OOTS #1117 - The Discussion Thread

[Fyraltari]

Yes to both. And it is in fact my position that Blackwing is Neutral. Funny that.

And my position is that he could be good. Do you want to debate that or do we call it a day?

Most people are really, really breakable compared to D&D adventurers. That real-world person who was in the newspaper for surviving a lightning strike, translated into D&D, is probably somewhere between a first-level commoner (1d4 hit points before Constitution modifier) and a fifth-level expert (5d6 hit points before 5x Constitution modifier).

Good point.

[zimmerwald1915]

And my position is that he could be good. Do you want to debate that or do we call it a day?

Let's call it a day. "Could be" is unfalsifiable absent an explicit statement by someone in a position to know.

[TRH]

Most people are really, really breakable compared to D&D adventurers. That real-world person who was in the newspaper for surviving a lightning strike, translated into D&D, is probably somewhere between a first-level commoner (1d4 hit points before Constitution modifier) and a fifth-level expert (5d6 hit points before 5x Constitution modifier).

I'm guessing that guy would count as having made his saving throw. It's hard to imagine a real person going through the fluff of a failed save vs. lightning, so to speak, and not getting roasted. On the other hand, people have survived falls from terminal velocity, which is far deadlier in D&D than the lightning bolt. Maybe the system just doesn't calculate relative forms of damage well.

[Fyraltari]

Let's call it a day.

Okidok.

"Could be" is unfalsifiable absent an explicit statement by someone in a position to know.

Yet somehow I find that should anyone try to argue that Durkon* could be good, we would both have strong arguments against.

[zimmerwald1915]

Yet somehow I find that should anyone try to argue that Durkon* could be good, we would both have strong arguments against.

Like, for example, his own statement to Roy at the Godsmoot that he was an "Evil vampire?" Would that not fall into the "explicit statement by someone in a position to know" exception?

[Fyraltari]

Like, for example, his own statement to Roy at the Godsmoot that he was an "Evil vampire?" Would that not fall into the "explicit statement by someone in a position to know" exception?

Oh right, forgot that. Well replace Durkon* with Crystal or Zz'dtri.

[zimmerwald1915]

Oh right, forgot that. Well replace Durkon* with Crystal or Zz'dtri.

Assassins have an Evil Only alignment restriction, and in order to take an Imp Improved Familiar, Zz'dtri would need to be within one step of LE. Zz'dtri, I'll grant you, is debatable. Crystal is not.

[rferries]

Assassins have an Evil Only alignment restriction, and in order to take an Imp Improved Familiar, Zz'dtri would need to be within one step of LE. Zz'dtri, I'll grant you, is debatable. Crystal is not.

Teeeeeeeechnically I think she only had to be evil to take her first level in the class, she could have changed alignments afterwards (though she definitely seems capital E Evil).

[Fyraltari]

Assassins have an Evil Only alignment restriction, and in order to take an Imp Improved Familiar, Zz'dtri would need to be within one step of LE. Zz'dtri, I'll grant you, is debatable. Crystal is not.

Yup. Strong arguments.

[2D8HP]

Considering that the vampire (Ponchula? Is that what we're calling her?) is casting something in the last panel, I think that Dispel Magic is a good bet.

"Ponchula" is used in 25 posts, about 8 of which are as a quote.

Ponchola <3

"Ponchola" is in 14 posts, at least 3 of which are as a quote (I got lazy and stopped counting).

"Ponchola" was used first:

I'm so shipping Durkula and Ponchola right now!

But then someone of STUNNING HUMILITY!!! soon used "Ponchula":

Ponchola or Ponchula

(first usage!)


We also have a new contender of "Ponchella":

Ponchella’s last comment about if Durkuka’s host was the one that held them back, he can’t come do evil stuff with her afterwards.

I just about spit my coffee out with loud laughter. Made a few people around me look over.

I guess this means that Ponchella doesn’t know that Durkuka’s plan succeeding means there won’t be an “afterwards”.

which really does sound nice.

O' Dark Lady of the Poncho, how many smitten suitors has thou?

Some may name you, but none will tame you!

[i6uuaq]

Not sure if anyone has brought this up.

Does the Order have any good options to prevent Durkula from misting out and escaping, if it comes to that?

[Rockphed]

Not sure if anyone has brought this up.

Does the Order have any good options to prevent Durkula from misting out and escaping, if it comes to that?

V might have another force-cage.

[Fyraltari]

Not sure if anyone has brought this up.

Does the Order have any good options to prevent Durkula from misting out and escaping, if it comes to that?

I think he fits.

Edit: A dragon ninja? Not sure how it works but it does.

[zimmerwald1915]

I think he fits.

Edit: A dragon ninja? Not sure how it works but it does.

Resilient sphere, also from that strip, would work about as well.

[Rockphed]

I think he fits.

Edit: A dragon ninja? Not sure how it works but it does.

I really need to get something to convey my size. I am tiny working on small so I can get spellcasting. Size bonues to stealth are nice, but I really want to be able to get all up in the grill of people who disrespect my type, man!

[Shining Wrath]

I've been pondering the misting-out problem. If the vampire goes misty voluntarily, they can reform voluntarily; if misted by being reduced to zero HP, they must reach a coffin or die - and none of them have coffins. Now, I suppose any of them could have had a family tomb nearby, but I don't think that counts, you need grave dirt; in fact, Malack's Rapid Vampire Spell bypassing the burial portion may make all these vampires vulnerable - zero HP and they're done. Since these vampires are created in a non-standard way, their coffins may also be non-standard, or non-existent.

For now, I will guess that if one of these vampires reaches zero HP they assume gaseous form and then expire two hours later.

Here's the description of Gaseous Form from the SRD.

The subject and all its gear become insubstantial, misty, and translucent. Its material armor (including natural armor) becomes worthless, though its size, Dexterity, deflection bonuses, and armor bonuses from force effects still apply. The subject gains damage reduction 10/magic and becomes immune to poison and critical hits. It can’t attack or cast spells with verbal, somatic, material, or focus components while in gaseous form. (This does not rule out the use of certain spells that the subject may have prepared using the feats Silent Spell, Still Spell, and Eschew Materials.) The subject also loses supernatural abilities while in gaseous form. If it has a touch spell ready to use, that spell is discharged harmlessly when the gaseous form spell takes effect.

A gaseous creature can’t run, but it can fly at a speed of 10 feet (maneuverability perfect). It can pass through small holes or narrow openings, even mere cracks, with all it was wearing or holding in its hands, as long as the spell persists. The creature is subject to the effects of wind, and it can’t enter water or other liquid. It also can’t manipulate objects or activate items, even those carried along with its gaseous form. Continuously active items remain active, though in some cases their effects may be moot.

Durkon^T in gaseous form presumably has AC 10 or close to it, and a fly speed of 10. Even with damage reduction the Order can deal enormous damage to an essentially helpless slow-moving target. All that is required is to prevent Gassy Vampire from going somewhere the Order can't follow, and they can reduce him to zero HP, even in mist form.

EDIT: And that may be Durkon's secret reason for choosing this hall - the chimney is blocked up and sealed tight, the walls are solid rock, and there's no where for a gaseous form vampire to go.

[Peelee]

"Ponchula" is used in 25 posts, about 8 of which are as a quote.




"Ponchola" is in 14 posts, at least 3 of which are as a quote (I got lazy and stopped counting).

"Ponchola" was used first:




But then someone of STUNNING HUMILITY!!! soon used "Ponchula":

(first usage!)


We also have a new contender of "Ponchella":




which really does sound nice.

O' Dark Lady of the Poncho, how many smitten suitors has thou?

Some may name you, but none will tame you!

I prefer the one you came up with.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Assassins have an Evil Only alignment restriction, and in order to take an Imp Improved Familiar, Zz'dtri would need to be within one step of LE. Zz'dtri, I'll grant you, is debatable. Crystal is not.

Zz'dtri summoned a piscoloth in 883. He has to be Neutral Evil.

[TRH]

V might have another force-cage.

Considering he seems to plan on surviving the destruction of the world, V would also need to break out a Dimensional Anchor, to stop his Plane Shift.

[zimmerwald1915]

Zz'dtri summoned a piscoloth in 883. He has to be Neutral Evil.

Planar binding, unlike planar ally, doesn't restrict the caster to calling creatures of his own alignment. It does mean that Zz'dtri had magic circle against evil prepared for some reason, though.

Better evidence that Zz'dtri is Neutral Evil.

[Ikuryo]

I've been pondering the misting-out problem. If the vampire goes misty voluntarily, they can reform voluntarily; if misted by being reduced to zero HP, they must reach a coffin or die - and none of them have coffins. Now, I suppose any of them could have had a family tomb nearby, but I don't think that counts, you need grave dirt; in fact, Malack's Rapid Vampire Spell bypassing the burial portion may make all these vampires vulnerable - zero HP and they're done. Since these vampires are created in a non-standard way, their coffins may also be non-standard, or non-existent.

For now, I will guess that if one of these vampires reaches zero HP they assume gaseous form and then expire two hours later.

Here's the description of Gaseous Form from the SRD.


Durkon^T in gaseous form presumably has AC 10 or close to it, and a fly speed of 10. Even with damage reduction the Order can deal enormous damage to an essentially helpless slow-moving target. All that is required is to prevent Gassy Vampire from going somewhere the Order can't follow, and they can reduce him to zero HP, even in mist form.

EDIT: And that may be Durkon's secret reason for choosing this hall - the chimney is blocked up and sealed tight, the walls are solid rock, and there's no where for a gaseous form vampire to go.

I think the in comic Gaseous Form has shown the gas-person to basically be immune to physical attacks and I remember it being mentioned in the forums by posters that it was probably a house-rule.

We have not seen what happens to a gaseous form when it is hit by a magic spell though, so it is possible that Greg will go gaseous and then get taken out by a magic missile or fireball or something.

Without the house-rule it would have been suicide to go gaseous while in melee range of a high level fighter. Roy should have diced his gas up to non-living(? dead unliving gaseous thing?) vapors in 1-2 rounds tops.

[rferries]

I think the in comic Gaseous Form has shown the gas-person to basically be immune to physical attacks and I remember it being mentioned in the forums by posters that it was probably a house-rule.

We have not seen what happens to a gaseous form when it is hit by a magic spell though, so it is possible that Greg will go gaseous and then get taken out by a magic missile or fireball or something.

Without the house-rule it would have been suicide to go gaseous while in melee range of a high level fighter. Roy should have diced his gas up to non-living(? dead unliving gaseous thing?) vapors in 1-2 rounds tops.

But didn't Greg comment "what I SHOULD do is float to the top of the voting chamber, out of range of your melee" or something similar during the fight with Roy? Why would he need to float out of range if he would be immune to attacks in gaseous form?

EDIT: Yep, while he's beating up Roy - "I know I probably should just turn to mist and float out of range until your time is up. But I'm just so tired of watching your smug self-righteous face all the time."

[Emanick]

I really need to get something to convey my size. I am tiny working on small so I can get spellcasting. Size bonues to stealth are nice, but I really want to be able to get all up in the grill of people who disrespect my type, man!

I thought you green dragons were born Small!

[TRH]

But didn't Greg comment "what I SHOULD do is float to the top of the voting chamber, out of range of your melee" or something similar during the fight with Roy? Why would he need to float out of range if he would be immune to attacks in gaseous form?

EDIT: Yep, while he's beating up Roy - "I know I probably should just turn to mist and float out of range until your time is up. But I'm just so tired of watching your smug self-righteous face all the time."

Well, with the ability to float, getting out of reach of Roy's melee weapon can't hurt. Still, the RAW gaseous form is so hideously weak that a vampire would be foolish to ever use it. The way it's presented in this story certainly comes across as making them harder to kill with weapons, rather than much easier as 3.5 rules would indicate. Whether or not he's completely impervious to harm in that form is debatable, but I think the framing strongly implies he's less vulnerable, not more when misting.

[The_Weirdo]

I just wish to say that I don't care what her name is, I saw her first, so, at least until she refuses my advances, back off, buckos, find yourselves your own sexy, long-haired Evil undead psychopath that wants to try all kinds of messed-up stuff that would necessitate a poncho!

[Rockphed]

I thought you green dragons were born Small!

I'm a chaotic good fuzzy green dragon (the fuzzy is not rendered well in my avatar). We start out as diminutive with 1/6 d12 hit die. Even great wyrms only have 1d12 hit dice. When we reach adult and become small, we gain spell-casting as a bard of level equal to half our hit dice. I am currently a tiny young adult with 2 levels of rogue and 1 of ranger. If I can get my size up to small, I will have 2nd level bard casting.

[TRH]

I'm a chaotic good fuzzy green dragon (the fuzzy is not rendered well in my avatar). We start out as diminutive with 1/6 d12 hit die. Even great wyrms only have 1d12 hit dice. When we reach adult and become small, we gain spell-casting as a bard of level equal to half our hit dice. I am currently a tiny young adult with 2 levels of rogue and 1 of ranger. If I can get my size up to small, I will have 2nd level bard casting.

Better hit the buffet, then, to master that bardic magic.

[Rrmcklin]

It's a character development thing. We're supposed to take away from this the notion that Vaarsuvius is no longer the selfish jerk that wouldn't put her life on the line for the party or something.

Though I've gathered you dislike V, I'm not really sure how this makes much sense. V, is not the focus here, nothing about their action is being highlighted accept them going along with the plan, which as far as I can remember, they've always been willing to do (such as a plan existed).

V has had character development, but I see no reason to think this moment, in particular, is supposed to somehow highlight it. It doesn't seem to logically follow to me.

[Ruck]

Planar binding, unlike planar ally, doesn't restrict the caster to calling creatures of his own alignment. It does mean that Zz'dtri had magic circle against evil prepared for some reason, though.

Better evidence that Zz'dtri is Neutral Evil.

Totally unreliable; it references some odd characters I've never seen named "Lirain" and "Dorkuan."

[Ikuryo]

But didn't Greg comment "what I SHOULD do is float to the top of the voting chamber, out of range of your melee" or something similar during the fight with Roy? Why would he need to float out of range if he would be immune to attacks in gaseous form?

EDIT: Yep, while he's beating up Roy - "I know I probably should just turn to mist and float out of range until your time is up. But I'm just so tired of watching your smug self-righteous face all the time."

The problem is that gaseous form in raw makes your AC 10 and gives DR 10/Magic. Roy is sporting a +5 magic greatsword of "sometimes extra painful to undead", his weapon is magic and will fully bypass the damage reduction, with his Str bonus and the + from his weapon hitting AC 10 would happen on all but a roll of 1. Unless it grants a displacement like effect a vampire in gaseous form will be easier to hit and take more damage then if it just stayed in a material form. Roys normal attack does a min of 15 or so damage his swing is shown doing a whiffing miss sound instead of harming Greg. Those two swings at his Gregs gaseous form should have done about 1/4 or so of Gregs hps in dmg, not nothing.

Only thing I can think of is if Greg was made incorpreal, which would give a 50% miss chance to Roy. Although that is not in the raw. Two rounds of Full Attack by Roy should kill a gaseous Greg, or close to it.