OOTS #1126 - The Discussion Thread

[Aquillion]

It wouldn't kill anyone to have Elan making use of his Will save for once and I don't think his Wis is the complete pits, unlike his Int.

We know that Elan doesn't even have a smidgen of Wisdom. And it's very likely Dashing Swordsman has a poor Will save, too (at least, all the homebrew versions of it do. And while that's not by Giant, the second one is by the 3e Exalted lead developer! So it's sort-of official in some universe!)

While Elan's Bard levels would keep him from being rock bottom, his Will save could still be very low.

[AstralFire]

We know that Elan doesn't even have a smidgen of Wisdom.

I'll say that I've never found that quote terribly convincing (comic 80, and Roy's being a jerk). Elan is remarkably good at coming up with insights into people and has a strong sense of will. I'd be surprised if his Wis was worse than a -1 penalty on average despite the poor common sense, which is more than low enough to qualify for 'can't cast as a cleric'. If you have most of your levels in Bard and you're somewhere in the teens with a -1 wis penalty, you still should be around on par with even a very wise fighter of the same level.

The larger point, however, is that I just don't find Roy's highlighting in this plot to be interesting enough (as of yet) to merit basically everyone else being reduced to a background, and there's plausible enough reasons for others to not be disabled. I am not especially interested in a long debate to narrow down exact ability scores.

[Akari Itagami]

Hey btw is he not bending the rules when asking to handover the baby? (Sorta like Suggestion can't make a person killing his ownself) has this been mentioned somewhere in the thread?

[AstralFire]

Hey btw is he not bending the rules when asking to handover the baby? (Sorta like Suggestion can't make a person killing his ownself) has this been mentioned somewhere in the thread?

There have been a few opinions about that on this thread, but the general mood is that either without overtly threatening the baby, it's not strong enough against Hilgya's nature, or she did get a new chance to save and failed again. In general, dominate is a really strong spell series, and much stronger than suggestion.

[Mad Humanist]

I'll say that I've never found that quote terribly convincing (comic 80, and Roy's being a jerk). Elan is remarkably good at coming up with insights into people and has a strong sense of will.

Given that Elan's next line is:

Nah, that's just what they WANT you to believe. It's all a bug conspiracy you know.

I imagine in our world Elan would be a wearing a tin-foil hat. His "bardic knowledge" would consist of all the stupidest conspiracy theories you heard all mashed into one. Including several he had made up all by himself. However he'd actually be fun to listen to.

[Deathhappens]

I thought Durkula was Lawful Evil and agreed to let Durkon's family live. This... does not seem to be him upholding his end of that bargain.

The letter of the law over the spirit is pretty much the definition of Lawful Evil: Technically, he's just giving Kudzu a hug. YOU would be the one stabbing him if you threw your sword at him, you monster.

[tigerusthegreat]

25k gp is the material cost of True Resurrection. Assuming the Church of Thor did her a favor and waived the casting cost, my personal bet is that Durkon was killed as a baby because Sigdi brought him on an adventure (like Kudzu). This is the same adventure where she lost her arm. She donated all her money to the church to have him True Resurrected and the Church waived the fee in exchange for her son becoming a servant of Thor.

She never regenerated her arm because of the shame she felt endangering her son.

She never told him because of her shame and she didn't want him to know about his obligations.

She couldn't use Resurrection or Raise Dead because as a baby he would not have survived (maybe? My personal rule would be that a baby wouldn't survive the loss of 2 Con and is level 0).

[KorvinStarmast]

But no player I’ve ever played with has ever run out of arrows, and I can’t imaine a DM that has actually ever tracked arrows for a player, like you are claiming that DMs do.

IN AD&D 1e we tracked them with considerable care. Most of us made little 2x5 grids of boxes, and used an X out method to track arrows expended. (With six to eight players at a time, there was lots of time to make little marks to indicate ammo expenditures. Same with silver tipped arrows, and silver bullets for slings). Not sure what the aversion to tracking arrows is in the setting you describe. We track spells with little boxes as well. Pencils are handy that way. So is using clear shelf paper to cover that box so that the erase/mark doesn't tear up the paper.

I carried that habit forward ....

[Fyraltari]

Durkon on his worst day was still a follower of thor, and didn't blame him, nor disliked him, just the idiots who threw him out. undurkon on his birth was a follower of hel.

I think it was just him being evil taunting the good guy, in retrospect.

To be clear, I am not saying tha Durkon* is a second Durkon the way, say the Metacrisis Doctor was a second 10th Doctor. I am saying he is a different person, with the same personnality (and memories more or less) but with a greter emphasis on the darker parts because of how the process works. Durkon was religious, so Darkon is religious but where Durkon's faith was one of service and devotion, Darkon's seems to be more of mutual benefit and servitude. Thor is a fitting god for the former and Hel for the latter. Besides Yhor wouldn't grant Jerkon spells, anyway.

I think what you mean is we have "evidence". Yes, what Greg says is evidence.

If you say so.

My answer is: The same reason I do not believe, say, Tarquin when he claims his bloodbaths of conquest are saving lives in the big picture. While such a claim is within the realm of the plausible, the speaker here (1) could easily not know the truth of the claim, (2) probably does not care about the truth of the claim, in terms of being willing to spend effort to find out, (3) probably does not care about the truth of the claim, in terms of being willing to spend resources to make it true if it turns out to probably not be, and (4) seems to be the kind of person who would enjoy making the claim regardless of the statuses of #1 and #2 and #3.

Greg fits the bill, too. He could easily not know. He may well not care whether it is true. Even if he happened to know it was not true would he refrain from employing an effective psychological weapon against Durkon for the sake of not lying?

Greg is not a convincing witness here.

My point is not wether Greg can be trusted but wether the comic can be trusted. This is the only explanation we have gotten so far on vampirism. We could get another one later but I'm not seeing how. It fits with what we have seen in-comic and more importantly it fits about the theme of this particular book (Durkon is being faced with the truths he had been denied/he pretended were not there for years. And he happens to be litterally facing his own demons. That doesn't work nearly as well if the spirit is completely unrelated and just rolepkaying as Durkon's dark side or whatever).

Durkon was self-serving when he was bodily chucked out of his home? He was angry, for very good reasons. What does angry have to do with self-serving?

Wether or not he had good reasons is irrelevant to wether or not he was being self serving at the moment. He wasn't angry on behalf of anybody but himself there, he wished the entire dwarven race harm so that he would feel better.

This kind of anger is entirely self serving. And that's okay. Being self-serving does not equal being evil anymore than being selfless equals being good. Durkon had avery right to be angry (but not to act on it like the Low Priest of Hel does) and Whiskers-in-the-Dark has a point about Durkon being a spectator in his own life before being made one (he isn't in the right but he has a point).

[brian 333]

I agree with Fyraltari. While the characters in the story should not believe anything Durkula says, not all liars always lie.

Narratively it makes no sense for the author to intentionally misrepresent the mechanics of his universe. It would be an interesting approach to create a false picture in the readers' minds which is later explained and corrected, but that, in my mind, risks the whole, "Its a dream," issue in which readers feel cheated.

After fifteen years of OotS, Rich has yet to leave me feeling cheated.

[Shatteredtower]

Hilgya was free to not go on a revenge quest that involved going straight into a temple in an attempt to murder a high-level spellcaster there. Unlike a PC in a campaign, there's no central game conceit that Hilgya needs to be going on adventures; she could have kept Kudzu in sight and out of harm's way, by not going into harm's way.

She's not in a game, but she is in a setting where narrative causality has a rough and aggressive sense of humour.

In "Answering the Callback" (#1106), she tells the Order that Loki sent her here, in answer to her prayers. She's on assignment--one that she wanted, but the next strip makes it clear she didn't know Durkon had become a vampire. As far as she knew when she took the job, she'd be confronting a dwarf that would never harm a child. There was no safer place for Kudzu under those circumstances than under the direct supervision of a high level cleric Hilgya could trust: Hilgya.

Once she had the other details, where was she supposed to leave Kudzu that would be safe from the end of the world? She can't just tuck him in a corner somewhere-- the kid wouldn't survive an encounter with one normal rat, let alone a wandering vampire. No, there's no safer place for baby in these circumstances than with a high level cleric, even if she underestimated the dangers of facing a squad of undead spellcasters with the supernatural ability to dominate enemies.

[Keltest]

She's not in a game, but she is in a setting where narrative causality has a rough and aggressive sense of humour.

In "Answering the Callback" (#1106), she tells the Order that Loki sent her here, in answer to her prayers. She's on assignment--one that she wanted, but the next strip makes it clear she didn't know Durkon had become a vampire. As far as she knew when she took the job, she'd be confronting a dwarf that would never harm a child. There was no safer place for Kudzu under those circumstances than under the direct supervision of a high level cleric Hilgya could trust: Hilgya.

Once she had the other details, where was she supposed to leave Kudzu that would be safe from the end of the world? She can't just tuck him in a corner somewhere-- the kid wouldn't survive an encounter with one normal rat, let alone a wandering vampire. No, there's no safer place for baby in these circumstances than with a high level cleric, even if she underestimated the dangers of facing a squad of undead spellcasters with the supernatural ability to dominate enemies.

I think its pretty clear that Hilgya does not actually understand a darn thing about Durkon, up to and including his unwillingness to harm innocents. Indeed, she seems to believe him a cruel and terrible person.

[Grey Watcher]

The 25k gp figure to me suggests True Resurrection. And one of the key distinctions between True Resurrection and its lesser cousins (Resurrection, Raise Dead) is that you don't need any remains. Tenrin's remains are under a few tons of rocks. This is what makes me think that her "donation" was specifically not having Tenrin brought back (thereby saving the church some money). Now, whether that was her idea or she had to be "persuaded" will be interesting to discover (assuming I'm correct).

[siprus]

I bet the Giant has been waiting for this moment for years. Finally we see the long theorized baby armor inaction.

[Fyraltari]

I bet the Giant has been waiting for this moment for years. Finally we see the long theorized baby armor inaction.

I can't tell if that's a pun or a typo.

[tvknight415]

Predictions:

Roy will take a calculated gamble and throw the sword again at Durkula, but will aim deliberately off mark to avoid hitting either. Durkula will continue to be distracted by the memory. Hilgya will sense danger to Kudzu, and combined with his crying, save and break free of the domination. Durkula will suddenly have a very pissed off high level cleric standing right next to him.

[Perficio]

I've got it. Evil Durkon is Durkon's father.

Nobody saw it coming!

[Thecommander236]

Pragmatic, I would love it if it wasn't for how evil it was. Why is he trying to hurt or even KILL the kid though with an anti-life shell? Isn't that going to break Hilyga out of the trance? I mean, I can see him to try to use it as leverage to get Roy to surrender, but that isn't going to work.

[martianmister]

Pragmatic, I would love it if it wasn't for how evil it was. Why is he trying to hurt or even KILL the kid though with an anti-life shell? Isn't that going to break Hilyga out of the trance? I mean, I can see him to try to use it as leverage to get Roy to surrender, but that isn't going to work.

He's not, anti-life shell is to keep Roy away.

[Dion]

Pragmatic, I would love it if it wasn't for how evil it was. Why is he trying to hurt or even KILL the kid though with an anti-life shell? Isn't that going to break Hilyga out of the trance? I mean, I can see him to try to use it as leverage to get Roy to surrender, but that isn't going to work.

The anti-life shell doesn’t do damage to living things, it just prevents “living” things from entering the shell (“living” in this case is shorthand for a long list of creature types).

Based on a strict reading of the spell description, Hilgya and Kudzu are probably free to move around inside the shell, or even leave the shell without ill effect. The only restriction on them seems to be that if they leave the shell, they can’t renter.

[Shatteredtower]

I think its pretty clear that Hilgya does not actually understand a darn thing about Durkon, up to and including his unwillingness to harm innocents. Indeed, she seems to believe him a cruel and terrible person.

She understands he hurt her and saddled her, a cleric of Loki, with responsibility. The only thing she thinks her son needs to fear from him is a bad example and boring lectures about putting duty before happiness. Repeated stabbings were never a concern, and that's not because Durkon always wielded a hammer.

[Mandor]

Predictions:

Roy will take a calculated gamble and throw the sword again at Durkula, but will aim deliberately off mark to avoid hitting either. Durkula will continue to be distracted by the memory. Hilgya will sense danger to Kudzu, and combined with his crying, save and break free of the domination. Durkula will suddenly have a very pissed off high level cleric standing right next to him.

I very much doubt it for two simple reasons.

(a) that's not Roy. Even on his worst day, I do not see Roy choosing to take a gamble that MIGHT result in him murdering a baby if Greg might stand up and move to the left. Greatsword tosses have travel time. He cant' KNOW that an off-center throw is safe.
(b) leaving aside personal mores, if that did anything to Hilgya, it would probably result in Hilgya unloading ALL her firepower.... ON ROY.... as it would be ROY who threw a sword in the general direciton of her baby. THAT would get the aggro, not Greg sitting there with the baby in his lap.

[Dion]

Predictions;

My prediction: OotS will lose this fight.

Roy will be taken down (energy drain, hold person, charm, or whatever).

And after the battle is irrevocably lost, then whatever is being revealed in the flashback will take effect and help... a little.

But the terrible storytelling cliche of being saved by the cavalry will annoy Elan enough to snap him out of the domination, allowing him to sing his song of freedom, saving the day for real — with FREEDOM!

[Elanasaurus]

That he did not do so on some of his bad days only makes him human.

Kudzu isn't human! Stop oppressing dwarfen culture, you anthrocentric stretch!

There.

[Jasdoif]

As far as she knew when she took the job, she'd be confronting a dwarf that would never harm a child.

I think its pretty clear that Hilgya does not actually understand a darn thing about Durkon, up to and including his unwillingness to harm innocents. Indeed, she seems to believe him a cruel and terrible person.

Additionally, a temple of Thor can be reasonably expected to have multiple clerics of Thor, who can be reasonably expected not to be complicit in the murder of one of their own.

Once she had the other details....

...the bad decision had already been made and was being implemented: she was already well on en route into danger with Kudzu. (You could probably find someone to argue that she should have left Kudzu with the acolytes at the temple, but I think we already established that Kudzu's safer with Hilgya in that situation...although not as safe as if he hadn't been brought into that situation in the first place)

[Sapphire Guard]

Very neat. Good work, Giant.

My understanding until contradicted is that this only worked because Durkula actually is the baby's father, she wouldn't have handed him over to any other person.

I've got it. Evil Durkon is Durkon's father.

Huh. This is actually possible, assuming that cave in counted as dying dishonorably. The memory needs to matter somehow for Durkula.

[Keltest]

Very neat. Good work, Giant.

My understanding until contradicted is that this only worked because Durkula actually is the baby's father, she wouldn't have handed him over to any other person.



Huh. This is actually possible, assuming that cave in counted as dying dishonorably. The memory needs to matter somehow for Durkula.

Technically, even if it was against her nature to hand over her baby to anybody (and I think there is evidence that it is), she would just have to fail another save to obey the command. And that's assuming that it was a command at all, and that Greg didn't just take Kudzu from her without giving her any orders at all beyond "come here".

[JumboWheat01]

Elan's attempts to get Roy to join the dominated side continue to be funny.

[StreamOfTheSky]

You sure have. What you haven't done, is explained why the domination gaze power, and for that matter the Dominate Person spell, doesn't spell out "the victim gets a new save to break the Domination whenever you order them to do anything," if any action that benefits an enemy or hurts allies automatically trips the "against your nature" clause.

For nearly all of the order except Belkar (and he's had character growth since the last time that would've been nice to highlight by him making the new save he wouldn't have even gotten previously), attacking your own allies is against their nature. Take Elan for example. He didn't want to fight Nale even when Nale was trying to kill him, and he values Roy just as much. I could see him ceasing to fight either side and trying to talk them into not fighting. But he's gleefully shish-kebabing Roy like it's nothing, and that's ridiculous and against character for him.
As for Hyglia, she hates Durkon and presumably wouldn't want to help his side in the fight. And now vampire Durkon is putting her child in harm's way. But...nope, no new save.

What short of an order to commit suicide would "against your nature" to you?

[Kish]

I'll answer your question when you answer mine.