If you were a Wizard...

[Nifft]

Interesting. You accuse me of starting the fight, when the post I made directly quoted somebody else. If there was a first punch thrown, it wasn't by me.

The people who were talking about Outsiders visiting talk shows? That's not a punch, that's humor, and it'd been going on in the thread for a while before you stepped in and made it ugly.

The person claiming that their favorite talk show represented "people with a firm grasp on reality and a dedication to the truth"? That guy is at fault. Talk shows are entertainment and advertising -- not reality, not truth.

That guy at fault was you, in case it's not clear.

And as even THAT is responding more than I probably should, I'll cease to reply to your efforts to bait me into a political slugfest. I am too easily baited as it is.

There is nobody here rising to your bait.

Claiming that you're the victim won't get a rise, either, since you're not.

I'm discussing your posts, which are the only political thing here -- and if you cease posting them, all "inappropriate" content will thereby cease.

[Segev]

So, as far as the thread is concerned, let's say we wake up with a popup screen, like what happens in The Gamer (or any of the many and varied derivative fanfictions out there), and we set up our character build. We get everything a level 20 wizard gets, and we get to choose the options that best suit us.

It's a lot less annoying that way, and it's not like it'd take very long to work up to that anyway, given how easy it is to use, say, greater planar binding to get infiniwishes.

This is probably a good way to approach it. My personal assumption was that we get WBL because it's part of being a level 20 character, and because I always get annoyed by "X inserted into Y!" hypotheticals where the rules get changed so that X isn't really a fully-empowered X. (The most egregious I've seen being things like, "Well, since magic isn't real and doesn't work in the real world, the Wizard 20 wouldn't actually have any magical powers.") That kind of thing undermines the whole premise, and makes it a bait-and-switch scenario.

Having a pop-up screen, vivid dream, or other "chargen session" to create your Wizard 20 power suite (including GP to spend on spellbooks and other required items) would be a reasonable way to approach it.

Especially since, "You're a Wizard 20 in your real life; what do you do?" is a very different question than "You're going to become a wizard 20, but are starting at level 1 with a few starter spells; what do you do?" And anything that requires you to bootstrap from no spells to your first spells via standard research will follow a progression very similar to what is theoretically being modeled by the level-up process (even if that's a poor model for anything but adventuring wizards).



Also, regarding Int, I would assume you at LEAST get the +5 from your every-4-levels bonuses, and that any of us would put those straight into Int because we all know how important it is to being a Wizard 20. I'd guess most of us are between 12 and 15 Int natively. At worst, that would mean some of us are stuck with only 17 Int after the +5, and a simple +2 int item (which we, of course, can build) would get us to the 19 minimum necessary to have full spell access.

[Kalkra]

I always kinda assumed that the automatic spells a wizard gets are kinda like all the spells a sorcerer gets. They just kinda come to him due to his magical powers influencing his mind or something, and then he writes them down in his spellbook.

[Nifft]

I always kinda assumed that the automatic spells a wizard gets are kinda like all the spells a sorcerer gets. They just kinda come to him due to his magical powers influencing his mind or something, and then he writes them down in his spellbook.

In some lore, they're spells that the Wizard has been researching over the duration of the previous level.

When the Wizard levels up, he or she completes that research.

This makes more sense if the level-up process takes more time than the "DING!" *click* which OotS lampoons.

[Eldonauran]

I always kinda assumed that the automatic spells a wizard gets are kinda like all the spells a sorcerer gets. They just kinda come to him due to his magical powers influencing his mind or something, and then he writes them down in his spellbook.

That is similar to how I treat the sudden acquisition of wizard spells, however, I treat them more like an epiphany. The wizard has a sudden flash of insight towards how the magic is interacting in a new way (ie, new spell level access) and by dwelling on these new methods, he writes down the information (tweaking it as he goes) until it produces a spell. It is more 'spontaneous' researching and he is likely to have taken many notes before he puts them all together and gets a functioning spell.

Sorcerers? Hell, they just grab hold of that arcane energy through sheer force of personality and force it into the shape and function that they want. Them getting new spells is like figuring out a new, fun thing to do with the magic, and making it happen.

[Andor13]

Hmm, how do you think people would handle the more evil aspects of that with a devil or demon into the mix?

It depends, obviously. I think a great deal of value could come from a really, really good interviewer getting a chance to interview a devil that had been bound to give truthful answers. There is always value in those who seek to do good, grasping the nature of evil, unpleasant though it may be. For example: The Screwtape Letters.

It could also go magnificently badly if mishandled. You would definitely want to do some divinations before setting it up, and briefing the interviewer would probably help.

I am not assuming free will is non-existent, merely that in the end, how much you object or reason, the will of the entity (internal or external) would be supreme. Just because something can ignore or override your free will does not mean it doesn't exist.

Well, obviously if you have a GM/Deity then their will is supreme, but the allure of being a mythic hero is the chance to actually meet them face to face and ask "What the hell man?"

[Segev]

That is similar to how I treat the sudden acquisition of wizard spells, however, I treat them more like an epiphany. The wizard has a sudden flash of insight towards how the magic is interacting in a new way (ie, new spell level access) and by dwelling on these new methods, he writes down the information (tweaking it as he goes) until it produces a spell. It is more 'spontaneous' researching and he is likely to have taken many notes before he puts them all together and gets a functioning spell.

Sorcerers? Hell, they just grab hold of that arcane energy through sheer force of personality and force it into the shape and function that they want. Them getting new spells is like figuring out a new, fun thing to do with the magic, and making it happen.

The explanation I run unless there's solid fluff to the contrary for a particular game is that wizards are masters of manipulating ancient (and sometimes negotiating new) contracts with supernatural forces, and that most spells are actually clusters of clauses from various bargains being performed in specific partially-complete ways that get partially-complete responses which the wizard can manipulate into combining to produce the effect he's seeking.

So most wizards' spellbooks are so hard for others to parse because they're usually not neatly organized into singular spells the way "published" ones are. They're full of personal notes, snippets of contracts and bargains, details on how particular effects work and what to do to prepare them, and net combinations of recipes to make things work together. Also probably fair numbers of notes dedicated to preparation of multiple spells in combination to get the most out of the preparation time.

A "new spell" earned at level-up will rarely be a heading in his spellbook, followed by a neatly-written instructions. It will rather be his ongoing study and note-taking leading him to a series of small epiphanies and puzzle-solutions, and he'll have perfected a shorthand list of steps for preparation that only he really understands.

[Quertus]

Actually, people seem to be presuming "poof, you're a 20th lvl wizard with feats and spells and no work." Instant gratification so to speak. Like a "you are the chosen one."

Just doesn't sit right with me because the universe doesn't work like that. I'd imagine it as "you suddenly find you can access some source of power. This power will allow you to manipulate reality in ways similar to D&D spells. Now you have to figure out how it works."

You'd basically feel power build up with certain hand movements and words... and eventually figure out how to build that power into a spell using sound, words and in some cases components.

It would mostly be trial and error, similar to inventing a light bulb.

Well, the OP, IIRC, gave us the abilities of a 20th level Wizard. But never specified the mechanics. So, afaik, we may well just be a X-man mutants with powers that emulate the spells of a 20th level Wizard.

But just feeling magic and being able to learn it? That's the powers of a 0th level Wizard / Sorcerer.

I mean if a GM said, 'Hey guys let's all play a game next week where you walk through a gate and then you're in our world for a time.' Then described to us all how our feats, spells, skills, etc dont work because ours is not a magical gameworld that'd be crummy.

Similarly, if the thread's about a Wiz 20 in our world taking its superpowers away because you dont think superpowers work the way the game says seems crummy to me.

By RAW (2e), that's not entirely unlike what would happen. By RAW (2e), this is, IIRC, a low-magic world. Artifacts would still work - well, truly magical artifacts would still work, whereas artifacts that were only artifacts because they were technology beyond the default 2e D&D world level, like cars and guns and cuisinarts would, I believe, return to working as technology.

Fortunately,, IIRC the OP didn't ask about a level 20 wizard entering our world - it asked what we would do with that much power in this world.

Hm, the conjecture of, "Does any given spell work in our reality the same was it does as presented in the table top game." Is interesting, and many spells certainly would work as they are written, some would not. For example, does Teleportation spells account for the rotation of the earth? And other cross-roads that magic and physics might run into.

But all of that is rendered moot due to the existence of the Spell research rules, because with a decent enough spellcraft check, you can make a spell that works in the same in your current reality, and it wouldn't affect the level very much. A Fireball is a Fireball regardless of the slight variances of causing spontaneous conflagrations in a controlled sphere for your current dimension/plane.

Of course, if you want to take it to the next step and question the result of "Do you even have skill points?" that would certainly go beyond the scope of this thread.

However, being 20th level also includes skill points, you could take 23 ranks of Knowledge(Physics) and/or Profession(Astrophyscist), and finally crack those pesky equations necessary to get humanity off of our tiny rock, or Profession (Stockbroker), and become rich the mundane way. But we still got magic guys! C'mon!

Teleportation spells etc require a specific planar geography to function - a geography which was started as a given in the OP.

And, IIRC, the OP specified the power, not the mechanics or source of that power.

It's almost like the OP had read my objections in other threads before making this one...

Once you have enough money to research a spell of "Hastend spell research" allowing you to take days or hours to complete it, then you're back to it being a non-factor.

Quertus, my signature academia mage, for whom this account is named, created just such a spell. You're the first/only person, other than myself, who I've seen even suggest such an obviously beneficial spell. Kudos!

We all know magic wouldn't work in reality,

Citation please. Oh, wait...

Well, we know that magic hasn't worked yet.

It's possible that magic doesn't work in reality only because everyone on Earth has been assigned a non-magical base class like Expert, and we lack access to magical devices so even UMD ranks "don't work" because there's no magic devices beyond smartphones.

The first Wizard 20 might be 100% compatible with reality's secret rules.

I think the most accurate statement may be that most Playgrounders believe that magic isn't real, but that no-one has presented proof in either direction. Magic may well work on earth; although, by RAW (2e, at least), D&D magic would have some serious issues. So, if D&D Magic were "real", and worked according to RAW, it (mostly) wouldn't work here.

[One Step Two]

Teleportation spells etc require a specific planar geography to function - a geography which was started as a given in the OP.

You are quite correct, I was merely using Teleportation as an example of a spell which can be seen as at odds with how "reality" works.

Quertus, my signature academia mage, for whom this account is named, created just such a spell. You're the first/only person, other than myself, who I've seen even suggest such an obviously beneficial spell. Kudos!

Why thank you! Also, when I developed the spell, it was using a Simulacrum in my personal library, even with only half my skill ranks, it boasted enough bonuses that it could research the spell while I was busy with other tasks. The world won't save itself you know!

Back to the main topic, I think I am more firm on my "hands off" approach to wizardry in reality if I were suddenly imbued with power. Much like typical Comic Book hero's "one rule" when breaking all the others, mine would be that I would never deny the free will of others, even if they are making the wrong choice. Of course, hedging rules is a staple, so if I stack the deck in favor of the right choices....

[Xar Zarath]

...Back to the main topic, I think I am more firm on my "hands off" approach to wizardry in reality if I were suddenly imbued with power. Much like typical Comic Book hero's "one rule" when breaking all the others, mine would be that I would never deny the free will of others, even if they are making the wrong choice. Of course, hedging rules is a staple, so if I stack the deck in favor of the right choices....

So you would keep an eye out on humanity but keeping your distance? Or help some people out once in a while...

[One Step Two]

So you would keep an eye out on humanity but keeping your distance? Or help some people out once in a while...

Yes to both! As I mentioned in my first post, I would try playing at the invisible hand to guide humanity. Powerful Divination spells and heightened intellect and skills for days means I can apply myself to pushing humanity along from afar after I've had my fun. Though admittedly, creating a spell to solve global warming or eliminate all the carbon on the atmosphere just to see how people react would be kinda fun! Other than that helping some people with my new powers is certainly something my current morality would indulge in, but I have no way of knowing if that would change if I attain the power of a 20th level wizard.

On typing this out, I realized I would totally act like the God-Emperor of Mankind did in the Warhammer 40K setting, hah. Can I trade my wizard levels for the as-written Erudite, with the Spell-to-Power variant please?

[AnonymousPepper]

Yes to both! As I mentioned in my first post, I would try playing at the invisible hand to guide humanity. Powerful Divination spells and heightened intellect and skills for days means I can apply myself to pushing humanity along from afar after I've had my fun. Though admittedly, creating a spell to solve global warming or eliminate all the carbon on the atmosphere just to see how people react would be kinda fun! Other than that helping some people with my new powers is certainly something my current morality would indulge in, but I have no way of knowing if that would change if I attain the power of a 20th level wizard.

On typing this out, I realized I would totally act like the God-Emperor of Mankind did in the Warhammer 40K setting, hah. Can I trade my wizard levels for the as-written Erudite, with the Spell-to-Power variant please?

Spell research or Wish says yes, and you'd probably fluff it as using Psychic Reformation as a template.

Thing you gotta remember is that, unopposed, with no plot to distract you, there is almost no difference between a Wizard 20 and a Wizard 20000 plus arbitrary ranks of any other class you want plus maximum divine ranks. You have NI time; immortality is not hard in 3.5e, and with that accomplished you can feel free to spend as much time as you want on a NI-to-1 time demiplane. Wish or True Creation can generate resources freely at only an initial cost to make the self-resetting trap; thus, you have NI resources, through any number of means. Negative level shenanigans means a net gain of XP and thus levels is possible, so your levels are NI. You are only a few followers away from divine ranks and therefore salient divine abilities (although that's a bit of a double edged sword in case you ever wanna visit Sigil because, being unstatted, the Lady of Pain will forever be outside of your reach, so far as I know). You have NI information thanks to NI skill ranks and NI divinations. You are literally impossible to kill - either effectively so due to no magical opposition, or you could go all the way by way of aleax shenanigans. And of course, your ability to effect change in the world is unlimited thanks to either messing around with time (why hello there at will persisted Time Stop) or minionmancy (i.e. simulacra).

The only things stopping a 3.5e wizard 20 from becoming literally omniscient and omnipotent in any D&D game are in-game opposition of equal or greater power level (a god or another wizard, mainly), the GM, and the player's own lack of system knowledge/ambition/competence/etc. You have none of these things in the real world, save some degrees of the latter.

Comparing a real-world wiz20 to the GEoM is an insult to the wizard (put it this way, while the Chaos Gods are unkillable, ain't nothin' stopping you from dropping a NI-DC Sanctify the Wicked on Slaanesh, which is, uh, not something Empy could dream of doing). Hell, you handily outclass whole reality-warping races like the (Halo) Precursors and the Culture; in relation to the latter, your power level is more on the level of the sublimed races, by yourself. The sorts of things that can beat you boil down to already-extant omnipotent deities if any and that's just about it. Aaaaand maybe Team Dai-Gurren simply because they specialize in doing the impossible.

Consider: there is absolutely nothing stopping you from going full Pun-Pun immediately.

[Calthropstu]

Consider: there is absolutely nothing stopping you from going full Pun-Pun immediately.

Which is why I brought up what I did earlier. Pun-Pun relies on a specific interpretation of the rules. And I doubt the universe would have that interpretation work. The gm does exist: It's the universe at large.

Pun-Pun is almost certainly unattainable. Understand too, that there are added dangers to consider. Let's say you DO have or somehow obtain the power of a lvl 20 wizard. Odds are you would break yourself trying to do what's in your post. You'd likely go mad. You'd forget things at the very least at crucial moments. Sure, maybe you'd set up some sort of "remind me" system, but you would eventually fail so hard that you would give up.

In short, you wouldn't succeed, even if it were possible.

[Tetsubo 57]

I'll take an immortal Pathfinder wizard please. I'd work from behind the scenes. I would benefit humanity while also making myself *very* comfortable.

[unseenmage]

Which is why I brought up what I did earlier. Pun-Pun relies on a specific interpretation of the rules. And I doubt the universe would have that interpretation work. The gm does exist: It's the universe at large.

Pun-Pun is almost certainly unattainable. Understand too, that there are added dangers to consider. Let's say you DO have or somehow obtain the power of a lvl 20 wizard. Odds are you would break yourself trying to do what's in your post. You'd likely go mad. You'd forget things at the very least at crucial moments. Sure, maybe you'd set up some sort of "remind me" system, but you would eventually fail so hard that you would give up.

In short, you wouldn't succeed, even if it were possible.

Why? What evidence do you have to make the above statements more than an opinion you're presenting in a fact-like manner?

I am assuming you meant the above as some sort of evidence based critique and not as a series of broad, and at some points borderline offensive, assumptions?

[Avigor]

If I could get away with using the Elven Generalist variant I would, as I'd hate to lose any colleges (not to mention, no scrolls means the extra spells would be OP); I'd also rather have Eidetic Memory than a familiar. In any case, I'd want to avoid people bugging me for magical help, while still providing some help here and there where it's the most important, so ideally the world will never know there is a wizard, just that some problems have mysteriously started resolving themselves, while at approximately the same time a random person happens to win the lottery and shares with his family, as such lottery winners tend to do; if, by some series of circumstances, they do figure out that there is a wizard, then they'll never know who that wizard is... or if they do somehow figure out his identity, they'll learn not to try and screw with him if they value their lives.

The big question is just how far would the power corrupt me... I'm not a sadist, but that doesn't mean I couldn't become apathetic over time...

[Calthropstu]

Why? What evidence do you have to make the above statements more than an opinion you're presenting in a fact-like manner?

I am assuming you meant the above as some sort of evidence based critique and not as a series of broad, and at some points borderline offensive, assumptions?

Think about it for a second. If such loopholes worked, the universe would have been obliterated long ago due to paradox. Any infinite loops that would allow pun-pun, or similar levels of power, would be contingent on bend and even breaking reality itself. Not outside the realm of possibility, but if such were possible, why has nothing done so already?

Also, pun-pun specific, you could really only apply powers that you knew could be applied. You would also need to be of a scaled race and somehow gain the race of the scaled ones... and since those don't exist in our universe, and since that ability doesn't exist in our universe... assuming that form is impossible.

Consider playing 3.5 in a setting specific universe: Real Universe. That's what you'd have access to with polymorph and shapechange. It makes our universe the campaign setting... with whatever controls our universe (if anything) the gm. If nothing does, the gm would be the universe itself.

So, considering all of this... pun-pun is impossible.

[Xar Zarath]

...The big question is just how far would the power corrupt me... I'm not a sadist, but that doesn't mean I couldn't become apathetic over time...

That is a possibility especially if you attain immortality. After a few centuries? you may not want to help anymore and just step back permanently.

What about the rest? Would such power eventually wear out your patience?

[rferries]

Chiming in!

1. Personal Duties
I'd definitely use magic to help my immediate friends and family, but in as subtle a way as possible. Wouldn't hesitate to use limited wish/wish to duplicate powerful divine healing spells for them if necessary, though.

2. Professional Duties
I'm a doctor, so I'd craft/wish for magic items to treat otherwise-incurable conditions, namely:

-cure minor wounds (for stabilising emergency patients)
-lesser restoration, remove blindness/deafness, remove disease (for HIV, even cancer too!), neutralise poison
-even heal (for psychiatry) and regeneration, if possible
-an item granting a competence bonus to Heal checks too, why not

Ideally the items would be slotless (disguised as tattoos?) or I'd otherwise have to swear my patients to secrecy. I'd want them to be unlimited uses/day, so it'd probably require multiple wishes to upgrade the base items. The XP cost would be worth it in the long run, though. Alternatively, I could do most of the crafting and conjure friendly outsiders to provide the relevant SLA's.

3. With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility
The toughest and most intimidating part... I would have a duty to improve the lives of all. One wizard alone can't create a Tippyverse, so I'd have to effect change by targeting world leaders.

Greater invisibility/shapechange into an invisible pixie/will o'wisp/etc, cast tongues, then start greater teleporting around the world to use charm monster/suggestion/dominate person on various world leaders that aren't serving the public good. Even if I used Extend Spell, I'd have to constantly be revisiting the targets to refresh the enchantments, or to start enchanting the next leaders if the originals are overthrown.

Alternatively, use bestow curse to make undesirable leaders permanently unelectable (e.g. curse them to become compulsive nudists during public speaking or somesuch, or better yet to suffer a constant zone of truth effect), or use a potential RAW interpretation of lesser geas that they should permanently pursue social democrat policies.

Permanencied symbols of persuasion could get a LOT done - would just need to install a few of them in houses of parliament etc around the world, to influence the votes of MPs/senators etc.

4. NO Immortality
I wouldn't want to live forever, simple as that.

[AnonymousPepper]

Think about it for a second. If such loopholes worked, the universe would have been obliterated long ago due to paradox. Any infinite loops that would allow pun-pun, or similar levels of power, would be contingent on bend and even breaking reality itself. Not outside the realm of possibility, but if such were possible, why has nothing done so already?

Also, pun-pun specific, you could really only apply powers that you knew could be applied. You would also need to be of a scaled race and somehow gain the race of the scaled ones... and since those don't exist in our universe, and since that ability doesn't exist in our universe... assuming that form is impossible.

Consider playing 3.5 in a setting specific universe: Real Universe. That's what you'd have access to with polymorph and shapechange. It makes our universe the campaign setting... with whatever controls our universe (if anything) the gm. If nothing does, the gm would be the universe itself.

So, considering all of this... pun-pun is impossible.

1. In-universe explanation: deities exist and are likely to smite you. Mystra would personally body somebody who tried to go Pun-Pun in the Realms. And then inexplicably die because Mystra.

2. Wish means that you could still absolutely turn into one, because Wish is friggin' broken like that.

[Andor13]

Chiming in!

4. NO Immortality
I wouldn't want to live forever, simple as that.

Extending lifespan? Sure. Irreversible immortality? There are just too many ways you might come to regret that.

[Segev]

Extending lifespan? Sure. Irreversible immortality? There are just too many ways you might come to regret that.

I have never understood this attitude.

I have heard and grasped the arguments, but they always seem so ... empty, to me. But, this probably isn't the place to debate the subject, which could get fairly morbid. Just wanted to say, "I disagree, fundamentally."

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I have never understood this attitude.

I have heard and grasped the arguments, but they always seem so ... empty, to me. But, this probably isn't the place to debate the subject, which could get fairly morbid. Just wanted to say, "I disagree, fundamentally."

Yeah, especially when you have magic that can ensure that all of the arguments against immortality are rendered null and void.

Dead loved ones? No longer an issue.

Ennui? No longer an issue.

Watching the world going by, leaving you behind? No longer an issue.

Overpopulation because nobody dies because everyone's immortal? No longer an issue.

Etc. etc. etc.

[rferries]

Extending lifespan? Sure. Irreversible immortality? There are just too many ways you might come to regret that.

Indeed!

I have never understood this attitude.

I have heard and grasped the arguments, but they always seem so ... empty, to me. But, this probably isn't the place to debate the subject, which could get fairly morbid. Just wanted to say, "I disagree, fundamentally."

Yeah, especially when you have magic that can ensure that all of the arguments against immortality are rendered null and void.

Dead loved ones? No longer an issue.

Ennui? No longer an issue.

Watching the world going by, leaving you behind? No longer an issue.

Overpopulation because nobody dies because everyone's immortal? No longer an issue.

Etc. etc. etc.

Eternity is a very long time. A 20th-level immortal wizard can do anything - even create his own planes via genesis (after the heat death of each prior universe), but what happens when you have finally and literally seen and done everything? When you've made your loved ones immortal too, but have grown sick of them (or you and they have changed so much over the eons that you no longer love each other)? The only way I can see immortality being tolerable is if you cast an enchantment on yourself to make it seem tolerable - and then you've effectively killed your old mind anyways.

Sure, maybe have a "snooze button" where you can keep adding more time to your lifespan in finite amounts, but I'd always want to have the option of stopping sometime.

[Segev]

Eternity is a very long time. A 20th-level immortal wizard can do anything - even create his own planes via genesis (after the heat death of each prior universe), but what happens when you have finally and literally seen and done everything? When you've made your loved ones immortal too, but have grown sick of them (or you and they have changed so much over the eons that you no longer love each other)? The only way I can see immortality being tolerable is if you cast an enchantment on yourself to make it seem tolerable - and then you've effectively killed your old mind anyways.

Sure, maybe have a "snooze button" where you can keep adding more time to your lifespan in finite amounts, but I'd always want to have the option of stopping sometime.

You can make anything. You can make planes of anything. You have all your loved ones and friends and their friends and loved ones and...really, almost no excuse not to have practically everyone sticking around.

The ingenuity to create is as boundless as the number of people. Boredom will only happen if you set out for it to.

And ... well, don't become sick of your friends and loved ones. The notion that this is inevitable flies in the face of the very nature of humanity. People only grow apart when they pull themselves apart. Yes, it can take effort to maintain some relationships, but the closer you are the easier it is. And if you do "grow sick" of them, separate. You can make new friends wherever you choose to go. Possibly literally.

[Andor13]

Yeah, especially when you have magic that can ensure that all of the arguments against immortality are rendered null and void.

Dead loved ones? No longer an issue.

Ennui? No longer an issue.

Watching the world going by, leaving you behind? No longer an issue.

Overpopulation because nobody dies because everyone's immortal? No longer an issue.

Etc. etc. etc.

I'm not sure how D&D Wizard magic solves any of those problems. You can bring back the dead, true. If they want to come back. Until they age out, then you need to reincarnate them, in which case they might not really be the same person anymore.

I'm unfamiliar with the "Cure Ennui" spell.

So, in 200 years when verbal speech is a forgotten historical relic you're going to be willing to go under the knife and let them implant the radio-telepathy implants so you can converse with people? Even if the divinations are unclear on if that will mess up your spellcasting? Or in 12 million years, when none of the seven successor species of humanity retain the concept of individuality you're going to be willing to join one of the group minds?

Really not following you on this one, are you sterilizing all of humanity, or just keeping immortality to yourself?

[Segev]

I'm not sure how D&D Wizard magic solves any of those problems. You can bring back the dead, true. If they want to come back. Until they age out, then you need to reincarnate them, in which case they might not really be the same person anymore.

I'm unfamiliar with the "Cure Ennui" spell.

So, in 200 years when verbal speech is a forgotten historical relic you're going to be willing to go under the knife and let them implant the radio-telepathy implants so you can converse with people? Even if the divinations are unclear on if that will mess up your spellcasting? Or in 12 million years, when none of the seven successor species of humanity retain the concept of individuality you're going to be willing to join one of the group minds?

Really not following you on this one, are you sterilizing all of humanity, or just keeping immortality to yourself?

Not following what makes you think that you can't share immortality, or that if you DO share it, it is inevitable that you'll be left lonely and alone as every other immortal decides they don't want to do things the way you still want to.

It seems like your arguments require simultaneously no other immortals and everybody else also being immortal to create the miserable circumstances you outline.

Or, rather, you insinuate that the problem arises unless you keep it to yourself, but all the problems you list seem solved by having other immortals of or around your generation.

The "cure ennui" spell is called "getting a life." With infinite time and magic to cure literal physiological causes of mental infirmities (e.g. clinical depression), that's not the callous response it might be IRL to somebody suffering ennui in our current circumstances.

So those "seven successor species" are still able to interact with not just you, but all your fellow humans going back to your generation. Telepathic bond is something you've probably already perfected as a preferred means of communication before the radio implants even happen, and researching a "Machine Interface" spell to let you do anything the neural-linked can do is hardly beyond the power of a 20+ level wizard. Even if there is, for some reason, literally no way to come up with a level 9 or lower spell to do it, I bet somebody on this forum could use the Epic Spell system to write a spell to do just that.

All these "problems" are trivially overcome in comparison to things you're doing every Tuesday night as part of the weekly dungeon crawl you and your friends throw for fun. Because you can make demiplanes, so of course you are.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'm not sure how D&D Wizard magic solves any of those problems. You can bring back the dead, true. If they want to come back. Until they age out, then you need to reincarnate them, in which case they might not really be the same person anymore.

It's easy in 3.X to make yourself and others immortal. There are so many ways I don't think it's even possible to list them all. Just as one of the more popular examples, storing your bodies on a timeless demiplane and using astral projection to interact with the world.

I'm unfamiliar with the "Cure Ennui" spell.

That's pretty easy. Just make yourself unable to feel boredom. As I mentioned in my post, I'd be making a few minor alterations to my personality, one of which involves using mindrape and maybe psychic chirurgery to make it impossible for me to feel bored or depressed (the former of which only occurs when I suffer from the latter, for me). It's only a matter of keeping your testosterone, dopamine, and serotonin high and in balance, from what I've read and experienced. That, and by preventing toxic crap from messing with your hormonal balance. Easily done with magic.

So, in 200 years when verbal speech is a forgotten historical relic you're going to be willing to go under the knife and let them implant the radio-telepathy implants so you can converse with people? Even if the divinations are unclear on if that will mess up your spellcasting? Or in 12 million years, when none of the seven successor species of humanity retain the concept of individuality you're going to be willing to join one of the group minds?

Real telepathy is a thing, very doable with magic. And if humanity becomes the Borg, that's the point where you should probably start over elsewhere, or possibly destroy it. Because the Borg are an abomination.

High level wizards (especially at levels 20+) have a stupidly powerful and versatile toolset. If you can't solve a problem with magic, skills, feats, intelligence, and creativity, you're not trying hard enough.

Really not following you on this one, are you sterilizing all of humanity, or just keeping immortality to yourself?

Nope. If the Earth becomes overpopulated to the point where it becomes a major issue, you've got an entire universe to explore. And if that threatens to become too small, branch out into the multiverse. And if that starts becoming an issue, I'd have the power to create new ones. Basically, no matter how much the problem escalates, I could escalate more to fix it.

[Andor13]

Not following what makes you think that you can't share immortality, or that if you DO share it, it is inevitable that you'll be left lonely and alone as every other immortal decides they don't want to do things the way you still want to.

It seems like your arguments require simultaneously no other immortals and everybody else also being immortal to create the miserable circumstances you outline.

Or, rather, you insinuate that the problem arises unless you keep it to yourself, but all the problems you list seem solved by having other immortals of or around your generation.

I'm not following you. How does keeping a pool of your current friends around as buddies solve the problem of being left behind by an evolving humanity? It seems quite the opposite to me.

I mean first, how are you handing out immortality like candy? There aren't a lot of ways to do it that I know of besides sequestering someone in a timeless demi-plane or making them undead, both of which have obvious issues.

The problems with immortality, in the long run, have very little to do with loneliness. They have to do with change. You will change, the world will change, humanity will change. Immortality with no escape button? So 10 billion years from now, when the earth and the rest of the Solar System are long since reduced to ash by the Sun's Red Giant phase, when you have been to every inhabited star system in the galaxy. When you have watched stars be born and die. When you have reached the limits of what your mind could grasp even with +11 to all your stats, and then remade yourself to learn more, and then done it again, and again, and again. When you have made, and lived in a 10,000 utopias, and wallowed in hells of your own making for millions of years, are you sure things will seem fresh and there will be plenty of new things to do? In 100 billion years, when the galaxy itself is starting to dim, when you have tired of all the various art forms you invented to mold continents into amusing shapes by manipulating tectonic forces over millions of years, when you've had to reinvent organic life for the 1000th time, there will still be plenty to do? In a trillion years, when the last of the Dyson spheres huddled around their dying stars have gone dark, and the furthest galaxies are flickering embers, are you sure your Friday night dungeon crawls will still appeal? And 100 trillion years past that, when there are no atoms remaining in the observable universe that you didn't make yourself, are you sure you won't want to have even the option to check out?

[Andor13]

Nope. If the Earth becomes overpopulated to the point where it becomes a major issue, you've got an entire universe to explore. And if that threatens to become too small, branch out into the multiverse. And if that starts becoming an issue, I'd have the power to create new ones. Basically, no matter how much the problem escalates, I could escalate more to fix it.

Ah. So you didn't mean it's not a problem. You mean it's just not a problem for you. True enough, if you're callous enough.