, so it's a pure-theory discussion (where "nothing says I can't" is relevant).
Even assuming that you can apply Metapsionics multiple times, I suspect that a strict enough reading would remove any benefit from doing so, given this: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/ps...tapsionicFeats
Originally Posted by SRD
A strict reading could prohibit Metapsionic feats from having any effect on the augmentation of a power, since they're not the power's "original power level". I think that's independent of the order-of-operations argument (which would accomplish the same thing by other means).
-- -- --
Personally I would prefer to allow a Metapsionic feat to operate on the post-Augmentation power, but that's probably because nobody's tried infinite stacking before.I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
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2018-04-11, 03:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Metapsi and Dominant Ideal
⚣ Tanuki in the Playground. ⚣
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2018-04-11, 03:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Metapsi and Dominant Ideal
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2018-04-11, 03:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Metapsi and Dominant Ideal
Yeah it's best in combo with your argument -- the idea would be that you can pay twice if you want, but you'll only get one effect, and that effect will probably kinda suck.
Not my preference either.
But it's nice to have in your pocket when someone tries to rules-lawyer: you can show them that rules-lawyer behavior will tend to be counter-productive. Wouldn't they prefer to have an Empower Power that works well once per power, rather than an Empower Power that sucks horribly (but which they can apply multiple times)?I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
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2018-04-11, 06:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2016
Re: Metapsi and Dominant Ideal
It's worth noting that the text of Empower Power states its effect in two different ways: "All variable, numeric effects of an empowered power are increased by one-half. An empowered power deals half again as much damage as normal, cures half again as many hit points, affects half again as many targets, and so forth, as appropriate. Augmented powers can also be empowered (multiply 1-1/2 times the damage total of the augmented power)."
The first sentence suggests it can be used multiple times, compounding the effect. Everything else about the text says otherwise.
The effect of Enlarge Power changes the range of the power being affected, removing it from the categories of valid powers to affect again. Extend Power simply states the power lasts twice as long as normal. Burrowing Power, Chain Power, Delay Power, Maximize Power, Opportunity Power, Quicken Power, Split Ray, and Twin Power are all worded in ways that I don't see a way to affect with this trick. The only other one in the XPH that appears worded vaguely enough that you might get this past someone is Widen Power. Even if you get the green light for something like this with Empower, dumping points into empowering rather than augmenting means you're keeping the saving throw low; for my money, there are better ways to spend power points.If something I've said can be construed in more than one way, there's a better than average chance that I meant it in the least offensive of the options.