OOTS #1121 - The Discussion Thread

[Ironsmith]

(snip)

That's a lot more helpful, thanks.

I mean, it might be a bit mitigated by the fact that there would no longer be a need to defend yourself (since all the evil adventurers are dead, too), but I can see where Mr. Burlew is coming from.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

As does the assertion that, unilaterally, they do NOT care.

But it's hardly the only example on my end. You have nothing other than maybe a minority of the gods sorta kinda maybe caring during the vote, with the vast majority of the other gods clearly caring not one bit. And given that Thor displays no other affection, even if you brush aside individual examples, the aggregate is clear.

In the context of the outer planes, that "qualitative difference" amounts essentially to just still being able to die (and having corporeal needs, such as food, water, sleep, etc).

Also the ability to grow and change and learn and, in short, be an individual. See also Peelee's post (thanks for finding the quote, Peelee)

If the gods move all the people on the planet to the planes where their respective afterlives are held... how is that actually an improvement from making them denizens of those planes in the usual fashion?

Because that way, when the new planet is created, they can be taken back there. That is not an option for dead people.

Not really. If they do indeed see people as batteries to be consumed (and ONLY batteries to be consumed), it could be said truthfully that they're apathetic. But given that we have gods who are actively lobbying to let the mortals fix this, in spite of how much safer it would be to unmake the world and rebuild it to better contain the Snarl, shows that at least those gods care, antithetical to Kish's point. In fact, the entire argument I have in regards to Heimdall is that he and Skadi still do care about mortals... but have doubts as to their ability to fix the gate crisis.

Most gods' reasons to preserve or destroy the world have nothing to do with the mortals. A few might care, but they are a minority, and of those, it takes a lot of pre-disposition to think they care to read such care in their arguments. Especially Skadi - I don't see any sign she gives a damn about mortals, only about having prey to hunt.

Also, re-reading the comic with the demigods' votes brings up another point... Sigrun mentions that the souls of the dead risk oblivion if the Snarl breaks free. As many mortals as there are on the planet now, how many more are there who have lived out their lives and are now in their rightful afterlives, who also need protecting from the Snarl? Couldn't it be said that the gods taking care of these souls, as well, is also showing concern for them?

Not in the absence of other evidence. All I see is a god seeing their future earnings vanish, and wanting to save as much of the moolah as they can before it gets swept away.

The Snarl's already poking out (see here), so it can already be argued that delaying the removal of mortals from the planet for any reason (including the comfort of having a corporeal body on arrival) presents an unnecessary risk that would otherwise be minimized.

Which is why, if they cared, they would have started evacuating the planet the moment they became aware of the tears, instead of waiting until it was too late to attempt.

Grey Wolf

[Ironsmith]

But it's hardly the only example on my end. You have nothing other than maybe a minority of the gods sorta kinda maybe caring during the vote, with the vast majority of the other gods clearly caring not one bit. And given that Thor displays no other affection, even if you brush aside individual examples, the aggregate is clear.

And your examples are... where?

Because that way, when the new planet is created, they can be taken back there. That is not an option for dead people.

I find it surprising that making a whole new planet is on the table, but repopulating that planet with existing souls (instead of fabricating new ones) somehow isn't.

Most gods' reasons to preserve or destroy the world have nothing to do with the mortals. A few might care, but they are a minority, and of those, it takes a lot of pre-disposition to think they care to read such care in their arguments. Especially Skadi - I don't see any sign she gives a damn about mortals, only about having prey to hunt.

"A few care" is all that's really needed to refute "none of them care".

Also, I see no reason to assume that the gods who take up Good positions aren't Good enough to give a damn about their followers... even if the sheer scope of what they do makes it difficult to see.

Not in the absence of other evidence. All I see is a god seeing their future earnings vanish, and wanting to save as much of the moolah as they can before it gets swept away.

And not people getting killed in ways that can't be reversed, and deprived of any afterlife? Who is it that's not caring about the mortals now?

Which is why, if they cared, they would have started evacuating the planet the moment they became aware of the tears, instead of waiting until it was too late to attempt.

What do you think Heimdall's proposing now?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And your examples are... where?

Everywhere else. In their inaction and their words and their obvious disregard for what it going on.

I find it surprising that making a whole new planet is on the table, but repopulating that planet with existing souls (instead of fabricating new ones) somehow isn't.

What you find surprising is of no value. The gods can create a new planet because they say they can. They have not proposed reincarnating all the souls they would gain if they destroy the world, so they can't.

"A few care" is all that's really needed to refute "none of them care".

Strawman. The statement "the gods don't care about humans" doesn't mean "none of them care". It means "the great majority of them don't care". And even with your weakened position of "all it takes is one of them caring" all you have is empty political speeches on why they vote yay-or-nay. While they ignore the pleas and opinions of the mortals whose lives they are considering snuffing out.

Also, I see no reason to assume that the gods who take up Good positions aren't Good enough to give a damn about their followers... even if the sheer scope of what they do makes it difficult to see.

I don't follow this argument, but does seem to be circular "I assume the gods care, so I don't assume they don't".

And not people getting killed in ways that can't be reversed, and deprived of any afterlife? Who is it that's not caring about the mortals now?

Clearly, the gods, who could have done something to prevent this, and did not.

What do you think Heimdall's proposing now?

He is proposing to kill millions of sentient beings. When he could have saved them, if he had addressed the problem ten years ago. I don't give a free pass to mass murderers because they feel bad about having procrastinated themselves into a corner.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

I am absolutely taking it as stated that mortals are comparable to termites or dust motes to all the gods.

The only thing that puzzles me is how resistant some people are to a narrative that has remained unchanged since Thor let Surtur eat a village while granting Durkon spells. The gods have never been shown as valuing individual mortals; even when Thor bends the rules for Durkon he immediately shrugs "let me know if he survives" in a way that sends what strikes me as a very clear message that the rule-bending was about his ego, not about Durkon as a person.

[Ironsmith]

Everywhere else. In their inaction and their words and their obvious disregard for what it going on.

So in the lack of action? Which can be attributed to a number of factors, of which apathy is only one? Including the very arrangements that prevent the existence of a second Snarl?

Actions are evidence. Lack of action is lack of evidence.

What you find surprising is of no value. The gods can create a new planet because they say they can. They have not proposed reincarnating all the souls they would gain if they destroy the world, so they can't.

They also haven't said they can Plane Shift everyone to safety.

Strawman. The statement "the gods don't care about humans" doesn't mean "none of them care". It means "the great majority of them don't care". And even with your weakened position of "all it takes is one of them caring" all you have is empty political speeches on why they vote yay-or-nay. While they ignore the pleas and opinions of the mortals whose lives they are considering snuffing out.

Actually, it's just a bad position:

The gods--good and evil alike--view mortals as equivalent to insects. "But this would be unfair to the insects" isn't important, [even to a god of justice]. That does mean all the gods are evil from my perspective, but it's still what's been presented in the comic.

This is not what's presented in the comic. This is what I was arguing against, and the point I do not agree with.

I don't follow this argument, but does seem to be circular "I assume the gods care, so I don't assume they don't".

"There are gods who are Good-aligned. Good alignment means they care for other beings. Mortals make up the overwhelming majority of beings. Ergo, Good gods care about mortals."

He is proposing to kill millions of sentient beings. When he could have saved them, if he had addressed the problem ten years ago. I don't give a free pass to mass murderers because they feel bad about having procrastinated themselves into a corner.

Who you do and do not give a free pass to isn't the question. If you want to argue that letting the mortals handle it is the Good action to take, then they've been doing Good up until this time. If it's not, then there's no Good response to this scenario.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So in the lack of action? Which can be attributed to a number of factors, of which apathy is only one? Including the very arrangements that prevent the existence of a second Snarl?

Caring requires actions when the people you care for are in danger, pain, experiencing problems, etc. Even if it is only a shoulder to cry on. Apathy is not caring.

Actions are evidence. Lack of action is lack of evidence.

No, lack of action is evidence for lack of caring. If someone that supposedly cares for you is never there when you are in need, they don't care for you. Their lack of action is proof of their lack of care. So for the gods.

They also haven't said they can Plane Shift everyone to safety.

Precisely. They don't care enough to do so. But given enough time (and they have had decades, which is more than enough time), it would be possible, since Plane shift can take multiple people in one go. The logistics of it are much easier than your idea of mass-resurrecting every individual after killing them all, but either would show some inkling of caring. But there isn't one.

Actually, it's just a bad position:

This is not what's presented in the comic. This is what I was arguing against, and the point I do not agree with.

Yes, I get it that you do. But you have no evidence that the gods care. No, not even the good ones. You have empty platitudes.

"There are gods who are Good-aligned. Good alignment means they care for other beings. Mortals make up the overwhelming majority of beings. Ergo, Good gods care about mortals."

There is your problem: Good alignment does NOT mean they care about others. Good alignment, in fact, does not condone courses of action that lead to mass murder at a planetary scale. In fact, I don't even know why you assume Heimdall is Good. And as Kish will tell you, none of the OotS gods fall under the category of Good.

Who you do and do not give a free pass to isn't the question. If you want to argue that letting the mortals handle it is the Good action to take, then they've been doing Good up until this time. If it's not, then there's no Good response to this scenario.

I don't want to argue that letting the mortals handle it is the Good action to take. In fact, I find your attempt at putting words into my mouth quite offensive. And I've already given you the Good response to this scenario: not procrastinating on a problem until the solution might involve mass murder.

Grey Wolf

[hamishspence]

as Kish will tell you, none of the OotS gods fall under the category of Good.

This quote on 4e Good-aligned metallic dragons:

Even good dragons can be terrible enemies.

Powerful metallic dragons that serve good in the world can still pose threats to heroic characters. A good dragon might choose to destroy a band of heroes to defend some site or artifact, to fulfill an ancient oath, or to prevent a great evil. Given their long lives and their overwhelming pride and confidence, dragons think little of making the hard choices for lesser creatures and sacrificing the few for the good of the many. True compassion is rare indeed among dragonkind.

may be applicable to other editions and other exceedingly powerful beings like deities. If you can be a good dragon without having "true compassion" - maybe you can be a good deity without it too.

[KorvinStarmast]

This quote on 4e Good-aligned metallic dragons:


may be applicable to other editions and other exceedingly powerful beings like deities. If you can be a good dragon without having "true compassion" - maybe you can be a good deity without it too.

The problem with the use of the term "good" is that it has been taken into a back alley, beaten within an inch of its life, and left to crawl to the emergency room.

In normal English usage, good is a useful word with shades of meaning and utility. The abuses done to this word when it has wrapped around it the chains of a game mechanics term are legion (this conversation being a decent example). There is also a problem of "my definition that I'll die in a ditch for" that is endemic in the game and to a certain extent in internet discussions. Finally, there is Rich's subjective and artistic decisions on how he bundles all of the above mess together into both in story telling and his commentaries.

When anyone says good, and tries to declare a one for one correspondence between good and a thing or an act, they are being Miko all over again. The mechanization of terms can sometimes create tunnel vision, and sometimes just muddles a conversation.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

This quote on 4e Good-aligned metallic dragons:

may be applicable to other editions and other exceedingly powerful beings like deities. If you can be a good dragon without having "true compassion" - maybe you can be a good deity without it too.

True enough. Let me, therefore, restate my position:

We are discussing whether the gods care about humans as anything other than termites infesting their house (to use Rich's words), insects (to use Kish's) or necessary-but-ignorable intestinal fauna (to use mine). Ironsmith argued that "Good alignment means they care for other beings". I find this a wrong statement on two basis: first, as hamishspence just found, there is no requirement for Good aligned individuals to have compassion. Second, the whole statement is fallacious since it kinda implies only Good individuals can care - but Miko was good to her last breath, and never cared about anyone, whilst RC is Evil, and yet cares.

Grey Wolf

[brian 333]

My grandmother raised chickens for the eggs. They were different from the chickens she raised for food: she named them, gave them a huge pen with a roof to keep the hawks away and a secure fencd to keep the bobcats away, and fed them a select diet. She even had a separate area for brooding birds to set on their eggs.

And she shed no tears the day a neighbor's dog got in and killed a few dozen of them.

It's not that she didn't care. It's that she knew in 120 days the brood hens would restock the egg pen. It was an inconvenient loss of income, but it drove home the old saying about counting chickens.

The gods, good or evil, have seen literally millions of people come and go. Some go quietly in thenight, some screaming in terror, but eventually all of them die. Their life means nothing in the long run, in the big picture. They have their moment in the sun then move along to more permanent accommodations. It's what mortals do.

Every year the grass dies, then grows back. When you are cultivating a lawn you expect this, and you don't mourn the passing of each blade of grass. Your job is to create the conditions for the lawn to prosper. Mortals are, in the view of the gods, a crop to be harvested. If they are anything like humans, they celebrate the harvest. It is the ultimate destiny of every ear of grain, chicken, and person.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

she shed no tears the day a neighbor's dog got in and killed a few dozen of them.

It's not that she didn't care. It's that she knew in 120 days the brood hens would restock the egg pen. It was an inconvenient loss of income, but it drove home the old saying about counting chickens.

Honestly, it does sound like she didn't care. And good for her, because you can't really raise chickens for food or for egg laying if you get attached to them. Like you said, she cared about loss of income, not about the individual chickens. Which is fine, because your grandmother was not intending to be the god of chickens (I'd imagine).

For the opposite approach, I cannot recommend a better book than Reaper Man, by Terry Pratchett:

Aʟʟ ᴛʜɪɴɢs ᴛʜᴀᴛ ᴀʀᴇ, ᴀʀᴇ ᴏᴜʀs. Bᴜᴛ ᴡᴇ ᴍᴜsᴛ ᴄᴀʀᴇ. Fᴏʀ ɪғ ᴡᴇ ᴅᴏ ɴᴏᴛ ᴄᴀʀᴇ, ᴡᴇ ᴅᴏ ɴᴏᴛ ᴇxɪsᴛ. Iғ ᴡᴇ ᴅᴏ ɴᴏᴛ ᴇxɪsᴛ, ᴛʜᴇɴ ᴛʜᴇʀᴇ ɪs ɴᴏᴛʜɪɴɢ ʙᴜᴛ ʙʟɪɴᴅ ᴏʙʟɪᴠɪᴏɴ. Aɴᴅ ᴇᴠᴇɴ ᴏʙʟɪᴠɪᴏɴ ᴍᴜsᴛ ᴇɴᴅ sᴏᴍᴇᴅᴀʏ. Lᴏʀᴅ, ᴡɪʟʟ ʏᴏᴜ ɢʀᴀɴᴛ ᴍᴇ ᴊᴜsᴛ ᴀ ʟɪᴛᴛʟᴇ ᴛɪᴍᴇ? Fᴏʀ ᴛʜᴇ ᴘʀᴏᴘᴇʀ ʙᴀʟᴀɴᴄᴇ ᴏғ ᴛʜɪɴɢs. Tᴏ ʀᴇᴛᴜʀɴ ᴡʜᴀᴛ ᴡᴀs ɢɪᴠᴇɴ. Fᴏʀ ᴛʜᴇ sᴀᴋᴇ ᴏғ ᴘʀɪsᴏɴᴇʀs ᴀɴᴅ ᴛʜᴇ ғʟɪɢʜᴛ ᴏғ ʙɪʀᴅs.

Death took a step backwards.

It was impossible to read expression in Azrael's features.

Death glanced sideways at the servants.

Lᴏʀᴅ, ᴡʜᴀᴛ ᴄᴀɴ ᴛʜᴇ ʜᴀʀᴠᴇsᴛ ʜᴏᴘᴇ ғᴏʀ, ɪғ ɴᴏᴛ ғᴏʀ ᴛʜᴇ ᴄᴀʀᴇ ᴏғ ᴛʜᴇ Rᴇᴀᴘᴇʀ Mᴀɴ?

(There is also a lot of comparisons of men to blades of grass, but I can't very well just quote the whole book here)

When the gods of OotS display anything even close to Death's sentiment here, I may think they care. They are nowhere near close to it, though.

Grey Wolf

[D.One]

I can't tell whether this is why the forum is awesome or whether it's just a sign of ADD. (not AD&D, of course)

I mean, a discussion of the climax of the book has, so far, 10 posts about how old a character only seen 2 books ago was when she died.

And now we've moved on to debate Divine Psychology: Do the gods Care?

[zimmerwald1915]

And now we've moved on to debate Divine Psychology: Do the gods Care?

Does it matter whether they do or not? The natural order of things is the natural order of things, and it will continue to operate, machine-like, regardless of who cares, or about what.

Death, quoted above, is wrong. The sigh of the oppressed creature is not for the solace of compassion. It is for utopia, that the natural order of things may be replaced by a better one some day.

[Kish]

Actions are evidence. Lack of action is lack of evidence.

Ah, sloganeering. Somehow I think that if I was casually watching you drown when I could easily step forward and pull you out of the water, your stance that lack of actions were definitionally lack of evidence rather than evidence of something would not survive as long as you would.

You appear to be making an argument that takes the form: The rules say that can't be the case, so it isn't the case. But that is illogical. Observable facts trump theories, not the other way around--however attached you are to the theories, however repulsive you find the facts.

I think Grey Wolf's "gut bacteria" analogy is a good one, but whatever words you use to describe it, the gods' callousness toward mortals is on clear display. If you wish to argue against that you need to address it, not just cite D&D rules and try to wave it away.

[D.One]

On the other completely different hand, how can Durkon take 20-minute bathes and still be smelly, as per testimony of some of his companions (mostly Belkar)?

[Keltest]

On the other completely different hand, how can Durkon take 20-minute bathes and still be smelly, as per testimony of some of his companions (mostly Belkar)?

Armor gets real smelly real fast.

[hamishspence]

and the part that gets smelly (the padding) is presumably difficult to wash often.

I would guess that the padding probably only gets washed once a month or so, even if the adventurer washes themselves much more often.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Actually, the padding/aketon/arming doublet would just get replaced, as it is very difficult to properly clean quilted fabrics.

Of course, that doesn't apply when you have access to a prestidigitation cantrip.

[hamishspence]

Actually, the padding/aketon/arming doublet would just get replaced, as it is very difficult to properly clean quilted fabrics.

True - but if you're "in the field" - the wilderness, a few weeks away from any shop - you'd probably scrub as best you can in the river, press the water out of it, and hope for the best.

At least, that's the way that fiction that deals with armour with padding, handles it.

[Keltest]

Actually, the padding/aketon/arming doublet would just get replaced, as it is very difficult to properly clean quilted fabrics.

Of course, that doesn't apply when you have access to a prestidigitation cantrip.

More likely, Durkon and Roy just suck it up and only deal with it when it becomes so bad that they themselves are bothered by it.

[brian 333]

Honestly, it does sound like she didn't care. And good for her, because you can't really raise chickens for food or for egg laying if you get attached to them. Like you said, she cared about loss of income, not about the individual chickens. Which is fine, because your grandmother was not intending to be the god of chickens (I'd imagine).


Grey Wolf

Well, yes and no. She cared about the chickens in aggregate rather than individually. This is like Thor's apparent lack of concern for the village. A human is of no consequence; humans die every day. A village of humans is slightly less unimportant because thousands of humans die every day. Thor's concern is for the prosperity of the aggregate of sapient beings in his domain.

However, I believe the cited strip was an illustration of an unrelated issue: that gods must individually grant every spell to every cleric on a daily basis. If so, how could any god ever get on with being an active agent for its cause? Thor can't concentrate on defeating Surtuur because the damned phone keeps ringing.

Extrapolating from that strip anything at all about a deity's concern for individual worshippers is akin to labeling dogs as herbivores because you saw one eat grass. One strip is not a pattern of behavior. The dog does eat grass, but given a choice between a trough of alfalfa and a stinky dead rat, the dog will invariably choose to eat the rat.

[Rogar Demonblud]

True, but Surtur isn't getting anything done because he's too busy with his worshippers.

This is why earlier editions were better, as they had most spells being handed out by lower-level functionaries on the deity's staff. Gods only got involved with 6th and 7th grade cleric spells, which pretty much no one got access to.

[hamishspence]

Well, yes and no. She cared about the chickens in aggregate rather than individually. This is like Thor's apparent lack of concern for the village. A human is of no consequence; humans die every day. A village of humans is slightly less unimportant because thousands of humans die every day. Thor's concern is for the prosperity of the aggregate of sapient beings in his domain.

And the difference between a good deity and a nongood deity is that while both are protective of their followers - the good deity makes sacrifices for them - whereas the non-good deity doesn't - the nongood deity will usually be making decisions based on a "do I benefit" and "will it hurt me if I do this" calculus.

Like Enor and Ganjii:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0721.html

but on a much larger scale.

[Snails]

However, I believe the cited strip was an illustration of an unrelated issue: that gods must individually grant every spell to every cleric on a daily basis. If so, how could any god ever get on with being an active agent for its cause? Thor can't concentrate on defeating Surtuur because the damned phone keeps ringing.

No, it is nothing more than a joke.

"Thor granted me spells" means what? Did he do so personally as depicted? The Giant is having fun with the usual language in the rules and the very idea that a powerful divine being can usefully be depicted in humanoid form.

[Ironsmith]

Caring requires actions when the people you care for are in danger, pain, experiencing problems, etc. Even if it is only a shoulder to cry on. Apathy is not caring.

I would like to again restate that the gods do not have free reign over the world. Each of them is limited in what they do on their own, to their respective domains (which is why we can see a Thor-made storm in the northern lands, but not, say, a Mass Cure Critical Wounds effect on the whole ship). As for what they can do indirectly, that is subject to the wills of the clerics... sure, they may agree to carry out their deity's bidding, but they get the ultimate say in the specifics, leaving their god with just the potential "thumbs-up/thumbs-down" response of continuing to grant that cleric powers (not to mention, that cleric gets all the credit for what happened). The gods might sound powerful, being gods and all, but that's still an incredibly inefficient way of getting things done.

No, lack of action is evidence for lack of caring. If someone that supposedly cares for you is never there when you are in need, they don't care for you. Their lack of action is proof of their lack of care. So for the gods.

And you're making the assumption that they are never there, ever. We don't see them do much in the comic... but honestly, how much would we see if they were constantly busy doing stuff (through their clerics and some spontaneous events of consistent sources)? Not a whole lot there, either.

Precisely. They don't care enough to do so. But given enough time (and they have had decades, which is more than enough time), it would be possible, since Plane shift can take multiple people in one go. The logistics of it are much easier than your idea of mass-resurrecting every individual after killing them all, but either would show some inkling of caring. But there isn't one.

I'm not entirely sure what your point even is now. You were saying that they can't resurrect everyone because they haven't said they could, and I pointed out that Plane Shift wasn't an option, either, by that logic.

Yes, I get it that you do. But you have no evidence that the gods care. No, not even the good ones. You have empty platitudes.

And you have... nothing. Not as in "there's no evidence", but your evidence is that "nothing" keeps happening. Which is on the assumption that "business as usual" is "nothing".

There is your problem: Good alignment does NOT mean they care about others. Good alignment, in fact, does not condone courses of action that lead to mass murder at a planetary scale. In fact, I don't even know why you assume Heimdall is Good. And as Kish will tell you, none of the OotS gods fall under the category of Good.

On the contrary; the quote Hamishspence pulled seems to imply that it does, indeed, condone extreme action like that. If a good dragon can decide that PCs have to get the boot to protect an important site, without taking a hit to their alignment, then it stands to reason that the gods can give a much larger population the boot to protect the long-term future of the planet, again without taking a hit to their alignment. (Besides, since when have "good" and "nice" been synonyms?)

Anyway, I hold Heimdall to be (most likely) good based on a few points; most of it in rhetoric, so I'm sure your mileage will vary, but here goes:

-Heimdall does, indeed, show some concern for the mortals during his speech, even if you want to claim it's only the token "oh, that's unfortunate" you could expect from anyone else.
-Heimdall's position is based on caution and certainty, which makes sense during long-term planning, regardless of alignment. It's not inconceivable that he might have been pushing for something like the Plane Shift course of action this whole time, only to get brushed off by the other gods (mere speculation, I know, but in-character, at least).
-When Hel points out that the dwarves will all go to her, she also singles out Heimdall as someone who would change his vote in light of this new information (implying a history wherein the dwarves are considered important enough to him that the extra risk in delaying the world's destruction would be worth it to him)

I don't want to argue that letting the mortals handle it is the Good action to take. In fact, I find your attempt at putting words into my mouth quite offensive. And I've already given you the Good response to this scenario: not procrastinating on a problem until the solution might involve mass murder.

Fair enough in regards to words in your mouth; on review, I appear to have mistaken Jasdoif's argument for yours. My bad.

Anyway, I'm not sure calling that the only Good response here is a good idea (that also sounds disturbingly Miko-ish). A Good response that would fix the problem, but not by any means the only Good response.

Given also that a response of that proportion, regardless of whether it's blowing the whole planet up or evacuating it first, has to go through a dysfunctional committee, I don't think it says much about the gods' individual senses of morality, one way or the other. We've got some who are unabashedly Evil, like Hel and Fenrir, and we've got some who have their priorities all out of whack, like Njord and Balder, and that's before getting into the ones who seem to be somewhat responsible, but may still oppose a given plan of action after weighing the merits, like Heimdall (all of that in one of the three pantheons that still exist). The fact that the gods as a whole have not put out that particular Good answer to the crisis does not mean the individual members are not Good or do not care.

[Snails]

True enough. Let me, therefore, restate my position:

We are discussing whether the gods care about humans as anything other than termites infesting their house (to use Rich's words), insects (to use Kish's) or necessary-but-ignorable intestinal fauna (to use mine). Ironsmith argued that "Good alignment means they care for other beings". I find this a wrong statement on two basis: first, as hamishspence just found, there is no requirement for Good aligned individuals to have compassion. Second, the whole statement is fallacious since it kinda implies only Good individuals can care - but Miko was good to her last breath, and never cared about anyone, whilst RC is Evil, and yet cares.

Discussions about values without weighing relative importance or intention often go nowhere.

Redcloak cares. And his caring informs both Good and Evil goals that he seeks to achieve by Evil means.

A Good dragon might be willing to endure great personal sacrifice for certain Good goals, while not caring at all about the fates of very many particular persons. Good and Neutral actions (and inactions) may balance off into Good overall. Or Neutral overall.

The Giant is purposefully pushing a little at a classic oversimplification in OotS. Good does not necessarily require being consistently nice. Evil does not necessarily require being consistently mean.

[D.One]

True, but Surtur isn't getting anything done because he's too busy with his worshippers.

This is why earlier editions were better, as they had most spells being handed out by lower-level functionaries on the deity's staff. Gods only got involved with 6th and 7th grade cleric spells, which pretty much no one got access to.

As a matter of fact, 3.0 Deities and Demigods states that "the task of granting divine spells places very little demand on a deity". That strip is, as it has already been noted, a joke on the way DnD talks about the action.

[Jasdoif]

Precisely. They don't care enough to do so. But given enough time (and they have had decades, which is more than enough time), it would be possible, since Plane shift can take multiple people in one go. The logistics of it are much easier than your idea of mass-resurrecting every individual after killing them all, but either would show some inkling of caring. But there isn't one.

I think you're stretching a bit with the plane shift plan, here. That they didn't do it means they either didn't think of it (unlikely) or they found another approach more palatable, which could easily mean the risks outweighed the potential rewards. And saving souls from the Snarl is a feature across the entire spectrum, from "souls are innately valuable" to "we can't eat them if the Snarl eats them".

I suspect the last time around, the pragmatic discussion involved a combination of

• "If the mortals fix it themselves, we don't have to do a thing."
• "If we knew extensive planar shifting wouldn't weaken the Snarl's multiplanar prison, there wouldn't be rifts in it now."
• "If a rift forms mid-plane-shift and the Snarl follows to the destination, we've just made our own problem worse and lost everything we were trying to preserve, possibly including ourselves!"

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I would like to again restate that the gods do not have free reign over the world. Each of them is limited in what they do on their own, to their respective domains (which is why we can see a Thor-made storm in the northern lands, but not, say, a Mass Cure Critical Wounds effect on the whole ship). As for what they can do indirectly, that is subject to the wills of the clerics... sure, they may agree to carry out their deity's bidding, but they get the ultimate say in the specifics, leaving their god with just the potential "thumbs-up/thumbs-down" response of continuing to grant that cleric powers (not to mention, that cleric gets all the credit for what happened). The gods might sound powerful, being gods and all, but that's still an incredibly inefficient way of getting things done.

And thus we are back to this benefit of the doubt you keep giving them, and somehow expect everyone else to give them too. It does not work that way, especially not for determining if they care. Absent evidence that they do, and in view of the many ways they could try to help, whatever the level of efficiency that might look like, but then upon observation we see doing **** all, the logical conclusion is not "oh, they are bleeding hearts, but their hands are tied, boohoo them". The logical conclusion is "they don't care. They have no problem contemplating the extermination of millions to save their own skins.".

They could be doing more. They do not, for Doylists reasons ("this is the story of the OotS and how they saved the world, and thus can't be upstaged by how the gods saved the world") and Watsonian ones ("The OotS have to step up to save the world, because the gods can't be bothered to do so in a way that saves the people in the world, because the gods of ootS don't care about mortals")

And you're making the assumption that they are never there, ever. We don't see them do much in the comic... but honestly, how much would we see if they were constantly busy doing stuff (through their clerics and some spontaneous events of consistent sources)? Not a whole lot there, either.

"Not seeing them do anything for the world" is evidence for "they don't care enough about the world to do something about it". I don't assume. I take their inaction at face value.

I'm not entirely sure what your point even is now. You were saying that they can't resurrect everyone because they haven't said they could, and I pointed out that Plane Shift wasn't an option, either, by that logic.

I am saying that they could have prevented this crisis from happening years ago, but they didn't because they don't care. It is way too late now to use my "gate everyone to outer planes" plan - thus they can't do it, and none of them would suggest it now because it is too late.

Your plan, however, could still be implemented. One of the gods could say "wait a mo', how about we kill everyone, but then we all compromise to resurrect them all in the new planet?". But they don't suggest that as a way to get more "yes" votes. Why don't they? The most parsimonious answer is because they know they don't care that much, and it won't move a single vote. Or, if you are willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, because they can't actually pull off millions of resurrections. Either way, they are damned, for having waited this long to act.

And you have... nothing. Not as in "there's no evidence", but your evidence is that "nothing" keeps happening. Which is on the assumption that "business as usual" is "nothing".

On the contrary. As I am now bored of repeating, in the face of endless crises that could use divine intervention if any of the gods cared to help, "nothing" is evidence of uncaring gods.

On the contrary; the quote Hamishspence pulled seems to imply that it does, indeed, condone extreme action like that. If a good dragon can decide that PCs have to get the boot to protect an important site, without taking a hit to their alignment, then it stands to reason that the gods can give a much larger population the boot to protect the long-term future of the planet, again without taking a hit to their alignment. (Besides, since when have "good" and "nice" been synonyms?)

Since you tried to sell the ridiculous argument that good gods were automatically caring gods. Good to know you are now admitting you had no leg to stand on.
FTR:

"There are gods who are Good-aligned. Good alignment means they care for other beings. Mortals make up the overwhelming majority of beings. Ergo, Good gods care about mortals."

Anyway, I hold Heimdall to be (most likely) good based on a few points; most of it in rhetoric, so I'm sure your mileage will vary, but here goes:

-Heimdall does, indeed, show some concern for the mortals during his speech, even if you want to claim it's only the token "oh, that's unfortunate" you could expect from anyone else.
-Heimdall's position is based on caution and certainty, which makes sense during long-term planning, regardless of alignment. It's not inconceivable that he might have been pushing for something like the Plane Shift course of action this whole time, only to get brushed off by the other gods (mere speculation, I know, but in-character, at least).
-When Hel points out that the dwarves will all go to her, she also singles out Heimdall as someone who would change his vote in light of this new information (implying a history wherein the dwarves are considered important enough to him that the extra risk in delaying the world's destruction would be worth it to him)

OK, well, on the other hand, he just proposed exterminating tens or hundreds of millions of sentient beings. Should the gods go along with his plan, it'll make V's familicide look positively puny in comparison. If you think Heimdall is good, what exactly do you think of V?

Also, Hel implies Heimdall would only change his vote to prevent her from gaining supremacy, not because he gives a damn about mortals. Also, your speculation of "in-character long term planning" is completely circular, resting only on the fact you've already assumed he gives a damn.

Anyway, I'm not sure calling that the only Good response here is a good idea (that also sounds disturbingly Miko-ish). A Good response that would fix the problem, but not by any means the only Good response.

I have yet to see another solution that could be implemented immediately that would work, so yes, I think "not waiting until the last possible minute" does cover every possible solution that would be valid, good and caring. Because if there was a good, valid and caring solution they could implement right now, and the gods were caring about mortals, I'd expect them to at least bring it up.

Given also that a response of that proportion, regardless of whether it's blowing the whole planet up or evacuating it first, has to go through a dysfunctional committee, I don't think it says much about the gods' individual senses of morality, one way or the other.

Oh, it does. Because these few caring ones you seem to think exists didn't even bother to try. Again, you are expecting me to believe these gods care about humans despite having no positive proof of it, and every action they take or fail to take demonstrating instead lack of care. All you have left is hand wave after hand wave of "oh, I'm sure they do care, it's just the poor all-powerful beings are stuck in committee and can't get anything through". BS. They could take unilateral action to at the very least save their own followers. Or their own priests, as Hel intends to do. But they do not, nor have they tried. I don't care how weak you think they are, they could have done more than absolutely nothing for the last century.

It is perhaps the most telling that of all the gods, the only one even thinking of saving a non-deity is actually Hel, and clearly only because she is keenly aware of what happens when you don't have a priesthood. That's how much the "good" gods care: the Evil one is going to save more of her own followers than they are.

The fact that the gods as a whole have not put out that particular Good answer to the crisis does not mean the individual members are not Good or do not care.

Yes, yes it does.

I think you're stretching a bit with the plane shift plan, here. That they didn't do it means they either didn't think of it (unlikely) or they found another approach more palatable, which could easily mean the risks outweighed the potential rewards. And saving souls from the Snarl is a feature across the entire spectrum, from "souls are innately valuable" to "we can't eat them if the Snarl eats them".

Given that I only came up with that to indicate what a caring god would do (because, you know, saving lives you care about handedly outweighs almost any other risk - and sincerely, I don't see what risks would be involved in my plan that would outweigh saving lives), I really don't think I am stretching it. In fact, your alts do suggests that the gods don't care, they just see mortals as future batteries, and thus that, you know, they don't care about mortals other than as future earnings. Which is my point all along.

Grey Wolf