Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCII

[jdizzlean]

So. . . ‘zat it, then? It’s been a week with no disputes and no additional offers to judge, so are we about done here?

I think Helio's MIA, i put a dispute in on the 13th...

[Zaq]

I think Helio's MIA, i put a dispute in on the 13th...

Ah. She had mentioned that she’d been ill. I hope she’s okay, and if she’s not, I hope she gets better soon!

[Venger]

Piggy Knowles mentioned judging.

[Sian]

[...]

Might want to edify that one, since if there's only one then

[jdizzlean]

Might want to edify that one, since if there's only one then

eh, no worries. It'd be a hard sell to say i know of one dispute but not name myself as the author anyways lol

[Heliomance]

Sorry for the delay - I was giving time for disputes to come in, and got distracted. Only two disputes, so it should hopefully be fast to clear and move on to the next round!

Elegance: 1
Your lack of qualification for Contagious Paralysis is a major offender here, as upon reading the text in LM, I see nothing supporting this. Furthermore, magical location feats are poor form at best, especially for prerequisites.

Here are relevant passages from sections describing various special attacks that undead might have.

Paralysis
A wide range of undead creatures have paralyzing attacks, from
the ghoul to the lich. The simplest fi x is remove paralysis (which
works on up to four creatures). Freedom works as well, though
it’s a bit of an overkill. The best antiparalysis spell is freedom of
movement. Not only does it free a paralyzed creature, it provides
immunity to paralysis (as well as a wide range of other benefi ts)
for 10 minutes per caster level.

Paralysis
Ghouls (and their more powerful cousins, ghasts) are the “poster
spawn” for paralysis attacks. Despite the short duration of the
paralysis, the risk of being rendered helpless while within arm’s
reach of such feral creatures proves terrifying even to many
high-level adventurers.
The mohrg’s paralyzing tongue works well with its improved
grab ability, since a paralyzed target can’t resist its grapple
attempt. For best effect, a mohrg should begin its attack routine
with a tongue attack, allowing it to use its slam against a
potentially paralyzed foe.
The lich’s paralysis attack is the most insidious of all these
creatures. Not only is the effect permanent, but the target also
appears to be stone dead. Without a DC 20 Spot check or a DC
15 Heal check, paralyzed allies might well be left behind (or
worse yet, buried alive) without their friends ever realizing their
misdeed.
The mummy and nightwalker also utilize paralyzing attacks,
though in their cases, paralysis is a byproduct of a fear effect (see
Fear, above).

Emphasis mine. These passages imply that things like the Paralyzing Touch of a Lich which aren't explicitly named "Paralysis" still fall under the broader category of Paralysis, which should make them good enough to qualify for Contagious Paralysis, and hence, Enervating Attack should work as well. I probably should have just made Ttal a Gravetouched Ghoul to get Paralysis that way (would have helped with his MAD a bit too), but I think that he does qualify as is.

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 3
You only really the sneak attack parts, as Contagious Paralysis seemed to be your plan behind using the Hold ray, but you are still getting good mileage out of PSA, and you finish it.[/spoiler]

In addition to using Contagious Paralysis in conjunction with the Hold Monster ray, Ttal can cast Hypnotism for synergy with Charm Person to implant instructions in low level targets which they will obey as if fanatical.

Eye of X Da’Shiv dispute

Originality:
A DWK, sovereign archtype melee fighter only scoring a baseline 3?

First off, on Assassins Stance:
The level of maneuver or stance you can take depends on your initiator level (IL); IL required = maneuver level * 2 - 1. Your IL is the sum of your ToB class levels and half your non-ToB class levels. So a rogue 8/swordsage 1 has an initiator level of 1 + 8/2 = 5, which is enough for a third-level maneuver or stance.

I don’t take Ssage until 12th, far beyond the above example, meaing initiator lvl 1 + 11/2 = 6 initiator level. So I qualify for a third level stance, as well as maneuvers. Also, you dinged me in Power and Elegance for the same thing, you’d have to pick one category if I was in the wrong, which I’m not.

Power breakdowns:
5- I have 4d6 sneak, and a to hit of +7. A PHB rogue at 5th has a BAB of +3 at 3d6 sneak, and probably weapon finesse, but nowhere near the bonus I have. Clearly I’m doing better here. I also don’t see where I’m only averaging 6 damage from all that. Don’t forget that Ki Power and Iron Will mean a +4 to Will saves all the time.

10- I have 6d6 SA and a to hit of +10, can use poison, true strike when needed 1/day, picked up +2 to Fort saves (like everyone else qualifying for this horrible SI). With 4 levels at this point in the SI, my saves and to hit aren’t going to be awesome, they just aren’t. A PHB rogue at 10th has +7 to hit at 5d6 SA, I’m still beating that.

15- (although you list 13, my ‘sweet spot’). At 15, I have a to hit of +12, with 10d6 sa, as well as 2d6 from a maneuver. Have HiPs combined with a hide modifier of +23 so I will in fact be getting off sneaks more often anyways (and hiding afterwards). A rogue doesn’t generally attack unless it can sneak, so why am I being penalized for following that line of reasoning? A PHB rogue has +11 to hit with 8d6 SA, which I’m still beating!

20- now I’m at +18 to hit w/ 14d6 SA, +2d6 from a maneuver, plus craven, plus poison with improved crit, EVERY round. A PHB rogue has a +15 to hit w/ 10d6 SA, which I’m still beating. I may not have chosen to optimize uses of the eye rays, but I do have them available, and Clearly I’m doing more damage outright, and sustained. Average AC may be that high on a meat shield, but a squishy target is much less so, and a fighter type is only that high when wearing their armor. Clearly I’m not interested in going toe to toe with any of them on their terms, that would be stupid for me and every other build in this competition.

I generally dislike equipment dependencies, but standard WBL would allow for a Brilliant Energy dagger, which would bypass all that AC anyways… It’d be a fun argument to have to see if you could apply poisons to that particular weapon, but that’s neither here nor there. And of course all the #’s in these breakdowns are done w/o the benefit of any equipment bonus’s added on, which just further illustrates the disparity between that massive 34+ AC and what my base hit/attack is.

Saves (with feat/Ki added):
ME: 5= F3,R5,W6
10= F6,R11,W7
15= F6,R19,W9
20= F8,R25,W11

(sorry, forum spacing makes this table look wierd when done side by side..)
PHB Rogue 5: F1,R4,W1
PHB Rogue 10: F3,R7,W3
PHB Rogue 15: F5,R9,W5
PHB Rogue 20: F6,R12,W6

Clearly my saves are all better than straight Rogue as well. It does appear I accidentally gave myself an extra +1 to Fort, but I still come out on top at all levels other than 15. Obviously my Power rating should be much higher than a 1.

Elegance rating:
Aside from excessive multi-classing, how is my build inelegant? Everything works together, all pre-reqs are paid for before they need to be used, and everything works together. How does using the Wrym of War as a sovereign archtype HURT me when it grants an extra 5 feats, and full weapon/armor proficiency that no one else has? I don’t think a bajillion classes warrants a 1 in this category either.

Use of SI:
More than anything, I built around PSA, but I also built around the Fluff of the SI as it involves and works with the Fluff of every class I took. I chose to optimize one part of the SI’s crunch, but also utilize the actual background of it. Would having 1-2 more daily uses of a ray be that much more beneficial to this build if I had to sacrifice some of the outright damage output? Unlikely at best.

[Selene Sparks]

Emphasis mine. These passages imply that things like the Paralyzing Touch of a Lich which aren't explicitly named "Paralysis" still fall under the broader category of Paralysis, which should make them good enough to qualify for Contagious Paralysis, and hence, Enervating Attack should work as well. I probably should have just made Ttal a Gravetouched Ghoul to get Paralysis that way (would have helped with his MAD a bit too), but I think that he does qualify as is.

I disagree. The section you're referring to is listing off conditions undead can inflict. All the section does is talk about how a lich can, in fact, inflict paralysis, which was never in dispute.

Sorry, but I require more than implications from a fluff chapter for this kind of pre-req dispute.

In addition to using Contagious Paralysis in conjunction with the Hold Monster ray, Ttal can cast Hypnotism for synergy with Charm Person to implant instructions in low level targets which they will obey as if fanatical.

I'm sorry, but I can't really make myself believe that DC13 affects on 5 hit dice of creatures to be relevant at all by level 9. It's neat and all, but not enough to impact scoring.

Originality:
A DWK, sovereign archtype melee fighter only scoring a baseline 3?

Yep. If it makes you feel better, Wyrm of War actually helped you here.

First off, on Assassins Stance:
The level of maneuver or stance you can take depends on your initiator level (IL); IL required = maneuver level * 2 - 1. Your IL is the sum of your ToB class levels and half your non-ToB class levels. So a rogue 8/swordsage 1 has an initiator level of 1 + 8/2 = 5, which is enough for a third-level maneuver or stance.

I don’t take Ssage until 12th, far beyond the above example, meaing initiator lvl 1 + 11/2 = 6 initiator level. So I qualify for a third level stance, as well as maneuvers.

You are correct that your IL is sufficient to take the stance. That is irrelevant, because your build in particular is unable to take the stance.

Stances: You begin play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance from any discipline available to you.

Also, you dinged me in Power and Elegance for the same thing, you’d have to pick one category if I was in the wrong, which I’m not.

I did no such thing. I "dinged" you in elegance for your lack of qualification. I merely gave no credit for the 7 damage you would have gained from assassin's stance, as is expressly allowed in the OP, but, more importantly, it wouldn't have mattered at all because 7 damage wasn't enough to swing you into an acceptable damage range.

Power Breakdown:
*snip*

I thought I made my scoring benchmarks pretty clear in my post. Your power score is primarily based on how you measure up against these numbers at a CR equal to your level. Your objections regarding your idea of a baseline rogue really don't factor into my scoring at all. If you think I miscalculated things, please let me know, but I'm really not interested in objections that have no connection to how things were scored.

That said, one part of your objection was, in fact, correct. The ki power bonus puts you at exactly high enough to qualify for a point in power at level 5, so DaShiv is sitting on 8.25 points.

Elegance:
Aside from excessive multi-classing, how is my build inelegant? Everything works together, all pre-reqs are paid for before they need to be used, and everything works together. How does using the Wrym of War as a sovereign archtype HURT me when it grants an extra 5 feats, and full weapon/armor proficiency that no one else has? I don’t think a bajillion classes warrants a 1 in this category either.

An excessive degree of multiclassing hurts, or more specifically, a massive collection of one-level dips for sneak attack rather than any broad synergy hurts your elegance score, because it's messy. Furthermore, Wyrm of War, like Otyugh Hole, is pretty much a textbook example of something for nothing. They are, by their nature, inelegant. And, finally, you try to take something you don't qualify for, which is the height of inelegance. The weapon and armor proficiencies, were they to matter, would have factored into power, and others' score are entirely irrelevant to your score.

Use of SI:
More than anything, I built around PSA, but I also built around the Fluff of the SI as it involves and works with the Fluff of every class I took. I chose to optimize one part of the SI’s crunch, but also utilize the actual background of it. Would having 1-2 more daily uses of a ray be that much more beneficial to this build if I had to sacrifice some of the outright damage output? Unlikely at best.

Maybe. But if you'd done something to use more of the secret ingredient, you would have used more of the secret ingredient by definition, but you elected not to. I don't see what the problem is.

[WhamBamSam]

Alrighty. That would appear to be that. Are we ready for the reveal then?

[The Viscount]

Certainly.

Thank you for your rapid response, Selene Sparks.

[Troacctid]

So, hey, here's something fun, we just had an adventure-building variant of Iron Chef over in another thread, and I am looking for four players to playtest the submission. The plan is to do it live on stream via Roll20 and have all the players showcase builds from past Iron Chef competitions. Probably on Monday, probably in the afternoon (Pacific time). Anyone interested?

[Venger]

So, hey, here's something fun, we just had an adventure-building variant of Iron Chef over in another thread, and I am looking for four players to playtest the submission. The plan is to do it live on stream via Roll20 and have all the players showcase builds from past Iron Chef competitions. Probably on Monday, probably in the afternoon (Pacific time). Anyone interested?

Sure, I'll give it a shot.

[Zaq]

Anyone wanna vote on HM?

I vote for Louis Friend simply for making me laugh with the story.

[Venger]

Anyone wanna vote on HM?

I vote for Louis Friend simply for making me laugh with the story.

I'll happily second that for the same reason.

[Wolfem]

[Thurbane]

My HM goes to Nehorai, FWIW.

[Heliomance]

Crickets coughing, definitely.

Place	Entry	Chef	Score
1	Lurinella d'Jorasco	Zaq	14.25
2	Ol' Greybrow	WhamBamSam	10.5
3	Ttal Piht	WhamBamSam	10.25
4	Louis Friend	The Viscount	10
5=	Thack O'Grugnord	Zaq	8.5
5=	Khoris Mesmer	Venger	8.5
7	Da'Shiv	jdizzlean	8
8	Nehorai	KrimsonNekros	7

Congratulations to Zaq and WhamBamSam for the podium places!

[Thurbane]

Congrats to all, especially Zaq and WhamBamSam (2 podium places, wow)!

I kind of wish I'd finished my entry, just to see how it would have placed. I wouldn't have expected a podium finish, but would have been fun to see what judges thought of my Marrulurk...

[The Viscount]

An excellent round, with excellent builds. Congrats to Sam on double medals, and congrats to Zaq for first.
Now that we've revealed I can say that I found Thack O'Grugnord side-splittingly hilarious.

[Venger]

An excellent round, with excellent builds. Congrats to Sam on double medals, and congrats to Zaq for first.
Now that we've revealed I can say that I found Thack O'Grugnord side-splittingly hilarious.

Same.

Congrats to the medalists. I didn't do that well, but I had a blast with this ingredient. It was just awful. I could go with another terrible 3.0 class like this soon, though I suspect the next ingredient is already decided on. Something like thrall of eltab, maybe.

Speaking of spelling words backwards, now that the reveal is posted, WhamBamSam, what is "Ttal Piht?" I can't anagram it into anything.

[georgie_leech]

An excellent round, with excellent builds. Congrats to Sam on double medals, and congrats to Zaq for first.
Now that we've revealed I can say that I found Thack O'Grugnord side-splittingly hilarious.

Right? It clearly wasn't a serious build, but that was some of the tastiest RAW twisting I've ever seen. I don't know if something so specific counts, but I vote it at least gets an honorary mention in Dysfunctional Rules thread. Maybe a statue. A book crying in the corner or something.

[WhamBamSam]

Good round all. Congrats on the Gold Zaq.

Speaking of spelling words backwards, now that the reveal is posted, WhamBamSam, what is "Ttal Piht?" I can't anagram it into anything.

It's "capital," as in money, mangled until I thought it looked vaguely Thayan.

[Venger]

Good round all. Congrats on the Gold Zaq.

It's "capital," as in money, mangled until I thought it looked vaguely Thayan.

Cool. I don't feel so bad for not getting it now. I dig Thayan names.

[Zaq]

Thank you all for the kind words! Thack was, obviously, my silly build for this round. I'd offer an explanation, but what more is there to say? The class is so janky that one of its SLAs doesn't even exist anymore, and I knew I needed to talk about that. I was obviously angling for HM, but honestly, as long as I got everyone to laugh (getting a "WHAT THE HELL EVEN IS THIS" rise out of Helio despite her not adding any commentary to the other builds counts, I think), my goal was accomplished.

(Also, I think the skill points on Thack are the most haphazard I've ever laid out, if for no other reason than that I wasn't trying to make a serious build. Gaining 10 ranks in Forgery in one level? Sure, why the hell not?)

Did anyone notice that I was trying to mimic Darrin's style and format with Lurinella? I was really hoping that Darrin would either cook or judge, but I basically just wanted to see if I could do it. It's been years since I was last paid to be a copyeditor/formatter, but those skills don't tend to go away, and I thought it would be amusing to see if I could fool anyone. (I know that we don't play favorites here and I was neither expecting nor intending to necessarily be treated differently if I was disguised as someone else, but for reasons I may be unable to explain, I found the concept to be funny.) I'll be honest—I really didn't expect to take gold with Lurinella. I thought for sure that someone would do a similar trick better, or that the judges would balance Nosomatic Chirurgeon's intended bump to UoSI with a hit to Elegance, or any number of other problems.

This class is pretty embarrassingly bad, so the fact that we had seven serious attempts to put something on the table (plus, y'know, Thack) is impressive in itself. I don't think anyone should be ashamed of what they cooked up here, and every build that wasn't mine had something in it that surprised or impressed me. I commented on this before, but I'm still genuinely surprised how little class overlap we had (outside of the nigh-ubiquitous Rogue, which is obvious)! Congrats to everyone who entered, and many thanks to Selene for judging!

[Venger]

I did think that build was darrin's.

[daremetoidareyo]

Next time do my style!

[Darrin]

Did anyone notice that I was trying to mimic Darrin's style and format with Lurinella? I was really hoping that Darrin would either cook or judge, but I basically just wanted to see if I could do it.

I am flattered. I wasn't paying as much attention to this IC because I'm supposed to be judging the junkyard... yes, like I am supposed to be doing right now, I am totally judging the junkyard thing... But yes, now that I'm looking at it, it looks like *I* submitted Lurinella. (Of course, if it was really my entry, then it would have been submitted a few days after the deadline.)

With this SI, I didn't get very far... I started with, "Ok, Rogue 1/Something 9/Eye of Xanathar 10" gives me nine levels to play around with something really, really weird", but I wasn't able to figure out what that weirdness was. I got as far as, "How about an actual beholder or beholder-kin becomes an Eye?" but as soon as I got to the "Ok, you're a beholder now" part, adding Eye of Xanathar made absolutely no coherent sense. Ooze was my next thought, but I'd already done that. I got as far as, "Maybe something that's blind, like a grey render, so it can see through the Eye thingy?" but at that point I gave up on it.

It's been years since I was last paid to be a copyeditor/formatter, but those skills don't tend to go away, and I thought it would be amusing to see if I could fool anyone. (I know that we don't play favorites here and I was neither expecting nor intending to necessarily be treated differently if I was disguised as someone else, but for reasons I may be unable to explain, I found the concept to be funny.)

I have been worried for a while now that my "format" was giving me away as the cook, and maybe I should consider doing more to disguise that. I suppose I have my answer... although now, maybe it's more of a toss-up... it could be someone copying me!

Anyway. Back to judging... I am totally judging right now.

Next time do my style!

I think he may have already done so... I was thinking Thack was probably yours.

[Wolfem]

As I was updating the ICO Spreadsheet I was having issues matching the #'s in the final chart.

Spoiler: Tlat Piht: 10.25
Hide

Originality: 4
Using Thayan Slaver was novel, made even more so by the fact that it is worshipping dwarfiness while being a racist human slaver.
Power: 1.25
Spoiler
Show

Elegance: 1
Your lack of qualification for Contagious Paralysis is a major offender here, as upon reading the text in LM, I see nothing supporting this. Furthermore, magical location feats are poor form at best, especially for prerequisites.
Use of the Secret Ingredient: 3
You only really the sneak attack parts, as Contagious Paralysis seemed to be your plan behind using the Hold ray, but you are still getting good mileage out of PSA, and you finish it.

How does 4+1.25+1+3= 10.25? That would be 9.25. I didn't see anything in the judges reply to the dispute for this build to indicate the score should change for it. This changes the third place for this cook if I am correct.

Also:

That said, one part of your objection was, in fact, correct. The ki power bonus puts you at exactly high enough to qualify for a point in power at level 5, so DaShiv is sitting on 8.25 points.

Da'Shiv should have a score of 8.25 base on that quote from the judge.

If I am missing something here, please correct me so I can update the spreadsheet accordingly. There are other #'s that don't match up with the original judging.
Below is what I got based on the #'s.

Place	Entry	Chef	Score
1	Lurinella d'Jorasco	Zaq	14.25 (4, 1.25, 4, 5)
2	Ol' Greybrow	WhamBamSam	10.5 (4, 1.5, 1, 4)
3	Louis Friend	The Viscount	10 (3, 1, 3 , 3)
4	Khoris Mesmer	Venger	9.5 (2, 1.5, 3, 3)
5	Tlat Piht	WhamBamSam	9.25 (4, 1.25, 1, 3)
6	Thack O'Grugnord	Zaq	8.5 (4, 2.5, 1, 1)
7	Da'Shiv	jdizzlean	8.25 (3, 1.25, 1, 3)
8	Nehorai	KrimsonNekros	7 (3, 1, 2 ,1)

[Venger]

Wolfem, I double checked your math and you are indeed correct. Good eye.

[Zaq]

I did think that build was darrin's.

This feeling—is this what is called "victory"?

Next time do my style!

I think he may have already done so... I was thinking Thack was probably yours.

Yes and no. I can ape the format-based aspects of your style, dare (in-line citations of sources, including page numbers, with "page" abbreviated as "p." with no space between the period and the number; direct quotations for whatever critical and obscure rules text is needed for your delightfully insane argument du jour; often multiple highly whimsical pictures, usually including one near the bottom of your entry; a helpful listing of your race's features at the beginning; usually no capitalization of skill names; usually but not always something slightly nonstandard about the table formatting; a willingness to use items when going really far down a rabbit hole; skill ranks presented simply as new ranks and not as what changed between last level and this one), and I might be able to sorta-kinda approximate your wonderfully breezy and matter-of-fact way of presenting something completely bonkers, but it's a rare class indeed that sends my mind down the kinds of rabbit holes yours seems to dive down so readily.

I admit that Thack was, if not necessarily an attempt to mimic you, at least something that I knew you could appreciate. If I had had more time and more energy, I might have tried to put Thack's build into your format, but by the time I had thought of two builds (I actually thought of Thack first and only came up with Lurinella at what felt like the last minute, so I was kind of scrambling with my submissions) and already spent the time to directly mimic one person's style, I basically just wanted Thack to be done. It is, to be fair, probably the closest I've ever come to submitting a true dare build (Speeloxhuu being runner-up), but I think you wouldn't have put in the wink-at-the-camera Q&A session at the end. You would have just presented it and let it stand on its own. Still, I'll take the fact that someone thought that it was yours to be praise! Your particular flavor of sideways optimization is consistently a true delight.

I realized after the fact that I didn't perfectly nail Darrin's style. I got all (or almost all) of his formatting down, but he always includes a short, usually playfully over-the-top story, whereas I just threw in a quick "here's my thought process, so let's get down to business" section at the start without really including any meaningful fluff. But it's way easier to copy formatting than to copy creativity.

WhamBamSam's style is a bit harder to mimic because he does mix things up a bit, but he has a tendency to make sure that all of the section names are subtly or not-so-subtly related (and usually quite clever). The way he writes up his skills is similar to, but different from, Darrin's. Venger's tell is that he writes a really, really good fiction piece and then puts basically no capital letters in the actual build writeup. The Viscount is a stealthy guy whose style is slippery enough that I haven't been able to pick out a defining feature, which is actually rather fascinating.

My own tells are basically that I can't stay away from a parenthetical comment (sometimes in parentheses, sometimes in em dashes or just in commas) to save my life, and I tend to get almost preemptively defensive about things that seem to require unusual rules interpretations, like I have to ward off any sort of criticism before it happens. And I tend to awkwardly highlight things that make my build unique in language that isn't always natural. And you can tell my "sweet spot" without me pointing it out because it's usually about three or four times as long as the other sections. And I always capitalize class names (Rogue) but never capitalize race names (halfling), at least when I'm not intentionally trying to disguise myself. I tend not to use pictures, though I've been trying to slowly change that. And I think my fiction is usually garbage, though that's possibly me being my own worst critic—but I still think it tends to be better if I make it shorter.

Anyway. Styles. They happen. They're fun to play with. Sometimes more fun than the nonsensical ingredients. Have I mentioned that I love you folks? Because I do. This is a truly awesome community.

[Venger]

Wow, Zaq, that was a super interesting post. I'd love to see more of your thought process behind this kind of thing when it comes to you in the mind of an iron chef thread (if we can thaw it from its torpor) or in a similar one if that doesn't end up being allowed.