May UA's Up: Ever Wanted To Be Part Horse?

[Sigreid]

Yeah, that would make a lot more sense.

Still wouldn't let them climb, though.

Depends on what they're climbing. A sheer wall, probably not. A normal cliff with outcroppings and such, maybe.

[Dr. Cliché]

Depends on what they're climbing. A sheer wall, probably not. A normal cliff with outcroppings and such, maybe.

I think their rear end would cause too much trouble even on a cliff with outcroppings. It would basically act like a leaver, pulling their top half away from any handholds.

[Chaosmancer]

The problem is the combnination of the two - "the demon is hiding in this crowd and while looking for him, I've just discovered the tiefling/elf/genasi is registered as evil, I'm good, I must smite him as my god demands".

When they altered Detect Good and Evil, it removed the trick of using the spell to sweep the party (and every NPC interacted with) for evil. This was a good change in my mind. If they retcon these races into being dual-natured (and into a nature that is detectable by the spell), then it means those races have a severe drawback for players, since they are "exposed" to alignment-checking, while other races aren't. Its probably a minor thing, but worth considering.

But they wouldn't be exposed to alignment checking. All the spell will do is tell you they have a fiendish aura.

Man, that could do with some easy comedy with an oblivious player.

Paladin: "Sir, are you aware one of your waitresses has the aura of... A DEVIL!"

Barkeep: "Which one? The blonde halfling lass or the red-skinned lady with the horns who makes fire spit from her eyes when Pete gets handsy?"

Paladin: "The one with the devil horns.... Um..."

Barkeep: "Think that there might be what we call 'a clue'"

[Sigreid]

I think their rear end would cause too much trouble even on a cliff with outcroppings. It would basically act like a leaver, pulling their top half away from any handholds.

I keep thinking of goats. While I realize horses and goats are not the same I think the sapient brain may be able to compensate.

[Personification]

But they wouldn't be exposed to alignment checking. All the spell will do is tell you they have a fiendish aura.

Man, that could do with some easy comedy with an oblivious player.

Paladin: "Sir, are you aware one of your waitresses has the aura of... A DEVIL!"

Barkeep: "Which one? The blonde halfling lass or the red-skinned lady with the horns who makes fire spit from her eyes when Pete gets handsy?"

Paladin: "The one with the devil horns.... Um..."

Barkeep: "Think that there might be what we call 'a clue'"

Actually, the Halfling also would have had a fiendish aura, but the paladin couldn't detect it through her lead sheet.

[Tectorman]

I just realized what a missed opportunity the title of this thread for the May UA is.

Oh, well. May the Horse be with you all!

[Tectorman]

What about this as a solution to the Large/Medium Centaur issue?

Dwarves, Gnomes, Halflings, and Elves have multiple subraces (Elves are getting more now). So let's just have multiple breeds of Centaur. Some Large but wielding Medium weapons, some Medium but with a Large's carrying capacity. And then we can just say that the MM Centaurs are the Large breed version.

[Temperjoke]

Here's my ultra-important, desperate-to-know-the-answer-for question about centaurs: Do they still get a penalty for using a lance in melee, and are two hands still required? Cause I would love to have my Shining Force 2 centaur knights/paladins! :D

((visual references here and here and here and here ))

[strangebloke]

Here's my ultra-important, desperate-to-know-the-answer-for question about centaurs: Do they still get a penalty for using a lance in melee, and are two hands still required? Cause I would love to have my Shining Force 2 centaur knights/paladins! :D

((visual references here and here and here and here ))

I know, right!

The way the rules are written, I think that they can use a lance in one hand just fine, since they "always count as mounted." but I'm pretty sure that they have the same disadvantage in melee as everyone else.

In any case, Shining Force centaurs are probably medium sized, so that's no concern, and the race seems particularly suited for a knight-type build.

[MeeposFire]

I know, right!

The way the rules are written, I think that they can use a lance in one hand just fine, since they "always count as mounted." but I'm pretty sure that they have the same disadvantage in melee as everyone else.

In any case, Shining Force centaurs are probably medium sized, so that's no concern, and the race seems particularly suited for a knight-type build.

Honestly my Shining Force centaurs almost always used throwing spears rather than lances. I did have both on them but I rarely even bothered to switch them as the spear was almost as good or better quite a bit of the time.

[Temperjoke]

Honestly my Shining Force centaurs almost always used throwing spears rather than lances. I did have both on them but I rarely even bothered to switch them as the spear was almost as good or better quite a bit of the time.

See, I often had them on the front end, while the full ranged people were behind them. Except for my pegasus knights and other flyers, they were in a flanking group usually.

[MeeposFire]

See, I often had them on the front end, while the full ranged people were behind them. Except for my pegasus knights and other flyers, they were in a flanking group usually.

In SHinging Force one centaurs were my primary range attacks since I found archers to not be much better and teh centaurs could attack up close.

In the second game I only had a couple so I ended up needing them more as "archers" than ever before. Also I think the best weapon in the game for them as a spear rather than lance so I would not need to bother with the lance.

[Knaight]

I keep thinking of goats. While I realize horses and goats are not the same I think the sapient brain may be able to compensate.

The sapient brain doesn't mean much for climbing skill, at least outside of bringing tool use into it. Instinctive climbers routinely do quite well, as can be seen by the sort of ridiculous movement squirrels can get up to on vertical surfaces. There's just not a lot that gets around a human not being able to pull the weight of a horse up a cliff by climbing hand holds while the load is awkwardly distributed, or horses just being terrible climbers (as I pointed out upthread, horses are not mountain goats).

You can, of course, just choose to ignore this and have centaurs climb anyways. It just runs into some really ridiculous mental imagery that's going to annoy some people.

[SaintRidley]

OK, I get that part of the design bible they have has "No PC's larger than Medium" in great big, bold, triple-underlined letters, but this part of the Centaur entry is ridiculous:

"In size, they are comparable to a human rider mounted on a horse"

"Your size is Medium, yet you tower over most other humanoids."

Just bite the bullet already. Put a big asterix like you did with flying PC races that "Available with participating DM's only" or just crumple the size rules up into a ball and throw them out altogether!

Agreed. I find it patently silly that PC Minotaurs or Centaurs are different size categories from their Monster Manual cousins. This kind of thing is always an instant turn-off, never going to use it at my table, thing for me.

[Luccan]

Hmm... I don't like Minotaurs losing Labyrinthine Recall, it fits much better with the lore of the Minotaur and really isn't OP or anything. There should be something that ties them into The Minotaur and its maze, in my opinion. Advantage on Survival checks to find your way back to anywhere you've been?

I think I'd really like subraces for Minotaurs and Centaurs. I'd really like more variety if these get made into playable races (I'm not crazy about the lack of subraces for races outside core). Archer Centaurs and Minotaurs who get navigation abilities would be nice.

[WhismurWanders]

Hmm... I don't like Minotaurs losing Labyrinthine Recall, it fits much better with the lore of the Minotaur and really isn't OP or anything. There should be something that ties them into The Minotaur and its maze, in my opinion. Advantage on Survival checks to find your way back to anywhere you've been?

The whole point of Daedalus's labyrinth was that the Minotaur wasn't able to navigate it though, functioning as a good way to trap both the sacrifices and the Minotaur inside.

[the_brazenburn]

The whole point of Daedalus's labyrinth was that the Minotaur wasn't able to navigate it though, functioning as a good way to trap both the sacrifices and the Minotaur inside.

We've already had this discussion.

The Minotaur could navigate the maze, but not get out. Probably it was either sealed beyond the capabilities of his Str score, or the exit was too small for him to fit through, or the Minotaur simply didn't want to leave. Whichever is true, it could still find its way around; otherwise the Athenian tributes would have died of starvation rather than being mauled by the Minotaur.

[Luccan]

We've already had this discussion.

The Minotaur could navigate the maze, but not get out. Probably it was either sealed beyond the capabilities of his Str score, or the exit was too small for him to fit through, or the Minotaur simply didn't want to leave. Whichever is true, it could still find its way around; otherwise the Athenian tributes would have died of starvation rather than being mauled by the Minotaur.

I'm going to have to agree. It was the Minotaur's prison because there wasn't a way for him to bust out, not because he couldn't find the exit. Especially considering the thing would have to be sealed in some manner to prevent escape by his victims. I've always thought it would be more like a pit. Drop them down, leave them to die as they're hunted down in endless hallways.

[Vorpal Crowbar]

To illustrate just how comical the Medium-sized Centaur is, it can ride a horse. While being (fluff-wise but not mechanically) as big as a horse, carrying as much as a horse, and bearing a Medium-sized rider, which can be another Centaur. Which can have another Centaur on its back. And so on and so forth.

Wow this is stupid.

I laughed really hard at this - yeah its a bad design, at least it is a playtest. Hopefully they will scrap it and start over


VC

[MaxWilson]

The sapient brain doesn't mean much for climbing skill, at least outside of bringing tool use into it. Instinctive climbers routinely do quite well, as can be seen by the sort of ridiculous movement squirrels can get up to on vertical surfaces. There's just not a lot that gets around a human not being able to pull the weight of a horse up a cliff by climbing hand holds while the load is awkwardly distributed, or horses just being terrible climbers (as I pointed out upthread, horses are not mountain goats).

You can, of course, just choose to ignore this and have centaurs climb anyways. It just runs into some really ridiculous mental imagery that's going to annoy some people.

That's not unique to this UA though. Per 5E PHB rules, even regular MM centaurs, horses, and even hippos can climb trees almost as fast as they can walk on solid ground--even as birds and dragons drift through the skies barely faster than hot air balloons.

Anyway, the blame goes on the PHB climbing rules.

[MaxWilson]

We've already had this discussion.

The Minotaur could navigate the maze, but not get out. Probably it was either sealed beyond the capabilities of his Str score, or the exit was too small for him to fit through, or the Minotaur simply didn't want to leave. Whichever is true, it could still find its way around; otherwise the Athenian tributes would have died of starvation rather than being mauled by the Minotaur.

Then why make it a maze instead of just a cage? Where's the added value of the labyrinthine complexity?

[PhoenixPhyre]

Then why make it a maze instead of just a cage? Where's the added value of the labyrinthine complexity?

As I understand it, the labyrinth was ceremonial rather than functional. There have been several cultures with "mazes" that have no dead ends, no wrong turns, just a complex spiral in to the center. For symbolic/religious reasons.

[Knaight]

That's not unique to this UA though. Per 5E PHB rules, even regular MM centaurs, horses, and even hippos can climb trees almost as fast as they can walk on solid ground--even as birds and dragons drift through the skies barely faster than hot air balloons.

Anyway, the blame goes on the PHB climbing rules.

That's fair, but if they're going to bring in new climbing rules for the centaur (which they did) they might as well just hard ban it.

[MaxWilson]

That's fair, but if they're going to bring in new climbing rules for the centaur (which they did) they might as well just hard ban it.

Absolutely.

I could also see a soft ban along the lines of "disadvantage on all climbing checks that require arms and hands, and a DC 15+ Athletics check for every 10' of elevation climbed or fall." So certain exceptional centaurs might still be able to climb trees at some risk, which is probably amazing to see. (Perhaps the amazing centaur climbs in hexapedal fashion using hooves as quasi-hands, like a human acrobat juggling umbrellas with their feet.)

[Dao_Pun]

i am now obliged to make a Minotaur shadow monk that runs like naruto...

[LudicSavant]

I laughed really hard at this - yeah its a bad design, at least it is a playtest. Hopefully they will scrap it and start over


VC

Yeah, honestly I think they both should be remade from scratch. It's even a bad design if you ignore all the Medium shenanigans. Just take a look at the Minotaur... another bland pigeonholed race. Oooof.

[EvilAnagram]

Yeah, honestly I think they both should be remade from scratch. It's even a bad design if you ignore all the Medium shenanigans. Just take a look at the Minotaur... another bland pigeonholed race. Oooof.

Why do you say that?

[LudicSavant]

Why do you say that?

Many of the reasons have been mentioned by others in the thread already.

[EvilAnagram]

Many of the reasons have been mentioned by others in the thread already.

Most people have been talking about the medium size and arguing whether the Labyrinthine recall should come back. Scrapping the entire thing and starting over seems extreme.

[MaxWilson]

Most people have been talking about the medium size and arguing whether the Labyrinthine recall should come back. Scrapping the entire thing and starting over seems extreme.

Also the relative uselessness of horns--though I think they are wrong about that despite the low damage. Grapplers always appreciate natural attacks, and a reaction shove is interesting for melee kiting and tanking both. Also useful for breaking free of being grappled, since Shove is the standard countermeasure for breaking a grapple if you have extra attacks.

Minotaurs in this UA are better than Goliaths and Dragonborns at least.