OOTS #1122 - The Discussion Thread

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think she just rolled badly, for my part.

Anyone fails a save on a natural 1. And as far as pure mechanics go, Roy should have a lower Will save than Elan and only marginally better than Haley's, so I'd say Rich is treating "I'm writing this character as strong/weak-willed" as more important than the pure D&D mechanics.

You can accuse Hilgya of many things (and I have), but "weak willed" is definitely not one of them. She is possibly the most obstinate and hard-headed character so far. I doubt even Xykon is as self-deluding and reality-rejecting as Hilgya. So I think "she rolled badly" is more likely.

But that does remind me, does Roy get a bonus to save against this, since he already broke free from Greg's attempt at the moot?

GW

[Kish]

Dashing Swordsman has a weak Will save,

1) Citation needed and 2) it really doesn't matter. Check the save progression; two or three levels of a class with a bad save would make a difference of one point, and if it has a good Will save multiclassing would make his Will save two points better than if he stayed in one good-Will-save class. Even if Dashing Swordsman's Will save is bad Elan has around +9 from class levels, compared to Roy's +5. If their Wisdom gap is big enough Roy's total Will save might be better (indeed, I think it probably is, so I take back what I said about Elan's being actually better), but only marginally. The "Roy has a powerful will and Elan has the willpower of a wilting leek" narrative the story's gone with for a long time only works ignoring D&D mechanics, or stretching way beyond what can be justified to make it not ignore them.

You can accuse Hilgya of many things (and I have), but "weak willed" is definitely not one of them. She is possibly the most obstinate and hard-headed character so far. I doubt even Xykon is as self-deluding and reality-rejecting as Hilgya. So I think "she rolled badly" is more likely.

But that does remind me, does Roy get a bonus to save against this, since he already broke free from Greg's attempt at the moot?

GW

Not in D&D rules.

I suspect Rich is treating Hilgya's type of reality-rejecting as going with weak-willed, not with strong-willed. She's easy to tempt, easy to manipulate, and lacking self-control. Sure, you can't break through her delusions, but by the same token, try getting Elan to acknowledge that his hand puppet is not in fact a god.

[eilandesq]

You can accuse Hilgya of many things (and I have), but "weak willed" is definitely not one of them. She is possibly the most obstinate and hard-headed character so far. I doubt even Xykon is as self-deluding and reality-rejecting as Hilgya. So I think "she rolled badly" is more likely.

But that does remind me, does Roy get a bonus to save against this, since he already broke free from Greg's attempt at the moot?

GW

I suspect the sword may be helping--it seems likely not to be a coincidence that Roy threw off that last Domination in his last fight with Durkula at the moment when the sword healed him of all of that damage and negative levels. Or Durkula expects as much, and decided to concentrate on other targets just in case Roy is resistant or immune.

[TRH]

In the previous strip Durkon* says he will "Let you try your trick, knowing it's a trick, and that I should ignore it." Then 5 panels later, on the next page, after Durkon Classic shows him a memory he says "We'll be better off if I ignore what I know about them and just fight like they were any other high-level party".

The word choice of 'ignore' twice in such quick succession, bracketing the memory, implies a connection to me.

Well, yes. He's going into viewing the memory skeptical that it will teach him anything about the Order - so much so that he requested it not be about them so as not to color his perceptions. Likewise, in the real world, he's decided to abandon his preconceptions about the Order, because he believes they've been compromised. In other words, his real world dialogue reflects the same attitude that he has before they start viewing the memory. How does it follow that he's finished with the memory?

[KorvinStarmast]

The link you give is to one DM's opinions - those are not RAW.

Before I respond: thanks again for your insights. Not all that 3.5 savvy when it gets down to gritty details.

I disagree with your review of HICC's reasoning. (He's very well versed in 3.5, as are a number of folks who post here). He explored the RAW and finds that the dominate does not end, since the spell does not provide for that and the ability acts as the spell.

Also, even allowing for that, the RAW require a daily "refresh" of the control or a saving throw is granted.

Right; the dominate lasts until the next day's refresh does not show up, and all that does is offer another save. For somone with a low will save, it is still bloody powerful, particularly if the one you just dominated is Belkar, Death's Little Helper

High level adventurers have at least some chance at saving.

Yes, but it takes a day before they get that chance.

I retain the opinion that we don't know what happens when the vampire dies.

Yeah, that's why I asked that question, since that particular case is left Uncovered by RAW. (Rules are not clear).

My Warblade was dominated by a vampire spawn a few years back, and the DM ruled that I was free when the Paladin destroyed the spawn with a good turning roll.

DM ruling seems be required since the RAW aren't that clear regarding "when the vampire dies, then what?" For my money HICC did a decent job of explaining how, based on what rules there are, the effect persists at the least until the next chance to save ... and most likely longer in the case of a low will save high level character like Belkar.
(I'd expect Haley to snap out of it rather quickly)

I again will opine that the based on Belkar's behavior on the Mechane when dominated, the OoTS version has a shorter duration, or an accelerated chance to be broken.

[TRH]

I again will opine that the based on Belkar's behavior on the Mechane when dominated, the OoTS version has a shorter duration, or an accelerated chance to be broken.

I may have missed you talking about this before, but my interpretation is that in that case, Jerkon would release control as soon as Belkar jumped, so as not to make it obvious that Belkar kept jumping against his will. That's a very not-Durkon thing to do, so best to avoid that risk.

[Rrmcklin]

I dunno....the IFCC has interceded to ensure Roy destroyed Girard's Gate, Hel's plan to get the world destroyed would destroy Kraagor's Gate along with the world, and Hel's intent to displace the leadership of the Northern Pantheon in the next world would certainly tip the cosmic balance between Good and Evil.

Evil is not one big happy family. They don't just want the balance tilted to the side of evil so they'll be happy with an Evil god with more power, they want more power for the fiendish races, and the destruction of the gods of Good. Hel's plan helps them with none of that.

They have stated that they have specific plans (that we don't know) for the Gate. For that to turn out to be helping Hel with her plans would be incredibly anti-climactic. It also wouldn't even make sense because the Order is only involved with all of this by pure chance of Durkon getting turned into a vampire.

[brian 333]

But we already have precedent for what happens when the controlling vampire is destroyed. That's how Durkula came to be.

Even if a character is not freed from domination by the destruction of the dominating vampire, the controlling impulses stop coming. This effectively means the character is no longer Dominated.

[Jasdoif]

They don't just want the balance tilted to the side of evil so they'll be happy with an Evil god with more power, they want more power for the fiendish races, and the destruction of the gods of Good. Hel's plan helps them with none of that.

You really don't see how a lot of Good/Neutral gods having a lot less power relative to the Evil gods in the next world could work to the advantage of the fiendish races or the destruction of the gods of Good?

[Rrmcklin]

You really don't see how a lot of Good/Neutral gods having a lot less power relative to the Evil gods in the next world could work to the advantage of the fiendish races or the destruction of the gods of Good?

Not on the scale we know they're working towards, no. They have very big plans, and "Make Hel Queen of the Northern Pantheon" would frankly be incredibly anticlimactic and small scale for what they want.

And, again, they would have no reason to even expect the Order to get involved with this, because their involvement is predicated on something that no one could have reasonably predicted would happen.

[TRH]

You really don't see how a lot of Good/Neutral gods having a lot less power relative to the Evil gods in the next world could work to the advantage of the fiendish races or the destruction of the gods of Good?

We don't see how that specifically benefits the Fiends. More importantly, we don't see how they could have foreseen what happened to Durkon. Without that, they would have no reason to factor Hel into their thinking at all.

[Rrmcklin]

Like, I could maybe see them pulling V away from this, but if they do it won't be because they specifically want Hel to succeed, but because it would help their long term plans. And it would likely be an improvisation, because I imagine that rather than super strict guidelines, they have more of a general outline, and improvise as necessary.

[Jasdoif]

Like, I could maybe see them pulling V away from this, but if they do it won't be because they specifically want Hel to succeed, but because it would help their long term plans. And it would likely be an improvisation, because I imagine that rather than super strict guidelines, they have more of a general outline, and improvise as necessary.

Yeah...? Did my "not completely counter" come off as "completely aligned" or something?

[dps]

But we already have precedent for what happens when the controlling vampire is destroyed. That's how Durkula came to be.

Uh, no, Durkula was a thrall, not a dominated person. That he was no longer a thrall when Malack was destroyed has no bearing on the situation here.

Even if a character is not freed from domination by the destruction of the dominating vampire, the controlling impulses stop coming. This effectively means the character is no longer Dominated.

While obviously no new order can be issued, the dominated person would still try to carry out the last order they received, so it kind of depends on what that last order was.

[Thurulian]

So only 4 clerics remaining including Durkula and Exarch plus 2 spawn in view after the others were eliminated by V's fireball. If my count is correct then Undominated the order outnumber the vampires now, so if they break the domination then they will have no problem defeating the vamps and if they are given commands that are against their character they get a will save so i could see Durkula Commanding Belkar to attack Roy and Belkar will get a will save because he no longer considers killing Roy to be a good thing to do.

[TRH]

Yeah...? Did my "not completely counter" come off as "completely aligned" or something?

Well, in addition to what's been said, it's important to remember that of the various evil factions with plans running around, Hel's is the only one that necessarily involves destroying the world. As a result, it runs against any plan that involves either taking advantage of the status quo or manipulating the Gates for power. So Xykon would oppose it, the Vector Legion would oppose it, Redcloak might settle for it, but it seems like he and the Dark One would prefer Plan A, where they seize a Gate. The IFCC's ultimate intentions are unknown, but if, as seems likely, they want a Gate as well, then Hel's plan is highly disruptive to their own.

[Jasdoif]

The IFCC's ultimate intentions are unknown, but if, as seems likely, they want a Gate as well, then Hel's plan is highly disruptive to their own.

The IFCC taking active steps to promote the destruction of Girard's Gate makes me question why "as seems likely" should be assumed.

[TRH]

The IFCC taking active steps to promote the destruction of Girard's Gate makes me question why "as seems likely" should be assumed.

They talk of overthrowing the Gods of Good, and how their Gate plan could easily lead to the slaughter of more Good dragons than were killed by Familicide. And that was all well before Hel was on the board, so it can't plausibly relate to her plans.

As for why they'd allow Girard's Gate to blow, perhaps for the same reason Roy did: they knew they couldn't hold it under the circumstances. We still don't know how they intend to execute the remainder of their plan, but as I said, most of the usual motivations or methods of Evil characters in the story are incompatible with Hel's design. I may be wrong about them wanting a Gate, but it's one reason among several possibilities that make it far more likely than not that they wouldn't want her to win.

[WarKitty]

I think it's probably helpful for non-players to reproduce the rules for Dominate Person from the SRD. N.B., Rich does not have to obey these rules precisely if the story requires something else.



Unless the vampire controlling a person (presumably Durkon^T and Ponchella) uses a move action, they are going to have to give a single telepathic order to the dominated, and then fight. Each order is presumably against the nature of the dominated, so each order ought to give a fresh saving throw (at +2, no less). If Hilgya is ordered to anything that puts Kudzu in danger, for example, she gets a new save. Or ordering Elan or Haley to attack Roy. Belkar ... well, what exactly is Belkar's nature now? We may be about to find out.

Also, did Roy telling Belkar to protect V while they're fighting a powerful undead enemy and Belkar objecting remind you of something? Things haven't change all that much in some ways. This just never goes well for one reason or the other.

Also, I like the idea somebody had that we might be about to find out what goes against Belkar's True Nature. If that's not what happens, I think it makes sense for this to be Minrah's moment to shine (assuming she'll eventually get one). In fact, it seems like it might be both, given that we had a whole strip of Minrah talking to Belkar about his feelings for Durkon.

This is what I'm hoping for!

[D.One]

They talk of overthrowing the Gods of Good, and how their Gate plan could easily lead to the slaughter of more Good dragons than were killed by Familicide. And that was all well before Hel was on the board, so it can't plausibly relate to her plans.

As for why they'd allow Girard's Gate to blow, perhaps for the same reason Roy did: they knew they couldn't hold it under the circumstances. We still don't know how they intend to execute the remainder of their plan, but as I said, most of the usual motivations or methods of Evil characters in the story are incompatible with Hel's design. I may be wrong about them wanting a Gate, but it's one reason among several possibilities that make it far more likely than not that they wouldn't want her to win.

Let's be clear. I still see IFCC as a side of their own, with their own agenda apart from Hel's (but not from Hell's ).

That said, I can see that it's possible, and not that unlikely, that they were allied with Hel. We have to notice that, although Hel only got the means to make her plan happen (aka Durkon*) recently, the plan itself (or the intention to gain the souls of the dwarves due to world destruction) might have existed for a long time, and IFCC might be into it (maybe with some double-crossing agenda in mind).

To sum up, I don't think Hel became on board so recently. She might be trying to get a High Cleric for a long time, and have all that plan for a long time. Notice that she had already established agreements with some demigods. That may have taken time.

[Kurald Galain]

Yikes.

On the positive side, though, I think there's only six vampires left.

I count only five. Dark hair with cap who dodges the fireball, P6. Light hair with cap who dodges Roy's sword, P8 (those two appear to be the ones in the last panel). Ponch from P12, fluffy hair from P15, and Greg.

[Jasdoif]

They talk of overthrowing the Gods of Good, and how their Gate plan could easily lead to the slaughter of more Good dragons than were killed by Familicide. And that was all well before Hel was on the board, so it can't plausibly relate to her plans.

As for why they'd allow Girard's Gate to blow, perhaps for the same reason Roy did: they knew they couldn't hold it under the circumstances. We still don't know how they intend to execute the remainder of their plan, but as I said, most of the usual motivations or methods of Evil characters in the story are incompatible with Hel's design. I may be wrong about them wanting a Gate, but it's one reason among several possibilities that make it far more likely than not that they wouldn't want her to win.

I don't think the Evil characters in the comic are that interchangeable. Further, I don't think it's too big a stretch for Hel and the IFCC to have independently decided destroying the world is in their best interests, and that the IFCC is content with Hel unknowingly doing the work for them while she's achieving her own goals.

Extra further, I don't think we have enough information about the IFCC's short-term/mid-term motivations/goals at this point to rule out wanting to destroy the world or hold a Gate of their own or something else...or for that matter, that their plans couldn't have changed since the last time we saw them; by all indications they didn't even know about the Gates until Sabine told them, so their plans can't be older than that. We'll probably find out more when Vaarsuivus gets pulled down again...particularly if it's done while the Order's winning or losing a battle. (I think a second occurrence is a safe enough assumption here.)

[Elkad]

Even if a character is not freed from domination by the destruction of the dominating vampire, the controlling impulses stop coming. This effectively means the character is no longer Dominated.

Only when they complete whatever their current task is. If it stays up past the controller's death, you'll keep doing whatever.

"Kill Elan" means when he is dead, you are free.
"Kill every living creature in the room other than yourself" would continue to be your goal until they were all dead. Depending if bacteria exist and you are aware of that, you might never complete it.
"Travel by your most efficient means directly back to Tinkertown" might leave Belkar walking until he passed his 1/day will save attempt or arrived.

[Fyraltari]

I count only five. Dark hair with cap who dodges the fireball, P6. Light hair with cap who dodges Roy's sword, P8 (those two appear to be the ones in the last panel). Ponch from P12, fluffy hair from P15, and Greg.

The one that Roy hides from view is pretty clearly bald and has monchrome boots, probably the rightmost vampire on panel 2 .

I don't think the Evil characters in the comic are that interchangeable. Further, I don't think it's too big a stretch for Hel and the IFCC to have independently decided destroying the world is in their best interests, and that the IFCC is content with Hel unknowingly doing the work for them while she's achieving her own goals.

Extra further, I don't think we have enough information about the IFCC's short-term/mid-term motivations/goals at this point to rule out wanting to destroy the world or hold a Gate of their own or something else...or for that matter, that their plans couldn't have changed since the last time we saw them; by all indications they didn't even know about the Gates until Sabine told them, so their plans can't be older than that. We'll probably find out more when Vaarsuivus gets pulled down again...particularly if it's done while the Order's winning or losing a battle. (I think a second occurrence is a safe enough assumption here.)

It is worth noting that they (well Cedrik) had no idea why Blackwing stared at the Rift, but showed no surprise at the mention of the planet within. Whatever it is they learned, it probably affected their plans.

[The_Weirdo]

Not in D&D rules.

I suspect Rich is treating Hilgya's type of reality-rejecting as going with weak-willed, not with strong-willed. She's easy to tempt, easy to manipulate, and lacking self-control. Sure, you can't break through her delusions, but by the same token, try getting Elan to acknowledge that his hand puppet is not in fact a god.

Look, mechanics-wise, her level is at least 13 and her Wisdom score is at least 17. By itself, that's at least +11 to her Will save. The DC for Durkula's gaze should be around 16 or so, unless I'm mistaken.

So rules-wise, it stands to reason that Hilgya rolled 4 or less.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Spoiler: Dominated People

Show

Why isn't Minnah affected?

It looks like the vampire is behind Minrah, and hence not looking at her (or her eyes).

I suppose it would be too much to hope for that Hilgya, as a cleric of Loki, is actually faking those swirly eyes, wouldn't it. Yeah. Thought so.

Those aren't swirly eyes, she's just rolling her eyes so fast that they're starting to bleed internally.
...I think that might be worse than domination.

Each order is presumably against the nature of the dominated, so each order ought to give a fresh saving throw (at +2, no less)...Belkar ... well, what exactly is Belkar's nature now? We may be about to find out.

Last time this kind of thing happened, Belkar was OK with killing his allies while singing showtunes as long as he got to keep their magic items. But he's undergone characterdevelopent in the intervening 740 strips, which seems to have given him more complex emotions and a proto-conscience. So...which party member is Belkar's favorite? (Well, third-favorite if we count Mr. Scruffy and Bloodfeast.)

This is pretty bad. Since Roy just ordered Belkar to protect V, they're right next to each other. Even a single round of Domination could be enough for someone as offensively specialized as Belkar to deal serious damage to someone as squishy as V.

And there's no way attacking V is against Belkar's nature...

Why would any of the vamps have bothered targeting the baby? I mean, I guess you could command him to throw a tantrum or try to bite his mum's arms or spit up all over her or something, but even as a distraction, there are far better options available.

I'll grant that there are better targets, but only because they have weapons and magic. An angry toddler can be surprisingly dangerous.

Spoiler: Predictions

Show

The next strip may have an internal Durkula/Durkon scene. D* will give a telepathic order to Hilgya, D will attempt to interfere.

Didn't Durkon swear not to do stuff like that?

Durkon* says "We'll be better off if I ignore what I know about them and just fight like they were any other high-level party".
He just finished the memory that Durkon Classic gave to him at the speed of thought, which began on Durkon's first day as a cleric.
What did Durkon* learn about the Order of the Stick in that memory, from years before Durkon Classic joined them?

Nothing. He just realized that he couldn't assume they didn't have clerics.

Spoiler: Random

Show

I wonder what level Kudzu is.
He's been with mommy through thick and thin and probably survived a couple encounters by now.
Maybe he's also a low level cleric with spells?

If he is, I can't imagine he's very good at casting them. If nothing else, I double "goo goo" is the verbal component of any cleric spell.
(...Though it sounds like a decent Conjuration debuff.)

Perhaps we're finally learning that high-wisdom and low-intelligence can be just as dangerous as the reverse.

That sounds like the Giant. It seems like one of OotS's themes has always been that no characteristic is inherently superior to another. No arrangement of ability scores is inherently superior, nor is any race or class.
(Whether or not that's true in D&D is a matter for my half-orc fighter and gray elf wizard to argue about, but that's separate from the story Rich is telling.)

Oh, who am I kidding. [Minrah i]s a dwarf, she'd want to die with honor.

If she hurries up about it, she might squeak into Valhalla before the end of the world!

True... but it might force the Directors to pull V back down and out of the fight, blowing their 2nd of 3rd uses, just to keep their third use "on tap". After all, if V dies, V dies and they can't do much more with hir.

I mean, dead souls have their uses. Fewer if you need to return the soul in good condition after half an hour, but I'm sure the fiends could work something out. (If nothing else, they could splice her soul out.)

"Kill every living creature in the room other than yourself" would continue to be your goal until they were all dead. Depending if bacteria exist and you are aware of that, you might never complete it.

That gives me an amusing mental image of a dominated barbarian dropping his blood-stained axe and breaking out the hand sanitizer.

[KorvinStarmast]

I may have missed you talking about this before, but my interpretation is that in that case, Jerkon would release control as soon as Belkar jumped, so as not to make it obvious that Belkar kept jumping against his will. That's a very not-Durkon thing to do, so best to avoid that risk.

A fair estimate. *tips cap*

[Cuilean]

The Vampire Currently Inhabiting Durkon's Corpse made one flaw in his agreement... he said "...and I let your new little family live for another few hours."

Hilgya counts.

[Elenna]

More to the point, an item-cast first-level spell is easier, not harder, to dispel than a Hilgya-cast first-level spell.

I wonder how many people will post "why isn't Belkar immune to this? His ring*!" before the next strip is up.

*It's not even a ring.

I've been wondering how many people will post "wtf the baby made the save?" before the next strip, when the vampires have absolutely no reason to waste a Dominate attempt on the baby in the first place.

If Durkon for some reason has been feeding him carefully edited memories (or, actually, unedited memories would do), it is very possible that Durkula might think "Hilgya, protect me from the OOTS gang!" is an order that would not go against her desires.

That would be funny.

I suspect literally any order from Greg would be against Hilgya's nature, since she thinks he's basically still Durkon. But that would be especially funny, yes.

That gives me an amusing mental image of a dominated barbarian dropping his blood-stained axe and breaking out the hand sanitizer.

*giggles*

[Seward]

The "Roy has a powerful will and Elan has the willpower of a wilting leek" narrative the story's gone with for a long time only works ignoring D&D mechanics, or stretching way beyond what can be justified to make it not ignore them.

My take on this is that the Bard vs Fighter will save progression and the native Wisdom of Elan vs Roy is a wash. All other things being equal, their saves will be equal.

It's likely Roy has taken Iron Will at some point, giving a +2. The rest is probably that Roy has kept up with upgrading a cloak of protection, and Elan/Haley and until recently Belkar with his +3 vest have not and are probably getting a +0 bonus for that, vs +4-5 for Roy (IIRC, most 15th level characters have +5 resistance cloaks or vests. We can't be sure about this as we haven't seen most routine magic items in this story that are pretty routine, only weapons and a few utility items like the bag of tricks get any airtime. Belkar does comment in Azure City though that he tosses +1 rings of protection in the trash, which would indicate that they're getting some boring but routinely useful items at times).

There are some feats and items that allow rerolls a limited number of times/day, and those can have a huge impact on avoiding failing a critical save.

Note that Roy took two saves to throw off the domination in his first fight vs Greg. He's probably only got about a 50% chance to save, but two die rolls bump the chance of making one of them to 75% (actually a bit higher with the +2 bonus for "thing I won't do normally").

One thing I have noticed in this series is that almost nobody makes saves. Even Haley fails to evade the relatively low DC of sorcerer fireballs in the earlier strips, and anything that isn't against a strong save almost always fails. Spells are far more reliable than they usually are in a normal game. The main exception was the "duel of divine casters" which realisticaly showed that all those fort/will saves/suck-die spells are usually a wasted action on an enemy cleric.

That said, sometimes a powerful critter fails a key save (see the giant Demon turned to stone by prismatic spray, something that probably required it rolling a 1). Still it would be nice to see Belkar or Elan make a will save occasionally, just as Roy once succeeded on a bluff check vs Haley by rolling a nat 20 (and her presumably rolling low on her Sense Motive d20)