Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

[deuterio12]

I would read that.

And then there would be newtype psionic Kore that's actually humble and wants to link the minds of everybody in the Maze of Many so they can understand each other and collaborate for mutual benefit, so the other Kores agree to gank him.

[Agi Hammerthief]

Teenager? I though she is/was married?

is (married) now.

the comic went online in 2005ish and the story has been plotted out start to finish way back afik.

I don’t know Ellis age, but the dungeons feel like what an unexperienced (teenage) DM might cobble together to troll players; the „quality“ of DMing my high school classmates displayed when they talked about D&D (which put me off D&D for years)

[John Cribati]

So if you're an adventurer who's still walking and breathing, you should have a nice set of magic items.

That's. Actually my point. Because, uh, we haven't exactly met too many adventurers who are still kicking.

Aside from the GAP themselves, we know of 2 people who have actually survived to "high" level.
Saral Caine found the Axe of Prissan somewhere.
Goblinslayer had his half-tree template and some tenuous connection to the (honestly kinda *scrubbed*) auto-reload crossbows mayne he made them himself out of his tree half for all we know.

Both of them were considered as high-level adventurers but were still handily defeated by level 2-3 Goblins who got a little lucky (Saral Caine died in 2 hits. Critical or not, that still speaks to a relatively low HP for a fighter. Meanwhile all Goblinslayer did to show his level was cast all of a single first-level spell. He didn't even seem to have enough BaB to get 2 attacks in a round.

[deuterio12]

Axes have x3 crit mods, a lucky crit from them can indeed hurt a lot even high-level characters. And that being a paladin axe probably has +Texas damage against evil opponents.

Captain gobslayer got impaled through his chest and was still able to remain not only alive but also awake even if stuck in place so he was pretty durable if nothing else. It took Min"I can duel Balors"Max and a lot of napalm (which he was probably vulnerable to being half-tree) to take him out. And had a pretty loaded trophy room. Also he was rich enough to afford healing potions every day to keep Kin healthy after their "sessions". Those things are not cheap (plus it means somebody's mass-producing those potions on Brassmoon).

And as for other adventurers, well the starting goblin warcamp had that memorial for all their previous chiefs that got gibbed by adventurers. Meaning said adventurers survived and collected whatever magic loot they were keeping at the time and went on to have other adventures.

Considering that's supposed to be your average goblin warcamp and that goblins aren't particularly long-lived (in particular when compared to stuff like dwarves and elves), then it follows that there should still be a significant number of adventurers that at least took out a goblin warcamp.

But just like Minmax can fight a Balor head on and walk away on his feet, the protagonist goblin adventuring team's been in a pretty lucky streak, their dice are clearly pretty hot.

[Draconi Redfir]

the maze of many allows anybody to save-load scum until they walk out with their own magic bling (unless some random psion psycho gets there but that's the exception rather than the rule).

You act as if the maze of many is common knowledge though, that anyone who knows anything knows about existence. Keep in mind this is a world where the most efficient form of communication is people physically carrying paper around. Not every person has access to a message spell, not everyone wanders the world, and not everyone knows about this giant sword that has an entire dungeon in it. It'd be a rumor or myth at best, something people tell stories about but don't actually believe is real.

Plus it's not like it's a free "Walk in walk out" system. You still need to go through all those trials and combats, you'll still spend hours almost dying, getting beat up, and probably loosing a friend or two along the way. If you reach the end but are the only survivor of your group, then sure you could just off yourself and re-start again (If you can even successfully build up the courage to do that), but you'd have no idea when or if you'd reach the exit again, or if the outcome would even be any different. After all you've been through, you may just want to get the heck out just to end it all. If and when you DO walk out, you'd have some magic stuff sure. You'd also have dozens of combat and trap scars, probably missing a friend or two, and a whooolee whopping load of PTSD from the horrors you've seen in there.

A lot of people probably aren't willing to risk it, even if they DO know about that. They may not even be aware the Maze resets at all!

[Ibrinar]

About losing team members if you know about the reset mechanic each member entering alone might be the safest life wise. (Unless there isn't any possibility of them ever managing it solo which might be possible.) Although I suppose that really raises the chance of the successful run being barely a victory and coming out with lost limbs or something.

Anyway about kore and magic items I don't think he is the dungeon type, probably preferring to slaughter the free roaming evil first. But yeah the basic goblin village had some loot too and he probably slaughtered a few of these. But considering how extreme he is about evil I don't think refusing to use loot coming from monsters out of character. (Also loot isn't necessarily the equipment type he prefers, maybe he just never found a pair of magical hand axes and doesn't want to switch *shrugs*.) Btw about greater magic weapon as argument for his axes being non magic, the only thing not stacking is a pure enhancement bonus if I am understanding it right? Couldn't it have other magic properties that stack? I don't think they do just theoretically.

[Agi Hammerthief]

Couldn't it have other magic properties that stack? I don't think they do just theoretically.

most bonusses raise the price of a weapon exponentially, so it can be worth to stick with the minimum enhancement bonus of +1 and invest omly in other magical properties to get more enhancement from a spell for serious encounters.

[Vinyadan]

I wonder if Kore has something to do with the wording for "tower shield" in the SRD:

Shield, Tower

This massive wooden shield is nearly as tall as you are. In most situations, it provides the indicated shield bonus to your AC. However, you can instead use it as total cover, though you must give up your attacks to do so. The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting the shield you are holding. You cannot bash with a tower shield, nor can you use your shield hand for anything else.

When employing a tower shield in combat, you take a -2 penalty on attack rolls because of the shield’s encumbrance.

The wording is really vague, so it could mean a lot of things. Total cover would make you immune from all melee, no matter where the blows are coming from, because D&D 3.5 doesn't have facing rules. It would also mean that you are out of sight, which some say would mean that your shield is out of sight too, which means invisibility.

Kore's setup would automatise most of the shield's function and allow the user to attack anyway. But it's also one way to make sense of the total cover rule.

A fairly long FAQ was released later to explain how things really worked and adding facing and conditions.

[Traab]

A joke item? Even ignoring infinite napalm, infinite fresh water or infinite booze of your choice is something people in the real world would pay a lot for. It may be something that keeps a desert city going. Certainly a nice circumstancial bonus for any diplomacy checks. As for the shield, think of it more like a tactical nuke. Equip it on some low level grunt, throw them at the enemy army, watch the fireworks go off from a safe distance.

Did Kin have levels back then? Either way, even with limitations, no-save domination isn't a light effect, and that it demands strong magic to remove is just more evidence it's a pretty strong item itself.

Besides the magic sword, there were mass-produced magic crossbows enough to equip a small army as pointed out. And yes, ammo costs money and has extra weight, so not needing to carry it around is a massive benefit for soldiers. Even in the real world there's been the policy of making bullets smaller so you can carry more of them.

The armor is good enough to allow the low level goblin to tank hits from the high-level dwarf, isn't that enough proof of how good it is? And the axe itself made short work of its previous owner that was also significantly higher level. Then the fact it can phase through its owner is another massive advantage since it means it can be used even if you're grappled (or granting bonus on intimidate checks like when Ears phased it through his head to scare a crowd).

Kore got distracted by a flying glowing goblin, so he's not fully immune to shiny.

Good point in throwing away the racist axe though, was misremembering things. Kore still wants to loot the axe of prissan though.

Considering a cleric can create 10 gallons of water at level 1, being able to create cup after cup of fresh water isnt exactly game changing. Im not saying its utterly worthless, its clearly not, but the majority of its use is pretty clearly novelty. You dont even have to be an adventurer to provide enough water to keep a number of people content on a daily basis, just be a level 1 cleric. That forgath was able to make a version of napalm is one of those outside the box uses that it probably takes a dm approval to allow in the first place as its a mug that is clearly meant to produce drinks for the person using it.

The shield is probably closer to gas weapons in that you cant be sure which side of the battle is going to die if you use it. Might drift over the enemy, might drift over you, might kill you both.


True its a powerful ability, but it clearly has limits in that you first have to put it on your target, and then you have to keep ahold of the leash if you want any control over them.

Besides the SINGLE +1 sword in the entire brassmoon militia, they had cheap, weak magic crossbows whose only value was they didnt need to be supplied with extra bolts. Thats still not much to brag on. Especially since even the extra bolt thing had harsh limits.

It only phases through paladins. Any paladin, including one you might be fighting yourself. Thats handy if YOU are a paladin sure, as it cant be used against you without shenanigans like they did to kore, not so much for anyone else using it. As for taking down saral, keep in mind saral didnt have a weapon that could hurt ears other than his bare hands. Meanwhile ears had a big honking axe and was fighting an unarmed opponent only a couple levels above him. I would have been more surprised if he failed.

Kore doesnt want the axe because its a shiny magical item, he wants it because of the incredibly confusing and muddled back story of it and what it means. Notice how he has displayed no interest in any of the other magic weapons on display?

[Draconi Redfir]

i think the idea is that Kore wants the axe because it's "the ultimate paladin weapon" or whatnot, but that's just what he thinks. In actuality, Kore is acting as a walking buffet for the Demon Deity and probably it's various fleas inside the axe. Kore is carrying around thousands of suffering souls, which would most likely give the Demon enough power to recover from being trapped in an axe for so long.

Kore's condition and actions was likely tailor-made specifically for this, with the intent to have him eventually acquire the axe and release the demon into the world.

[Traab]

i think the idea is that Kore wants the axe because it's "the ultimate paladin weapon" or whatnot, but that's just what he thinks. In actuality, Kore is acting as a walking buffet for the Demon Deity and probably it's various fleas inside the axe. Kore is carrying around thousands of suffering souls, which would most likely give the Demon enough power to recover from being trapped in an axe for so long.

Kore's condition and actions was likely tailor-made specifically for this, with the intent to have him eventually acquire the axe and release the demon into the world.

Agreed, the whole story behind both kore and the axe are so muddled and full of unreliable narrator parts its hard to be sure entirely what will happen, but yeah, chances are if he gets the axe, things will go very badly indeed for the material plane. Its not even impossible that this was the intended end result of team dark side. We have this deluded paladin full of thousands of tasty suffering souls, an axe that is weakened when held by evil (I think) and when it breaks, there are going to be some hungry demons eager for a meal with one right there in front of them.

[Vinyadan]

Agreed, the whole story behind both kore and the axe are so muddled and full of unreliable narrator parts its hard to be sure entirely what will happen, but yeah, chances are if he gets the axe, things will go very badly indeed for the material plane. Its not even impossible that this was the intended end result of team dark side. We have this deluded paladin full of thousands of tasty suffering souls, an axe that is weakened when held by evil (I think) and when it breaks, there are going to be some hungry demons eager for a meal with one right there in front of them.

I think this is what happened. Kore was cursed by the demons. He created the axe because of that. The curse also turned him into the third Prissan, that imprisons the damned. He is compelled to look for the axe while on a quest to kill and imprison as many creatures as possible. This way, once it breaks, he and the souls he carries will be taken by the great demon. http://goblinscomic.com/comic/09182016-2

There remains a mystery concerning the first Prissan, which is a warhammer imprisoning a good entity.

Spoiler

Show

Maybe the goblins will have to enter hell to recover the first Prissan to release a good god to fight the demon after it's fully entered the world.

BTW, one of the old holders of the axe went the Curse Walk: http://www.goblinscomic.org/comics/20101228.jpg

[Draconi Redfir]

There remains a mystery concerning the first Prissan, which is a warhammer imprisoning a good entity.

Spoiler

Show

Maybe the goblins will have to enter hell to recover the first Prissan to release a good god to fight the demon after it's fully entered the world.

it's not the same thing, but one of the alternate realities in the Maze of Many had "The Hammer of Jale", which sounds like the same thing, just from a different realities. Think that was kind of our clue to the Hammer of Prissan existing in the first place.

Reality #207 [do not appear? (unknown)][twitter 10 Aug 2011]
Minmax is an anti-paladin who hunts Big Ears (also an anti-pally) who weilds the Hammer Of Jale. A powerful weapon that holds a trapped angel who wants to break free & save the realm. The hammer must be used for evil to keep the angel trapped inside.

[GloatingSwine]

Agreed, the whole story behind both kore and the axe are so muddled and full of unreliable narrator parts its hard to be sure entirely what will happen, but yeah, chances are if he gets the axe, things will go very badly indeed for the material plane. Its not even impossible that this was the intended end result of team dark side. We have this deluded paladin full of thousands of tasty suffering souls, an axe that is weakened when held by evil (I think) and when it breaks, there are going to be some hungry demons eager for a meal with one right there in front of them.

Depends how reliable the demon's report that Kore created the axe is.

Though given it's threat to Ears was that the sacred would "rip off his skin and replace it with his childhood nightmares", and that does rather resemble Kore's appearance, it probably wasn't lying.

Kore holding the axe would not be a problem because his alignment is selective, he can be as good as its rules require and not troubled by conscience as Ears was.

Now, by my reckoning Kore has not seen the axe since it became damaged and people in the crawl are unaware of the shenanigans going on outside. My guess is when he becomes aware of it he will be compelled somehow to attempt to repair the damage to the axe, possibly by entering the prison it represents himself along with all his captive souls (probably rendering it inert or otherwise unusable).

I do not think the sacred itself will need souls, it's the lesser demons that toil and trade for those.

[Kish]

The comic being gratuitously gruesome is nothing new. I don't think it's likely to change. It's kind of...disturbingly amusing to look at the Goblin Adventuring Party's "development," not in levels, but in lost pieces. This one has a nonfunctional arm and is part demon, this one has MONSTER permanently carved on his forehead, and now...

On another note, Kore's explanation strikes me as...regrettably rule-focused. And Chief's plan to defeat Kore wouldn't work even if it could be easily done. Kore's deadly to a third-level party because, as his casting Holy Sword shows, he's level 14+, not because of any specific paladin class feature. If they remove his "ignore paladin class restrictions" ability and he becomes a level 14+ fighter without bonus feats, he won't collapse; he'll be less powerful but still deadly.

[Traab]

The comic being gratuitously gruesome is nothing new. I don't think it's likely to change. It's kind of...disturbingly amusing to look at the Goblin Adventuring Party's "development," not in levels, but in lost pieces. This one has a nonfunctional arm and is part demon, this one has MONSTER permanently carved on his forehead, and now...

On another note, Kore's explanation strikes me as...regrettably rule-focused. And Chief's plan to defeat Kore wouldn't work even if it could be easily done. Kore's deadly to a third-level party because, as his casting Holy Sword shows, he's level 14+, not because of any specific paladin class feature. If they remove his "ignore paladin class restrictions" ability and he becomes a level 14+ fighter without bonus feats, he won't collapse; he'll be less powerful but still deadly.

Keep in mind by now he has been grievously damaged on multiple occasions by these same lower level types and most likely only still lives due to lay on hands. Yes its required multiple bits of plot armor such as having that racist axe/2h weapon combo from forgath giving him enough damage to actually injure him when possible, or this latest one with the golem, but it has happened. Take away his buffs and self heals and he becomes a daunting task to defeat, not an impossible one. On top of that, im pretty sure everyone is level 4, on the way to 5 at least, they may even get another level or two before its all said and done, making a group effort take down less and less impossible as they move up. If they meet up with kin they will have tanks, dps, healers, and nukers giving them a well balanced party with lots of options to work with if they fight smart.

To me the issue is, the description of how his curse works might mean that so long as he has any other souls in him, he can act as them. If he can still be a paladin despite his epic evil and unlawful actions, its possible he has access to other class skills as well. Would kinda suck if they banished his good souls only for him to go level 15 necromancer on them, or blackguard, or whatever evil class/skill list you care to mention. Its the kind of twist I expect from this author too be honest. "Oh, you thought you finally won a victory and crippled him? Guess what?!" /mass inflict wounds

[John Cribati]

On another note, Kore's explanation strikes me as...regrettably rule-focused.

I'm confused as to what you mean by this

[Keltest]

I'm confused as to what you mean by this

I assume that Kish means Kore's explanation for how he can retain his paladin powers is literally just "he counts as Lawful Good" which is disappointing, since paladins don't actually work like that. There isn't any deep secret or anything, he's just faking it to the class.

[Kish]

I'm confused as to what you mean by this

When Chief was explaining why Kore still has his paladin abilities, it was nothing but pure rules text. No effort to even sound profound, just mechanical--on the level of saying "a longsword does 1d8 damage, so..." An unsatisfying end to a mystery Ellipsis made such a point of building up starting so long ago, with Kore himself denying that he's cursed. In the end, it's completely unconnected to his delusions; he's nothing more, and nothing less, than Dellyn sized up to be an overall comic main villain instead of a single arc villain. What was he like as a true paladin? How did he go from the height of virtue to being so viciously delusional? What is the nature of his curse and how did he acquire it? I no longer will be at all surprised if the story never addresses any of those.

There's also, as Keltest points out, the fact that the mechanics so prosaically spelled out would not work; a paladin's code is not "must maintain Lawful Good alignment," but "must remain Lawful and never ever commit a single evil act." But even if Chief had described different mechanics ("He still has all his class abilities because he's able to direct all divine or cosmic judgments to the soul of a gnoll paladin he murdered long ago")--jeez, even when I'm trying to emulate the writing style there I can't avoid sounding less bathetic than what Ellipsis wrote--it would remain that now that we have the answer to Kore's mystery, I am struck by the idea that Ellipsis and I were never on the same page about what the question was.

[Fyraltari]

If he can still be a paladin despite his epic evil and unlawful actions, its possible he has access to other class skills as well. Would kinda suck if they banished his good souls only for him to go level 15 necromancer on them, or blackguard, or whatever evil class/skill list you care to mention. Its the kind of twist I expect from this author too be honest. "Oh, you thought you finally won a victory and crippled him? Guess what?!" /mass inflict wounds

I thought the soul-thing only allow him to access alignments other than his own and that he had gained his paladin levels the same way as everybody else. He can't just swap them for something else, can he?

[Draconi Redfir]

maybe Cheif is just wrong?

i mean, how much information are you really going to get while being tortured for five years in the span of five days?

Cheif never really did show a lot of aptitude for knowing how paladins worked.

[Traab]

I thought the soul-thing only allow him to access alignments other than his own and that he had gained his paladin levels the same way as everybody else. He can't just swap them for something else, can he?

We only know he can use their alignments as his own, we dont know thats ALL he can do. Like I said, its the sort of twist I kinda expect. Maybe im wrong and it wont happen, but I have this sinking feeling that kore isnt done displaying how big of a threat he really is.

[Vinyadan]

I can imagine this. Kore is laying in a puddle of blood. The goblins have won. Chief is avenged. For good measure, Ears has ripped out his eyeballs before the fight.

Kore barely can raise his head. He has recognised Complains as the leader of the goblins. "Come closer, demon" , he wheezes. "There is something I must tell you" .

Complains won't get too near. He knows what a terrible enemy Kore is. He barely takes a step forward, ready to strike. "Speak, Kore" , he says.

There is a moment of silence. Then Kore deeply, slowly inhales. "I am a dread necromancer now."

"What?!"

"And now I am undead!"

"WHAT?!"

"Charnel touch! Charnel touch! Charnel touch!"

The goblins are in a panic. "Aaahhh! He's healing himself!"

Kore stands up and charges! "Charnel touch! Charnel touch! Charnel touch! Charnel touch!" The goblins are all dead!

Kore picks up his white stones and uses them to raise the goblins as zombies! First Complains, then the others. As he raises the last one (Ears), zombie Complains attacks Kore from behind! He's raging! HE KILLS KORE! As Kore dies, all the zombies become free-willed, living goblins again!

"What happened?" , asks Thaco.

"Demons cannot be zombies" , says Complains.

[Traab]

I can imagine this. Kore is laying in a puddle of blood. The goblins have won. Chief is avenged. For good measure, Ears has ripped out his eyeballs before the fight.

Kore barely can raise his head. He has recognised Complains as the leader of the goblins. "Come closer, demon" , he wheezes. "There is something I must tell you" .

Complains won't get too near. He knows what a terrible enemy Kore is. He barely takes a step forward, ready to strike. "Speak, Kore" , he says.

There is a moment of silence. Then Kore deeply, slowly inhales. "I am a dread necromancer now."

"What?!"

"And now I am undead!"

"WHAT?!"

"Charnel touch! Charnel touch! Charnel touch!"

The goblins are in a panic. "Aaahhh! He's healing himself!"

Kore stands up and charges! "Charnel touch! Charnel touch! Charnel touch! Charnel touch!" The goblins are all dead!

Kore picks up his white stones and uses them to raise the goblins as zombies! First Complains, then the others. As he raises the last one (Ears), zombie Complains attacks Kore from behind! He's raging! HE KILLS KORE! As Kore dies, all the zombies become free-willed, living goblins again!

"What happened?" , asks Thaco.

"Demons cannot be zombies" , says Complains.

Close, but its thaco who removes his eyes. He hasnt been physically tortured yet except in flashbacks. And since he has his magic headband that he wears over his eyes anyways its ok.

[Fyraltari]

I really can't see the guy who based his life around "all evil must be exterminated" re-inventing himself as a dark wizard. I don't think he could see himself as anything else than a paladin really. Forcing him to confront that he himself is evil, in a way he can't deny (ie falling) would break his will.

[Traab]

I really can't see the guy who based his life around "all evil must be exterminated" re-inventing himself as a dark wizard. I don't think he could see himself as anything else than a paladin really. Forcing him to confront that he himself is evil, in a way he can't deny (ie falling) would break his will.

He is pretty deep into the ends justify the means territory. Remember he killed a toddler dwarf for the crime of living with monsters because he might some day grow up to be evil. "Oh, those evil monsters managed to remove my ability to act as a paladin, whatever it takes to destroy their evil is justified!" Im not saying he would just continue on as normal, but I dont think it would break his will as such. He believes it is his mission to destroy evil and anything he does is justified in pursuit of that goal, i doubt he would flinch at using evil spells if thats all he was left with after some dastardly plot of evil monsters cost him his pally skills.

[Fyraltari]

He is pretty deep into the ends justify the means territory. Remember he killed a toddler dwarf for the crime of living with monsters because he might some day grow up to be evil. "Oh, those evil monsters managed to remove my ability to act as a paladin, whatever it takes to destroy their evil is justified!" Im not saying he would just continue on as normal, but I dont think it would break his will as such. He believes it is his mission to destroy evil and anything he does is justified in pursuit of that goal, i doubt he would flinch at using evil spells if thats all he was left with after some dastardly plot of evil monsters cost him his pally skills.

But that’s the thing, he isn’t thinking in terms of ‘the ends justify the mean’. He honestly doesn’t think there was anything wrong with killing that child. When he talks to Forgath he simply calls the child evil and shows no regret over killing him.

[Keltest]

If he had the ability to pick and choose from the class levels of his victims, why does he limit himself to just using paladin abilities? Even some extra fighter feats, or ranger tracking, or cleric spellcasting would all potentially be useful to him.

[Draconi Redfir]

i don't think he DOES have the ability to pick and choose class levels, only alignment. So you could hit him with a spell that deals extra damage to lawful good creatures, and he would count as chaotic evil and take reduced damage. you could hit him with smite good, smite evil, smite neutral, no matter what you choose, he counts as the alignment that the ability is not designed to target. If you detect evil on him, he reads as good. if you detect good, he reads as evil, whatever is most benificial.

he could probably even take ranks in monk or barbarian without worry considering he can bypass alignment requirements.


it doesn't explain his paladin-ness like Cheif says, so i hope that's a case of an unreliable narrator, but it's still a pretty powerful ability.

[archon_huskie]

There is absolutely no evidence from the comic that Kore can use class abilities from the souls he is holding onto. He can only use his own class abilities. He is only able to use a Lawful Good Soul in his body to make himself count as lawful good. He has to do this because he is no longer lawful good himself. His body registers as LG
to his class abilities, because of the LG souls he's absorbed. Remove those LG souls and his paladin abilities won't recognize him as LG.


Hypothetically, if he got a magic item that required him to be CG to use, the magic item would read his body as CG and work for him.