Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

[Traab]

Spoiler

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Would it make a difference? Seriously, Aquaman can breath underwater and has his own hydrokinesis. The only way it would matter if he could bring more force then he could in person.

Has aquaman ever shown that level of hydrokinesis? If not then it may become a matter of, can namor overcome his durability with his superior water control? They seriously highballed aquamans durability and strength after all. Can namor actually do above continent destroying levels of power with water? What would that take?

[Rater202]

Spoiler

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Would it make a difference? Seriously, Aquaman can breathe underwater and has his own hydrokinesis. The only way it would matter if he could bring more force then he could in person.

Namor's Hydrokinesis has a range and power in far excess of anything that Aquaman has demonstrated.

The second that the fight moved into the deep ocean, Namor should have had complete control of the battlefield.

When you can flood a prison cell in Arizona without leaving your seat in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean and part the ocean as a casual effort, nobody water based is a challenge to you.

[Devonix]

Namor's Hydrokinesis has a range and power in far excess of anything that Aquaman has demonstrated.

The second that the fight moved into the deep ocean, Namor should have had complete control of the battlefield.

When you can flood a prison cell in Arizona without leaving your seat in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean and part the ocean as a casual effort, nobody water based is a challenge to you.

The question he was asking is can Namor manage to hurt Arthur enough with his Water power and prevent him from engaging Arthur in a physical or Mental battle. Because if either happen, Arthur is going to put him down hard. We all agree Namor has better water control.

[Rater202]

The question he was asking is can Namor manage to hurt Arthur enough with his Water power and prevent him from engaging Arthur in a physical or Mental battle. Because if either happen, Arthur is going to put him down hard. We all agree Namor has better water control.

It doesn't matter if you're stronger or faster if you can't get to the other-guy.

The second it got to being an underwater fight it becomes a caseof Namor using his hydrokenisis to keep Aquaman from being able to do anything.

At bare minimum it should have resulted in a draw where neither of them can kill the other.

[HolyDraconus]

It doesn't matter if you're stronger or faster if you can't get to the other-guy.

The second it got to being an underwater fight it becomes a caseof Namor using his hydrokenisis to keep Aquaman from being able to do anything.

At bare minimum it should have resulted in a draw where neither of them can kill the other.

Let's not forget that namors durability was lowballed. But eh its expected. As for next time,

Spoiler: I think

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O.G has this in the bag. X flat out loses to Zero in canon, who has yet to prove to be stronger than O.G. Exe has done NOTHING outside a program without outside help (cough Bass, cough cyber beasts)and Starforce is generally accepted as a more advanced Exe, even though he's technically an alien. Since neither Exe or Starforce done much in the real world then I wouldn't even count them., unless this is supposed to be like, in cyberspace then they can participate. Problem though is that both O.G and X been in cyberspace and kept the vast majority of their abilities. Which includes rule breaking. Starforce will last a bit longer but it's coming down to X and O.G.. And O.G has beaten stronger bots than himself. He literally killed his future self.

that it could be close, but clear.

[Forum Explorer]

Namor's Hydrokinesis has a range and power in far excess of anything that Aquaman has demonstrated.

The second that the fight moved into the deep ocean, Namor should have had complete control of the battlefield.

When you can flood a prison cell in Arizona without leaving your seat in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean and part the ocean as a casual effort, nobody water based is a challenge to you.

Not necessarily. Like, lets say Namor crushed the prison cell instead of just flooding it. Aquaman is still strong enough to swim through that level of force with brute strength. Swimming against a current is something animals do all the time, and that's really all the hydrokinesis is going to do to Aquaman.

[Kitten Champion]

Isn't there a version of the Rockman.EXE where Rockman merges with - Lan, I think? - to become a physical being?

[Rynjin]

Isn't there a version of the Rockman.EXE where Rockman merges with - Lan, I think? - to become a physical being?

I think it's the Star series, which isn't Lan, and technically isn't Megaman either IIRC. Lan was the Battle Network games and NT Warrior anime series, where every bit of tech was online connected and Megaman was a combo of Lan's online avatar and AI personal assistant.

[HolyDraconus]

Isn't there a version of the Rockman.EXE where Rockman merges with - Lan, I think? - to become a physical being?

In every instance of that happening it was either in augmented reality, or the world, or pieces of it, was digitized enough for it to happen. The strongest Exe ever was, was in the manga, and they made it extremely clear that hes no where near the top: Dark MegaMan beats him and he lost when trying to absorb Bass. Who himself is literally the reincarnated data(ish) of pharaoh man. Hell, Zero.exe stomps the cybeasts and Exe has yet to fight something stronger whose name isnt Bass.

I think it's the Star series, which isn't Lan, and technically isn't Megaman either IIRC. Lan was the Battle Network games and NT Warrior anime series, where every bit of tech was online connected and Megaman was a combo of Lan's online avatar and AI personal assistant.

No, it was in NT. It was the Cross FUSION, one of many fusion abilities that was introduced and eventually discarded.

[HolyDraconus]

The X blurb is up. My opinion hasn't changed.

[HolyDraconus]

Spoilers for this one.

Spoiler: Read if you are ok with spoilers

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Volnutt being a non factor was expected. Star Force losing as well is also expected. But they totally freaking skipped out a lot for practically everyone. Let's get this out the way, Exe won, due entirely to manga feats. Nevermind that classic also has manga feats at that level, has beaten, not just fought, BEATEN bots stronger than him from the future, but I guess they was pressed for time making this and simply did what they could. For the two cyber megas, they was given a mutual form and every single battle chip they ever had. Everyone else has every weapon they ever had. They also went on and gave the two cybers their operators. Hence why Exe won. Star Force is stronger than Mother Elf, something that even hundreds of years later in the future, both during Zero's timeframe of games and the ZX series, was shown to still be so ridiculously powerful that the worst ever done to it couldn't completely defeat it. Yet EM waves tanked it. Who itself was one shot by Exe. To be fair, I didn't think the operators was on the table. Since everyone else fought alone, save those two. And of course they featured time stop, by one person, classic, and it wasn't enough, even though they admitted that X can tank such crap, and should of been able to blitz everyone else while they was held due to his ability to shrug off that effect from opponents and use it himself. Which he didn't. Classic used a few weapons, the two cybers used a few weapons, and Volnutt was just there. X summoned the Ultimate Armor, which isn't even his strongest anymore ( it stopped being the strongest since Command Mission) and that was pretty much it. No mention that Nova Strike makes him invincible, no mention that it can be and HAS been spammed till everything is dead, no mention of classic fighting X and future classic at all. Its a jumbled mess. If I didn't know any better, I would think they set this up just to show off a speed feat.
And another thing. They joked about the Hadoken and the Shinryuken but whenever either move is available it is ALWAYS a 1 hit kill.
and ANOTHER thing. WHY ban everyone else's manga/comics save Exe???

[Traab]

I didnt like the fight. It was too chaotic, and the graphic quality was so low that at many times it was hard to tell who was who. Battle royals are lame, they are too confusing, and tend to gloss over alot of information that gets covered when they can use that time to focus on two characters instead. As for the upcoming match, I dont know enough about either to say one way or the other.

[Kato]

Yeah, I'm not too happy either. I mean, I learned about the existence of Starforce becaus I never came across that before but otherwise...
I'd say it was a poor choice for a match. Megaman is too diverse to have five of them fight and have everyone get enough time to show off everyone they can do.
Also, just on a personal note, I'm really not happy with the battle deciding interpretation but... I don't know enough Megaman lore for that to be more that to be founded in facts.

Next time... I'm not super hyped about either fighter but it could make for a more fun fight.

[Kitten Champion]

Who are the combatants next time?

I don't watch the show.

[Kato]

Who are the combatants next time?

I don't watch the show.

Black Widow and Widowmaker. (But if you don't watch it, why do you care? )

[Kitten Champion]

Black Widow and Widowmaker. (But if you don't watch it, why do you care? )

This essentially is just an ongoing versus thread. Except here DB provides the actual match-ups rather than forum members, which means that while they might be boring at times - and DB is limited by its medium and production values - chances are better that the contestants are reasonable matches.

At the same time this format means new episodes can prevent the thread from becoming stale. Well, hopefully. Certain arguments can drag it back into arguing in well-worn circles.

Plus, Warhammer 40K hasn't come up once.

[Rynjin]

Who would win, the God Emperor of Mankind or Superman?

[Lord Raziere]

Who would win, the God Emperor of Mankind or Superman?

Modern Emps: he loses because he is a literal almost-corpse

Peak Emps: can the Emperor travel at the speed of light? no, because he builds stuff to travel for him. he loses.

"but he is the greatest psyker" Superman has kryptonian mind kung fu to defend his brain, don't bother.

"but he is maybe a perpetual" Superman has beaten Vandal Savage before. He can beat Jean Grey flavored golden emperor Vandal Savage to.

[Delicious Taffy]

The character intros were alright, but the fight itself just seemed kind of underwhelming. I'm not sure if it's because of the angle I was holding my phone at, but I could swear the audio was just impact noises and occasional grunts, with no music playing. Volnut didn't need to show up at all. The animation in general reminded me of the big fight scene in the RWBY Season 5 finale, and not in a good way.

[Frozen_Feet]

Who would win, the God Emperor of Mankind or Superman?

Depends on the iteration of Superman.

Golden Age Superman was just barely above a Space Marine, then maybe a Primarch. By Silver Age, when they really started doing new powers as plot demans, Superman eventually eclipses everything WH40K has to offer. However, he is very inconsistent. That Kryptonian mind kung fu Raziere mentioned? Yeah, it wasn't always a thing, and Superman has been hypnotized, has had his powers stolen etc. by fairly mundane magicians.

Modern portrayals are likewise all over the place. Like Raziere noted, the versions where Superman can move faster-than-light should win, if it's not jobbing Sunday. More restricted versions, like in DCU, would likely lose.

Now, the Emperor? In his early alluded to beginnings, he probably was Golden Age Superman of his setting. At his peak, he's Lex Luthor with psychic powers. In the Warp, he might've had nearly fifth-dimensional-imp levels of power, considering he's an arch nemesis of the Chaos Gods.

However, by the start of the actual playable WH40K setting, the Emperor is a corpse in a glorified mausoleum. It would be a no-contest: as long as Superman could get close enough to Terra to eyebeam it out of existence, he'd win. The real fight might not even start untill after Emperor is dead. It used to be implied that the Emperor's spirit is held back by his physical shell and if someone would just cut the life support, he'd be freed to the Warp to fight the Chaos Gods directly. However, the lore is inconsistent of what should actually happen.

On the other hamd, Superman wouldn't need to go into the Warp. Because the Immaterium has limited influence in the Materium, it would turn into a situation similar to Darkseid: the Emperor's real essence and power exist on an abstract level and any physical threat he could pose to Superman would be a more limited avatar. And Superman has a reasonable track record of kicking Darkseid's avatars to the balls.

In the Warp, Superman might lose a direct physical-psychic confrontation, but like with five-dimensional-imps or, well, Darkseid again, might be able to trick or negotiate with the Emperor, or through his actions become such an inspirational force that it'd change the Warp and allow him to face Emperor on even footing.

[deuterio12]

On the other hamd, Superman wouldn't need to go into the Warp. Because the Immaterium has limited influence in the Materium, it would turn into a situation similar to Darkseid: the Emperor's real essence and power exist on an abstract level and any physical threat he could pose to Superman would be a more limited avatar. And Superman has a reasonable track record of kicking Darkseid's avatars to the balls.

Supes also kicked the real darkseid to the balls. Even doomsday did. The story authors themselves confirmed it.

Plus supes can come back from the dead, while the emprah is stuck as a corpse on a golden toilet for 10k years.

But let's go back a bit.

Supes defeats all his opponents using only his body.

The puny emprah needs to cover his weak flesh with a big armor and bigger pauldrons then also uses a sword. All of the emprah's psychic might is inferior to just waving some sharp stick around.

Supes also saves everything by himself all the time.

The puny emprah needs an army. Multiple armies. Trillions of slaves to do his dirty work. He's not called EMPEROR for nothing, he's always bossing people around and telling them what to do.

That one time the emprah tried to fight orks head on along his slaves? He got his balls kicked in. Freaking Horus had to save his ass. Horus who hated the emprah to the point of setting the galaxy on fire and sell his soul to all four chaos gods had so much pity of the emprah's weakness that he saved his supreme goldyness not from some god but from standard-issue orks that even guardsmen can take head on.

tl:dr: Emprah needs slaves and armor and swords all the time and still fails, supes uses only his fists and head and succeeds.

[Frozen_Feet]

You can make most of the same arguments about Lex Luthor. Yes, Luthor has a tendency to lose at the end, but he's still been a threat to Superman on occasion.

[Lord Raziere]

You can make most of the same arguments about Lex Luthor. Yes, Luthor has a tendency to lose at the end, but he's still been a threat to Superman on occasion.

and Superman still wins. It doesn't matter how much of a threat you are if the person is shown to keep winning despite that threat being there.

Again: Superman has already fought Vandal Savage. Emps is just super-psychic vandal savage with a big empire and since when has Supes ever been beaten by silly things like empires? empires are just villainous window dressing in DC universe to decorate the cosmic gods fighting the real battles over the fate of the universe.

[Traab]

You can make most of the same arguments about Lex Luthor. Yes, Luthor has a tendency to lose at the end, but he's still been a threat to Superman on occasion.

His threat is mostly due to superman not wanting to obliterate him. He has to hold back so as not reduce luthor to a crimson mist. Its a delicate balance between "Hit hard enough to stop luthors power armor" for example, and "Hit luthor so hard he is erased from history" So superman tends to take a lot of hits because he will survive it, luthor wont. Luthor is a great planner, has come out with all sorts of interesting tools that really create havoc for supes, but he himself is not a personal threat. In an actual death battle where both are going for the kill and not holding back, luthor dies without doubt.

[Devonix]

His threat is mostly due to superman not wanting to obliterate him. He has to hold back so as not reduce luthor to a crimson mist. Its a delicate balance between "Hit hard enough to stop luthors power armor" for example, and "Hit luthor so hard he is erased from history" So superman tends to take a lot of hits because he will survive it, luthor wont. Luthor is a great planner, has come out with all sorts of interesting tools that really create havoc for supes, but he himself is not a personal threat. In an actual death battle where both are going for the kill and not holding back, luthor dies without doubt.

I think it's more that Superman doesn't want to beat the villain. He wants to save people. And that includes the villain. If Superman has to fight someone, it means on some level Superman doesn't get a complete victory. Superman WANTS Lex to be the person he claims to be.

[Traab]

I think it's more that Superman doesn't want to beat the villain. He wants to save people. And that includes the villain. If Superman has to fight someone, it means on some level Superman doesn't get a complete victory. Superman WANTS Lex to be the person he claims to be.

I wouldnt be surprised if there was some of that in there too, but honestly I think a larger part is him holding back so as not to kill people and gradually ramping up till he can destroy the mech suit, super weapon, or energy shield without murdering someone.

[HolyDraconus]

I think it's more that Superman doesn't want to beat the villain. He wants to save people. And that includes the villain. If Superman has to fight someone, it means on some level Superman doesn't get a complete victory. Superman WANTS Lex to be the person he claims to be.

Considering supes did crap like give batman a gun and demand to duel him to the death while sporting his own, I think that version of supes is a myth.

[Traab]

Considering supes did crap like give batman a gun and demand to duel him to the death while sporting his own, I think that version of supes is a myth.

And batman used to gun people down regularly back in the day. Every hero thats been around since the golden age has gone through so many versions its crazy.

[Rater202]

And batman used to gun people down regularly back in the day. Every hero thats been around since the golden age has gone through so many versions its crazy.

Except Marvel's.

That's been one continuous narrative since Namor and OG Human Torch first met in Marvel Mystery Comics #8.(Published in June, 1940.) There have been some retcons since then, but there's never been any hard reboots and even most of the "retcons" are adding more information rather than directly contradicting established information.

[The Jack]

Odd thought about Lex luthor.

Originally superman was gonna be a human from the distant future, sent back probably to be an uplift for humanity. This kinda explains why he's powered by yellow solar radiation and weak to red despite being from a place with a red sun; his sun was once yellow till bad stuff happened, and also how he's a white male who lands in America. Of course the publishers didn't buy it so they went with krypton.

But, perhaps, if you go with this story, maybe there's a great reason why superman needs lex alive. Indeed in a few stories Lex luthor saves the planet. Lex's genius is a massive boon to humanity, and perhaps a time traveling version of superman knows this. Lex's evil is almost inconsequential to the long term benefits he'll give humanity.