My Little Pony XCIX: Leakier Than A Changeling Bathtub!

[DigoDragon]

You just basically tacitly said one-third of the population shouldn't be trusted to become rulers because they have one particular sort of magic.

Throughout the show's run, we've had about 5 unicorn villains threaten Equestria, 1 pegasus, and no earth ponies. Maybe having a magical appendage sit that close to the brain isn't such a great idea.

[zimmerwald1915]

You just basically tacitly said one-third of the population shouldn't be trusted to become rulers because they have one particular sort of magic.

Which is true.

[Schismatic]

You just basically tacitly said one-third of the population shouldn't be trusted to become rulers because they have one particular sort of magic.

That's a dangerous line of thinking, right there. Not only is that a tacit suggestion that unicorn's form of magic is a crutch or a hinderance (or dangerously corrupting) and that Earth ponies don't have their own magic and are "mundane" like humans, but it's also falling into the "Batman is better because he doesn't have superpowers" syndrome.

That's not really the argument I'm making. More so her character development would have been ..... less erratic. See, I buy Cheerilee as the best possible pony she can be by teaching fillies and colts. Whereas Twilight's capabilities and actual skills and means are brought into question so often.

From Pinkie's "It was under E~~~" from episode 2 to enchanting Smartypants and basically creating an envy epidemic simply to manufacture a friendship problem.

Her magic creates more problems than can be organically solved ... and not only that, she's the protagonist of the show. The pony people are meant to project upon. Earth ponies having an esoteric magic at the core of themselves allows for spurious or tentative expressions of it while keeping it based on an easily digestible level interaction with the world. Twilight as a dedicated science mare rather than 'amazing mage, but not really, although kind of, sort of, ehhh...' doesn't exactly sell her as a master of her own destiny.

Whatever growth in actual power has been handled at best as if a checklist as with Boast Busters, but lacking any attempt to ground her capabilities in stone since which makes it really problematic.

That and let's never forget that this is a show for kids to watch withan emphasis of being a good friend, and learning from one's mistakes, and a character-drama when one does not. Having Twilight be a mare dedicated to a tangible idea of power (the powerof knowledge and wit) is probably a better rolemodel than one that simply has an esoteric and often contradictory ideaof her possible engagement with the world around her.

Plus it would have been a better message to kids of a science mare overcoming challenges through reason, wit, creativity and intellect as opposed to, you know, magic. In the end, life is going to make us feel more like an Earth pony than a unicorn ... life is going to feel rough, not magical. Having a character circumvent that through level-headed displays of power and wit and being seen as worthy of leadership because of it... Well that's a hopeful message that one can get behind.

It's also an archetype that is conspicuously missing from the mane 6. Sure, Twilight doubles as the 'smart one' ... but conflating that specifically with magic is kind of bad.

I wouldn't mind somuch even ifshe were a unicorn, so long as magic seemed secondary to her sheer intellect alone. Which does display itself every so often ... but not enough. Don't get me wrong, I still love her character to bits ... but theen again itwould have been equally fine if she were not the lead pony ofthe Mane 6. In a lot of ways, she might have even been 'funner' if she weren't.That she were more the eccentric friend of another lead pony.

Basically the Doc Brown to Marty McFly. The lovable 'weird science' kook that lives in the library who, despite her weird experiments and various fascinations, turns out to be this marvelous friend that one would be lesser for not knowing if one simply judged a bookhorse by its cover.

As much as I love Twilight, I feel like her character needed more mystique than being lead pony would have allowed. Her eccentricity, her occasional antipathy to socializing (booksortcation, etc), and her OCD might have been best played off as providing weight to her relative disappearance from the screen as opposed to its direct examination.

[b_jonas]

Well Celestia only beat Discord and Sombra with Luna by her side,

Oh wow! I didn't know that about Sombra's defeat, but indeed S3 E1 shows that both Princess Celestia and Princess Luna were there.

You just basically tacitly said one-third of the population shouldn't be trusted to become rulers because they have one particular sort of magic.

Hehe. That's true, though as a lich who wants to rule the world, you have special interest to remind people of that.

Throughout the show's run, we've had about 5 unicorn villains threaten Equestria, 1 pegasus, and no earth ponies.

Hmm. I wonder which unicorn villains exactly are you counting here. King Sombra, Tempest Shadow, Starlight Glimmer, the evil sorcerer with the memory stone, Sunset Shimmer? Would Flim and Fam count as threatening Equestria? Pinkie might count Zesty Gourmand as threatening Equestria.

[Schismatic]

Hmm. I wonder which unicorn villains exactly are you counting here. Starlight Glimmer, the evil sorcerer with the memory stone, Sunset Shimmer? Would Flim and Fam count as threatening Equestria?

Flim and Flam could be argued as possible heroes of Equestria. In the alternate dimension Flim and Flam must have defeated various threats to Equestria, and have transformed Ponyville into an industrialized city in a matter of years. Give or takea few decades, they might even have a space exploration program (barring flinging Luna at the Moon)...

If that's the case, basic rule-based utilitarianism applies. Twilight shouldn't try to seek her special cutie mark connection and Starlight was right.

Speaking of actual villain count for unicorns;

Trixie - Psychotic episode leading to the hostile occupation of Ponyville and multiple acts of kidnapping.

Starlight - Started a Cutie Mark Cult, though arguably her biggest sin was trying to rob a group of ponies of their fond memories and mutual history given the cult was arguably self-elective. It's a bit hard to levy the debt of trying to destroy Equestria given that wasn't actually her goal.

In fact, being confronted by her future actions is one of the things that actually gets to her.

Sunset - Various war crimes (planned use of child soldiers, plotting an invasion and occupation of Equestria).

Flim and Flam - Multiple counts of fraud.

Tempest - Arguably high treason. Multiple war crimes (targetting of civilians for slaughter, cruel and unusual punishment of civilians during an occupation, etc)

Unicorns are uniquely frightening ponies. Not going to include Sombra because technically not a member of the Three Tribes.

Special mentions:

Starswirl - Three acts of exile and arguably crimes against humanity of sending three sirens to the 'human' world of wherever Equestria Girls takes place. Multiple acts of conspiracy, consorting with the trusted aides of the three tribes of the Earth ponies, Pegasi and Unicorns to establish a bloodless secession and seat the Alicorn princesses as rulers of a new land of Equestria. One count of treason & multiple counts of espionage against the unicorn Regent Princess Platinum.

Twilight Sparkle - Complicit in magical experiments upon a sapient creature without consent (unhatched dragon egg).

Chancellor Neighsay - Two counts of malfeasance.

Rarity - Psychotic episode leading to multiple counts of vandalism and misappropriation of property.

[zimmerwald1915]

Flim and Flam could be argued as possible heroes of Equestria. In the alternate dimension Flim and Flam must have defeated various threats to Equestria, and have transformed Ponyville into an industrialized city in a matter of years.

Primitive accumulation is hardly "heroic." Indeed, its a vampiric process.

[Schismatic]

Primitive accumulation is hardly "heroic." Indeed, its a vampiric process.

Depends on the distribution of the benefits of productive forces. After all, if you have pharmalab producing drugs at a profit it matters little that some shareholders and corporate officers are making more money than God if a more primitive industrial base couldn't supply those drugs at a cheaper price through public ownership.

That and there's nothing stopping a revolution taking it back ...

[zimmerwald1915]

That and there's nothing stopping a revolution taking it back ...

Don't be daft. Revolutions don't happen, and certainly don't succeed.

[DigoDragon]

Hmm. I wonder which unicorn villains exactly are you counting here.

Unicorn villains that were threats on a national or greater scale--

• King Sombra
• Sunset Shimmer
• Starlight Glimmer
• Tempest Shadow
• Stygian

[Forum Explorer]

Unicorn villains that were threats on a national or greater scale--

• King Sombra
• Sunset Shimmer
• Starlight Glimmer
• Tempest Shadow
• Stygian

I disagree with Sunset Shimmer being on that list. Her plan was dumb and shouldn't work. Even if it could work, she never reached the point where it was in the process of working. Her threat was strictly small town as a result.

[Aotrs Commander]

Unicorn villains that were threats on a national or greater scale--

• Sunset Shimmer

Eeeehh... Not really sure that Sunset's cunning plan of using less than a hundred or two if that mindless zombie teenagers, even in the form of ponies, would in reality be that much of a threat, to be honest. Sunset herself would probably have been more dangerous, if only because she had the Element of Magic.

Hehe. That's true, though as a lich who wants to rule the world, you have special interest to remind people of that.

Warning: Bleakbane Rant Incoming...

My alignment is - for once - utterly irrelevant. If I had, instead, chosen to become a Epic-level Lawful Good Mage-Paladin (assuming, I dunno, the Bleak Despair wormhole had opened instead to UCDR space instead or something), would that also exclude me from being allowed to be in charge of anything, because I have abilities others don't?

That sort of thing leads directly to metitocratic inverted snobbery. One of humanity's failings in the modern age is the apparent inability to accept that, hey, you know what? Sometimes people are just better at stuff than other people, and sometimes just because they got lucky in genetics or circumstance¹ (and that sometimes, "hard work" can't close that gap²). Life ain't fair; but that doesn't mean the people who get lucky shouldn't actually be discriminated against. It leads to Cadmus or Friends of Humanity thinking - how dare someone have abilities I can't have! They should suffer punitive measures because they have those things I don't!

Or, FAR worse, I just realised we're veering towards labelling unicorns as the X-Men. Experiment, paraphrasing what Schismatic said?

Unicorns Mutants are uniquely frightening ponies people. Twilight Xavier shouldn't try to seek her special cutie mark connection use his special talents and Starlight Bolivar Trask was right.

Sound reasonable?



(And - again - all of this based on the fact that Earth ponies are somehow the lesser of the tribes because their magic isn't as immediately prominent, which manages to both villify unicorns and insult earth ponies in the same breath.)



Granted, I could also accuse the show of the same problem of going to unicorns as the easy solution because their magic is most overt - but then again, Cosey Glow is fantastic aversion to that, especially as you can point out that she got so close to victory that the Magic Tree actually had to finally get off it's lazy arse and intervene directly.



¹And Lichemaster forfend the idea that some people might be better people than others (I mean, come on, that's not a difficult concept - you are literally having a conversation with someone who cheerfully admits he probably barely qualifies as aa person in the looset sense at all...); after all, that might mean said people might actually have to try to better themselves instead of being content to drag everyone else back into the mire of mediocrity - which was Starlight's dreadful idea. (Even frigging Syndrome was more reasonable; honestly, even had the dude not gone about it in the way he did, dragging everyone up to the same level is a pretty noble goal, actually.)

²Shut up, Naruto, you have an obscene number of advantages over everyone else. No, the fact that you had a crappy childhood doesn't count, it just slowed you down from a standing start to be light-years ahead of everyone else.

[Schismatic]

Don't be daft. Revolutions don't happen, and certainly don't succeed.

That's true, that's even Marxist on its own ... but then again can we take quiet solace in the idea that capitalist enterprise, whether in part or whole, is inevitably zero sum once the productive forces of a body-politic themselves can no longer justify a suitably low level lateral benefit (or a suitably high enough level of exploitation) of others?

That ultimately it is merely a case of dialectical materialism, and that it inevitably trumps the wholly speculative idea of capitalism itself?

We could make the argument that Flim and Flam's industrialization, no matter how exploitative, has created technological milestones that will benefit pony society eventually if only after the inevitable collapse of its productive forces rather than a hypothetically persistent low-technological state of mere cottage industry regardless of however egalitarian as it may be in that instant?

Unicorn villains that were threats on a national or greater scale--

• King Sombra
• Sunset Shimmer
• Starlight Glimmer
• Tempest Shadow
• Stygian

Does Sombra count given he's technically not actually a unicorn? Stygian I get, but why not Trixie? She basically imprisoned the majority of the EoH holders and occupy the entire town of Ponyville.

[zimmerwald1915]

That's true, that's even Marxist on its own ... but then again can we take quiet solace in the idea that capitalist enterprise, whether in part or whole, is inevitably zero sum once the productive forces of a body-politic themselves can no longer justify a suitably low level lateral benefit (or a suitably high enough level of exploitation) of others?

That ultimately it is merely a case of dialectical materialism, and that it inevitably trumps the wholly speculative idea of capitalism itself?

We could make the argument that Flim and Flam's industrialization, no matter how exploitative, has created technological milestones that will benefit pony society eventually if only after the inevitable collapse of its productive forces rather than a hypothetically persistent low-technological state of mere cottage industry regardless of however egalitarian as it may be in that instant?

There are a number of problems here, most founded on the idea that we can glean any meaningful information about a whole society's development from a couple seconds of animation. There's nothing to say F&F did develop the productive forces, for example.

But the biggest assumption here is one I've already debunked: that capitalism is transitory and will be superceded by something else. It is not. It is, rather, the final system, the system which destroys and consumes the world and every force in it that could supercede itself. What madman would try to build a new society out of a blighted, depopulated Hellscape? What social force could succeed?

[Forum Explorer]

We could make the argument that Flim and Flam's industrialization, no matter how exploitative, has created technological milestones that will benefit pony society eventually if only after the inevitable collapse of its productive forces rather than a hypothetically persistent low-technological state of mere cottage industry regardless of however egalitarian as it may be in that instant?

You could make the argument, but I would disagree with it. I mean, what does industrialization actually give Equestria?

-Wealth? No, the money is pretty much only in the FF brother's hooves, besides most of the other ponies seem to be doing fine financially.
-Time? Not really, ponies already have a surplus of time. Applejack is by far the busiest of the Mane 6, and she still has time to go on adventures all around Equestria.
-Equality? Nope, Earth Ponies get a lot of trash talk from the fandom, but they really do seem to already be equal to pegasi and unicorns, both magically and culturally.
-More jobs? Possible, but likely the opposite would occur with machines removing jobs.
-More stuff? Yes. They would explicitly have more stuff.

And in return they suffer massive ecological damages. That's not as bad for ponies since they have magical powers to control the environment, but it's still typically much harder to deal with. Though they might actually have to spend more time in fixing the environment and thus actually get a net loss in time as a result.

I feel it's important to remind you that ponies are not humans. They don't need industrialization like we did. They have the magic and physical abilities to just create a high class society without any of that.

And honestly, I feel like I can almost always say that highly exploitative industry is a bad thing. Whatever benefits it brings often do not outweigh the gains, or could still be gained with a less exploitative method.

[DigoDragon]

I disagree with Sunset Shimmer being on that list.

Eeeehh... Not really sure that Sunset's cunning plan of using less than a hundred or two if that mindless zombie teenagers

Do not dismiss the fact that Sunset did mind-control some of the adults who work at the school. She could collect more adults under her army for the invasion (to say nothing on the possibility of mind controlling ponies once she reached Equestria).

Does Sombra count given he's technically not actually a unicorn?

Depends if you count comics as canon or not. I'm just sticking to TV and Movies for my list, which considers Sombra a unicorn.

Stygian I get, but why not Trixie? She basically imprisoned the majority of the EoH holders and occupy the entire town of Ponyville.

She was a threat to the town of Ponyville, but I didn't feel that she reached a national level. Such an argument I suppose could be made for it, which would bring the list up to six.

[Schismatic]

That sort of thing leads directly to metitocratic inverted snobbery. One of humanity's failings in the modern age is the apparent inability to accept that, hey, you know what? Sometimes people are just better at stuff than other people, and sometimes just because they got lucky in genetics or circumstance¹ (and that sometimes, "hard work" can't close that gap²). Life ain't fair; but that doesn't mean the people who get lucky shouldn't actually be discriminated against. It leads to Cadmus or Friends of Humanity thinking - how dare someone have abilities I can't have! They should suffer punitive measures because they have those things I don't!

Pretty sure that's nothing of what I wrote. Cheerilee is prvably a better teacher than Twilight. Horn or no horn. Cheerilee getting the funding to improve her empirically better school is precisely meritocratic. She literally teaches foals to understand internal combustion enginery and how mechanics works in a couple of days. Clearly she's the best teacher in Equestria.

She's shown to have a wide knowledge of various academic disciplines, she keeps a firm but fair hoof, she's dedicated beyond all else and clearly holds the respect of her pupils.

Just imagine if Cosy Glow was in her school rather than a certain other pony's ....?

Or, FAR worse, I just realised we're veering towards labelling unicorns as the X-Men. Experiment, paraphrasing what Schismatic said?

Unicorns Mutants are uniquely frightening ponies people. Twilight Xavier shouldn't try to seek her special cutie mark connection use his special talents and Starlight Bolivar Trask was right.

Sound reasonable?

Sounds entirely reasonable to me. After all, quite clearly unicorns require different approach to their education and you perhaps should outlaw certain types of magic given, you know, it could destroy Equestria ...of steal cutie marks ... Clearly there's magic they shouldn't be learning. In the same way chemistry teachers don't teach kids how to make high explosives or crystal meth. I mean I'm sure there's a handful of teachers that have, but then again I imagine they're on some person's radar for good reason.

Like for instance teleportation ... would we necessarily allow people to simply teleport everywhere if they had the ability?

Pegasi weather control. Farmers don't own weather, so what happens if a Pegasi extorts a farmer for money otherwise they'll guarantee it won't rain on their crops after the sowing period? Is that resonable use of magic?

Never mind the security risks of simply allowing something like free range teleports by any person who could do so ... How about explsive death beams at a moment's notice? Time travel? Clearly there's things we'd probably outlaw to all but the most vetted individuals for the sake of public safety, and breaching those laws would carry heavy penalties by necessity. Also, yes ... I would crack down on Xavier's School. Because a school housing stealth aircraft and vigilante groups isn't exactly a school. It's a militia front... and given that I would not like to creatie a potential second Weimar Republic by allowing such things, I'd be deeply opposed to any pretense pretending that's okay.

(And - again - all of this based on the fact that Earth ponies are somehow the lesser of the tribes because their magic isn't as immediately prominent, which manages to both villify unicorns and insult earth ponies in the same breath.)

???

Where? I made the argument why I think Twilight would have been better if she were an Earth pny precisely because their magic is more grounded, and because having a science mare become an alicorn because of that more grounded use of their abilities, their capacty to reason, and their knowledge base, making it a better metric for a decision of their worthiness of leadership. That it would have been cooler if Twilight was full science mare, whose raw intellect, wit and personal bravery decided their alicorness as opposed to some esoteric or often contradictory 'power level' of her magical ability.

A magical ability that makes it diffficult to ascertain just how capable she is interacting with the world.

If she were an Earth pony without the capacity for horn blasts, or teleportation, or simply freezing everypony still on the spot, it would help nail down a definite degree of world interaction that she has to navigate ... andon the basis of that easily digestible idea of her capabilities, give us a deeper appreciation of why she's alicorn material.

That's all I said.

That and I think it's a more hopeful message to younger viewers.

[zimmerwald1915]

give us a deeper appreciation of why she's alicorn material.

Assumes that she is. She is not, and the reasons why are grounded in her character. She has never earned a thing in her life, but been the beneficiary of Royal patronage, nepotism, and good luck.

[Schismatic]

Assumes that she is. She is not, and the reasons why are grounded in her character. She has never earned a thing in her life, but been the beneficiary of Royal patronage, nepotism, and good luck.

Pretty much ... I mean I Likethe character barring some kind of really misplaced or weird disjointedness between her and the plot ... I think the whole 'Celestia welfare' (which is kind of creepy on its own) might have been utterly avoided if she were an Earth pony whowas obviously a skilled researcher and engineer or scientist, or something as if a scientific advisor ... something. A job detail of some kind.

Like her brother was in the royal guard ... something like that. Not jut a 'student' ... somepony that actively contributed her intelligence in a direct and material fashion.

It would also help Canterlot not just feel like a place of bourgeoisie-corns, but actually has a reason to be beyond a pleasure city.

[b_jonas]

I disagree with Sunset Shimmer being on that list. Her plan was dumb and shouldn't work. Even if it could work, she never reached the point where it was in the process of working. Her threat was strictly small town as a result.

That was her first plan, in S5 E1. It's her second plan in S5 E25 that was really dangerous, when she used Starswirl's time travel spell to change the history of Equestria.

[Forum Explorer]

Do not dismiss the fact that Sunset did mind-control some of the adults who work at the school. She could collect more adults under her army for the invasion (to say nothing on the possibility of mind controlling ponies once she reached Equestria).




She was a threat to the town of Ponyville, but I didn't feel that she reached a national level. Such an argument I suppose could be made for it, which would bring the list up to six.

And? Brainwashed adults aren't much more useful then brainwashed teenagers when it comes to fighting. And you are assuming she actually could mind control more then what was seen. From what she actually did and had, she basically had a mob. A threat to a small town maybe, but not any more then that.


No, I agree with that. Trixie was pretty small time in the end.

That was her first plan, in S5 E1. It's her second plan in S5 E25 that was really dangerous, when she used Starswirl's time travel spell to change the history of Equestria.

That's Starlight Glimmer, who is literally the worst unicorn. It's like they took all the worst qualities of Twilight and Sunset, fused them into one pony, added a few more flaws, forgot to add any redeeming qualities, and then slapped a poor paint job on it and made it a close friend of the Mane 6 just because.

[Schismatic]

That's Starlight Glimmer, who is literally the worst unicorn. It's like they took all the worst qualities of Twilight and Sunset, fused them into one pony, added a few more flaws, forgot to add any redeeming qualities, and then slapped a poor paint job on it and made it a close friend of the Mane 6 just because.

Starlight's not that bad. Decent design, decent colour palette, has some legitimately funny lines, and when she annunces her presence atop the flight school she is chewing the scenery. Every second you pause that villainous exposition just dribbles 60s Batman villain cheese. Every second some over the top, menacing expression. Plus, you know ... one of the few villains that weren't just hit by deus ex harmony.

[DigoDragon]

And? Brainwashed adults aren't much more useful then brainwashed teenagers when it comes to fighting. And you are assuming she actually could mind control more then what was seen. From what she actually did and had, she basically had a mob. A threat to a small town maybe, but not any more then that.

Nothing says she couldn't brainwash more people, or promote more to demon status. We just don't find out either way because Twilight stopped her with friendship. On that note, Equestria's defenses outside the Mane6 are really lacking.

[zimmerwald1915]

Nothing says she couldn't brainwash more people, or promote more to demon status. We just don't find out either way because Twilight stopped her with friendship. On that note, Equestria's defenses outside the Mane6 are really lacking.

Unless you're a small child. Then the whole Royal Guard shows up to detain you.

And can even kind of manage it.

[Schismatic]

Unless you're a small child. Then the whole Royal Guard shows up to detain you.

And can even kind of manage it.

Ehhh ... kind of bungled the prison system though. Sticking two known associates like that right next to eachother? Asking for trouble. Tartarus, the Moon, turned into a garden ornament, or banishment from their plane of existence.

I think their penal code is less a statement of its draconian nature, and has more to do about not having suitable guards to detain criminals in the first place.

[Forum Explorer]

Starlight's not that bad. Decent design, decent colour palette, has some legitimately funny lines, and when she annunces her presence atop the flight school she is chewing the scenery. Every second you pause that villainous exposition just dribbles 60s Batman villain cheese. Every second some over the top, menacing expression. Plus, you know ... one of the few villains that weren't just hit by deus ex harmony.

Can you give me a unicorn character who is worse? I'm being literal here, I can't think of any. Mind you Starlight's presence managed to get me to stop watching the show in Season 6, so maybe they came up with someone even worse later.

As a villain she had some major flaws in:

1. Being inexplicably powerful (still a problem)
2. Having a garbage motivation
3. Being yet another Twilight expy. If you count Trixie (some do, others don't), she was the fourth 'Twilight Unicorn'

Her villain finale was pretty much trash too. The entire first half of it is basically irrelevant, and the second half is Starlight explaining her complete trash fire of a back story.

Nothing says she couldn't brainwash more people, or promote more to demon status. We just don't find out either way because Twilight stopped her with friendship. On that note, Equestria's defenses outside the Mane6 are really lacking.

Sure. But that's all an assumption. Maybe she had the potential to reach a national threat, but she never got close to that stage. And it's just as fair to say that there is nothing saying that she could brainwash more people or promote more to demon status.

[Aotrs Commander]

Nothing says she couldn't brainwash more people, or promote more to demon status.

Except that if she could do that, why even bother to go through the portal, when she could just run outside into the Crystal Empire immediately after swiping the Element of Magic and start brainwashing there and then? She either couildn't (which means we're back to "small zombie strike force" or she's so bad at being villain she didn't think of that - either of which make her rather less of a threat than, say, Cosey Glow.

[Pi Pie]

Replying to Schismatic on whether Twilight would be better as a science earth pony.

I don't think an earth pony would work for Twilight as the world is written. The world has a lot of magic inherent to it not the least of which is the Magic of Friendship. Without the rainbow friendship cannon, a lot of the show doesn't work.

Also take Discord for example. Even if Twilight could develop mechanical devices up to human technology instantly, nuclear power, lasers, carbon nanotubes, etc. none of that would do anything against Discord.

There could be a different show with Twilight as an Earth Pony, but that show would be significantly different from My Little Pony Friendship is Magic.


Also, when did Cherilee teach the class about internal combustion engines? They had the derby racers but those were gravity powered, not engine. And even then, there was no teaching. She just told the class to make race cars (out of massive blocks of wood) with guardians, and they did so. It is impressive that ponies could carve cars out of wood in 1-2 days with hooves, something that would push the limits of a 5-axis CNC mill, but Cheerilee doesn't deserve credit for that.

[Forum Explorer]

Replying to Schismatic on whether Twilight would be better as a science earth pony.

I don't think an earth pony would work for Twilight as the world is written. The world has a lot of magic inherent to it not the least of which is the Magic of Friendship. Without the rainbow friendship cannon, a lot of the show doesn't work.

Also take Discord for example. Even if Twilight could develop mechanical devices up to human technology instantly, nuclear power, lasers, carbon nanotubes, etc. none of that would do anything against Discord.

There could be a different show with Twilight as an Earth Pony, but that show would be significantly different from My Little Pony Friendship is Magic.

None of that requires being a unicorn though. Applejack and Pinkie can both use their elements just fine, and the Magic of friendship could still work for Twilight as an Earth Pony.

[zimmerwald1915]

Y'know, we have a test for this. Consider EqG Twilight. Bereft of unicorn magic. Mechanical wiz. And much less interesting that FiM Twilight, either pre- or post-season 4. Certainly nowhere near fit to be the protagonist - as evidenced by Sunset.

[Schismatic]

Can you give me a unicorn character who is worse? I'm being literal here, I can't think of any. Mind you Starlight's presence managed to get me to stop watching the show in Season 6, so maybe they came up with someone even worse later.

Easily Sunset Shimmer was a worse villain.

As a villain she had some major flaws in:

1. Being inexplicably powerful (still a problem)
2. Having a garbage motivation
3. Being yet another Twilight expy. If you count Trixie (some do, others don't), she was the fourth 'Twilight Unicorn'

Her villain finale was pretty much trash too. The entire first half of it is basically irrelevant, and the second half is Starlight explaining her complete trash fire of a back story.

What? As opposed to half of the villains who simply exist? For starters;

1: Twilight is inexplicably powerful. To date there hasn't actually been a hard idea of what she can actually do. Which is why it's all the more rewarding when she can't simply rely on her magic to get her out of scrapes.

2: Ehhh ... I'd be pretty pissed off with someone who ruined my social experiment. Particularly if I was under the illusion that it worked. After all, the reason why she decides to attack Twilight isn't because of her backstory, it's because Twilight ruined what she thought was the ideal society she created.

Moreover, that fight scene between her and Twilight is glorious ... what are you talking about? It's humourous, nakedly malevolent, the threat is certifiably real, and is literally one of the few times that the Elements of Harmony simply wouldn't have worked.

3: I agree, if the argument is merely 'too many god damn unicorns' ... though I will confess that I actually like Trixie.

Replying to Schismatic on whether Twilight would be better as a science earth pony.

I don't think an earth pony would work for Twilight as the world is written. The world has a lot of magic inherent to it not the least of which is the Magic of Friendship. Without the rainbow friendship cannon, a lot of the show doesn't work.

Also take Discord for example. Even if Twilight could develop mechanical devices up to human technology instantly, nuclear power, lasers, carbon nanotubes, etc. none of that would do anything against Discord.

There could be a different show with Twilight as an Earth Pony, but that show would be significantly different from My Little Pony Friendship is Magic.

Why not? Beating him to begin with was a matter of convenience. That ultimately if he wished to he simply could have tossed any pony into a wormhole, and sans that pony the EoH wouldn't have worked regardless. Relying on magic is in essence kind of lazy. For an egotistical creature like Discord, Discord exists not simply to defeat his rivals, but to make them personally realize he has beaten them.

Having Twilight trick him and beat him at his own game is clearly a better idea.

Twilight is at her best when she is relying on her wit, bravery, and raw intellect. For example, managing to get the alicorn amulet from Trixie. The idea that practical stage effects can disarm her opponent when her 'magic' would fail to is the type of Twilight we actually want to see.

Moreover, one could argue that Discord wasn't legitimately beaten by magic, but beaten by himself once Fluttershy had manipulated him to recognize that hecould have so much more ifhe was willing to compromise his worst nature and chance a form of happiness he had never truly experience but might be something a lot more rewarding than simply satiating his worst impulses. It worked better than the Elements of Harmony zapping him to stone precisely because Fluttershy had tricked him.

Discord being Discord was truly beaten precisely because Fluttershy had seen through his mind games, the real fight that Discord had wanted to win. Simply using his powers at that point would have been common thuggery, and that's clearly not what he wanted.

Also, when did Cherilee teach the class about internal combustion engines? They had the derby racers but those were gravity powered, not engine. And even then, there was no teaching. She just told the class to make race cars (out of massive blocks of wood) with guardians, and they did so. It is impressive that ponies could carve cars out of wood in 1-2 days with hooves, something that would push the limits of a 5-axis CNC mill, but Cheerilee doesn't deserve credit for that.

Clearly they're chain or driveshaft driven, however. Plus I was under the illusion that they called it 'Derby Racers' after the horse racing events in England and the U.S. 'The Derby' was a horse racing event historically held in Epsom Downs in England, however 'Derby Races' were then taken up in places like Kentucky and elewhere throughout the 19th century.