Grrl Power IV: Constantly Expanded Universe

[halfeye]

Random thought:
What if her top speed is actually determined by the speed of sound? Her orb limits her acceleration to "accelerating to four times the speed of sound of the medium she is in". OR, maybe it's a sound-wave-based propulsion.

Which means she can't accelerate much, if all, in space. Thanks to momentum, she'd continue going the same speed as when she left the atmosphere.

It would fit with what's happened currently in the comic.

The speed of sound is mainly governed by temperature. The temperature in space near the Earth is rather high.

[Rogar Demonblud]

At least compared to the rest of space, where it's a few microkelvins above absolute zero.

[halfeye]

At least compared to the rest of space, where it's a few microkelvins above absolute zero.

Here's the atmosphere:

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By Cmglee - Own work, CC BY-SA 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/inde...curid=17311330

The plasma between galaxies accounts for about half of the baryonic (ordinary) matter in the universe; it has a number density of less than one hydrogen atom per cubic metre and a temperature of millions of kelvins;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_space

I'm pretty sure it's the speed of the molecules/atoms that does that, their density probably means it feels pretty cold. The temperature near Earth meanwhile I believe is also high (thousands of K?), mostly due to the sun, but I'm not finding a reference at the moment.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Thousands of kelvins is impossible. The boiling point of water is 373.15K. Heck, the surface of the Sun is 5778K.

Heck, the article you link specifies a temperature of 2.7K at the edge of the atmosphere. Less than three degrees above absolute zero.

[AvatarVecna]

Something tells me that when Maxima did her subtle speed test of Sydney way back when, she wasn't commenting on how she noticed that at different temperatures/air pressure levels, Sydney's speed stayed close to a particular multiple of the speed of sound relative to what the speed of sound was at her current location...she was thinking "speed of sound in most circumstances is around X, we're going about 4X and Sydney doesn't seem capable of going faster, so that's probably something like her top speed?"

[John Campbell]

The temperature of space is kind of an iffy concept, because temperature is a property of matter, and there's not a whole lot of matter around in space to have a temperature. Individual particles may have very high temperatures, but it doesn't make much difference, because their mass and density are so low that the total amount of actual heat energy they carry is negligible.

Basically all heat transfer in space happens through radiation, and that largely means sunlight. Either you're in the sun and you're getting blasted by its full intensity, unfiltered by atmosphere, or you're in shadow and you're getting basically nothing. And in either case, the only heat you're losing is through blackbody radiation, which means that you can easily bake to death in the sun in an environment only a few Kelvin above absolute zero. And even in shadow, you won't freeze nearly as quickly as "high today: 3 Kelvin" might make you think. Space is the ultimate insulated thermos bottle.

[tomandtish]

Probably the first thing to point out is that since the flight orb can magically accelerate Sydney up to Mach 4 and keep her there despite gravity and air resistance, then in space where neither of those things is holding you back it should probably be able to apply constant acceleration and her velocity should be able to rise without limit.

Well, constant acceleration in space is caused by thrust in some form. This bodes the question: How does the orb work?

If it's not moving via thrust, then it's possible that Mach 4 is a max speed (with the current activated slots) even in space. Is it completely unreasonable to assume that the orb says "I'm gonna move her at Mach 4"?

Now, as has been assumed in comic and probably agreed on by most of us, there are spaceflight options. But she either hasn;t figured them out or hasn't activated the appropriate slots.

[Onyavar]

If it's not moving via thrust, then it's possible that Mach 4 is a max speed (with the current activated slots) even in space. Is it completely unreasonable to assume that the orb says "I'm gonna move her at Mach 4"?

Movement is relative. On top of a planet that is less obvious, as you move against 'forces' like friction, air and gravity. On top of a planet, we thus can treat movement as absolute. You can stop moving by staying in place. And mach 4 is well-defined there.

Once in space, you realize that you can't stop moving. To 'stay in place ' relative towards another object, you need complex calculations and actual movement and adjustment. As the Alari homeworld probably rotates around a sun (at much higher speed than mach 4), and the sun orbits the galactic center, the orb itself would need to be aware of its location and then regulate its movement accordingly to simulate a speed of mach 4 relative to the surroundings.

Or, you know, the orb follows physical laws.

[John Campbell]

Well, constant acceleration in space is caused by thrust in some form. This bodes the question: How does the orb work?

If it's not moving via thrust, then it's possible that Mach 4 is a max speed (with the current activated slots) even in space. Is it completely unreasonable to assume that the orb says "I'm gonna move her at Mach 4"?

Yes, that's completely unreasonable. See my earlier post.

The basic problem is that speed is not an absolute thing. It always has to be measured relative to something else, and so an object's speed is never a single value, but an endless array of possibilities spread over a vast range, depending on what you're measuring relative to.

It's not a question of how the orb works and by what mechanism it moves Sydney. It's that the phrase "Sydney's speed" is meaningless noise.

It'd be like saying that Sydney has a maximum distance of four feet. It obviously requires answers to some more questions, starting with, "Four feet from what?" And then no matter what the answer to that question is, it's obviously false, because there's nothing that Sydney hasn't, at some point, gotten more than four feet from.

Similarly, "Mach 4 relative to what?" And no matter what the answer to that question is, it's obviously false, because Sydney has, at some point, moved faster than that relative to it. (Note that she's currently above an alien planet in a different star system than she started in, so she's almost certainly now moving at a couple hundred kilometers per second, far more than Mach 4, relative to Earth.)

And pretending that speed is an absolute thing runs you into situations that are either nonsensical or Do Not Work As Expected surprisingly quickly.

Say Sydney's on board the Concorde, flying across the Atlantic at Mach 1. Now say she needs to get to the bathroom at the back, and then back to her seat, as quickly as possible. So she grabs the flight orb. How fast can she get down that aisle? Mach 4 both directions, relative to the Concorde? Or is her flight orb limited relative to Earth, so she can fly to the back of the Concorde at Mach 5, relative to the Concorde, but can only get back up to the front at Mach 3?

And if it's relative to the Earth, what part of Earth is it relative to? The surface? The center? The surrounding atmosphere? Can she fly faster (in ground-speed terms) if she flies counter to the direction of rotation? If it's relative to the surrounding atmosphere, how does that limit apply in space where there isn't any surrounding atmosphere? Or the only surrounding atmosphere is what she's carrying with her inside her shield, which she's basically stationary relative to?

What if she's on a big generation ship, headed for Alpha Centauri at half the speed of light? Can she fly around inside the ship at Mach 4 relative to the ship? Or does she get pancaked into the aft bulkhead the moment she grabs her flight orb because she's broken its arbitrary speed limit relative to Earth and it has to drag her to a stop? What happens if she flies out the airlock?

If she can maintain her speed relative to the ship even after leaving its confines, how is that different than if there never was a ship to begin with?

[Ibrinar]

The orb could just dynamically pick nearby planet or spaceships or suns as reference points. It makes no sense to create an orb that works that way but it could. (The only way that would make sense though is if the orb worked by somehow using an massive object as an anker and moving you around relative to it. Or something weird like that.)

[Dragonus45]

Or the orb has a top speed that in earth atmosphere just happens to is Mach 4 but is constant no matter where you are at.

[Ibrinar]

Who are you replying to? If to me I am talking about speed being determined by your reference frame that has nothing to do with the speed of sound.

[Forum Explorer]

Alternatively she can move at a max speed of 4939.2 KM/H. Which is Mach 4 on Earth. That might not be Mach 4 elsewhere, but Sydney's orb doesn't adjust it's speed to always be 4 times faster then the current location's speed of sound. Because that sounds really silly when you word it like that.

[Sean Mirrsen]

I think the physicists in this thread are overthinking this.

Take the existing velocity of the owner. It is dictated by all the other factors like gravity, motion of planets/stars, etc. Now have the "flight state" append an extra velocity to that. Without modifying the owner's physical variables, the orb itself is constantly adjusting the owner's position to emulate the apparent change in velocity. When the flight state is dropped, the artificial change in velocity is dropped and the owner continues on their normal physical interactions.

It's easy enough to append some safety functions to that. Make the flight state bring the owner's actual velocity to match a normalized vector of the local force of gravity, to facilitate arresting dangerous falls and impending impacts (it might be difficult to enact in theory, but in practice we know that the Orbs take a lot of data from their 'host' without conscious effort - it could be as simple as thinking "stop me relative to these things"). Make it suspend the biological reactions that'd normally impede flight, like vertigo. Small things like that, totally plausible.

It'd essentially make the Flyball act as a sub-light "flicker warp" system, adjusting the physical position of the owner in space without modifying their velocity, thus being able to facilitate "faster than light travel" without technically breaking lightspeed.

Which would also mean that FTL would be an eventual function of the Flyball as well.

[Ibrinar]

Hmm yeah I guess that works well enough as a explanation even if it is a weird design physically.

Alternatively she can move at a max speed of 4939.2 KM/H. Which is Mach 4 on Earth. That might not be Mach 4 elsewhere, but Sydney's orb doesn't adjust it's speed to always be 4 times faster then the current location's speed of sound. Because that sounds really silly when you word it like that.

Again if you are replying to me I wasn't talking about the speed of sound. 4939.2KM/h is still relative to the reference frame. As in if you are in a train you are stationary in relation to the train, move at a decent speed in relation to the ground and move rather fast in relation to the sun.

[Forum Explorer]

Again if you are replying to me I wasn't talking about the speed of sound. 4939.2KM/h is still relative to the reference frame. As in if you are in a train you are stationary in relation to the train, move at a decent speed in relation to the ground and move rather fast in relation to the sun.

It's a general reply to those who are suggesting that being somewhere where the Speed of Sound is a different number would change Syndey's speed to 4 times that number. Nothing to do with you at all.

[Rogar Demonblud]

If I may interrupt the physics debate...

Sydney has another moment of clarity. And then goes right back to game-think.

[HandofShadows]

Sydney has another moment of clarity. And then goes right back to game-think.

Game-think actually can be very effective in some cases and this might be one of them.

[lord_khaine]

Sydney has another moment of clarity. And then goes right back to game-think.

You are saying it as if its a bad thing. But it is a framework she is familiar with to process unexpected situation.
And it seemed like she mainly used it to take stock of the situatiuo. I cant really blame her for that. It does seem like the smart thing to do.

What i cant see is what she can do to improve her situation. I guess except wait and hope for resque.
She should find a hiding hole to bunker down in. Then hope Max contacts her though her collar.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Given the "grinding" comment, she's planning on finding and fighting things for experience, so she can level up (i.e., gain pips for her orbs).

Considering what the watchdog did, that is not a good plan.

[Keltest]

Given the "grinding" comment, she's planning on finding and fighting things for experience, so she can level up (i.e., gain pips for her orbs).

Considering what the watchdog did, that is not a good plan.

Its a marginally better plan than "fly off into space" was, in as much as it is not automatically guaranteed to result in her death even under the best circumstances.

[Traab]

Given the "grinding" comment, she's planning on finding and fighting things for experience, so she can level up (i.e., gain pips for her orbs).

Considering what the watchdog did, that is not a good plan.

If she fights on the ship itself, its doubtful they will fire off blasts like the one that almost took out her shield. Giving her a defensive advantage. So its not the WORST plan to grind till she gets another upgrade then prays for a flight orb interstellar option. Sure she will need like mach 44k before space travel becomes even remotely feasible, but she might unlock warp engines. Also, with the way things work out for her, its entirely possible she will fight her way to the bridge, grab the last orb by mistake, and learn its a universal translator that lets her pilot the vessel to earth because everything is so well labeled.

[AvatarVecna]

Additionally, she should at least stick around this place for awhile. Beyond the fact that she can't get very far, spatially speaking, doesn't change that leaving the last place her allies new where she was (even if they're not quite sure where that is yet) is probably a bad idea if she's wanting to hook up with them.

[Lamech]

The orb could just dynamically pick nearby planet or spaceships or suns as reference points. It makes no sense to create an orb that works that way but it could. (The only way that would make sense though is if the orb worked by somehow using an massive object as an anker and moving you around relative to it. Or something weird like that.)

Using something as an "anchor" really wouldn't be too weird. There has to be an equal and opposite reaction remember? What better to use than a convenient massive object. NOT having a reaction breaks physics pretty bad, so wouldn't that be way stranger?

[lord_khaine]

Using something as an "anchor" really wouldn't be too weird. There has to be an equal and opposite reaction remember? What better to use than a convenient massive object. NOT having a reaction breaks physics pretty bad, so wouldn't that be way stranger?

The Orbs already break that into tiny little pieces as far as i can see. Whats another fracture when the vase is already lying spread out across the ground?

And really.. its not like Sydney has -any- actually good options at the moment. Besides either staying alive, or trying to figure out what the last orbs does.
Right now there are only options that are less likely to see her killed before resque.

That aside, i figured out what one of the last orbs are likely going to be. Some sort of substenance/mental refreshment.

Because eventually Sydney is going to need to sleep. And i dont think she can do so in space.

[5a Violista]

Alternatively she can move at a max speed of 4939.2 KM/H. Which is Mach 4 on Earth. That might not be Mach 4 elsewhere, but Sydney's orb doesn't adjust it's speed to always be 4 times faster then the current location's speed of sound. Because that sounds really silly when you word it like that.

Honestly, though, to me Sydney's orb adjusting its speed to be 4x faster than the speed of sound of the atmosphere around her doesn't sound any more silly than adjusting its speed to be 4939.2 km/h faster than whatever large object she's nearest.

In fact, adjusting itself to be relative to the speed of sound of the surrounding objects seems to be even MORE reasonable to me than arbitrarily changing what distant large object it defines its speed.

[HandofShadows]

That move lives up to it's name.

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I really didn't think the PPO was that powerful.

[Sean Mirrsen]

I think there was more than a little bit of Gundam in that Robotech.

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It's curious that the focusing aperture remains despite the firing mode being the usual beam. Possibility of making the beam wider but reducing the power?

Also, typical cheaply made fighters in typical idiotically tight too-close-to-survive-neighbor's-explosion formation. Why is it that any time you see a beam weapon strike through a formation of mooks in anime, they explode in droves even if they were a good distance away from the actual path of the beam?

[Rogar Demonblud]

It feels like trying to hold on to a sun as you fire. It should be that powerful if that's the description.

[5a Violista]

Honestly, though, to me Sydney's orb adjusting its speed to be 4x faster than the speed of sound of the atmosphere around her doesn't sound any more silly than adjusting its speed to be 4939.2 km/h faster than whatever large object she's nearest.

In fact, adjusting itself to be relative to the speed of sound of the surrounding objects seems to be even MORE reasonable to me than arbitrarily changing what distant large object it defines its speed.

(Replying to myself, how weird)

Well, in the commentary to the new comic, the author admitted that the flight orb logically doesn't work the way he originally thought. He originally thought it would have a hard-cap top-speed of Mach 4 (Not sure yet if he knows Mach-speeds are relative to the speed of sound of the medium).

Now, he says it remains with a max-speed of Mach 4 in-atmosphere, and the orb has a max (out-of-atmosphere) acceleration of 16g.

So, the flight orb now seems to work more in line with physics, with little-or-no dependency on the speed of sound and no dependency on the reference frames of nearby objects.