Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

[John Cribati]

Theoretically, A Smite Evil (Or Smite Good, or Smite Extremist) would also count him as an alignment that would be affected.

[Draconi Redfir]

from the looks of things, he counts as whatever alignment is most beneficial to him. So no, a smite evil/good/etc would not work on him.

[Traab]

from the looks of things, he counts as whatever alignment is most beneficial to him. So no, a smite evil/good/etc would not work on him.

/casts new epic spell SMITE EVERYTHING!

/its super effective!

[halfeye]

Theoretically, A Smite Evil (Or Smite Good, or Smite Extremist) would also count him as an alignment that would be affected.

At the same time as he stays LG to remain a paladin? I hope he has to choose.

[Draconi Redfir]

At the same time as he stays LG to remain a paladin? I hope he has to choose.

pretty sure it's like saying "half-orcs Orcs count as both humanoids and orcs", or "Androids count as both humanoids and constructs"

He's just perpetually all alignments at all times. spells and things that affect alignment just latch onto whichever one is most beneficial to him at the time, rather then him actively switching between them.

[Maryring]

That'd mean he'd be vulnerable to every single alignment effect from Smites and Words and the like, since they test "IF alignment IS X, THEN execute effect Y" not "Execute Y EXCEPT IF alignment IS X".

And even so. As per UMD "Emulate Alignment" you can only emulate one alignment at a time. Even if he could emulate an Evil alignment to, for example, avoid Unholy Smite, that'd mean not being Good, therefore forfeiting his Paladin powers.

[Draconi Redfir]

That'd mean he'd be vulnerable to every single alignment effect from Smites and Words and the like, since they test "IF alignment IS X, THEN execute effect Y" not "Execute Y EXCEPT IF alignment IS X".

No it wouldn't. the whole thing works in HIS favor, not in the caster's / spells favor. If he picks up a weapon that can only be wielded by chaotic evil, he can use it. if he gets hit by a smite evil, he's not affected by it. If he's doing both, he's not being affected by a smite evil while wielding a weapon that can only be wielded by an evil creature.

Smites and words and the like would run "IF alignment IS X, THEN execute effect Y", but they wouldn't be able to run effect Y, because since the alignment thing works in his favor, then he's not going to register as X. He'd just register as something else, or none, whatever works in HIS favor.

[-D-]

At the same time as he stays LG to remain a paladin? I hope he has to choose.

I'm pretty sure he basically just hast a truckload of Munchkin's Cheats.

[Willie the Duck]

And even so. As per UMD "Emulate Alignment" you can only emulate one alignment at a time. Even if he could emulate an Evil alignment to, for example, avoid Unholy Smite, that'd mean not being Good, therefore forfeiting his Paladin powers.

Elli has not previously, to my knowledge, indicated any such requirements.

[Mobius Twist]

Per narrative villain power levels, always expect the villain to be more powerful than any of the heroes. In a lot of cases, the villain is more powerful than ALL of the heroes at once to make the outcome uncertain.

As such, I have no trouble accepting the idea that Kore is getting powers from his demonic non-bargain that suit all of the situations that you guys are putting out there.

[Kaptin Keen]

Per narrative villain power levels, always expect the villain to be more powerful than any of the heroes. In a lot of cases, the villain is more powerful than ALL of the heroes at once to make the outcome uncertain.

As such, I have no trouble accepting the idea that Kore is getting powers from his demonic non-bargain that suit all of the situations that you guys are putting out there.

I think the trouble here is that ... narrative is more important than RAW, and a number of people disagree with that. It's one of the major pitfalls of anything based on D&D, or anything else with a clear set of rules. Not that I'm calling the D&D ruleset clear, other than that it's clearly there.

[Murk]

I think the trouble here is that ... narrative is more important than RAW, and a number of people disagree with that.

I'd argue that the author herself is not entirely clear on this, though.
If Kore had had a mystical, unnamed ability to use Paladin powers that wasn't explained, we wouldn't all be having this conversation. If Kore's paladin powers came from personal perspective or a philosophical journey, I doubt anyone would ever have dragged RAW into it.
But the author herself made this a RAW-thing. She used the rules, made alignment prerequisites something that adhered to written rules and can be evaded by being clever with the rules. In this case, the author herself muddled up the priorities between narrative and RAW.

[Kaptin Keen]

I'd argue that the author herself is not entirely clear on this, though.
If Kore had had a mystical, unnamed ability to use Paladin powers that wasn't explained, we wouldn't all be having this conversation. If Kore's paladin powers came from personal perspective or a philosophical journey, I doubt anyone would ever have dragged RAW into it.
But the author herself made this a RAW-thing. She used the rules, made alignment prerequisites something that adhered to written rules and can be evaded by being clever with the rules. In this case, the author herself muddled up the priorities between narrative and RAW.

.. and that's what I mean: I couldn't care less whether the narrative sticks to RAW or not, and to my mind Kore has never been a paladin (well - not as we know him, but I don't argue that he used to be, back when he was still technically alive, and a dwarf, and not filled with hellish light where his innards should be).

I feel that Kore has the possibility still of becoming a worthwhile villain. To do so, it must become clear not just how he fell, how he became what he is now - but what his emotional detachment is. Right now, he's pretty boring; a 2d murder bot with pathetic dialogue. To make him any good, I need to know .. all the blood and guts, his anguish and suffering, what terrible events turned him into this monster. And not just 'boohoo, he saw all his paladin buddies slain by demons' - that just isn't good enough.

Never mind. Point is - I care more about narrative than RAW.

[Morgaln]

I'd argue that the author herself is not entirely clear on this, though.
If Kore had had a mystical, unnamed ability to use Paladin powers that wasn't explained, we wouldn't all be having this conversation. If Kore's paladin powers came from personal perspective or a philosophical journey, I doubt anyone would ever have dragged RAW into it.
But the author herself made this a RAW-thing. She used the rules, made alignment prerequisites something that adhered to written rules and can be evaded by being clever with the rules. In this case, the author herself muddled up the priorities between narrative and RAW.

For me, the main problem is that she's trying to pass this off as a clever way to circumvent RAW when it isn't. RAW states that paladins lose their paladin status when they stop being LG, yes. But it also states that paladins lose their paladin status when they willingly perform an evil act. That part is independent of their alignment. A paladin that commits one evil act is still LG, since a single evil act doesn't cause alignment changes. But they will still lose their paladin power because that second requirement doesn't check their alignment, it only checks their deeds. Therefore it doesn't matter what alignment Kore pings at, his deeds should have voided his powers long ago.
Therefore, the explanation doesn't work from a rules perspective, because it isn't consistent with the rules. However, it doesn't work from a narrative perspective either, because it is trying to use the rules to explain how it works. And thus, the whole explanation is unsatisfying no matter what direction you approach it from.

[Traab]

For me, the main problem is that she's trying to pass this off as a clever way to circumvent RAW when it isn't. RAW states that paladins lose their paladin status when they stop being LG, yes. But it also states that paladins lose their paladin status when they willingly perform an evil act. That part is independent of their alignment. A paladin that commits one evil act is still LG, since a single evil act doesn't cause alignment changes. But they will still lose their paladin power because that second requirement doesn't check their alignment, it only checks their deeds. Therefore it doesn't matter what alignment Kore pings at, his deeds should have voided his powers long ago.
Therefore, the explanation doesn't work from a rules perspective, because it isn't consistent with the rules. However, it doesn't work from a narrative perspective either, because it is trying to use the rules to explain how it works. And thus, the whole explanation is unsatisfying no matter what direction you approach it from.

Oh god that reminds me of some of the old D&D topics where people talked about how easy it is to be a total richard to anyone playing a paladin as a dm by using all sorts of lame tricks to force a fall from "Oops! Turns out those demonic imps were actually orphan human children and you were under an illusion! You fall!" To magic items that switch alignments without any way to know ahead of time. It was especially bad for paladins because while any class can have a dm effectively shut down their skills by throwing encounters that hard counter them, at least the player still IS that class and HAS those skills, but a jerk dm can just flat out take them away from a paladin with lame cheese.

[Kaptin Keen]

For me, the main problem is that she's trying to pass this off as a clever way to circumvent RAW when it isn't. RAW states that paladins lose their paladin status when they stop being LG, yes. But it also states that paladins lose their paladin status when they willingly perform an evil act. That part is independent of their alignment. A paladin that commits one evil act is still LG, since a single evil act doesn't cause alignment changes. But they will still lose their paladin power because that second requirement doesn't check their alignment, it only checks their deeds. Therefore it doesn't matter what alignment Kore pings at, his deeds should have voided his powers long ago.
Therefore, the explanation doesn't work from a rules perspective, because it isn't consistent with the rules. However, it doesn't work from a narrative perspective either, because it is trying to use the rules to explain how it works. And thus, the whole explanation is unsatisfying no matter what direction you approach it from.

But maybe it's cleverer than that?

Let's say the mechanics of the thing are thusly:

Kore was a paladin, but he performed some great evil, killing many innocents. Now, Kore's fallen soul is captured inside him, along with all those others. Each of those souls can be independently 'responsible' for his actions. So basically, whenever he performs a new evil deed, it's another soul - not Kore's - that falls all over again. But since he's so adept at killing, he'll never run out of innocent souls.

That's a fairly reasonable extension of the whole alignment thing. And that's the beauty of narrative: With a bit of imagination, you really can do whatever you like with the Rules As Written. And frankly, it's much more interesting that way - at least to me - than the restraints RAW would otherwise put on the story.

[Gez]

Oh god that reminds me of some of the old D&D topics where people talked about how easy it is to be a total richard to anyone playing a paladin as a dm by using all sorts of lame tricks to force a fall from "Oops! Turns out those demonic imps were actually orphan human children and you were under an illusion! You fall!" To magic items that switch alignments without any way to know ahead of time. It was especially bad for paladins because while any class can have a dm effectively shut down their skills by throwing encounters that hard counter them, at least the player still IS that class and HAS those skills, but a jerk dm can just flat out take them away from a paladin with lame cheese.

And that's where you can quote Gygax and say that if a paladin decides to kill something, then killing that thing is a Lawful Good act because it was a decision made by a Paladin.

https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/v...197394#p197394
"A paladin is qualified to be judge and jury"

[John Cribati]

Also also, isnt it stated that the Players handbook is a set of guidelines more so than a set of rules? The GM can twist and turn them all he wants. And as the author, Elli trumps the GM in this case.

Not that I consider this particular bit of lore very well-written or thought out. I just feel that RAW isn't the and-all, be-all, especially when it comes yo stories based on D&D mechanics.

[sihnfahl]

Also also, isnt it stated that the Players handbook is a set of guidelines more so than a set of rules?

So behaving like the Pirate's Code?

[Morgaln]

Thing is, if you toss out the D&D mechanics in your story whenever they get inconvenient, why have those mechanics in the first place? Just write the story the way you want right away. But if your mechanics are plot-relevant, make sure they are sound or they come over as inconsistent.

[Willie the Duck]

Thing is, if you toss out the D&D mechanics in your story whenever they get inconvenient, why have those mechanics in the first place? Just write the story the way you want right away. But if your mechanics are plot-relevant, make sure they are sound or they come over as inconsistent.

Partially agree. And that's where it kind of becomes important what story is being told. My initial understanding of Goblins is that the story that is actually at the heart of it is 'what would happen if the traditionally evil monster races were actually the good guys, and humans and the PC races (at least those that went out and hunted them just because they were the designated villain race) were the bad guys?' That story is an interesting premise and it works for Kore as being an unstoppable nightmare villain with little additional explanation needed (he retains his paladinhood because the rules of the universe are part of the 'standard model' that the PC goblins are up against). On that level, I think Kore is a decent villain*.
*Or at least is in broad strokes. I always found the actual presentation extremely cartoony.

I think, like lots of villains, Kore lost a lot of his scariness once the author started trying to explain him. That he's based on 3e alignment mechanics but then breaks them in some unexplained fashion is only really a small part of that problem (just say his backstory gave him a special template or PrC which allows this rulebreak and we're done, a PrC with the ability to qualify as whichever alignment is most convenient fits in perfectly with what actually exists in 3e). It is (IMO) the act of providing an intricate explanation in the first place that saps Kore of his momentum as a villain. Now, instead of an unplacatable force of nature hell bent (heh) on thwarting the goblins' quest to be heroes, he's merely a defined thing with known qualities.

However, and in contradiction to the previous paragraph, I think the focus on D&D-isms has been a net negative as a whole. I mean, yes, having people have little hp numbers over their heads is funny, and Fumbles/Vorpal arguing that he can be X/11th of each class is fine. As are the jokes about 'you can't go, it's my initiative.' Basically the funny little asides. However, whenever in depth discussion about game rules or just general codified systems come up, they almost invariably turn into 'exposition in search of value to the plot.' The only time I can think of (outside of the comedic bits) where discussing and playing around with 'the rules' benefitted the story were situations like the eternal dungeon (forget the name) and messing with the rules therein (like confusion causing a door to open, or making psion-Minmax 'win' the dungeon and thus be permanently ejected from it), or Dies Horribly accidentally getting the devil to try to take his soul (which happened to include an additional soul not bargained for, causing the devil to get dragged down to hell) -- and those cases weren't really forcing D&D rules upon things, so much as establishing a set of rules and then playing with them.

[GloatingSwine]

i don't think he DOES have the ability to pick and choose class levels, only alignment. So you could hit him with a spell that deals extra damage to lawful good creatures, and he would count as chaotic evil and take reduced damage. you could hit him with smite good, smite evil, smite neutral, no matter what you choose, he counts as the alignment that the ability is not designed to target. If you detect evil on him, he reads as good. if you detect good, he reads as evil, whatever is most benificial.

I'm not sure as he works like that. Even if he could, I don't think he does.

Kore is bound up in his self-image as an evil-killing Paladin, he has the ability to retain the Lawful Good alignment no matter what he does because of his curse, but I don't think he'd use the ability to present any other alignment because it wouldn't fit with what he believes about himself.

[Draconi Redfir]

I'm not sure as he works like that. Even if he could, I don't think he does.

Kore is bound up in his self-image as an evil-killing Paladin, he has the ability to retain the Lawful Good alignment no matter what he does because of his curse, but I don't think he'd use the ability to present any other alignment because it wouldn't fit with what he believes about himself.

"He counts as lawful good, or chatoic evil, or neutral. Whatever he needs to be to benefit"

He is absolutely able to present as other alignments. Maybe he's not aware of this power though, and it's more of a passive thing that happens on it's own rather then him specifically choosing it. His messed up mind just justifies it as "because i'm amazing" rather then questioning why that smite-good didn't work on him.

[Draconi Redfir]

New Comic is Up!

Enough arguments about Kore. It's Minmax time!

[Lvl 2 Expert]

You say that like he's doing something awesome, rather than confusingly declaring himself as partnered with Fumbles dead.

[Traab]

Im not sure whats confusing about being sad that everyone he cares about seeming to die on him. Kin being the exception its a realistic reaction considering he just left his "brother" forgath to die against kore like, a day ago, and now his buddy vorpal is presumably dead. Its been a rough 24 hours for him. Oh yeah, and dont forget that he had that whole final exchange with kin a couple hours earlier so basically, his emotions must be a wreck.

[Vinyadan]

Sigh...

Spoiler

Show

I'm sad.

[Willie the Duck]

You say that like he's doing something awesome, rather than confusingly declaring himself as partnered with Fumbles dead.

Im not sure whats confusing about being sad that everyone he cares about seeming to die on him. Kin being the exception its a realistic reaction considering he just left his "brother" forgath to die against kore like, a day ago, and now his buddy vorpal is presumably dead. Its been a rough 24 hours for him. Oh yeah, and dont forget that he had that whole final exchange with kin a couple hours earlier so basically, his emotions must be a wreck.

You're both right. There's nothing confusing about what he's doing, and he isn't doing anything awesome. Sometimes when the scene changes, we jump right into activity (usually conversation), and sometimes we get one of these low-plot-movement establishing shot type things. Compared to some where it is just visuals and no development, this is a step forward -- Min Max thinks his goblin frenemies (including Fumbles/Vorpal, the one that seemed to truly be friendly) are dead, so he's sad.

On the art side, I hadn't noticed MM's weird sometime-fingered hand-coverings before. I use that term because they are clearly part of the color-changing armor set, and as such should be gauntlets, yet they look more like gloves (modern athletic gloves, to be specific). Not good or bad per se, just notable.

[Anteros]

Well, it's less depressing than Ears mutilating himself and Chief getting sucked back into his hell torture.

Seriously. Elli can't possibly be in a good place mentally to write this stuff.

[Dragonus45]

Well, it's less depressing than Ears mutilating himself and Chief getting sucked back into his hell torture.

Seriously. Elli can't possibly be in a good place mentally to write this stuff.

The Irony here is that she is currently in just about the best mental state she has been in for ages. I do have some thoughts about the connection between various themes of people who lose control of their bodies, like Complains becoming a demon or Dies getting an arm that eventually rebelled though. I might do a reread and look for that kind of stuff.