Would You Be My New Best Friends? (Doctor Who redux)

[Devonix]

That's not quite what I meant. I was referring to him literally being there darkness inside of the doctor given form. Not someone who felt slighted or angry that he got dumped somewhere. But essentially the regeneration energy making it's own body adding up.

[Calemyr]

That's not quite what I meant. I was referring to him literally being there darkness inside of the doctor given form. Not someone who felt slighted or angry that he got dumped somewhere. But essentially the regeneration energy making it's own body adding up.

I understand what you're saying, but you are quoting the Master, an expert (master, even) of twisting words. I wouldn't take him literally. At kindest, I'd read his words poetically. Crisis Doctor is already a bunch of the Doctor's darkest impulses (repeat: genocide within minutes of birth). And if you took away the one thing holding him together, you would get all the worst traits of the Doctor distilled into one being: the Doctor with all the brakes removed.

I'm not saying your interpretation isn't valid, mind. But Tennant has come and gone. We've passed the window for this event to happen. And the only extra body made up predominantly of raw regeneration energy is Crisis Doctor who was, again, originally just a hand with some additional notes cribbed from Donna. We'd have to pull off one hell of a retcon if we were going to try a different path for the Valeyard at this point. Crisis Doctor fits the prerequisites with just a little creative reinterpretation and character growth. So I suspect we're either going to completely ignore Valeyard (most likely) or Crisis Doctor will take on the role. Tennant would be brilliant in it, I think.

[Devonix]

I understand what you're saying, but you are quoting the Master, an expert (master, even) of twisting words. I wouldn't take him literally. At kindest, I'd read his words poetically. Crisis Doctor is already a bunch of the Doctor's darkest impulses (repeat: genocide within minutes of birth). And if you took away the one thing holding him together, you would get all the worst traits of the Doctor distilled into one being: the Doctor with all the brakes removed.

I'm not saying your interpretation isn't valid, mind. But Tennant has come and gone. We've passed the window for this event to happen. And the only extra body made up predominantly of raw regeneration energy is Crisis Doctor who was, again, originally just a hand with some additional notes cribbed from Donna. We'd have to pull off one hell of a retcon if we were going to try a different path for the Valeyard at this point. Crisis Doctor fits the prerequisites with just a little creative reinterpretation and character growth. So I suspect we're either going to completely ignore Valeyard (most likely) or Crisis Doctor will take on the role. Tennant would be brilliant in it, I think.

The time hasn't passed though. They specifically said final incarnation not 13th. Even back then timelords weren't limited to 13 regenerations. It would be perfectly possible for the valeyard not to appear until the 50th version of the doctor.

[Aotrs Commander]

Point of order: the exact wording was that the Valeyard was said to have come from somewhere between the Doctor's "Twelfth and FINAL incarnation;" not 12th and 13th. While, at the time, that was going to have been the intention, but worded as it IS, "final" (which doesn't now have to mean "of his first regeneration cycle"), it gives them lots and lots of wriggle room to interpret that phrase without really retconning it, so they could do the Valeyard pretty much any time they want to now.

[Fyraltari]

It should be noted that the Master never met War, 9, 10.5 and 11, so it's entirely possible that he was wrong about who was 12.

[Telonius]

I think they're keeping the option open for either a retcon or a re-imagining. Last season's last episode practically dangled it in front everybody when the Testimony told the First Doctor he'd be called the Shadow of the Valeyard. If you go back to the original episodes, they had stated that "Valeyard" meant "Learned Prosecutor," so you've got two court-related names (Prosecutor, Testimony) occurring right next to each other.

[Calemyr]

Point of order: the exact wording was that the Valeyard was said to have come from somewhere between the Doctor's "Twelfth and FINAL incarnation;" not 12th and 13th. While, at the time, that was going to have been the intention, but worded as it IS, "final" (which doesn't now have to mean "of his first regeneration cycle"), it gives them lots and lots of wriggle room to interpret that phrase without really retconning it, so they could do the Valeyard pretty much any time they want to now.

You're not wrong, but reading it that way really takes the wind out of prophecy, don't you think?

"Sometime, somewhere, someone is going to... hurt your feelings or something. Look, son, if you want more detail in your prophecy, I'm going to need more fiber in my diet."

[Androgeus]

I think the Scrapyard was just a future version of the Master messing around with everyone, including his past self

[Devonix]

You're not wrong, but reading it that way really takes the wind out of prophecy, don't you think?

"Sometime, somewhere, someone is going to... hurt your feelings or something. Look, son, if you want more detail in your prophecy, I'm going to need more fiber in my diet."

I think it's more terrifying this way. It's not an Eeeevil doctor. That would just be the same as any bad timelords. No it's an Eldritch horror made up of the cast off evil of all of his regenerations between his 12th and his true death.

[SuperPanda]

About halfway through episode 4 and my arachnophobia is not doing well - the visual effects are downright terrifying to me.

Drama is well done and compelling but as a grown man this is certainly a hide-behind-the-couch episode on effects at least. I'll have more thoughts later.

Edit: There was a lot of political commentary from the businessman who lacks empathy and wants to be president character that I could have done without - the rest of the episode was solid Doctor Who. While I feel that this was a pretty good episode this isn't one I'll be in a hurry to see again in... ever - just due to how good the effects were.

[Darth Ultron]

Well.....

Spoiler: Arachnids in the UK

Show

What a boring episode.

I guess you can say it has character stuff in it, oh and giant spiders for no reason...oh, and the Doctor is little more then a guest star. And ghost Grace pops up.

It feels like he just wrote a vague story around a couple of Agenda Buzz Topics:

1.Big companies are bad and wrong and hurt the environment and don't care
2.Business men are always wrong, even more so if they are like Trump

Though Mr. Big, Chris Noth, as definitely not Donald Trump as the gun-toting, egotistical, megalomaniac, cowardly ecological hazard-causing, hotel owner planning on running for President in 2020 is nothing short of fabulous.

*Things that Don't Make Sense:

-So why does Yas live with her family anyway? As a cop she does get a wage, right? She has to make at least enough to afford her own ''flat'', right?

*So it's done for a cheap agenda laugh, but why does Yas's mom go to work when she was told to take the day off? It's a cheap agenda way to make Discount Trump look like a jerk. The president of your company, your boss, sends you a memo that says ''stay home"....then you stay home. You don't go to work, walk up to the president of your company and be a jerk and say "I came to work anyway".

*So the hotel was built on top of a land fill that was built on top of a mine?

*So the landfill was full of chemicals....and dead spiders? So did the chemicals turn all the spiders into undead? Or the chemicals interacted with the spider bodies...and..and..somehow effected live spiders?

*The backstory time line does not quite add up. If you figure it takes at least a year or two to build the hotel, then the spider bodies and chemicals would all have to be underground for more then two years? But no giant spiders were seen during the construction of the hotel, so they must of only happened recently?

*So.....what exactly did all the giant spiders eat for days, weeks or months? Once you start talking about foot long or so spiders...what could they possibly eat?

*So...why do all the normal spiders in the UK make the ''map" to where the giant spiders are? Normal spiders don't do that sort of thing....

*This episode really cries a lot about how the spiders are just ''natural", until it suddenly needs one to act unnatural and like a monster. Do any real life spiders smash there way through wood floors to grab an ant?

*So when the Doctor and group try to leave the hotel, they find the spiders have webbed up the main doors? Wait..what...why? Normal natural spiders don't do stuff like that. And ok, sure the spiders in the hotel are acting weird....but how does weird equal human like intelligence.

*So, the hotel has like at least a dozen other doors right? Or did the super intelligent spiders web up all the doors?

*And was the giant spider web, from the natural spiders, like stronger then steel or something? Normal spider webs are not that strong.

*And spiders are attracted to the ''vibration" of rap music?

*So Mr. Big builds a ''Panic Room" in every hotel? Really?

*As part of the wacky environmental agenda of the episode the Doctor is all about doing..er...something with the spiders. The spiders are giant monsters that are killing people....but the Doctor wants to...what save the spiders? She seems to think it might be a good thing for giant people eating spiders to roam the UK and murder people.

*And this episode goes overboard that ''spiders are not evil", just ''acting weird"....very apologetic that the spiders are not bad guys, but victims.

*The Spider Scientist is just as weird, as she wants to kill all the spiders ''humanely". I wonder what way she had in mind? Fire? Poison gas? Electricity?

*So suddenly physics catches up with the big person sized spider and it can't climb walls? Odd, that physics did not stop the other spiders like it should also have done.

*And suddenly right near the end of the show the giant spider discovers physics and ''can't breathe". Odd, you'd think that would be a problem for all the giant spiders.

*The Spider Scientist is all like ''the spider is afraid of us". You'd think as a scientist she would know spiders don't ''feel" anything.

*So Discount Trump shoots the Monster that ''can't breathe".....wow, loaded subtext right there.

*So one bullet kills the spider? So did Discount Trump do like a perfect head shot to it's brain?

*So why do Ghram, or anyone, care who will be president of another country?

*They sure do skip over the ending with like ''oh the spiders are gone"......

*So, why does Yas not tell her mom..or family...about the Doctor. Yas's mom was there to see the giant spiders, so she can't be a normal zombie person. She just saw ''impossible" giant spiders....so if her daughter was to say "oh, I met an alien in a blue box" it is not ''unbelievable".

Final-D, nothing really happens. A romp with some spiders with the Doctor as a guest star.

[dps]

Well.....

Spoiler: Arachnids in the UK

Show

What a boring episode.

I guess you can say it has character stuff in it, oh and giant spiders for no reason...oh, and the Doctor is little more then a guest star. And ghost Grace pops up.

It feels like he just wrote a vague story around a couple of Agenda Buzz Topics:

1.Big companies are bad and wrong and hurt the environment and don't care
2.Business men are always wrong, even more so if they are like Trump

Though Mr. Big, Chris Noth, as definitely not Donald Trump as the gun-toting, egotistical, megalomaniac, cowardly ecological hazard-causing, hotel owner planning on running for President in 2020 is nothing short of fabulous.

*Things that Don't Make Sense:

-So why does Yas live with her family anyway? As a cop she does get a wage, right? She has to make at least enough to afford her own ''flat'', right?

*So it's done for a cheap agenda laugh, but why does Yas's mom go to work when she was told to take the day off? It's a cheap agenda way to make Discount Trump look like a jerk. The president of your company, your boss, sends you a memo that says ''stay home"....then you stay home. You don't go to work, walk up to the president of your company and be a jerk and say "I came to work anyway".

*So the hotel was built on top of a land fill that was built on top of a mine?

*So the landfill was full of chemicals....and dead spiders? So did the chemicals turn all the spiders into undead? Or the chemicals interacted with the spider bodies...and..and..somehow effected live spiders?

*The backstory time line does not quite add up. If you figure it takes at least a year or two to build the hotel, then the spider bodies and chemicals would all have to be underground for more then two years? But no giant spiders were seen during the construction of the hotel, so they must of only happened recently?

*So.....what exactly did all the giant spiders eat for days, weeks or months? Once you start talking about foot long or so spiders...what could they possibly eat?

*So...why do all the normal spiders in the UK make the ''map" to where the giant spiders are? Normal spiders don't do that sort of thing....

*This episode really cries a lot about how the spiders are just ''natural", until it suddenly needs one to act unnatural and like a monster. Do any real life spiders smash there way through wood floors to grab an ant?

*So when the Doctor and group try to leave the hotel, they find the spiders have webbed up the main doors? Wait..what...why? Normal natural spiders don't do stuff like that. And ok, sure the spiders in the hotel are acting weird....but how does weird equal human like intelligence.

*So, the hotel has like at least a dozen other doors right? Or did the super intelligent spiders web up all the doors?

*And was the giant spider web, from the natural spiders, like stronger then steel or something? Normal spider webs are not that strong.

*And spiders are attracted to the ''vibration" of rap music?

*So Mr. Big builds a ''Panic Room" in every hotel? Really?

*As part of the wacky environmental agenda of the episode the Doctor is all about doing..er...something with the spiders. The spiders are giant monsters that are killing people....but the Doctor wants to...what save the spiders? She seems to think it might be a good thing for giant people eating spiders to roam the UK and murder people.

*And this episode goes overboard that ''spiders are not evil", just ''acting weird"....very apologetic that the spiders are not bad guys, but victims.

*The Spider Scientist is just as weird, as she wants to kill all the spiders ''humanely". I wonder what way she had in mind? Fire? Poison gas? Electricity?

*So suddenly physics catches up with the big person sized spider and it can't climb walls? Odd, that physics did not stop the other spiders like it should also have done.

*And suddenly right near the end of the show the giant spider discovers physics and ''can't breathe". Odd, you'd think that would be a problem for all the giant spiders.

*The Spider Scientist is all like ''the spider is afraid of us". You'd think as a scientist she would know spiders don't ''feel" anything.

*So Discount Trump shoots the Monster that ''can't breathe".....wow, loaded subtext right there.

*So one bullet kills the spider? So did Discount Trump do like a perfect head shot to it's brain?

*So why do Ghram, or anyone, care who will be president of another country?

*They sure do skip over the ending with like ''oh the spiders are gone"......

*So, why does Yas not tell her mom..or family...about the Doctor. Yas's mom was there to see the giant spiders, so she can't be a normal zombie person. She just saw ''impossible" giant spiders....so if her daughter was to say "oh, I met an alien in a blue box" it is not ''unbelievable".

Final-D, nothing really happens. A romp with some spiders with the Doctor as a guest star.

It was OK IMO. To address your points:

Spoiler

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Yeah, the anti-big business, anti-Trump message was pretty heavy handed, but I agree Chris Noth was great as the jerk businessman.

Big cities can be quite expensive, though I don't know about Sheffield in particular, (presumably some British posters can enlighten us on that point), and rookie cops aren't necessarily highly paid.

I have no idea why Yaz's mom went to work when she was told to take the day off. And while I wouldn't fire someone for being a bit overenthusiastic, employers do generally like for their employees to follow orders. It's not like she was told to do something illegal or unethical, he just told here to take the day off. Seems like a simple enough instruction to follow.

Apparently, but I actually have to agree with not-Trump that repurposing makes sense, his company just didn't do it very well.

Apparently, yeah, the chemicals somehow interacted with the dead spiders to affect living spiders. I don't think there was any indication that there were zombie spiders.

The spiders get bigger the longer they live, so I guess they weren't giant until recently.

I don't even want to think about that.

Yeah, the map thing makes no sense.

Actually, the episode made a big deal about the spiders not acting normally. I don't think it's a fair criticism to say that it went on about them being natural.

Same answer, basically.

I hope they webbed up all the other doors, and the episode just didn't take time to establish it. The alternative is that the characters aren't smart enough to check the other exits, which might be intended for not-Trump, but probably not for the others.

Actually, for its size, spider web is one of the strongest substances on Earth. Not sure that the strength would really scale up with size, though.

Well, there's no accounting for taste. :)

He's a paranoid eccentric. I buy that he does.

The Doctor wants to "contain" them until she figures out a solution.

And yeah, the environmental message is kind of wacked, though. I mean, I agree that the spiders aren't really villains since they are presumably not sentient, but then again, a dog with rabies isn't a villain, either, but it has to be put down.

What the scientist had in mind was to trap them in the panic room and let them starve to death. Not exactly sure why she things that's particularly humane.

Your next 2 points are linked, I think. It could no longer climb because it was suffocating, not because it was to big to climb.

I feel stupid, because I don't know what the subtext you refer to is. But I do agree with him that it was a mercy killing, though I also have to agree with the Doctor that he wasn't actually trying to be merciful and probably has little if any in him.

I guess poor marksmanship is one of the few faults he doesn't have.

I'm not sure that they care, particularly, but they do know who he is. I would expect that informed, literate people in the UK knew who Donald Trump was before 2016 as well.

Yeah, definitely anti-climatic. And even worse, while the current batch of giant spiders was contained, there's no indication that the conditions that created them are going to be addressed.

I think she just doesn't want to deal with her mom right now.

Anna, Frankie, and Kevin would disagree that nothing happened. ;). I think this episode wanted to be Mummy on the Orient Express or Dinosaurs on a Spaceship, but with more of a message. It's not nearly as good as those episodes, but I definitely rate it well above a D.

EDIT: and I have a bit of fear of spiders. I probably won't sleep tonight.

[Darth Ultron]

I did not find the show all that scary. Spiders just don't get a big scare out of me.

Spoiler: Re-address

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*Living Expenses-I'm not sure about the UK....but in America at least, entry level work at like $10 an hour can get you an apartment.

*The show really, really tip toes around the ''why did the spiders grow". It's very clear it's not the labs fault...they were not using Franken- Science to make giant, smart killer spiders for the military by cross breeding them with velcroraptors or anything. And the chemicals were ''just waste". And even Mr. Big is not a bad guy...like he says, sure he built the hotel, but others decide if a site is safe and all. Really, the only villain, completely unmentioned, is the Government.

*Of course if the spiders have been living for years? That brings up the even bigger question of what were they eating for years? Once a spider is like 'tranchula' size insects are not much of a meal. We see lots of webs indoors, so they were not catching birds...

*I'm sure the physics of spider webs does not ''scale up"

Well, it's hard to say what a UK writer knows about stuff in America....
For the subtext, just Goggle "I can't Breathe", and it should be like the second result.

[zimmerwald1915]

Spoiler

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I have no idea why Yaz's mom went to work when she was told to take the day off. And while I wouldn't fire someone for being a bit overenthusiastic, employers do generally like for their employees to follow orders. It's not like she was told to do something illegal or unethical, he just told here to take the day off. Seems like a simple enough instruction to follow.

Spoiler

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Funny story, coming to work when you've been ordered not to - or indeed staying at work after you've been told to leave or after the policy is for you to leave, even if necessary work remains to be done - is trespassing. More than a fireable offense on a zero-hour contract, it can be criminal.

[SuperPanda]

Ultron has some good points and on reflection the internal logic of the episode wasn't all that strong. The VFX of the spiders had me so jittery I couldn't really tell though.

Spoiler: Re plot point discussion.

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10 $/hour and able to afford your own flat? Not in my part of the west coast. My wife and I are both working full time, both of us make more than that and we only barely cover the one bedroom we rent along with other expenses. Its a temporary setback, having moved to the states and me needing to require my teaching licence. I expect that we'll be more comfortable again come fall '19 but - it is totally believable to me that a rookie cop might not be able to afford a flat on her own.

Make my spiders grow! Mwa-hahahaha: The episode indicated that the lab was testing drugs, chemicals, and gene therapy to try to engineer super spiders so that they could be harvested for silk. After each test the spiders were killed and all test materials deposed of by a company owned by Mr. Big. Mr. Big wasn't disposing of them properly and instead was burying them in a landfill under his hotel where no one was likely to notice. Some ordinary spider-mama living on the trash heap started eating the dead spider bodies (apparently) and all the unnamed "toxic" stuff somehow (handwavium) lead to the spider clan not dying off but staying mostly dormant as they grew and grew and grew - and then apparently they ran out of food.

You are right that it doesn't make much sense - but they did give half an explanation. Well meaning mad-scientist + short cut taking business man + no one double checking anything = giant spider monster.

"Can't breath" - I think that might have been accidental - the guy flat out says "Fire and Fury" which was almost certainly the context they were aiming for. I'll say no more since that is explicitly political.

As for time to grow - there is a plot point of odd spider behavior with some of the small giant spiders going out into the world and bringing home prey. Birds, Stray cats, lots of "food" could be down there that we simply hadn't seen yet. Earlier on I expect there had been rats and before than roaches. The whole point of the spider web map (doens't make sense either) is that the mine had a bunch of underground tunnels and the big spiders were using those to hunt and then drag food back. Their presence was causing other spiders to freak out or something leading to disturbances - but there were no disturbances close to the "nest" as the spiders didn't yet have a way up from there.

My question though is - I don't think Spiders typically behave in a communal fashion. My understanding is that they are almost purely instinctual in their behavior - to the point of not being able to adapt their web geometry to new circumstances. I didn't think they cooperated with other spiders in the wild. So the room of trapped spiders wouldn't suffocate - they'd eat each other.

Perfectly enjoyable - far better than the last giant "spider" episode we had. The VFX still creep me out because spiders really creep me out - but if spiders don't spook you then nothing in this episode would be all that scary.

[dps]

Spoiler: Re-address

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*Living Expenses-I'm not sure about the UK....but in America at least, entry level work at like $10 an hour can get you an apartment.

Well, it's hard to say what a UK writer knows about stuff in America....
For the subtext, just Goggle "I can't Breathe", and it should be like the second result.

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It might get you an apartment in the US, but you'd have to live a very spartan lifestyle, even in places where the cost of living is relatively low.

I still don't get it. Second result is some song by a chick singer I've never heard of before. Was that what I was supposed to get?

[Thufir]

Spoiler

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Funny story, coming to work when you've been ordered not to - or indeed staying at work after you've been told to leave or after the policy is for you to leave, even if necessary work remains to be done - is trespassing. More than a fireable offense on a zero-hour contract, it can be criminal.

Spoiler

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Also a funny story, everyone keeps talking about Yaz's mum having the day off, but I'm pretty sure no-one in the episode said that she did. She may not have been specifically expected to be in work that day, but then I imagine hours of work for a hotel manager before the hotel opens are somewhat flexible in the first place.
In any case, given that he didn't know who she was before she told him, I think we can be pretty sure Robertson neither knew nor cared whether she was supposed to be there that day or not.

[Rodin]

On living expenses in America:

Cost of living varies dramatically based on where you live. West coast is, in general, crazy expensive. For comparison purposes:

My first apartment in college in Louisiana cost $350 per month, and many of my friends had their own apartments while doing minimum wage and/or part time work for the university. That's your standard "starving student" living, but it wasn't a big thing. My second apartment after I graduated was in Houston, and at about the same quality cost $550 a month. I was easily able to afford that on a starting wage of, yes, $10 per hour. This was about 10 years ago, but even the much nicer apartment I left last year was only charging me $800 a month. Meanwhile, my sister's much smaller apartment in California cost over $2000 per month.

All about where you live.

[LeSwordfish]

A new-hire police officer earns £19-23k a year, and the average rent+expenses in Sheffield is something like £1500 a month, or £18k a year. If Yas wants to pay taxes, go out often with friends, ever own a car, have a pet, live in a nice area of the city, or take holidays, then living with her parents is the best way to do it. I'm also not at all surprised that someone very dedicated to their job and hardworking would come into work on their day off just to check everything was ready for the big launch the next day.

I think this was the weakest episode of the series so far, and did indeed have a problem with some things just not making sense, but was still reasonably solid.

[Rodin]

Having now seen the episode, I'm inclined to agree with the criticisms of it.

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It was alright for a monster-of-the-week, but the actual plot wasn't all that compelling. And not-Trump was just a little on point and more directly political than I like from my Doctor Who. I much prefer the show to attack ideals or ways of thought (like racism from last week) rather than a specific, current political figure.

Also, for some reason it felt like Chris Noth was channeling Jerry Orbach at times. Maybe it's the eyebrows?

As someone who does not like spiders but is not outright arachnophobic, I wasn't particularly scared by the episode. The spiders are big enough to break my suspension of disbelief. I've been far more creeped out by stuff like the scarab swarm from The Mummy.

I didn't agree with the anti-gun stance in this particular case. They aren't just wild animals - they're sick wild animals that have demonstrated a willingness to attack humans. I would not be in favor of shooting a wolf because it attacked a farmer's sheep - it's a wolf, and that's what wolves do. But a rabid wolf running about a town center? You put it down.

In addition, the method given by the Doctor is stated to be more humane. How? You've locked them in a vault where they will gradually starve and then turn on one another for food. That's no more natural than giving them a quick death by shooting them, and far less humane.

I'm really starting to dig Graham. His dry sarcasm is a perfect match for the Doctor's enthusiasm, and the scene in his house was really powerful. I still don't quite have a handle on Yas and Ryan yet, although I do like all of them.

[Jeivar]

Eeeehhhh.

Last week I was grinding my teeth at horribly real hillbilly racism, now I'm cringing at my own horribly real arachnophobia.

WHY?! WHY WOULD THEY MAKE A SPIDER EPISODE??

*Ahem*

Okay, look, overall this was a decent episode, but it's a prime example of one of my main issues with the Doctor: Short-sighted self-righteousness.

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Just how many times has the Doctor caused a villain's doomsday weapon to blow up in their face? Or arranged their horrible demise in some other way? I fail to see ANY moral difference between that and a more direct approach.

I mean, I don't approve of real-life gun-waving, but when your life is in danger it's perfectly reasonable to defend it with the most efficient means possible. But the universe always makes the Doctor's point by having him/her project a nerf field that makes bad guys incapable of shooting straight, and by providing a handy non-direct way of solving the situation.

And not-Trump being an amoral cretin doesn't change the fact that putting dying, suffering animals out of their misery is generally considered a merciful thing to do.

I'm all for less violence in the world, but the Doctor's particular brand of pacifism just tends to be shallow and badly written.

[Darth Ultron]

I'm all for less violence in the world, but the Doctor's particular brand of pacifism just tends to be shallow and badly written.

It all most always has been.

Doctor Who does a good job at waving the White Flag of Pacifism around more then enough to fool people like parents, media watch dogs and the non thinking viewer. Of course, most intelligent viewers and even most kids see right through it. The Doctor is a pacifist and the worst mass murderer in all of history(and time and space).

Sure the Doctor makes a big deal about not using a gun....and then goes off to kill lots of people anyway...both directly and indirectly. and by ''people" I'm talking any creature with at least 'human like intelligence'.

Of course, the Doctor's pacifism is doomed from the start. The very idea that ''there is another way" is simply tossed out the window by the simple constants of time and storytelling. And, of course, the most obvious one: the writer(s) can't think of another way.

[huttj509]

Spoiler: About the critter origins

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The mother was from the lab. One of the dead spiders sent to be disposed of actually was only mostly dead. Had it been disposed of properly it would have been firmly killed in the process, but instead it was able to live on and keep growing since it was just dumped, as the lab experiments had extended its lifespan, and the landfill exacerbated it.

[Psyren]

Just how many times has the Doctor caused a villain's doomsday weapon to blow up in their face? Or arranged their horrible demise in some other way? I fail to see ANY moral difference between that and a more direct approach.

The difference is who pulls the trigger, and who has the intent in that moment to kill who. And that makes all the difference in the world.

In E1 for instance, "Tim Shaw" had every opportunity to just cut his losses and leave Earth unscathed. Blowing his head off with a gun before he could detonate a bunch of bombs in innocent people would have still qualified as self-defense, but that's not the Doctor's style - every second or even nano-second before that button is actually pressed, the assailant can change their minds. Actually going through with it though and pressing that button - that's irreversible and that is squarely on the villain. The fact that it didn't do what they thought it would do because of her sabotage doesn't matter, because they had plenty of warning and made the decision anyway.

[dps]

The difference is who pulls the trigger, and who has the intent in that moment to kill who. And that makes all the difference in the world.

In E1 for instance, "Tim Shaw" had every opportunity to just cut his losses and leave Earth unscathed. Blowing his head off with a gun before he could detonate a bunch of bombs in innocent people would have still qualified as self-defense, but that's not the Doctor's style - every second or even nano-second before that button is actually pressed, the assailant can change their minds. Actually going through with it though and pressing that button - that's irreversible and that is squarely on the villain. The fact that it didn't do what they thought it would do because of her sabotage doesn't matter, because they had plenty of warning and made the decision anyway.

It's not consistent, though. The Doctor is essentially always anti-gun, but is quite often perfectly willing to let companions or other allies to kill you some other way. And the villain isn't always given a way out right up to the last second.

[The Troubadour]

It's inconsistent, yes. Some of it can be attributed to different incarnations of the Doctor having slightly differing moral outlooks, but most of it is probably due to different writers having differing outlooks on how, exactly, a pacifistic character would approach different situations.

I liked the episode. I think I'd have preferred if the spiders were alien in origin or something, but it was fun - basically filler, but fun. I continue to like Whittaker's take on the Doctor, and the companions are also enjoyable.

[jwhouk]

I do get the feeling that the whole thing about guns is going to come up later in the series. (Insert "Chekov's Gun" joke here.)

[LeSwordfish]

I also suspect we haven't seen the last of

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Schmonald Schmump either. His frequent references to running for president and his final dramatic speech all seemed to be leading to something greater than "That's what America needs! Ruthless, murderous strength. Ok bye then"

[dps]

I also suspect we haven't seen the last of

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Schmonald Schmump either. His frequent references to running for president and his final dramatic speech all seemed to be leading to something greater than "That's what America needs! Ruthless, murderous strength. Ok bye then"

Oh God, I hope not. I mean,

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I liked Chris Noth's performance, but I don't want to see the character again. Only thing worse would be if "The Timeless Child" turns out to be Melody Pond.

[Foeofthelance]

I think this was the weakest episode of the series so far, and did indeed have a problem with some things just not making sense, but was still reasonably solid.

I think that's been the biggest problem with the season so far for me. Jodie Whitaker is a fantastic Doctor, they just haven't let her be her Doctor. There's been no real, big dramatic moment for her to put her imprint on the character, so the writers been relying entirely on pre-established characterization to carry her through and sometimes it doesn't ring right. The "no guns" moment in episode 2 worked much better than it did here because the characters were still in the middle of trying to figure out what was going on and letting Ryan run off to his CoD fantasy not only put him at risk, but the rest of the group. Here they pretty much already established they were going to kill the spiders anyway, but they still brought it up solely to let people say, "The Doctor doesn't like guns!" when instead they could have just left it at, "No thanks, we'd have no idea what to do with them anyway." It was a similar issue with the business man. He existed solely for the Doctor to have a jerk to argue with and to avoid blaming the scientist for the issue.

The characters are wonderful. I like the dynamic behind Graham and Ryan, though Yaz could use a few scenes to show off, whether as the group's muscle or investigator or something other than to balance the party. And again, there's no doubt that Jodie Whitaker is the Doctor. It's like the writers were given every lego in existence and can't figure out how to make anything more than four featureless walls and a flat roof.