Erfworld 76, page 70

[Girl Wonder]

Even if she cries in the next strip?

Women's tears don't quite melt my heart the way they do for you guys... I think it's a biological thing (show me a man brought to tears by emotion and it rends my heart). BUT... if she MEANS them, if she shows any real emotion aside from anger? Then she becomes a bit more interesting as a character to me (rather than just interesting as a plot force).

It'll take a lot of convincing from me that they'd be real, and moreover, that Wanda wasn't just sad that she's lost a treasured plaything and the joy toying with it brought her. Basically, I want to see Wanda showing some concern for something that isn't, ultimately, Wanda. And if she truly feels ANYthing for Jillian, she can start convincing me by showing some honest remorse for horribly abusing a fellow human being, much less someone she (hypothetically) purportedly cared about.

I'm open to changing my mind, but Wanda's got to do a lot of changing, first.

[teratorn]

Women's tears don't quite melt my heart the way they do for you guys... I think it's a biological thing (show me a man brought to tears by emotion and it rends my heart).

Well, Ansom is likely to cry a river if she dies. Better prepare your heart for it.

[ag30476]

Women's tears don't quite melt my heart the way they do for you guys... I think it's a biological thing (show me a man brought to tears by emotion and it rends my heart). BUT... if she MEANS them, if she shows any real emotion aside from anger? Then she becomes a bit more interesting as a character to me (rather than just interesting as a plot force).

It'll take a lot of convincing from me that they'd be real, and moreover, that Wanda wasn't just sad that she's lost a treasured plaything and the joy toying with it brought her. Basically, I want to see Wanda showing some concern for something that isn't, ultimately, Wanda. And if she truly feels ANYthing for Jillian, she can start convincing me by showing some honest remorse for horribly abusing a fellow human being, much less someone she (hypothetically) purportedly cared about.

I'm open to changing my mind, but Wanda's got to do a lot of changing, first.

Yeah but see I haven't seen any characters grow or change, not even Jillian. It's only been 2 Erf-days anyway.

We've seen characters revealed which is different.

Ansom was first seen by many as a someone to hate but it has been revealed that he has some good qualities.

Jillian was seen as the spunky barbarian princess...no wait she's being manipulated by Wanda that explains what happened before...no wait she's in love with Ansom and hates Stanley and that explains why the manipulation was subtle...

Even this last flip of Jillian's is not character growth...there is no clear explanation for it so we can only surmise why it happened. Moreover, it is in keeping with her previous personality. Before she kept things from Ansom and herself. And she still is. She implies to Ansom in her thinkagram that she is not a betrayer and that she will prove it. But her betrayal already happened. She gave Ansom's plan away and Parson used it to advantage. She had spell cast on her and was manipulated by Wanda and she liked it. Who is she trying to convince that she is not a betrayer? Herself.

She says that she is a barbarian, free to choose as she likes. But she could not choose to be on Ansom's and Wanda's side at the same time. That double bind left her with the complete opposite of freedom. She knows herself she is not completely free to choose. That there are consequences to choices. Who is she trying to convince that she is totally free? Herself.

And then she says that she is in the fight because she hates Stanley and loves Ansom. OK she hates Stanley. That does not mean, she has to act on it. She might have a duty with that title, but she avoids using the word. On the other hand, love can compel you to act. Does not her love for Ansom make her want to protect him? Is this not another form of bond?

And then she implies that Ansom is in it because Ansom hates Stanley and Ansom loves Ansom, himself. May the Titans help her? Yet she loves this guy? Yes, indeed. Who is she trying to convince of her motives? Herself it seems to me.

The whole speech is not a sign of growth of the character. It's the exact same dynamic she used when we first encountered her joining up with Ansom at the end of the turn. Then she rebuffed Ansom and went on her way. Now she does the same thing. She's justifying her actions like she did before done but there is more than meets the eye here and that's why we like the character...unconsciously.

It's interesting the way that the author's are manipulating us to feel for Jillian. We, I mean most readers, want to empathize with her I think more than with any character. And that's how they get us.

[KillerCardinal]

She seems a lot like Ned Stark from A Song of Ice and Fire.

Gah! You really should spoiler that. I'm still getting people to read ASoIaF, and that is one of the biggies in the first book.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Something that just popped into my head...

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Jillian had gwiffin four manuever under Leroy Jenkins' dwagon, in case she didn't stick the landing. She did, Leroy and his red dwagon are now recroaked...

So far, so good. But now Parson has ordered a swarm attack against Jillian. But what if Jillian isn't killed in the attack, but is just knocked off of the dwagon, and she misses her gwiffin on the way down? Where will she land?

She lands in the lake.

Think about it. In RL, impacting the water from that height would be lethal, but Erfworld/Hollywood would probably take her out until the end of the turn, where she would next be seen crawling ashore on some sandy beach.

Jillian is out of the fight, Parson salvages some, but not all, of his dwagons, and the story continues on.

It's not doom and gloom, and it's not an easy win for either side.

[VariaVespasa]

Hi Everybody -

I've been lurking on the boards for some time and would like to make a few observations about the way things are going so far, and where they are gonna go.

Two things are clear to me. At some point Parson is going to be a player, not a warlord. He's going to be making policy decisions, not remain the Tool's tool. How's he gonna get there? My pet theory is that Stanley will get the shiv from Wanda, who will take over his position and try to recruit Parson - who agrees so long as the whole "you can terminate me with a word" option is no longer available.

But who knows? The authors have fooled me several times already, which is really quite awesome. Still, I feel strongly about this, in large part because...

The second thing I know is that at some point Parson will present his opponents with a no-win scenario. How do I know that? Because that's what he had planned for his buds back on Earth.

What do y'all think of that?

Well he IS a perfect warlord. While Stanley can disband him with a word, I dont think there's anything in the spell that makes Parson loyal to Stanley. If I was Parson I know I'd be interested in the spell that brought me here, how it works, and its limitations. What if Parsons perfect warlord abilities are actually working on freeing himself/usurping Stanley rather than winning the seige? After all, if Stanley dies or is captured that would also end the alliance assault and save GK... Stanley became king by regicide of a sort- what keeps Parson from using his vast size advantage to just suddenly grab Stanleys face (thus gagging him and preventing him from saying the disbanding word) and then just twist his little head off, grab the arkenhammer and proclaim himself king? Does Stanley actually NEED a word to disband him?

Its a thought.

[SteveMB]

Well he IS a perfect warlord. While Stanley can disband him with a word, I dont think there's anything in the spell that makes Parson loyal to Stanley. If I was Parson I know I'd be interested in the spell that brought me here, how it works, and its limitations. What if Parsons perfect warlord abilities are actually working on freeing himself/usurping Stanley rather than winning the seige? After all, if Stanley dies or is captured that would also end the alliance assault and save GK... Stanley became king by regicide of a sort- what keeps Parson from using his vast size advantage to just suddenly grab Stanleys face (thus gagging him and preventing him from saying the disbanding word) and then just twist his little head off, grab the arkenhammer and proclaim himself king? Does Stanley actually NEED a word to disband him?

Its a thought.

Stanley claims he can end Parson's existence with "a thought", so gagging him (however tempting that might be in general) wouldn't protect Parson (if Stanley's statement is, in fact, true).

As for the Arkenhammer, it's attuned to Stanley, and as far as anyone knows won't work for anyone else. Among other things, that would presumably cause the dwagons to revert to wildness, as likely to attack Stanley's forces as Ansom's.

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Obviously, that's a moot point if the dwagons are all croaked....

[Lamech]

I like the rest of your analysis, but Ansom present would prevent an Archon retreat (he is their employer afterall) unless Ansom was also disabled. If Ansom was there, Vinnie would also be there, and the combined forces they represent should tilt towards an alliance victory. (Even if Ansom were permitted to move, it's possible it could take two rounds to do so. By that point, Jillian might be showing just how far she can float and the Archons could be in rescue and retreat mode by that point.)

Your right if Ansom was present the Archons would keep fighting or start fighting again if they had pulled Jillian out. Ansom and Vinny and the Archons, and possibly the bats would be able to wipe out the A-dwagons. Of course, if the peeps were gone Ansom wouldn't be able to switch over to one. I don't think he has enough move to hit the dwagons and come back to the elves. Then Ansom would then be vunerable to the 24 B-dwagons. Those dwagons could then croak him probably Jillian, and Vinny. They could also take the Arkenpliers if Ansom doesn't think he can trust the Archons with it. Although it would probably make more sense to risk Charlie taking the Arkenpliers than giving them to Stanley.

[Gez]

But I still hate her

<Stanley> Well, she hates you too. </Stanley>

[Ivy]

I don't have time to read all the posts but Jillian could now break off her engagement with stanleys troops because she says "some dwagons" not these dwagons or something like that

[Wender]

She says that she is a barbarian, free to choose as she likes. But she could not choose to be on Ansom's and Wanda's side at the same time. That double bind left her with the complete opposite of freedom. She knows herself she is not completely free to choose. That there are consequences to choices. Who is she trying to convince that she is totally free? Herself.

Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose. If all your choices have terrible consequences then it doesn't really matter which one you choose, and you have total freedom of choice. It's the general case of Sizemore's Exception.

There are still two ways for GK to pull this one out without losing everything in the hex. Parson's plan is good, but its success hinges on two truths about Jillian: First, that free or not she's still reckless and... reluctant... to plan ahead--what if a dwagon roasts the gwiffon she's counting on? or, what if she misses? Second, just as Ansom thinks he's still up against Stanley, Jillian still thinks she's up against Wanda. She might assume that the dwagons coming for her are making another attempt to capture her. If she's heavily wounded, the Archons will grab her and pull back. Their orders are to escort and protect her.

As for Wanda, while I agree that her need to control things has booped things up, it would be so stupid to demote or otherwise remove her from command that I can almost see Stanley doing it. Parson has already taken an important first step away from this by immediately ordering action rather than turning his attention to Wanda. That puts the focus back on the board. It's certainly not a foolproof plan ("no, don't croak her! capture her!") but few are.

(As an aside, would it even make any sense for the dwagons to attempt a capture while on defense? Even if they succeed, they're severely weakened, up against powerful opponents (the Archons, who will of course go on a killing spree to get Jillian back), and unable to move out of the hex until Ansom's turn is over. So I'm not really seeing that as an option.)

[Aerysil]

I didn't know peep mounts could do an engulf head attack.... nifty.

[FoolishOwl]

While it's possible that one of the main characters will be eliminated here, I doubt that any of them will. The most obvious candidate for death is Jillian, and there have been a lot of hints about her background that suggest there's still much more character development to be done. Wanda's too valuable to Stanley to eliminate -- even he's not that stupid. She's a croakamancer for an army that consists almost entirely of uncroaked units.

I should clarify what I meant about Parson disassociating himself from Wanda. At this point, Parson's carried out two actions: setting a trap to capture Ansom, which failed (though no one seemed to really expect it to succeed); and this much more elaborate, risky plan in which Parson threatened Ansom's siege units, and apparently left his dragons vulnerable, to draw out Ansom. (Sort of like threatening a rook with a queen, as a ploy to make the opposing king vulnerable). Stanley's had no confidence in Parson, and so far, Parson has had one minor failure and is apparently in the process of a major failure that will lead to the loss of Stanley's most valuable units in a desperately depleted force. Stanley had already considered sending Parson to the frontlines to get rid of him -- at this point, Stanley must be thinking of disbanding him. Parson -- as far as anyone knows -- is unable to break free of Stanley, and Parson believes his life is at stake.

Assuming Parson doesn't manage to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat, he's going to have to come up with some means to avoid immediate disbandment by Stanley. The only way I can see for him to escape a charge of incompetence is to pin the blame on Wanda -- who has let him down every time so far, and has failed the trust he placed in her. If, on the other hand, Parson does manage to save the situation somehow, then perhaps he can extend a hand to Wanda.

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One possibility that crossed my mind, that I haven't seen mentioned: what if Part One ends with the death or disbandment or return to Earth of Parson? Everyone seems to assume that Parson's the main character. But Wanda, not Parson, is the first major character introduced, and several others are introduced as well before he appears. It's a convention, when setting a story in an alien setting, to have a character with whom the audience can identify, who is a stranger to that world and who will ask all the questions that call for exposition. Parson's been that character. But maybe he's done his job. Erfworld's been introduced. Parson's not even on the list of characters.

[teratorn]

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Erfworld's been introduced. Parson's not even on the list of characters.

Parson Gotti is an anagram for protagonist.

[Arkenputtyknife]

Well, some of us (admittedly a seeming minority) don't like her at all.

It depends on what is meant by “like”; there's a huge difference between liking someone as a person and liking them as a character.

Wanda's much like Belkar. I like both of them as characters, but if they were in my circle of friends, I'd emigrate.

Edit:

Parson Gotti is an anagram for protagonist.

Ah—thanks. Anagrams are among my many blind spots (I'm more comfortable with spuns and poonerisms). Kind of knocks a lot of speculation on the head, doesn't it?

[itliaf]

Haha, build of the last three frames of this comic is just brilliant.

I feel a little dirty at how happy a couple of video game references made me. As if Ansom's Evel Knievel gear was a reference more worthy of laughter just because it's older.

[FoolishOwl]

Parson Gotti is an anagram for protagonist.

That's a very convincing point.

And that's why it's a good idea to have a bard in your party.

[SteveMB]

First he needs to get his win scenario in this battle. But it's hard to tell. We were all discussing game rules and such at the beggining of this battle, but things are more focused now in the characters themselves. Erfworld is mostly a story, but I forgot that when Parson started moving the dwagons.

Having a key plot point tied to tactical neepery makes the basic premise of the Erfworld setting meaningful rather than merely cosmetic.

It'll take a lot of convincing from me that they'd be real, and moreover, that Wanda wasn't just sad that she's lost a treasured plaything and the joy toying with it brought her. Basically, I want to see Wanda showing some concern for something that isn't, ultimately, Wanda. And if she truly feels ANYthing for Jillian, she can start convincing me by showing some honest remorse for horribly abusing a fellow human being, much less someone she (hypothetically) purportedly cared about.

Hmmm... earlier, it was practically impossible to tell, since we only see character actions*, and the action of "acting sympathetic toward Jillian because she actually is" looks very much like the action of "acting sympathetic toward Jillian because it's time to show the 'good cop/caretaker' face". Now, anongst her colleagues in the situation room, she has no (as far as I can see) cynical motive to feign sympathy, which would make any attempt to countermand or undermine Parson's order most interesting. (OTOH, it could still mean only that she has plans of her own that require Jillian alive.)

Another complication is that acting a certain way tends to build habituation (e.g. acting sympathetic can lead to actually being sympathetic). It's possible that Wanda was careful to avoid such an entanglement. Perhaps she was every bit as thoroughly on guard against this effect as she was against the risk that her suggestion spell might fail....

*I vaguely recall Rob saying that he dislikes thought balloons, but I'm not sure if it was here, in a PartiallyClips commentary, or in person at a con panel (or just an outright misremembering).

[Arkenputtyknife]

*I vaguely recall Rob saying that he dislike thought balloons, but I'm not sure if it was here, in a PartiallyClips commentary, or in person at a con panel (or just an outright misremembering).

“And thought balloons are such a massive pain in the ass that I will actively avoid writing strips containing characters' thoughts.”

[Girl Wonder]

<Stanley> Well, she hates you too. </Stanley>

Heeheehee... that made me laugh out loud. At least Stanley doesn't hate me ;) He and Ansom are two of my favorite characters, for entirely different reasons, of course.

[SteveMB]

“And thought balloons are such a massive pain in the ass that I will actively avoid writing strips containing characters' thoughts.”

Ah, that's it. Thanks.

[Vreejack]

--what if a dwagon roasts the gwiffon she's counting on? or, what if she misses?

Then she will fall in the water. Barbarians can swim. It's part of their class description. Swim: yes, read: no. :-)

Second, just as Ansom thinks he's still up against Stanley, Jillian still thinks she's up against Wanda. She might assume that the dwagons coming for her are making another attempt to capture her. If she's heavily wounded, the Archons will grab her and pull back. Their orders are to escort and protect her.

They might not be able to if she is under water. They might think she had been croaked. If so, they would probably leave. Or would they fight to the death? :-)

As for Wanda, while I agree that her need to control things has booped things up, it would be so stupid to demote or otherwise remove her from command that I can almost see Stanley doing it. Parson has already taken an important first step away from this by immediately ordering action rather than turning his attention to Wanda. That puts the focus back on the board. It's certainly not a foolproof plan ("no, don't croak her! capture her!") but few are.

(As an aside, would it even make any sense for the dwagons to attempt a capture while on defense? Even if they succeed, they're severely weakened, up against powerful opponents (the Archons, who will of course go on a killing spree to get Jillian back), and unable to move out of the hex until Ansom's turn is over. So I'm not really seeing that as an option.)

It makes sense to me that capture would be possible, but actually ordering a capture in this case would be idiotic. While it would be very nice to re-capture Jillian right now, (even without knowing all that we do) Parson's position will only deteriorate from here on out if he does not croak her as fast as he can. Every swing she makes will croak a dwagon, and prolly a warlord as well. She must be removed from combat as quickly as possible, with the method that is most likely to work. Even then, the odds will still be against Parson but they will get a little easier.

[Wender]

They might not be able to if she is under water. They might think she had been croaked. If so, they would probably leave. Or would they fight to the death? :-)

I don't see how they'd fight to the death if they had any choice. They're just contractors. :-) Move allowing, I'd see them withdrawing to Ansom's location and going back in with reinforcements if he ordered it--and if the dwagons kill Jillian, he will order it. I'm not 100% sure of this, but I think that Ansom, Vinnie and the Archons, at least, have the move to regroup and come back. At that point, Stanley can kiss the rest of his A dwagons goodbye no matter what kind of tactical brilliance Parson attempts.

I'm not sold on Jillian dying just because nearly every single trope points to her imminent and tragic demise, and our gracious hosts have been pretty savvy about subverting tropes by remaining true to the characters and the story. Besides, I like this Jillian a lot more and I want to see more of her daredevil heroics in battle.

[fractal]

I don't see how they'd fight to the death if they had any choice. They're just contractors. :-)

I doubt the Archons' lives are on the line in any case. If we assume that Charlie only has 3 of them (reasonable, given the reference), then I don't think he would risk them so cavalierly, even if they can eventually be replaced.

I imagine that if an Archon is close to being croaked, she automatically teleports back to Charlie (or perhaps just resurrects back at his base after falling in combat). Of course, such an event would certainly end the contract for which she had been hired out.

Sounds good for business in the long run. Charlie gets money, Archons gain experience, no units are lost.

[Arkenputtyknife]

I wish to register a complaint. Where's the fan service we were promised?

[Lamech]

I doubt the Archons' lives are on the line in any case. If we assume that Charlie only has 3 of them (reasonable, given the reference), then I don't think he would risk them so cavalierly, even if they can eventually be replaced.

Also if Charlie only has three Archons, and doesn't have a near fool proof way of saving them, I doubt they would use anything less than the best attacks ever. If the Archons were at risk it wouldn't matter how much they were paid, they would fight at there full potential.

[rosebud]

Well, some of us (admittedly a seeming minority) don't like her at all. (...) I think what makes Wanda popular to most is not what is known about her, but what is unknown.

Oh, come on! She still sleeps with her, um, stuffed animals. She never had the chance to have a normal childhood. She's there to listen and provide helpful advice. She helps her friends out of binds. She looks after the career growth of those who work under her. She is always ready to pitch in at work. She is concerned about the stress her colleagues are facing. And she has the self-confidence to have such an interesting fashion sense.

Despite all the emotional pain she suffers, she's just always there for people. Couldn't you cut the poor woman a little bit of slack?

[Krelon]

Oh, come on! She still sleeps with her, um, stuffed animals. She never had the chance to have a normal childhood. She's there to listen and provide helpful advice. She helps her friends out of binds. She looks after the career growth of those who work under her. She is always ready to pitch in at work. She is concerned about the stress her colleagues are facing. And she has the self-confidence to have such an interesting fashion sense.

Despite all the emotional pain she suffers, she's just always there for people. Couldn't you cut the poor woman a little bit of slack?

As always, the truth lies in the eye of the beholder
rosebud you get a 9.9 of 10 rating from me

[ralphmerridew]

Had Jillian not been released, (1) Ansom would have not hired the Archons, (2) the wounded dwagon stack would have been safe, and (3) Ansom would be more booped.

Remember the Evil Overlord. Stupid Overlords let the hero escape so as to ruin their plans. The Evil Overlord takes care of the pesky hero.

Had Jillian not been released, Ansom wouldn't have split his flying troops off in the first case, and Parson wouldn't have been able to make his big attack.

[Midgititp]

Rosebud: That was hilarious.

Wanda is manipulative, she does what she has to in order to get what she wants. We all may look on her with some disgust/disdain, but in reality we all do the same thing to one degree or another (hopefully less than her of course!). So I tend to see her 'caring' about Parson as something manipulative as well, although there might be some part of her that truly does.

Wanda never cared about Jillian, in my opinion, it was totally a one-way relationship, with Jillian 'in love' with Wanda.

Speaking of Jillian... well... it seems like the spell is broken and Jillian has decided. Unless, maybe the spell is still working and that is why Jillian seems to be acting a little recklessly in combat? I dunno, I've been wrong about her too much before.

I am surprised that Parson would order them to swarm the warlord himself. It makes tactical sense but that's something I'd expect to see Stanley order.