Skill-based Spellcasting

[Lacuna Caster]

I wasn't quite sure whether to put this thread under Homebrew or more general RPG discussion, and there's probably plenty of design precedent for this that I just haven't dug up, but FWIW I've been thinking about how one might transition standard D&D into a relatively classless system, with particular attention to spellcasting mechanics. I'm mostly familiar with 3.5e rules, and theoretically attracted to the E6/E8 ruleset for it's relative grittiness, so I'll be using that as a reference/point of departure. This is all going to be very free-association, and I'm sure I'll donk up some of the math, so feel free to correct me as I go.


Anyway, basic mechanics: Since you don't have a wizard/sorc/cleric class, what you get instead are the Faith and Arcana skills, and you don't get spells-per-day, you get a reserve of spell points a la the Psion classes. The DC to cast a given spell is 20 + (spell-level x 10). Taking 10 and Taking 20 are permitted as circumstances allow.

So a level 1 character with maxxed out skill ranks and excellent stat bonus and maybe a specialising feat or two can just about muster the +10 skill bonus needed to cast a level 1 spell, assuming they have oodles of time to do it without distractions.

Spell-point (SP) cost for a spell equals it's level + 1. Off the top of my head, let's say you get (skill bonus / 2) total SP, so our level-1 character gets 5 SP. That's enough for 1 level-1 and 3 level-0 spells in a day, or 2 level-1 and 1 level-0 spells. That seems comparable to a standard newbie wizard.

A level 5 spell has a casting DC of 70. If characters max out at level 10, let's say our veteran caster has 20 ranks in Arcana, +10 from their casting stat, +10 from feats specialising in a particular school of magic, and a +10 bonus from the proper use of equipment and lab facilities (see below.)

So if our hypothetical veteran mage takes 20 on the casting check, they can barely pull off, say, a Teleport spell. A Raise Dead would likewise be just about possible for the most seasoned of clerics. With 15 spell-points, their overall casting-quota is fairly limited relative to a standard D&D wizard at level 10 (I'm not sure if that's reasonably balanced relative to level-10 fighters or needs further tweaking.)

Any spells beyond that range require enormous bonuses that have to be acquired by unusual means- communal prayer, vows and ritual sacrifice for cleric/paladin types, lengthy lab preparations, ornate magitech or draining sorcerous metamagic for wizards. So, e.g, casting True Resurrection or Earthquake requires dozens of bloody sacrifices and a thousand-strong cult chanting in unison, while casting Gate or Time Stop requires a year of meticulous preparation, or stands a 50/50 chance of killing the caster, or both.

I had some loose notes on what the supplementary rules might look like, which depart pretty far from standard D&D, but I've included for the sake of completeness. (I suspect there could be some problems with the downtime cycle expected under, e.g, 5e rules, which I actually quite like, but I have a certain fondness for the research-focused hermetic wizard archetype.) Something else I'd like to do is try to refactor the standard spell list down a relative handful of core spells (e.g, the create-undead sequence, the planar ally/binding sequence, the cure-sequence and raise-dead sequence, etc.) But that's probably a whole new discussion...

Spoiler: Divine Casting

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Communal Prayer (clerics only)
  Congregation Size-
    x10   = +5 bonus
    x100  = +10 bonus
    x1000 = +15 bonus
  Other Clerics' Faith-
    Total of 10  = +5 bonus
    Total of 25  = +10 bonus
    Total of 100 = +15 bonus
  Note: Congregations must pray for entire duration of casting.
  Note: Other clerics must roll against half spell DC to participate.

Divine Domains (clerics only)
  Certain spell-types excluded.
  Theology (feat, multiple tiers)
    +1 SP, +1 casting bonus, +2 for domain.
    +2 SP, +3 casting bonus, +6 for domain.
    +3 SP, +5 casting bonus, +10 for domain.

Vows Of Devotion (clerics only)
  Specified per deity, up to 3 at once.
  +1/+3/+5 caster bonus per vow, depending on length kept.
  Lay Hands, Divine Grace etc. as chained feats.

Offer Sacrifice (clerics only)
  Material Goods / Animal Sacrifice:
    50    GP worth +1
    250   GP worth +3
    1000  GP worth +5
    2500  GP worth +7
    10000 GP worth +10
  Human Blood      +1 per 3 HP damage, max. +10
  Human Death      +15
  Human Death x10  +20
  Human Death x100 +25
  Death of Self    +30
  Note: Items offered in sacrifice can never be raised or regenerated.
        Not all deities accept all sacrifices.
        Only the single highest bonus is taken.

Spoiler: Arcane Casting

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Mnemonic Ritual (wizards only)
  Additional Precautions-
    Time x10   = +5  bonus (DC 10 Arcana x1)
    Time x100  = +10 bonus (DC 25 Arcana x2)
    Time x1000 = +15 bonus (DC 40 Arcana x3)
  Note:  Time bonus already assumes you are taking 20.
  Suitable Facilities-
    Small Study       = +5  bonus (1  GP rent+supplies/day)
    Large Studio      = +10 bonus (5  GP rent+supplies/day)
    Ornate Laboratory = +15 bonus (25 GP rent+supplies/day)
  Note:  Arcana roll is needed to resume casting after absence.

Sorcerous Blood (wizards only)
  Must be taken at character creation.
  Quickened Spell
    For casting in a reduced time, such as in combat.
    +10 DC/+5 DC/+0 DC.  (Can never take 10, however.)
  Exhausting Spell
    Spend fatigue/SP to grant a bonus to the casting check.
    +5  caster bonus = +2 SP, +5  fatigue.
    +15 caster bonus = +5 SP, +25 fatigue.
    +25 caster bonus = +8 SP, +45 fatigue.
    Fatigue in excess of current HP becomes injury instead.

School Of Study (wizards only)
  Sphere Of Study
    +2 bonus for a broad group:
    Abjuration vs. Evocation & Transmutation
    Divination vs. Illusion & Enchantment
    Restoration vs. Necromancy
    Conjuration
  School Focus [X]
    +3/+5/+8 bonus to specific school, -3/5/8 penalty to opposite.
    (Cannot choose Conjuration.)
  Master of Summoning
    +5 bonus to Conjuration spells that contact or bind outsiders.
    +5 bonus to dialog checks with such outsiders.
  Master of Apparition
    +10 bonus to teleportation, dysjunction, astral projection, etc.

Equipment Use (wizards only)
  Props can be used to store spells for later casting.
    +2/+4/+6 bonus spell points.
    3rd, 6th and 9th-level spell respectively.
    Staves have the advantage of being more robust.
    Wands have the advantage of being more portable.
    Scrolls only store a single spell, but are cheap.
    The Arcana DC for casting from props is halved.
  Iron & Grounding
    Light Armour:
      +5  spontaneous caster DC, max spell level of 4
    Medium Armour:
      +10 spontaneous caster DC, max spell level of 3
    Heavy Armour:
      +15 spontaneous caster DC, max spell level of 2
    Prepared spells in excess of maximum require Arcana checks at full DC.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

So a level 1 character with maxxed out skill ranks and excellent stat bonus and maybe a specialising feat or two can just about muster the +10 skill bonus needed to cast a level 1 spell, assuming they have oodles of time to do it without distractions.

Spell-point (SP) cost for a spell equals it's level + 1. Off the top of my head, let's say you get (skill bonus / 2) total SP, so our level-1 character gets 5 SP. That's enough for 1 level-1 and 3 level-0 spells in a day, or 2 level-1 and 1 level-0 spells. That seems comparable to a standard newbie wizard.

A level 5 spell has a casting DC of 70. If characters max out at level 10, let's say our veteran caster has 20 ranks in Arcana, +10 from their casting stat, +10 from feats specialising in a particular school of magic, and a +10 bonus from the proper use of equipment and lab facilities (see below.)

So if our hypothetical veteran mage takes 20 on the casting check, they can barely pull off, say, a Teleport spell. A Raise Dead would likewise be just about possible for the most seasoned of clerics. With 15 spell-points, their overall casting-quota is fairly limited relative to a standard D&D wizard at level 10 (I'm not sure if that's reasonably balanced relative to level-10 fighters or needs further tweaking.)

So, the first question is, why don't you want characters to be able to actually use their class features?

That's a bit flippant, admittedly, but it's a common pitfall for skill-based casting homebrew to assume an absolutely optimal character when setting DCs, as you do here. Most characters are not in fact absolutely optimal, so against those DCs most characters would not in fact be able to cast those spells. Take your hypothetical veteran mage and subtract even a single +1 modifier and he can no longer cast 5th-level spells at all--not "not as reliably," at all. A 10th-level fighter isn't expected to need to roll a 20 to hit even-level opposition, and he can roll attack rolls literally all day, so requiring a natural 20 to cast level-appropriate spells in addition to a spell point cost is far too punitive.

The Truenamer fell into exactly the same trap, with the designers assuming people would dumpster-dive for modifiers and so setting the DCs too high to be reliably hit and then adding punishing Law modifiers on top, and we all know that Truenamers are basically useless unless you do all that dumpster-diving, so every truenamer is either a useless waste of space or is a carbon copy of every other truenamer with a greater amulet of the silver tongue, membership in the Paragnostic Assembly, and so forth. And utterances aren't even all that impressive, so even if you max everything out you don't get much for it; spells, being actually useful, would simply enforce more dumpster diving to get the necessary modifiers.

Any spells beyond that range require enormous bonuses that have to be acquired by unusual means- communal prayer, vows and ritual sacrifice for cleric/paladin types, lengthy lab preparations, ornate magitech or draining sorcerous metamagic for wizards. So, e.g, casting True Resurrection or Earthquake requires dozens of bloody sacrifices and a thousand-strong cult chanting in unison, while casting Gate or Time Stop requires a year of meticulous preparation, or stands a 50/50 chance of killing the caster, or both.

If you want magic to be relatively rare, low-power, and dangerous to the caster, you can just...do that. If you want earthquake to require a major sacrifice and true resurrection to require a huge cooperative casting effort, you can just add in rules for those sorts of things. Giving earthquake a component line of "V, S, M, Sacrifice" and true resurrection a component line of "V, S, DF, M, Ritual" achieves what you're aiming for without punishing casters for being casters. You can also increase casting times, require sites of power like wizard towers or profane shrines...the world is your Dire Oyster.

When you're expending limited resources, giving it a chance of usage failure doesn't really balance it; saving throws are already a chance of failure and that doesn't stop certain spells from being overpowered. If the idea is instead to slow down spellcasters so something formerly level-appropriate in D&D is now a long shot and you expect e.g. 10th level casters to rely more on 3rd-level spells than 5th-level spells, you can, again, just do that. You can pin max spell levels to levels, or to ranks in the corresponding skills, so casters have a slower-than-core-3e progression; nothing requires a one-spell-level-per-two-caster-levels progression for your game.

If after all those sorts of adjustments you still want to require skill checks to cast, I suggest you come up with an archetypal newbie caster character--something like a new-to-the-game non-hardcore-optimizer would make, that does obvious things like maxing out skill ranks or using a lab if it's given to the character for free, but has less-than-max ability scores and no obscure bonuses--and then gives that character a roughly 60% success rate at most levels. The character has invested at least as much into their magic skill as a rogue has invested into his Hide or Disable Device skill, and the rogue gets to reach a point where he automatically succeeds at all the routine tasks and is only challenged by truly epic opposition, so the caster character should be able to do the same.

That's a common thing in 3e: you have a DC formula of 10 or 15 plus X/spell level, so that something is very chancy for low-level casters but, as spell levels rise at +1/2 per level but skill ranks rise at +1 per level, the task becomes comparatively easier and eventually automatic. And that lets the character optimize up to a comfortable 75% success rate if they want to without feeling forced to get absolutely every bonus, and if they do dumpster-dive for 100%, good for them.


Thought experiment time:

1a) What does the game look like if every caster can pass every skill check with a 100% success rate? If the answer is "broken to all hell and back," then the spells themselves are probably broken; eventually a caster is going to hit a string of lucky rolls and look or feel overpowered, and the fact that it only happens when lots of 20s are rolled doesn't help things. If the answer is "like standard D&D balance-wise," there's no real need to add in all the extra bookkeeping for little result.

1b) What does the game look like if every caster can pass every skill check with no more than a 20% success rate? If the answer is "boring as hell for the caster," then the player isn't going to have a fun time being useless; eventually a caster is going to hit a string of unlucky rolls, and I have one player in my group who routinely rolls no higher than a 7 in an entire session who wouldn't be able to play a caster under these rules without feeling bad for his decision.

2) What does a skill-based casting system give you that simply giving everyone a bard's spellcasting progression and adding expensive/dangerous/cumbersome components to spells doesn't? If the answer is "nothing but extra modifier tracking," then again, the extra complexity probably isn't needed.

[AtlasSniperman]

level 10 /SNIP/ 20 ranks in Arcana

I'm probably an idiot, but how? in PF ranks are max'd at =level and in 3.5 ranks are max'd at =level+3
How can a level 10 character have 20 ranks in a skill?
Or do you mean characters able to cast a 10th level spell? if so, why phrase it like that? I feel like I'm missing some large important part of your math here.

Believe me, I like skill-based magic, but the math has to work out well and has to be balanced for a generally optimized character. Forcing characters to become carbon copies to cast spells will not turn out well.

[Lacuna Caster]

So, the first question is, why don't you want characters to be able to actually use their class features?

...A 10th-level fighter isn't expected to need to roll a 20 to hit even-level opposition, and he can roll attack rolls literally all day, so requiring a natural 20 to cast level-appropriate spells in addition to a spell point cost is far too punitive.

...Hmm, I didn't explain this well, did I.

The implied strategy here is that Taking 20 for casting rolls is generally used for preparing spells in advance. You go off to somewhere secluded and meditate for a few hours, and since you have plenty of time to concentrate it's assumed you take the best possible result. (Spell points and material components are only consumed when casting is successful, so there's no general drawback to repeated attempts.) Then you can fire the spell off later as and when required.

If you want to cast a spell on-the-spot, you either need to Take 10 under relatively calm conditions, or roll dice if you're in distracting conditions (such as combat.) It's closer to having to roll Concentration checks, basically. So every caster, in principle, can be a mix of spontaneous and prepped casting, depending on how many spell points they hold in reserve, and with the understanding that spontaneous casting is chancier.

Sorcerous blood lets you access some perks that improve spontaneous casting, and the paladin-feat-chain would also be largely aimed toward improving combat casting- first aid, smites & touch spells, etc. But since it's all skill based, the main difference between a paladin and a cleric is that the paladin has dumped more skill ranks in Close Combat, while the cleric has dumped more skill ranks in Faith (and taken a few theology/sacred-mystery feats.) In a certain sense a wizard is a character that rigorously optimised for arcane magic from day one- that's all that separates them from the professional template for, say, a bard or an eldritch knight.

If you want magic to be relatively rare, low-power, and dangerous to the caster, you can just...do that. If you want earthquake to require a major sacrifice and true resurrection to require a huge cooperative casting effort, you can just add in rules for those sorts of things. Giving earthquake a component line of "V, S, M, Sacrifice" and true resurrection a component line of "V, S, DF, M, Ritual" achieves what you're aiming for without punishing casters for being casters. You can also increase casting times, require sites of power like wizard towers or profane shrines...the world is your Dire Oyster.

Hmm. Rules for sacred ground/ley lines sound good, now that you mention it...

Part of the reason why I'd like to generalise the rules on augmenting spellcasting is so that low-level characters can use them too- e.g, if your buddy rogue just got bit by a werewolf, the party's junior cleric might not be able to cast 'remove curse' by themselves, but maybe if you get them to the village chapel and ask the parishioners to hold hands and pray to pelor you can wring out enough of a casting bonus to do the job. (Also, HeroWars has extensive rules for this sort of thing, which I rather like.)

I'm probably an idiot, but how? in PF ranks are max'd at =level and in 3.5 ranks are max'd at =level+3
How can a level 10 character have 20 ranks in a skill?

I should stress I'm in no sense trying to compete with standard D&D classes, and the level-progression would be somewhat different here. Every character just gets a fixed number of total skill points and picks a particular class template during chargen.

          Max. Skill  Total Ranks      Other
Level 1:    5           21          2 Bonus Feats, 2 Class Feats
                                    10 starting points in attributes
Level 2:    7           27 (+6)        +1 att
Level 3:    9           39 (+6)     Bonus Feat
Level 4:    11          47 (+6)        +1 att
Level 5:    13          54 (+6)     Bonus Feat
Level 6:    15          60 (+6)        +1 att
Level 7:    17          65 (+6)     Bonus Feat
Level 8:    18          69 (+6)        +1 att
Level 9:    19          72 (+6)     Bonus Feat
Level X:    20          75 (+6)        +1 att

Some hypothetical templates here. They have no binding effect on how the character evolves in subsequent play, they just give an idea of the kinds of backgrounds a PC would come from (and help avoid a certain amount of derping?)

Spoiler: Class Templates

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Fighter:
  Skills:  At least 4 points in Close Combat, 1 or more in Marksmanship or Athletics
  2 of:  Carouser, Word of Honour, Weapon Style[X], Tactician

Rogue:
  Skills:  At least 3 points in Evasion and Perception
  2 of:  Sneak Attack, Night Owl, Larcenist, Parting Shot

Paladin:
  Skills:  At least 4 points in Close Combat, 1 or more in Faith in [X]
  2 of:  Lay Hands, Sense Evil, Word of Honour, Knighthood

Ranger:
  Skills:  At least 4 points in Marksmanship, 1 or more in Perception
  2 of:  Tracking, Survivalist, Animal Husbandry, Favoured Enemy

Priest:
  Skills:  At least 4 points in Faith in [X], 1 or more in Persuasion
  2 of:  Lay Hands, Voice from the Pulpit, Theology, Early Bird

Wizard:
  Skills:  At least 4 points in Arcana, 1 or more in Knowledge[X] or Crafting[Y]
  2 of:  Sphere of Mind, Sphere of Matter, Polymath, Appraisal

[AtlasSniperman]

Yeah the background system you're bolting this into is sufficiently different from standard D20 systems to require relearning before it can be properly advised about. How much of the math have you done so far? How do you calculate other DC's, how does combat work? I don't expect(or want) these answers, but they're the sort of information that's needed before parsing and judging a system like this. Sorry to have bother you.

[jqavins]

I'm a little confused, but I'll write some things that I hope are helpful anyway.

My first impression was that you've nerfed the hell out of casters. It's a common point that high level casters are overpowered, but also that very low level ones are underpowered. It looks to me like you've Nerf Blastered them across the board, which means overdoing it at high level and positively cutting the legs off low levels.

So I agreed with the stuff Pair'o'dice wrote, especially his point about the double failure chance of a skill roll for the spell to go off and then a saving throw. You're casting DCs need to come down a lot, and if you stick with this then save DCs should also go up a lot, and more spells (not all, but more) should get no save at all.

But then I read your second post. So the outrageous 20 + 10*level DC is for preparing spells, not casting? OK, then everybody takes 20 prepare spells and the main thing you've done is make the daily spell praparation take longer. Well, the main thing except for taking the top level spell away from many casters (leaving many first levels with only cantrips).

And with spontaneous casters you mentioned taking 10, but that makes the top spell level absolutely impossible an masterful min-maxing required even for one level below. Many spontaneous casters will be left unable to cast ahbouve two levels below what would otherwise be their max.

** WARNING ** ** Spontaneous Casters Are Totally Useless! ** ** Never Play Spontaneous Casters! **

I like the general idea of skill-based casting. I liked GURPS casting, which is completely skill-based. (But it has it's flaws too.)

By all means, give it another try. As Pair'o'dice stated, you should try sample builds of well-built-but-not-super-optimized characters and see if those get you where you want to be. As Atlas stated, since you're deviating rather a lot from standard 3.P build mechanics, start with an "Original System" thread that describes these fundementals. If you're not sure how to work the math to get where you want to be, then focus your opening post on where you want to be instead of on flawed math that doesn't get there.

I'm sorry if this sounds too harsh. I don't want to mock or discourage, but I'm afraid this looks, to me, like a really poor attempt. I usually try to be frank, and sometimes that turns out harsh. Sorry.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

...Hmm, I didn't explain this well, did I.

The implied strategy here is that Taking 20 for casting rolls is generally used for preparing spells in advance. You go off to somewhere secluded and meditate for a few hours, and since you have plenty of time to concentrate it's assumed you take the best possible result. (Spell points and material components are only consumed when casting is successful, so there's no general drawback to repeated attempts.) Then you can fire the spell off later as and when required.

If you want to cast a spell on-the-spot, you either need to Take 10 under relatively calm conditions, or roll dice if you're in distracting conditions (such as combat.) It's closer to having to roll Concentration checks, basically. So every caster, in principle, can be a mix of spontaneous and prepped casting, depending on how many spell points they hold in reserve, and with the understanding that spontaneous casting is chancier.

Yeah, that's definitely a very important point that you elided over. In that case, the very high DCs aren't quite so punitive, but the issue of assuming absolutely optimal modifiers still remains. Not just because of the "newbie player" issue mentioned before, but because the -10 from taking 10 instead of taking 20 means that if you can barely prepare a spell of level X you definitely can't spontaneously cast it reliably.

Again, things are much simpler if you just say "You can prepare spells of up to level N and spontaneously cast spells of up to level [N-2]" or the like.

Part of the reason why I'd like to generalise the rules on augmenting spellcasting is so that low-level characters can use them too- e.g, if your buddy rogue just got bit by a werewolf, the party's junior cleric might not be able to cast 'remove curse' by themselves, but maybe if you get them to the village chapel and ask the parishioners to hold hands and pray to pelor you can wring out enough of a casting bonus to do the job. (Also, HeroWars has extensive rules for this sort of thing, which I rather like.)

Now this is definitely a valid reason to want to have a hard-coded ritual casting system, and one that's nicely thematic, too. But this system doesn't actually have to be part of the core casting mechanic. You can have relatively standard "prepare some spells, spontaneously cast some spells, roll a casting check with reasonably high success rates" base casting mechanic, and then add this in as a Ceremonial Casting (for divine casters)/Ritual Casting (for arcane casters) subsystem.

You can then require a hard skill check to cast above your level that would normally be impossible without those modifiers, so that spells they should be able to cast regularly are highly reliable while those once-in-a-blue-moon spells have some risk. Not only that, but by explicitly separating them out mechanically you draw more of a distinction between routine adventuring magic and special ritual magic, where with your current proposal it's all the same thing but with a bunch of big bonuses being thrown around.

[jqavins]

You can then require a hard skill check to cast above your level that would normally be impossible without those modifiers, so that spells they should be able to cast regularly are highly reliable while those once-in-a-blue-moon spells have some risk.

Or, as an alternative, give some few particular spells a higher casting DC than most. That, along with numbers worked out appropriately, would give you a situation where normal spells of one's top available level can be cast with a high rate of success, and for spells below the top accessible level success approaches certainty, while for a few hard spells at one's top level, solo casting is impossible or nearly so, but those too become feasible as one's level advances.

At the risk of harping too much on this point, what you have to do is think carefully through what you want to achieve, then come up with the formulae and numbers, or ask for help therewith. If what I wrote in the paragraph above sounds like what you want, then go from there with the numbers. If PairO'Dice's "casting above your level" is what you want then you (or we) can create the numbers for that. Or PairO's previously suggested "V, S, DF, M, Ritual" spells. Or whatever.

[Lacuna Caster]

Yeah the background system you're bolting this into is sufficiently different from standard D20 systems to require relearning before it can be properly advised about. How much of the math have you done so far? How do you calculate other DC's, how does combat work? I don't expect(or want) these answers, but they're the sort of information that's needed before parsing and judging a system like this. Sorry to have bother you.

No, not at all. I have a rough outline for the combat system and might write it up at some point, but haven't sunk a lot of thought into tracking, stealth, crafting DCs, et cetera.

My first impression was that you've nerfed the hell out of casters. It's a common point that high level casters are overpowered, but also that very low level ones are underpowered. It looks to me like you've Nerf Blastered them across the board, which means overdoing it at high level and positively cutting the legs off low levels.

...But then I read your second post. So the outrageous 20 + 10*level DC is for preparing spells, not casting? OK, then everybody takes 20 prepare spells and the main thing you've done is make the daily spell praparation take longer. Well, the main thing except for taking the top level spell away from many casters (leaving many first levels with only cantrips).

It's very possible that the balance is off vs. full-fighter-types, but hopefully I can tweak that easily enough by adjusting the spell-point formula. (e.g, SP = Arcana bonus would give around 10 SP at level 1 and 30 SP at level 10, assuming max ranks.)

I would stress again, however, that there are no dedicated caster classes here: Wizard is as wizard does. In other words, if you haven't optimised a character to squeeze out every last point of casting bonuses to Arcana, then they are not a pure wizard. Maybe they look 'part bard' or 'part aristocrat', or something else based on the skills & feats they invested in- and if the relative utility of those other skills/feats is similar-ish, then that's fine- it roughly balances either way.

And with spontaneous casters you mentioned taking 10, but that makes the top spell level absolutely impossible...

There are no 'spontaneous casters'. There aren't even 'casters' per se as a separate category, just characters who invest in the Arcana skill. I would imagine them usually prepping spells in advance, which is easier/more reliable, but they also have the option of casting spontaneously. Some might invest in feats which make that easier. Some might invest in feats that make prepping easier, or maybe reduce spell-point costs, etc. etc. Or maybe they dump points in weapon skills and play a Gish. That's up to the player.

...I'm sorry if this sounds too harsh. I don't want to mock or discourage, but I'm afraid this looks, to me, like a really poor attempt. I usually try to be frank, and sometimes that turns out harsh. Sorry.

No, not a problem. I'm sure there are plenty of rough edges and tweaks to make, I just want to make sure that they're not based on external baggage.

Again, things are much simpler if you just say "You can prepare spells of up to level N and spontaneously cast spells of up to level [N-2]" or the like.

Yeah, I suppose I could phrase it that way, and maybe provide a helpful table of some kind. I just think if you have to explain the general skill system and take-10/20 options to players anyway, why not leverage that? Aside from having spell points in some form, why should there be a separate core system just for spellcasting?

[jqavins]

The first half of this sentence

I should stress I'm in no sense trying to compete with standard D&D classes...

is directly at odds with the rest of the paragraph

and the level-progression would be somewhat different here. Every character just gets a fixed number of total skill points and picks a particular class template during chargen.

Max. Skill  Total Ranks      Other
Level 1:    5           21          2 Bonus Feats, 2 Class Feats
                                    10 starting points in attributes
Level 2:    7           27 (+6)        +1 att
Level 3:    9           39 (+6)     Bonus Feat
Level 4:    11          47 (+6)        +1 att
Level 5:    13          54 (+6)     Bonus Feat
Level 6:    15          60 (+6)        +1 att
Level 7:    17          65 (+6)     Bonus Feat
Level 8:    18          69 (+6)        +1 att
Level 9:    19          72 (+6)     Bonus Feat
Level X:    20          75 (+6)        +1 att

The level progression is different, the max skill by level is different, the use of "Total Ranks" rather than skill points is different (because of cross-class skills) the increase of ranks with level advancement is different, and there are no caster classes. The system is still classed, I think, except for a magic system that belongs in a classless system. How is this not competing with standard D&D classes?

There are no 'spontaneous casters'. There aren't even 'casters' per se as a separate category, just characters who invest in the Arcana skill. I would imagine them usually prepping spells in advance, which is easier/more reliable, but they also have the option of casting spontaneously. Some might invest in feats which make that easier. Some might invest in feats that make prepping easier, or maybe reduce spell-point costs, etc. etc. Or maybe they dump points in weapon skills and play a Gish. That's up to the player.

This sounds like you want a classless system, but you've gone half way there by only making casting classless. Is that about the size of it? If so, it also eliminates half-caster classes like paladin and ranger so, again, it certainly is competing with standard D&D classes. Unless I'm still totally missing the point.

[Lacuna Caster]

This sounds like you want a classless system, but you've gone half way there by only making casting classless.

I'm probably just explaining myself badly again, but yes- the idea is that this would be an entirely classless system. You don't have paladins and rangers as permanently distinct categories, just folks who mostly dump skill points in Marksmanship or Close Combat, with some Faith in [X] on the side.

But no, it's not competing with standard D&D classes, because you wouldn't have any, per se. They can't be in competition if they're absent. :P

[jqavins]

Then I come back to what both Atlas Sniperman and I have said earlier: what you've got here is an original game system rather than a casting tweek. To ask for comments on the magic system before posting the full system's basics is putting the cart before the horse.

A classless system that uses some (or even a lot) of D&D building blocks is a fine idea. (It's probably been done before; search for such threads here in the Playground.)

[Paleomancer]

Another consideration is that tying all magic to a skill choice is essentially a skill point tax, as otherwise under this system one cannot use magic at all. Even Rogues, who usually depend on maximizing certain skills, have the majority of their class features independent of skill choice (save for trapfinding, I think). Given most casters have a measly base of 2 skill points per level, possibly 1 with a negative Intelligence score, this limits roleplay and mechanics significantly, to say nothing of other skills: Concentration is still vital and so might be Spellcraft (unless you grandfather their roles into your new skills), to say nothing of other skills.

That being said, this is an intriguing concept that I do like and think is promising (and I’d love to try out a functional skill-based magic spot). Some ideas to consider:

• Having multiple skills used to perform different schools of magic - Divination, Summoning, Alchemy, Invocation...
• Tying magic use to skill use as per Tome of Battle.
• What about cross-class users like fighters or rogues? Could they learn and wield more basic effects this way? Or participate in rituals? Possibly have a Scholar/Mage class who has an edge in using these skills.
• Allowing the skill to reduce or eliminate spell point costs/spell slots on really good successes; cantrips eventually are free (and weak) spells, and on success, more powerful spells are cast efficiently.
• What about Charisma-based casters? Sorcerers and Bards may not have optimal intelligence scores, so do they use a third skill - Channeling (for lack of a better score).
• Combining certain skills (like Concentration, Use Magic Device, and Spellcraft) into the appropriate skill (Arcana or Faith) to avoid casters having to maximize skill use and ending up even more cookiecutter-ish. In this case, one might even argue that completing spell trigger items requires a Use Magic Device-equivalent check rather than being nearly automatic.

Others might exist.

[jqavins]

The skill point issue is not one really, as the modified system gives all classes and characters the same number of skill points, without an Int mod. The need to optimize multiple skills (Arcana, Spellcraft, and Concentration) simultaneously, now that's an issue.

[Lacuna Caster]

• Having multiple skills used to perform different schools of magic - Divination, Summoning, Alchemy, Invocation...
• Tying magic use to skill use as per Tome of Battle.
• What about cross-class users like fighters or rogues? Could they learn and wield more basic effects this way? Or participate in rituals? Possibly have a Scholar/Mage class who has an edge in using these skills.
• Allowing the skill to reduce or eliminate spell point costs/spell slots on really good successes; cantrips eventually are free (and weak) spells, and on success, more powerful spells are cast efficiently.
• What about Charisma-based casters? Sorcerers and Bards may not have optimal intelligence scores, so do they use a third skill - Channeling (for lack of a better score).
• Combining certain skills (like Concentration, Use Magic Device, and Spellcraft) into the appropriate skill (Arcana or Faith) to avoid casters having to maximize skill use and ending up even more cookiecutter-ish. In this case, one might even argue that completing spell trigger items requires a Use Magic Device-equivalent check rather than being nearly automatic.

The last one, most likely: Arcana would certainly replace UMD/Spellcraft, and possibly Concentration. I like a lot of those ideas.

At the moment, the basic idea is that Sorcery is a feat-chain that you have to start taking during chargen- it's a natural talent, maybe with cha-based pre-reqs, but casting is broadly still Int-based. Not sure how to handle Bards. I will try to get back with some more concrete build-examples and details on, say the combat system, but probably not this weekend.

[Paleomancer]

The last one, most likely: Arcana would certainly replace UMD/Spellcraft, and possibly Concentration. I like a lot of those ideas.

At the moment, the basic idea is that Sorcery is a feat-chain that you have to start taking during chargen- it's a natural talent, maybe with cha-based pre-reqs, but casting is broadly still Int-based. Not sure how to handle Bards. I will try to get back with some more concrete build-examples and details on, say the combat system, but probably not this weekend.

If that is the case, and you still want to consider divine magic its own thing, consider having Faith (or for extra versimilitude, Thaumaturgy - literally means miracle working ) cover similar rules for divine spellcasters (Concentration, Use Magic Device, Spellcraft, all restricted to divine spells only, just as Arcana only applies to Arcane spells). Look forward to seeing more .

[Lacuna Caster]

Okay, time for some number-crunching.

Character-generation begins with selecting a class template and starting at a particular character level, which gives you a certain number of total skill points and a certain number of feats. Couple of notes:

* I'm not making a distinction between attributes and bonuses. i.e, Str 5 here == Str 20 in regular D&D.
* Dexterity is renamed 'Reflexes' to cover perception-checks, rather than being based off Wisdom.
* Strength is merged with Con. All combat skills are reflex-based, but Strength factors into prereqs for a variety of feats and weapons.
* 'Standing' is a base attribute to represent social status, a la Resources/Circles in Burning Wheel.
* No distinct saving throws, which I recall 4e/5e did away with anyway- you just use attributes.

Spoiler

Show

Core attributes:
  Strength
  Reflexes
  Intellect
  Wisdom
  Charisma
  Standing

Core skills:
  Close Combat  [Ref]
  Marksmanship  [Ref]
  Perception    [Ref]
  Evasion       [Ref]
  Athletics     [Str]
  
  Faith in  [X] [Wil]
  Truth Sense   [Wil]
  Command       [Cha]
  Persuasion    [Cha]
  
  Arcana        [Int]
  Knowledge [X] [Int]
  Crafting  [X] [Int]

Standing may start at 0, all other attributes must be between 1 and 5.
Attribute checks gain character level as a free bonus.

Hit Points = 10 + Level + (Strength x 2).  Can be boosted further with feats.
Characters are stricken at 0 HP, lose consciousness at -5, and die at -10.

          Max. Skill  Total Ranks      Other
Level 1:    6           15          2 Bonus Feats, 2 Class Feats
                                    15 points in attributes
Level 2:    8           20 (+5)        +1 att
Level 3:    10          25 (+5)     Bonus Feat
Level 4:    12          30 (+5)        +1 att
Level 5:    14          35 (+5)     Bonus Feat
Level 6:    16          40 (+5)        +1 att
Level 7:    17          45 (+5)     Bonus Feat
Level 8:    18          50 (+5)        +1 att
Level 9:    19          55 (+5)     Bonus Feat
Level X:    20          60 (+5)        +1 att

(I've tweaked the skill points progression with character levels, but it doesn't matter much for this example.) So, referring to some of the options in the OP... our hypothetical newbie PC might look like the following:

Achmed the Generic
  Background: Wizard
  Attributes:
    Strength  1
    Reflexes  3
    Intellect 5
    Wisdom    2
    Charisma  2
    Standing  2
  Skills:
    Arcana              6
    Perception          3
    Knowledge [History] 2
    Craft     [Alchemy] 4
  Feats:
    Sphere of Matter
    School Focus [Abjuration]
    Appraisal
    Eccentric Interests
  Gear:
    Arcane Staff +2
    Talisman of Recall
    Astrolabe
    Sulphur (uses x3)
    35 GP
  Other Stats:
    Hit Points: 13
    Spell Points: 11
    Income: 24 GP/month

.

Achmed has a baseline Arcana bonus of +11 from skill ranks and attributes, +2 for Evocation/Transmutation/Abjuration from Sphere of Matter, and +3 for Abjuration from School Focus. His Arcane Staff grants a further +2 bonus, and Sulphur can be expended as a +5 casting bonus for Evocation[Fire] spells.

So when he's prepping an Abjuration, Achmed has a +18 casting bonus, which is nearly enough to cast level 2 spells if he Takes 20, and more than sufficient if he takes x200 the normal casting time or has access to the facilities of a small studio. In fact, any second-level spell from the schools of Evocation, Transmutation or Abjuration should be accessible that way. He can also, in principle, prepare any second-level Evocation[Fire] spell by spending a dose of Sulphur.

He can cast any level-0 spell/cantrip spontaneously as long as he's in conditions calm enough to Take 10, and he has roughly a 25% chance to cast 1st-level Evo/Trans spells spontaneously in combat- or 40% for Abjurations.

I still don't have the combat system worked out fully, but I'd imagine it being fairly reminiscent of standard d20 hack'n'slash in the essentials- you just use Close Combat or Marksmanship instead of BAB/proficiency, rolling versus your opponent's passive Defence/AC by default, and roll for damage if you hit. HP progression is relatively anaemic, so I'd probably beef up some of the PCs' defensive options, and maybe add in some rock/paper/scissor maneuver contests a la Tome of Battle or Burning Wheel. But maybe it needs tweaking?

Anyway, I hope that clears up some of the confusion. I'll probably have a combat outline at some point this week.
.

[Lacuna Caster]

So, Imma steal BW's scripted combat system shamelessly and try to stuff it into D&D's turn-based grid-positioning system with a plunger.

Basic combat options are as described above (make a Close Combat or Marksmanship check vs. an opponent's Defence.) However, each time you take the Combat Expertise feat, you can pick 2 new techniques for use that tweak the formula. (Note that if either Defence/AC or a defensive skill test applies, the defender takes the better result. Defence by default is 10 + Reflexes + armour bonus.)

• Parry Stance: Roll Close Combat to defend against your opponent's attack with a +2 bonus. Even if your opponent succeeds, they cannot inflict more damage than their margin of success. You may attempt to deflect missile attacks as well, but at a -8 penalty.
  
• Block Stance: Roll Close Combat vs. opponent's attack roll with a +6 bonus. If you succeed, you do not thwart the attack, but add 2 + Strength to damage reduction up to your margin of success.
  
• Evade Stance: Roll either Close Combat or Evasion vs. your opponent's attack with a +1 bonus for every 5 feet of movement you have remaining. You must have room to move and not be immobilised.
  
• Power Strike: Add up to your Strength bonus to damage at a similar penalty to your Close Combat test. If you smash through a Block or Parry, you have a 50% chance to destroy their weapon or shield.
  
• Fencing Strike: Gain +3 to your Close Combat attack at a 1d4 damage penalty. If you managed to Parry or Block last turn, you may strike at the same opponent and suffer no damage penalty.
  
• Feint Strike: Gain a +5 test bonus and +2 damage vs. Parry or Block stance, but create an Opening otherwise. Optionally, test Persuasion vs. Truth Sense for another +/- 3 modifier.
  
• Etc., etc.

This is pretty melee focused and one can draw up a half-dozen more without much effort, but the gist is this: Stances are defensive postures that you use an action to ready and select in secret, which activate in response to enemy action. Direct strikes apply, well, directly during your turn, and for optimal performance you need to anticipate an opponent's stance and counter it appropriately.

Since BW's combat system is a little overwhelming for beginners, I'm hoping that parcelling it out in feat-based chunks will let players ease in gradually, and there's the usual gravy of specific weapon/armour proficiencies, plus passive bonuses like Mounted Combat, Sneak Attack or Parting Shot.

Oh, some sample weapons/armour, for the curious:

Swords & Daggers:
  Dagger:
    1d4 damage.  +4 to hit during Grapple, -2 otherwise.
    Edged or Piercing, as preferred.
  Shortsword:
    1d6 damage.  +2 to hit during Grapple, +2 to Disarm and Fencing.
    Need Str 2+.  Edged or Piercing, as preferred.
  Broadsword:
    1d8 damage.  +2 to Parry and Disarm.
    Need Str 3+.  Edged.
  Greatsword:
    1d12 damage. +2 to Cleave and Executioner.
    -3 to hit during Grapple.
    Need Str 4+, two-handed grip.  Edged, ignore 1 armour.

Other Melee Weapons:
  Spear:
    1d6 damage.  +2 to Parry and Opportunist.
    +4 vs. Charge, -4 to hit during Grapple.
    Throw at -3 penalty for 1d10 damage, ignore 1 armour.
    Need Str 2+.  Piercing.
  Axe:
    1d8 damage.  +2 to Cleave and Power Strike, -2 to Parry.
    Need Str 2+.  Edged.
  Staff:
    1d6 damage.  +2 to Parry, Opportunist and Low Blow.
    Need Str 2+, two-handed grip.  Blunt, ignore 1 DR.
  Mace or Poleaxe:
    1d8 damage.  +2 to Power Strike, -2 to Parry.
    Need Str 3+.  Blunt, ignore 1 DR.
  Morningstar or Flail:
    1d10 damage.  -2 to hit, cannot use to Block or Parry.
    Need Str 3+.  Blunt, ignores Shields, ignore 1 DR.

Armour Types:
  Leather:
    DR 1.  Defence +2.
    Encumbrance +5%.
  Scale or Chain:
    DR 2.  Defence +4.
    Need Str 2+.  Encumbrance +10%.
  Bracers & Greaves:
    Defence +2.  Cannot combine with Full Plate.
    Encumbrance +5%.
  Full Plate:
    Need Shield & Plate feat.
    DR 1, or 3 vs. Edged & Piercing damage.  Defence +6.
    Need Str 3+.  Encumbrance +25%.
  Open Helm:
    +2 vs. Executioner and Sneak Attack.  Defence +1.
  Full Helm:
    DR +1, -2 to Perception.  Defence +2.
    Encumbrance +5%.

[Lacuna Caster]

So- returning to the original topic, let's try another caster example-

Agnes the Regular
  Background: Paladin
  
  Alignment & Experience:
    Vow of Chastity +1
    Vow of Fealty   +3
    Vow of Mercy    +1
    Law/Chaos +3, Good/Evil +1
    Level 1, 4 XP
  
  Attributes:
    Strength  3
    Reflexes  4
    Intellect 3
    Wisdom    3
    Charisma  2
    Standing  1
  Skills:
    Close Combat      4
    Faith in [God]    6
    Athletics         2
    Command           2
    Knowledge [Latin] 1
  Feats:
    Sense Evil
    Lay Hands
    Weapon Expertise [Sword, Spear]
    Shield & Plate
  
  Domain Spells:
    Close Wounds
    Purge Affliction
    Commandment
    Mark of Justice
    Exorcism
    Discern Lies
  Gear:
    Two-Handed Sword +2, Javelins x4
    Full Plate & Cloak
    Crucifix & Prayer Beads, Latin Bible
    Rations x5, 10 GP
  Other Stats:
    Hit Points: 18
    Spell Points: 14
    Income: 4 GP/month

So here, if Agnes wants to cast a level 1 Commandment spell to cow the unrighteous, she adds her Wisdom +3 to 6 ranks in Faith, along with a +5 bonus for her Vows, for a total divine casting bonus of +14. Given adequate casting time to pray for this blessing, she can do this without particular trouble. If Agnes spends an action to fish out and brandish her crucifix first, she gets a +5 spontaneous casting bonus (this does not apply if she Takes 10 or Takes 20.)

The Lay Hands feat provides a +3 bonus for any divine spells cast at touch range and ensures they do not create an Opening, so her casting bonus for a level 0 Close Wounds orison, converting 1d4 damage to fatigue and providing a +2 bonus to Craft[Healing], is +17 vs. a casting DC of 20. She can do this easily if she has the chance to take 10, and has an 85% chance to cast spontaneously in battle.

Sense Evil provides a bonus to Divination spells and defensive skill tests matching 2x an opponent's Eeeevilness, so a +5 Evil target would grant her a +10 bonus to casting Discern Lies. The feat also allows corresponding at-will Detect spells.

Agnes advances her Vows by adhering to them under conditions where it entails clear risk, cost or complication, up to +5 (some guidelines for handling this may be specified per vow.) Similar mechanics apply for advancing Good/Evil and Law/Chaos, if the players care to track such things independently of a given God's favour.

Gross violations of a particular Vow sufficient to incur her patron's displeasure may, at the GM's discretion, knock the Vow's rating down by 1 and apply a -5 cumulative casting penalty until suitable atonement is performed. If all Vows taken are in breach, she cannot cast divine spells at all.


Or, for another example:

Bjorn the Illustrative
  Background: Fighter, Level 1
  
  Attributes:
    Strength  5
    Reflexes  3
    Intellect 1
    Wisdom    1
    Charisma  3
    Standing  2
  Skills:
    Close Combat          5
    Athletics             2
    Command               2
    Persuasion            3
    Faith in [Heimdall]   2
    Knowledge [Mythology] 1
  Feats:
    Bardic Arts
    Combat Expertise [Press, Feint]
    Carouser
    Word of Honour
  
  Beliefs & Alignment:
    Vow of Bravery   +2
    Vow of Honour    +1
    Oathkeeper's Vow +1
    Law/Chaos +2, Good/Evil -1
  
  Domain Spells:
    Ballad of Courage
    Epic of Lore
    Hymn of Devotion
    Song of Love
    Bless Weapon
    Shield of Faith
  Gear:
    Broadsword +1
    Steel Gauntlet
    Scale Mail & Full Helm
    Horn of Battle
    Flagon of Mead (uses x2)
    5 GP
  Other Stats:
    Hit Points: 22
    Spell Points: 7
    Income: 8 GP/month

Bjorn can use his Bardic Arts feat to prepare spells without access to a spellbook or holy text, while using his Persuasion or Command skill to weave Song-spells to, e.g, bolster morale or court romantic partners, provided he has time to perform without undue distractions. (Carouser grants an effective +5 bonus to social skills while he and others subjects are drunk, so that's usually a good opportunity.)

His direct divine casting bonus is fairly modest, with just 2 ranks in Faith and Wisdom +1, but a +4 bonus from his Vows helps. And with +3 Persuasion, +3 Charisma and a +5 bonus from Bardic Arts, he has an 80% chance of correctly intoning a DC 15 Hymn of Devotion for a one-off +10 prayer bonus, allowing him to access first-level divine spells with some regularity.

A modest degree of group prayer from his amiable fellows for a further +5 bonus can even allow prepping a second-level spell. (+7 for ranks, wis and vows, +10 for song bonus, +5 for group prayer by 10 people, total +22. By taking 20 he can meet the DC of 40 for a 2nd-level spell.)



EDIT: I think that covers the basics for everything aside from Monks and a Sorcerer example(?), and maybe some specific rules for negotiating Pacts with an evil/demonic patron.
.

[johnbragg]

Part of the reason why I'd like to generalise the rules on augmenting spellcasting is so that low-level characters can use them too- e.g, if your buddy rogue just got bit by a werewolf, the party's junior cleric might not be able to cast 'remove curse' by themselves, but maybe if you get them to the village chapel and ask the parishioners to hold hands and pray to pelor you can wring out enough of a casting bonus to do the job. (Also, HeroWars has extensive rules for this sort of thing, which I rather like.)

I know I was working on something like this, but I don't know if I ever finished it. I'll check my posting history to see what I had up that alley.

I was definitely working on a mechanic where the chanting cultists actually had a game effect.

EDIT: I apparently didn't finish that. But I have something for you. You can cast whatever spell you like by passing a Spellcraft check. But if you're doing it on an amateur basis (not using your class abilities, spell slots, etc) then you take backlash--d6 Constitution damage per spell level. (3.5 is assumed here--the ability damage is not permanent) Where the chanting cultists come in is you form a coven, or an anima pool, or a magic circle or whatever you'd like to call it. Everyone who joins the pool takes an equal share of the backlash damage. (Exactly like the end of Guardians of the Galaxy.)

So you can have everybody clap Tinkerbell back to life, which is sweet and adorable and everything--but when it works, the kids feel like they've been run over by a truck.

[Lacuna Caster]

I was definitely working on a mechanic where the chanting cultists actually had a game effect...

...So you can have everybody clap Tinkerbell back to life, which is sweet and adorable and everything--but when it works, the kids feel like they've been run over by a truck.

I *did* have an outline for Sorcery feats and Necromancy rules that would exact a cost in terms of exhaustion/injury, but those were more intended for an individual caster than the group as a whole. In the case of group prayer, I'd imagined that anyone participating is a genuine and semi-regular worshipper of the deity/pantheon being petitioned, even if they're not ordained as clergy, so it wouldn't typically be the case that a party of random misfits can hold hands and pray to Pelor.

It might be interesting to add some feats or rule options that merge the two effects, but bear in mind that the rules for Sacrifice allow for offerings of blood, and they don't all have to come from one source- if you and a bunch of buddies are all willing to slit their veins above the altar, Wee Jas is happy to accept that currency.


Ah, actually, that gives me an idea for how Monks should work: In essence, they're clerics without a God, focused on cultivating the divine essence within themselves. They can't harness either group prayer or sacrifice mechanics, but they do get some nifty benefits (Purity of X, etc.) based on progression with respect to the Vows they take, and can never be stripped of their powers. Capstone allows them to reincarnate at will, travel the planes, et cetera et cetera.

[noob]

I *did* have an outline for Sorcery feats and Necromancy rules that would exact a cost in terms of exhaustion/injury, but those were more intended for an individual caster than the group as a whole. In the case of group prayer, I'd imagined that anyone participating is a genuine and semi-regular worshipper of the deity/pantheon being petitioned, even if they're not ordained as clergy, so it wouldn't typically be the case that a party of random misfits can hold hands and pray to Pelor.

It might be interesting to add some feats or rule options that merge the two effects, but bear in mind that the rules for Sacrifice allow for offerings of blood, and they don't all have to come from one source- if you and a bunch of buddies are all willing to slit their veins above the altar, Wee Jas is happy to accept that currency.


Ah, actually, that gives me an idea for how Monks should work: In essence, they're clerics without a God, focused on cultivating the divine essence within themselves. They can't harness either group prayer or sacrifice mechanics, but they do get some nifty benefits (Purity of X, etc.) based on progression with respect to the Vows they take, and can never be stripped of their powers. Capstone allows them to reincarnate at will, travel the planes, et cetera et cetera.

That description of the dnd monk is weird because now it overlaps with godless clerics which are a thing too.
Also it does not fits with real life usual monk description(always people with a religion and very often with a god)

[Lacuna Caster]

That description of the dnd monk is weird because now it overlaps with godless clerics which are a thing too.
Also it does not fits with real life usual monk description(always people with a religion and very often with a god)

I don't disagree, exactly, but... the problem I see with the D&D monk at the moment is that it's... a mess, thematically speaking. If they worship a God or are otherwise religious figures like real-world monks, then they should be getting divine spells like clerics and paladins. If they're just martial artists specialising in unarmed combat, they should be a type of fighter, and I don't recall those ever get access to Chi abilities, which looks very similar to positive energy regardless. And then you've got the whole problem with east/west flavour dissonance.

So basically, what I'm aiming for here is to specifically capture the east-asian/vedic buddhist tradition. You might acknowledge and even revere specific Gods as powerful and virtuous beings (most east-asian religious practice is highly syncretic), but the buddhist perspective is that Gods are in the same boat with lesser mortals as prisoners of the cycle of death and rebirth. Their ultimate aim is to escape from the meatgrinder of history entirely... and maybe come back to help others get out.

Point being that the different components of the D&D monk would be handled by distinct skills and feat-chains that don't need to be lumped together in one package. The unarmed combat & dodge-perks are just part of regular combat feats. The spooky supernatural abilities are mostly just regular divine magic. The 'religion without a God' part is what gets a few special rules specific to either Monks or Animism (forgot about Druids.)

General rules for religious syncretism (e.g, pantheon worship, or combining polytheism with animism or ancestor-worship) are something I still need to address, but that's the broad idea.

[Lacuna Caster]

One more example for completeness' sake:

Parvati the Atypical
  Background: Priest
  
  Attributes:
    Strength  2
    Reflexes  2
    Intellect 3
    Wisdom    4
    Charisma  4
    Standing  0
  Skills:
    Faith in [Shakti] 3
    Arcana            4
    Persuasion        3
    Truth Sense       5
  Feats:
    Sorcerous Blood [Nephilim]
    School Focus [Enchantment]
    Voice of the Pulpit
    Theology [Shakti]
  
  Alignment & Experience:
    Vow of Peace    +2
    Vow of Poverty  +3
    Enemy: Caste System
    Law/Chaos: -2, Good/Evil +3
    Level 1, 7 XP
  
  Known Spells:
    Close Wounds
    Libation
    Word of Peace
    Alter Mood
    Holding
    Slumber
    Detection
    Foresight
    Seeming
  Gear:
    Robes & Begging Bowl
    Chakra Wheel
  Other Stats:
    Hit Points: 15
    Spell Points: 11
    Income: 0 GP/month

Parvati has a baseline 4 + 3 in Faith, and 3 + 4 in Arcana. Her Vows give her a +5 bonus to faith-casting, allowing her to access 1st-level divine spells, and with her school focus +3, she can access 1st-level enchantments. Fairly straightforward.

Her Sorcerous Blood allows her to apply the Exhausting Spell option, granting a +10 bonus at the cost of 5 extra spell points and 25 fatigue (which rolls over to 15 fatigue and 10 injury, knocking her out cold.) But it'll allow access to 2nd-level- or, if she follows the usual arcane prep rules and takes x2000 the usual casting time- even a 3rd-level arcane enchantment. (A 1-minute default casting time seems fair, with Quickened Spell allowing for 1-round results, so x2000 works out to about 32 hours, or 4 days allowing for rest & sleep.)

I'm inclining to the view that arcane and divine spell points should be tracked separately, but I'm not sure I like the extra bookkeeping. It might also be nice if Nephilim could apply sorcery feats toward divine spells or otherwise get some synergy between the two, but I might be getting ahead of myself...

So, while I'm cribbing from burning wheel, some provisional rules for social conflicts:

Spoiler

Show

All parties involved in the debate sort into teams and nominate a spokesperson. (Teams of 1 are also fine.) By default, each round, each spokesperson selects an action in secret, then reveals their actions and rolls Persuasion vs. Persuasion.

Body of Argument = 10 + character level + Cha bonus.

Point
  Make a direct statement or argument in favour of your position.
  vs. Lead, roll vs. DC of 0.  Half margin damages BoA.
  vs. Rebuttal, roll vs. opponent.  Half margin damages BoA.
  Otherwise, roll vs. DC of 10.  Half margin damages BoA.

Rebuttal
  Counter an opponent's argument with your own.
  vs. Point, roll vs. opponent.  Margin restores your BoA.
  vs. Lead, you may not test.
  Otherwise, roll vs. DC of 10.  Half Margin restores your BoA.

Lead
  Expose a weakness with a leading question or implication or two.
  vs. Rebuttal, roll vs. DC of 0.  Half margin damages BoA.
  vs. Point, you may not test.
  Otherwise, roll vs. DC of 10.  Half margin damages BoA.

Digression
  Bring in extraneous information to make an indirect point or distraction.
  Roll vs. opponent.  Spend margin on effects-
  5 points:   Add +3 to next roll of self or an ally.
  5 points:   Add 1 to your own BoA, apply -2 penalty to opponent's next roll.
  10 points:  Your opponent is engrossed and takes no action next turn.

Supporting Argument
  You agree with or back up a colleague's argument.
  Roll vs. DC of 10.
  Add 1/4 margin of success to ally's next argument.

Body of Argument Modifiers
  Terms offered are very good: +10
  Terms offered are good: +5
  Terms offered are mean: -5
  Terms offered are very mean: -10
  Subject is a soulmate: +10
  Subject is a steady ally: +5
  Subject is friendly: +2
  Subject is unfriendly: -2
  Subject is a known enemy: -5
  Subject is a nemesis: -10

Other Modifiers
  Fresh Evidence:  +4 to single roll.
  Repetition:      -4 penalty (cumulative).
  Deceit:          May roll vs. Truth Sense to lie, lose action otherwise.
  Threats/Insult:  Add +5 to roll, -2 to BoA and next roll.

[Giegue]

I once made something similar to what your doing, or rather had an idea for it, so I appreciate what your doing. However, from what little I have seen Charisma is a auto-dump for basically every single character in your system I apologize in advance if this is not the case; I don't have all the information and there could be something I don't know about that makes Charisma a pretty sweet score to have. However, without charisma-based spellcasting, it just seems to me that Charisma will be dumped by basically everybody because what the other stats give you are far, far, far, far more valuable than anything Cha can. Dex helps you go first in combat, lets you used ranged weapons, and helps you not die by boosting your AC and Ref saves. Str unlocks better melee weapons and lets you carry more loot. Con really helps you not die. Int gives you more skill points, and governs arcane casting. Wis helps you not die by boosting Will saves and Perception, and governs divine casting. Cha gives you...a bonus to some skills that you might not even use if your doing a hardcore dungeon crawl with little-no negotiation and downtime. Simply put, Cha is a stat thats utterly useless compared to the others under this system in all but niche'/narrow cases and specific kinds of games, which I feel is a bad thing. As it stands, pretty much every character will want to dump that cha right into the ground, as they will largely feel no ill-effects for doing so, meaning that dumping cha ammounts to free Str, Dex, Con, Int, or Wis. This is not good desgin, but thankfully there are two really simple things that could be done to fix this.

A) Make Will saves run off Cha. Wisdom is already a pretty stacked ability score, between governing divine casting and the god skill that is perception, so moving will saves to being based on Cha would throw Cha a bone it sorely needs while not really changing the system in a big way, and it makes sense from a themeatic standpoint for Cha to be the stat to resist mind control.

OR

B) I noticed that druidic casting seems to be missing from your game. While I assume its just a subset of divine magic, there are a lot of druid fans that may not like that. Even further, I think in terms of lore that Drudic magic is distinct enough from cleric magic that it being a third skill would not be strange. I personally think that having three magic skills, each based off one of the mental stats, helps to make Cha less useless in more combat-focused games. It would also make a nice trifecta of casting types, and match up to Pathfinder 2e's divison of Arcane, Divine and Primal magic. So what is this proposition? Make a third, wisdom-based casting skill for Druidic magic, and swap cleric magic to being a Charisma skill. From a lore standpoint, priestly magic being cha-based makes sense. Strength of belief always struck me as a Cha-thing rather than a Wis-thing, and if you go with "divine magic comes from strength of belief" as your excuse than Cha-based cleric casting totally works. Likewise, priests strike me as very likely to be charismatic individuals, who will give rousing sermons and lead the faithful, so this would make sense, at least to me.

Of course, I could be totally wrong, and maybe you do have a way to make Cha useful in combat that I don't know about. So I apologize if I offend you coming from the ignorant position I am, thats not my intent. However, this is just something that deeply worries me about what you have thus far, as I don't find that having one stat thats clearly worse than every other one in almost every way possible is bad design.

[Lacuna Caster]

I once made something similar to what your doing, or rather had an idea for it, so I appreciate what your doing. However, from what little I have seen Charisma is a auto-dump for basically every single character in your system I apologize in advance if this is not the case; I don't have all the information and there could be something I don't know about that makes Charisma a pretty sweet score to have. However, without charisma-based spellcasting, it just seems to me that Charisma will be dumped by basically everybody because what the other stats give you are far, far, far, far more valuable than anything Cha can. Dex helps you go first in combat, lets you used ranged weapons, and helps you not die by boosting your AC and Ref saves. Str unlocks better melee weapons and lets you carry more loot. Con really helps you not die. Int gives you more skill points, and governs arcane casting. Wis helps you not die by boosting Will saves and Perception, and governs divine casting. Cha gives you...a bonus to some skills that you might not even use if your doing a hardcore dungeon crawl with little-no negotiation and downtime. Simply put, Cha is a stat thats utterly useless compared to the others under this system in all but niche'/narrow cases and specific kinds of games, which I feel is a bad thing. As it stands, pretty much every character will want to dump that cha right into the ground, as they will largely feel no ill-effects for doing so, meaning that dumping cha ammounts to free Str, Dex, Con, Int, or Wis. This is not good desgin, but thankfully there are two really simple things that could be done to fix this.

A) Make Will saves run off Cha. Wisdom is already a pretty stacked ability score, between governing divine casting and the god skill that is perception, so moving will saves to being based on Cha would throw Cha a bone it sorely needs while not really changing the system in a big way, and it makes sense from a themeatic standpoint for Cha to be the stat to resist mind control.

OR

B) I noticed that druidic casting seems to be missing from your game. While I assume its just a subset of divine magic, there are a lot of druid fans that may not like that. Even further, I think in terms of lore that Drudic magic is distinct enough from cleric magic that it being a third skill would not be strange. I personally think that having three magic skills, each based off one of the mental stats, helps to make Cha less useless in more combat-focused games. It would also make a nice trifecta of casting types, and match up to Pathfinder 2e's divison of Arcane, Divine and Primal magic. So what is this proposition? Make a third, wisdom-based casting skill for Druidic magic, and swap cleric magic to being a Charisma skill. From a lore standpoint, priestly magic being cha-based makes sense. Strength of belief always struck me as a Cha-thing rather than a Wis-thing, and if you go with "divine magic comes from strength of belief" as your excuse than Cha-based cleric casting totally works. Likewise, priests strike me as very likely to be charismatic individuals, who will give rousing sermons and lead the faithful, so this would make sense, at least to me.

Of course, I could be totally wrong, and maybe you do have a way to make Cha useful in combat that I don't know about. So I apologize if I offend you coming from the ignorant position I am, thats not my intent. However, this is just something that deeply worries me about what you have thus far, as I don't find that having one stat thats clearly worse than every other one in almost every way possible is bad design.

I think that's a valid analysis and a perfectly reasonable concern. I'm hoping that social conflicts of one form or another will be regular enough that it's a stat worth investing in, but my hopes in that area are mostly predicated on some assumptions about campaign structure and inter-PC conflicts that I haven't really articulated yet. (e.g, that stuffing PCs with radically different alignments into the same 'party' should expectably lead to significant in-character disagreements.)

Charisma should also factor into the following:
* Bardic arts & performances, which are essentially a type of low-cost/subtle magic.
* Most uses of Enchantment spells, since making requests seem reasonable makes them harder to resist.
* Exorcism and Planar-Ally spells, since you basically have to talk the subjects into coming or going.
* 'Social capital' during character creation, which allows you to create/nominate NPC allies.

(Minor errata: Con is merged with Str and there's no Int bonus for skill points, they're simply fixed by level. Perception is based off Reflexes, formerly known as Dex, while Truth Sense is based off Wisdom.)

For Druids in particular, I do have some rough notes for Animism as an alternative mode of worship- basically rooting their power in a particular 'sacred ground' or natural location where they are particularly strong, but leaving them weak if they stray too far from their favoured territory or preferred habitat, which might or might not be combined with the worship of a particular deity. There will probably be a 'school' of nature-themed divine spells available as well.

Other than that... I need to work out ancestor worship and syncretic polytheism, but that's the rough outline.

[Lacuna Caster]

Okay, loose sketch of the mechanics here:

Animism/Druidism:

• Players should select a preferred terrain type (jungle, desert, shallows, etc.), then select a sacred site within that terrain, which should be an eye-catching natural feature of the landscape.
• If you are within a mile of your sacred site, you gain a +10 bonus to casting or preparing domain spells. For each mile you go outside it, but within the same terrain, the bonus drops by 1.
• If you are outside of your favoured terrain entirely, you suffer a -5 casting and preparation penalty. If you are in a particularly barren or polluted landscape (which often includes large cities and dungeons), you suffer a -10 penalty.
• Animists may typically avail of both Group Prayer and Sacrifice as normal, but only with worshippers of the same sacred site, and only at their sacred site. Their powers can never be entirely stripped, however.
• Conjuration spells such as Planar Ally or Commune cannot contact Outsiders, but may be used to summon, speak with and bind animals, ancients and fae within your favoured landscape. Due to their attachment to the material plane, Animists are particularly likely to reincarnate on death.
• Vows that relate to protecting sacred ground and preserving the natural landscape count toward your state of grace.

Syncretic Worship and Greater and Lesser Deities:

• Less powerful patrons (such as heroic demigods and revered ancestors) are easier to contact with Commune spells and to bargain with for pacts (see below), but have corresponding limits on the spells they can grant. Each -1 reduction in maximum spell level (below 9) grants a +2 bonus to Communing with said patron.
• Particularly powerful patrons (such as the primary focus of an extensive monotheist church or henotheist cult, or the head of a pantheon) grant a +3 bonus to all domain spellcasting, but impose a -5 penalty to unsolicited Commune spells.
• A single character may apply their Faith toward multiple deities, but must devote at least one Vow toward each, and counts their bonuses for each deity separately when it comes to domain access and spell preparation. (If they adopt a new deity during play, Vows start off in a state of 'breach' and must be confirmed through 'atonement'.)
• For gameplay purposes, Deities that compose a 'tight' pantheon may be treated as a single patron with their own Vows and Domain spells, though actual use of Commune spells (see below) may reveal multiple participants in any dialog.

Patronage, Commune and Pacts:

• Patrons will generally allow Commune spells to query for information or perhaps bargain for services. At the GM's discretion, a dialog check or full social conflict scene may be run to agree on terms or solicit hidden secrets. Each spell level the patron can grant increases their Body of Argument by 2, in addition to the usual modifiers for subordinates speaking to superiors.
• Certain patrons may allow Commune to establish a Pact, granting a bonus to other spellcasting in exchange for a particular ad-hoc service or desired condition. Each +5 bonus to subsequent casting correspondingly increases the patron's Body of Argument. Once agreed on, this Pact must be fulfilled in a timely manner or the caster's powers may be rescinded, in addition to any other stipulations the patron may have imposed.

I should have rules for Monastic worship over the next couple of days, but I like the idea of Monk-beliefs and Animism being opposite or at least complementary/symmetric: One is specifically focused on spiritual reverence for some aspect of the material/biological world with a high chance of rapid reincarnation on death, while the other is focused on spiritual detachment from the material/biological world with the hope of escaping reincarnation.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Animism/Druidism:

• Players should select a preferred terrain type (jungle, desert, shallows, etc.), then select a sacred site within that terrain, which should be an eye-catching natural feature of the landscape.
• If you are within a mile of your sacred site, you gain a +10 bonus to casting or preparing domain spells. For each mile you go outside it, but within the same terrain, the bonus drops by 1.

Characters tied to specific locations tend to make for bad adventuring characters, so instead of the character choosing one particular sacred site to be their "home base" I'd suggest that every terrain region have a particular natural feature that would serve as a sacred site, and that characters could have some ability to find or sense that location. So Joe Forest Druid might grow up in Kokiri Forest and use the Great Deku Tree as his sacred site, but if he travels to the Dire Wood he can sense the presence of the Grandfather Tree and use that as a sacred site.

Perhaps they could even sense sacred sites in other terrain regions, even if they can't make use of them; a desert druid would probably be able to sense the power in Stonehenge and an ocean druid be able to sense the power in Mount Doom even if (and especially if) their powers are opposed. That would fit more with the animistic side of things, where certain terrain features have powerful spirits and powerful magic, rather than a site being sacred merely because a druid circle chose it.

[Lacuna Caster]

Characters tied to specific locations tend to make for bad adventuring characters, so instead of the character choosing one particular sacred site to be their "home base" I'd suggest that every terrain region have a particular natural feature that would serve as a sacred site, and that characters could have some ability to find or sense that location.

Yeah, that's probably fair. I think I'm leaning more toward the 'roots in the area' paradigm for party generation- even the 5e DMG seems to suggest this by default- but being able to sense places of power in different countries does sound rather nifty.

My 'pick a terrain and pick a place' phrasing is mostly intended from a meta-perspective- it's not that one particular Druid or even a whole coven picked somewhere at random and made it sacred, it's that the player is either picking from a list of sites prepped by the GM or proactively inventing a little chunk of setting during chargen.

[Lacuna Caster]

...And, finally, monk progression, based off the Meditation feat. The specifics of the Vows could probably be tailored for each monastic order, so these are merely stereo/typical examples- another might insist on self-flagellation, or the memorisation of difficult sutras, or total non-violence, et cetera. But a Monk must take 1 to 3 Vows, one each concerned with the Body, the Mind, and the Soul.

Spoiler

Show

Vow of the Body:
  No sexual congress.  No alcohol, tobacco or other drugs.  No meat, no luxuries, etc.
  +1:  +5 bonus to resist disease, poison & paralysis, natural healing doubled, +1 DR.
  +3:  Gain +2 DR, +2 regeneration per round, and +5 spell resistance.
  +5:  May enter suspended animation, immune to disease, poison, aging & paralysis.

Vow of the Mind:
  At least 1 hour devoted to Meditation per day per level of the Vow.
  +1:  +5 bonus to resist illusion & enchantment, add Wis to spell points, +2 to Int-skills.
  +3:  Immune to mind-affecting spells & effects, gain +1 bonus to mental attributes.
  +5:  You may roll twice for all Int or Wis-based skill tests.

Vow of the Soul:
  No actions based on anger, grief or fear.  No lies or disrespect.  Minimal use of force, etc.
  +1:  Recall 1 L1 past life, gain 20% bonus XP with each level.
  +3:  Recall 1 L3 past life, immune to level loss from spells or revival.
  +5:  Recall 1 L5 past life, not bound to any plane on death, gain XP normally while dead.

Meditation
  Faith DC to meditate is (10 + 1 x hours spent).
  Time spent on meditation counts twice toward rest and recovery.
  Each hour in excess grants a +1 bonus to any single test where you Take 20.
  May gain 1 bonus XP during downtime, or make a morale check to remove stress.

Past Lives
  Invent a new character with appropriate skills and feats for their level.
  Reflect on their place in history, and how their karma affected your next incarnation.
  With a DC 20 Faith test, gain access to 1 feat or skill for purposes of 1 test or action.

Transcendance
  Requires +10 bonus from all 3 vows.
  You may convert as many character levels as you wish to Outsider levels, and travel at will between planes.
  Perfect recollection of all memories and past lives, min. rank 10 in all skills.

Some of this feels a bit ad-hoc at the moment, but that's the overall picture.