Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVII

[rrgg]

The borderers or Border Reivers were more or less geurillas/counter insurgency not full scale warfare, so their equipment shouldn’t be taken as indicative of open warfare. It’s a really interesting conflict but a lot of the fighting was done in the context of cattle raids or clan revenge. Lots of low status, or relatively low status, fighters and the equipment is optimized for fast travel often at short notice.

I highly recommend George Macdonald Fraser’s “The Steel Bonnets” for anyone wanting to start down that rabbit hole

To clarify the actual border reivers still existed but during Elizabeth's reign they were also being incorporated into the English army with somewhat standard equipment and saw some service on the continent and in Ireland though they were still called "Borderers". They were also sometimes referred to as "spears" or "spearmen" due to the fact that they typically fought with long spears rather than lances and according to Sir Roger Williams in 1590 the English practice at the time was to field as many as 1000 of them per 200 lancers, though he was advocating phasing them out in favor of mounted harquebusiers and more lancers.

Sir John Smythe mentioned that he thought the borderers should be armed with a helmet, breastplate, backplate, and mail sleeves without any mention of a shield, though this is presumably what he saw as ideal rather than standard practice.

[Pauly]

Those saddles are interesting... I have read about medieval military saddles having extensive front and back areas to keep a rider on the horse, but I think this is the first time I've noticed that kind of saddle in a painting.

You know, it strikes me that getting hit by an enemy lance while in one of those could cause some pretty bad back injuries, unless you redirect most of the force. Which is still better than being unhorsed and stabbed in the face by daggers, I suppose.

Choose your poison:
Getting held in place and suffering severe lumbar compression; or
Falling to the ground in full armor from horseback.
The people who lived it seem to have universally held that the former is preferable to the latter.

Although it probably isn’t that much of a difference for a full direct hit it seems like it would make a big difference for glancing or partial hits.

[Vinyadan]

Well, after enough force is applied, the lance does break... so there is an upper limit to how much you would hurt your back with the saddle.

[Pauly]

To clarify the actual border reivers still existed but during Elizabeth's reign they were also being incorporated into the English army with somewhat standard equipment and saw some service on the continent and in Ireland though they were still called "Borderers". They were also sometimes referred to as "spears" or "spearmen" due to the fact that they typically fought with long spears rather than lances and according to Sir Roger Williams in 1590 the English practice at the time was to field as many as 1000 of them per 200 lancers, though he was advocating phasing them out in favor of mounted harquebusiers and more lancers.

Sir John Smythe mentioned that he thought the borderers should be armed with a helmet, breastplate, backplate, and mail sleeves without any mention of a shield, though this is presumably what he saw as ideal rather than standard practice.

I haven’t read too much about the post unification regular service Border Reivers. What you’ve said makes it sound similar to the Cossacks in Russian service in the Napoleonic wars. Not fully equipped for modern warfare and you need large numbers of them to be useful on the battlefield. And the military minds wanted to regularize and modernize them.

[Vinyadan]

As an aside, some time ago there was some talk about how ancient Greek statues were painted, and I found that this archer was oddly coloured, because Greeks used a far darker colour to represent men, for example, with theatre masks. The reconstruction of this other statue is much closer to the colour I was talking about (contains nude statues): http://www.laricerca.loescher.it/art...one-prada.html
It's possible that the archer was paler because he wasn't Greek.

[Pauly]

As an aside, some time ago there was some talk about how ancient Greek statues were painted, and I found that this archer was oddly coloured, because Greeks used a far darker colour to represent men, for example, with theatre masks. The reconstruction of this other statue is much closer to the colour I was talking about (contains nude statues): http://www.laricerca.loescher.it/art...one-prada.html
It's possible that the archer was paler because he wasn't Greek.

He’s wearing a Phrygian cap, so that puts his origin as most likely from the balkans (eg Thrace) or Anatolia,

[Kiero]

He’s wearing a Phrygian cap, so that puts his origin as most likely from the balkans (eg Thrace) or Anatolia,

The gorytos and bow suggest he's supposed to be a Skythian.

[Martin Greywolf]

Choose your poison:
Getting held in place and suffering severe lumbar compression; or
Falling to the ground in full armor from horseback.
The people who lived it seem to have universally held that the former is preferable to the latter.

Although it probably isn’t that much of a difference for a full direct hit it seems like it would make a big difference for glancing or partial hits.

I did have an opportunity to talk to a few people who do or did jousting in the past, and from what they tell me, falling down in armor isn't an issue by itself - you'll be perfectly okay with just a bit of martial training, unless you wear a kettle hat and hit the brim in a weird way.

The real issue is that in a charge, you'll not be thrown to the ground and mobbed by infantry, you will fall to the ground, will be trampled to hell and back by all the horses around and then, if you can still move, possibly be mobbed by infantry.

Another reason for these saddles is bracing for lance impacts - go to that picture and note how their legs are positioned, they are straight and bracing against stirrups, with the back bracing surface being the saddle.

Another neat thing about raised front of the saddle, and one that was very important to modern jousters, was that it stops lance accidentally redirected downwards from obliterating your crotch. This may have been less of a factor historically, what with lances not made to break on contact tipped with sharp steel, but I think we'll have a hard time finding volunteers to test this.

Nad this last bit is purely personal anecdotes, so take it with some reservations, but: apparently, raised saddle won't get you that much trouble unless you really mess up in a joust - most of lance strikes will either brak or go to the side, redirected by shields or armor, and therefore won't bend you over. Even if they do, you'll not go far enough to break your back. The real trouble is if you want to fall off a horse on purpose because the script says so - that's really hard to almost impossible to do with that type of saddle (if you are falling off a horse, safest direction to go is back, followed by to the side), and people took to shortening or removing the back walls from their saddles to do it safely.

I imagine a lot of tournament jousting saddles weren't raised because jousting was supposed to showcase skill - they wanted it to be really easy to fall. Not the best approach for true combat. Modern jousting uses the low saddles for two major reasons (aside from historical accuracy for tournaments) - falling off a horse isn't very dangerous and looks cool, and second reason is... have you looked into how much a replica saddle costs? Those are extremely expensive, especially when combined with all of the other, horse-related expenses.

[HeadlessMermaid]

As an aside, some time ago there was some talk about how ancient Greek statues were painted, and I found that this archer was oddly coloured, because Greeks used a far darker colour to represent men, for example, with theatre masks. The reconstruction of this other statue is much closer to the colour I was talking about (contains nude statues): http://www.laricerca.loescher.it/art...one-prada.html
It's possible that the archer was paler because he wasn't Greek.

This archer is from a pediment on the Temple of Aphaea which depicts scenes from the Trojan war. He's supposed to be a Trojan archer, though not necessarily Paris (as he's commonly referred as). The temple is from ~500BCE, so the imagery they chose for the Trojans is probably a generic "warrior from the east", hence the cap and the trousers. They obviously couldn't go for historical accuracy even if they wanted to, and they weren't trying to depict specifically Phrygians or Scythians or whatever.

As for the colour reconstructions, I honestly don't know what to think of them. First of all, they're aesthetically irreverent and I love that. Second, the research behind them seems super solid, a lot of work has been put into it. BUT, third, I've seen some admittedly unconfirmed reports that they deliberately erred on the side of gaudy, precisely to end up with a "jarring" result and make the news. I don't know.

So it's possible the people of Aegina imagined the Trojans paler than them... but we have no undisputed frame of reference to make comparisons. At the end of the day, the colours we see today are educated guesses.

[PastorofMuppets]

In a Werewolf 20th edition game we had the idea of stealing a gasoline transport truck, filling a fire suppression helicopter with it and then dowsing an enemy encampment. We would then attempt an air raid/ fire bombing of the enemy werewolf camp with a mix of Molotov cocktails, emergency flares and some more magic spirit based ignition sources. The actual damage would be from all the airborn gasoline exploding and if it looked like anything survived we’d land and try to finish off the werewolves.

This plan got a hard no from the GM mostly because she didn’t want to think of the ramifications or the math involved but since this thread is here I figured I would run it by you folks. What sort of damage dice would an average forest fire suppression helicopters worth of dumped gasoline cause when dropped on a camp that is basically a park ranger cabin with some tents around it?

[tyckspoon]

This plan got a hard no from the GM mostly because she didn’t want to think of the ramifications or the math involved but since this thread is here I figured I would run it by you folks. What sort of damage dice would an average forest fire suppression helicopters worth of dumped gasoline cause when dropped on a camp that is basically a park ranger cabin with some tents around it?

I'd probably just use the system's standard rules for being on fire, whatever those are - there's no question you can dump a bunch of gasoline on everything and ignite it, but I doubt that you can control it well enough to get the right fuel-air ratio for it to actually explode in that fashion. Could be wrong, and if I am I'm sure my being Wrong On The Internet will summon an expert soon enough

[The Jack]

Oh you're playing pentex. Thats cool i guess.
Its not a good question for the thread.
Also i dont think you can get a trucks worth into a helicopter.

Followed by up to two or three levels of fire damage at difficulty 8 for... how long does fuel burn?

[DerKommissar]

This archer is from a pediment on the Temple of Aphaea which depicts scenes from the Trojan war. He's supposed to be a Trojan archer, though not necessarily Paris (as he's commonly referred as). The temple is from ~500BCE, so the imagery they chose for the Trojans is probably a generic "warrior from the east", hence the cap and the trousers. They obviously couldn't go for historical accuracy even if they wanted to, and they weren't trying to depict specifically Phrygians or Scythians or whatever.

As for the colour reconstructions, I honestly don't know what to think of them. First of all, they're aesthetically irreverent and I love that. Second, the research behind them seems super solid, a lot of work has been put into it. BUT, third, I've seen some admittedly unconfirmed reports that they deliberately erred on the side of gaudy, precisely to end up with a "jarring" result and make the news. I don't know.

So it's possible the people of Aegina imagined the Trojans paler than them... but we have no undisputed frame of reference to make comparisons. At the end of the day, the colours we see today are educated guesses.

I know some people who were working at the original "Bunte Götter" Exhibition and asked them about their opinion about the colored statues. Their critique in reference to the Archer and the reconstruction of the colors:

- There is no certainty, about all the griffons on his vest

- The color pattern is not entirely clear

- The color-material itself of the modern day painters might not be accurate, as it was done by archeologists, not restorers for e.g. stone paintings (though by people with a lot of experience with Lekythos [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lekythos] which can be very brightly colored)

- The analysis of the color pigments gave a rather crude overview as you can determine that smth was e.g. yellow, but it is a bit more difficult to determine the exact type of yellow

- It seems, that those clothings were made by a technique similar to Sprang (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprang), which permits only 3 types of colored thread to be used, so the "real" archers clothing (as in whatever clothing was the model for the original artists) is unlikely to be as colorful.

Nevertheless it was a very successfull exhibition and drew people who normally wouldnt care about statues into the museum and the research was done very sincerely. The above was only what they nitpicked about the historical accuraccy while admitting, that it was a very interesting idea.

Just thought I post that here while we have the discussion, as I found especially the last point (about the Sprang) quite interesting and it fits the topic of this thread :)

[Mr Beer]

In a Werewolf 20th edition game we had the idea of stealing a gasoline transport truck, filling a fire suppression helicopter with it and then dowsing an enemy encampment. We would then attempt an air raid/ fire bombing of the enemy werewolf camp with a mix of Molotov cocktails, emergency flares and some more magic spirit based ignition sources. The actual damage would be from all the airborn gasoline exploding and if it looked like anything survived we’d land and try to finish off the werewolves.

This plan got a hard no from the GM mostly because she didn’t want to think of the ramifications or the math involved but since this thread is here I figured I would run it by you folks. What sort of damage dice would an average forest fire suppression helicopters worth of dumped gasoline cause when dropped on a camp that is basically a park ranger cabin with some tents around it?

The air-borne gasoline isn't going to go up like a Fuel-Air Bomb, if that's what you're thinking. Really you are going to create the world's largest Molotov Cocktail, not that that's not cool.

Helicopter buckets go up to 9K+ litres according to google. I don't know how far 9 cubic metres of gasoline will spread around but say it moves out to a depth of about 5cm when you ignite it...that's a puddle 15 metres across. That puddle will burn for a while and I guess it will continue spreading out unless the surface is really absorbent.

Size of the camp, where the tents are placed, where the personnel are, what surface is being bombed with accelerant, how closely you coordinate the ignition and whether the enemy is asleep are all factors that matter here.

Worst case for your attack, if you dump the gasoline and start the ignition properly, I can't imagine anything less than devastation in a 20 x 20 metres area. Good chance you start a forest fire as well.

EDIT

Also according to google, large trucks typically carry 20K to 40K litres of gasoline whereas the 9K helicopter bucket is very much on the upper end. You might consider a relay of helicopters, each gradually adding to the inferno. Or a helicopter fleet that swoops down to deliver a full 40K litres in one go before the ignition trigger. That would cover a much larger area and do so more efficiently if it were well coordinated.

[Kaptin Keen]

The air-borne gasoline isn't going to go up like a Fuel-Air Bomb.

Shouldn't that be possible, though? Not that I'm particularly sure on the mechanics of fuel-air bombs, but as I understand it, you disperse fuel over a large area - then ignite it for a truly magnificient boom. Inspired, of all things, by flour explosions.

But shouldn't it, at least in principle, be possible to achieve the same result with gasoline? It is, after all, weirdly reminiscent of how an automobile engine works. Of course the problem might be to disperse the fuel without igniting it.

Anyways ... I was just wondering =)

[Brother Oni]

Oh you're playing pentex. Thats cool i guess.
Its not a good question for the thread.
Also i dont think you can get a trucks worth into a helicopter.

Followed by up to two or three levels of fire damage at difficulty 8 for... how long does fuel burn?

I don't see why it's not a good question for the thread. He's asking for an estimation of the real world effects of an in-game adhoc weapon.

Unfortunately I'm not familiar enough with Werewolf 20th Edition to make a games rules comparison (2nd ED, I can do).

The air-borne gasoline isn't going to go up like a Fuel-Air Bomb, if that's what you're thinking. Really you are going to create the world's largest Molotov Cocktail, not that that's not cool.

I agree with Kaptain Keen in that the weapon does follow the principle of a FAE, it's just sub-optimally delivered.

The effects of a FAE Is highly dependent on how far the fuel is allowed to spread before detonation - a proper FAE has a tandem charge, with the first dispersing the fuel to a wide enough area before the second ignites the fuel. The delay on the initial charge also allows the delivering vehicle to get to a minimum safe distance, which is a concern with shock waves and airborne craft.

Since I presume the PCs are using something sensible like a flaregun to ignite it from a distance rather than the typical Darwin Award worthy idea of igniting the petrol stream direct from the hose, the main issue with the helicopter idea is dispersal.

The higher up you go, the more dispersal (wider area) and aerosolisation (bigger bang) you get, however you need to find the sweet spot of not too high (else the petrol will evaporate into the atmosphere and not get low enough to cause any damage) and not too low (the fuel will just splash comparatively harmlessly over the ground, plus you run the risk of AA fire or jumping werewolves).

If I wanted to model it, I'd calculate the yield of the explosion, cross reference that to something like an artillery shell, then see what the equivalent would be in the Werewolf rule book.

[Storm Bringer]

Shouldn't that be possible, though? Not that I'm particularly sure on the mechanics of fuel-air bombs, but as I understand it, you disperse fuel over a large area - then ignite it for a truly magnificient boom. Inspired, of all things, by flour explosions.

But shouldn't it, at least in principle, be possible to achieve the same result with gasoline? It is, after all, weirdly reminiscent of how an automobile engine works. Of course the problem might be to disperse the fuel without igniting it.

Anyways ... I was just wondering =)

basically, its like throwing a handful of dice and getting them all to land on their highest possible values. Yes, it's theoretically possible, but the odds are very much against it.

a Fuel-air mix is only really explosive in a fairly specific mixture, and can be effected by things like droplet size, etc. the rest of the time, its either just highly flammable, or even non-flammable if the mix hasn't enough air in it.

As Mr Beer says, what your suggested would be an extremely large Molotov Cocktail, coating the area with burning liquids, rather than a FAE that has a massive blast effect but little actual burning,


FAE bombs need to disperse the fuel in a very carefully choregraphed way before trying to light it. Same as a petrol engine, in fact, which use a mix that creates a steady push rather than a sharp bang, or flour, which will explode in certain circumstances, but otherwise just burns really quick (hence why science teachers can just blow it into a Bunsen burner to get a impressive burst of flame without worrying about hurting anyone to much,

[Kaptin Keen]

The effects of a FAE Is highly dependent on how far the fuel is allowed to spread before detonation - a proper FAE has a tandem charge, with the first dispersing the fuel to a wide enough area before the second ignites the fuel.

That's precisely what I was thinking: You need a way to nicely vapourize the fuel, into a cloud of tiny droplets - then ignite the whole mess with something like a super size spark plug. No reason to think it would be as, or more powerful than, a fuel-air bomb, but it's inside the realm of reason it would be more powerful than a molotov cocktail =)

I don't know how to disperse the fuel into a cloud of droplets, however. Like, maybe a sonic concussion would do it. Buuuuut ... we're edging out of the realm of Real-World Weapons, here. Still, heat the fuel to above ignition temperature, use a sonic burst to transform it into nano-droplets, and a tesla-like giant spark plug to make it go boom.

While completely imaginary, it sounds like it's close to something that could be real.

[The Jack]

I don't see why it's not a good question for the thread. He's asking for an estimation of the real world effects of an in-game adhoc weapon.

Unfortunately I'm not familiar enough with Werewolf 20th Edition to make a games rules comparison (2nd ED, I can do).

Weren't queries on game mechanics badwrong?
All the cWoD games have largely the same rules (V5 isn't) so things you know from 2e will are more probably in the newest edition than not.


Related note for hunting werewolves in the modern world; Silver is relatively inexpensive and you can recover it if you win. Tell your GM she's crazy for ever having having pentex/hunters ever take the easy route and not use silver. They should always use silver. ALWAYS. Silver grenades. Make silver grenades! Everytime you make a robot use silver wires, silver doornobs for your doors.... just silver everything.

[gkathellar]

Thinking about it, how would the penetration of silver bullets be against body armor? Silver is pretty soft, so I’d think it would perform poorly against bullet-resistant materials. Am I mistaken in that impression?

What I’m really asking here is, “should werewolves wear body armor?”

[Willie the Duck]

Thinking about it, how would the penetration of silver bullets be against body armor? Silver is pretty soft, so I’d think it would perform poorly against bullet-resistant materials. Am I mistaken in that impression?

Silver and Lead are different in terms of softness, but not greatly. Silver bullets would react to armor similar to non-armor-piercing bullets.

What I’m really asking here is, “should werewolves wear body armor?”

Barring some Underword-style bullets which leak silver nitrate (but could have an armor piercing point), it seems like a reasonable idea.

[Brother Oni]

Still, heat the fuel to above ignition temperature, use a sonic burst to transform it into nano-droplets, and a tesla-like giant spark plug to make it go boom.

I'll defer to Storm Bringer here, but the flash point (the lowest temperature a volatile material will ignite at if given an ignition source) of petrol is -43C. No heating is required, just dispersing and aerosolising it.

Weren't queries on game mechanics badwrong?
All the cWoD games have largely the same rules (V5 isn't) so things you know from 2e will are more probably in the newest edition than not.

I'll concede the specific game mechanics question are out of scope for this thread, simply because of the risk of the thread getting embroiled in a mechanics argument, but we shouldn't discourage discussing the principle behind proposals of weapons/armour/tactics/etc.

Thinking about it, how would the penetration of silver bullets be against body armor? Silver is pretty soft, so I’d think it would perform poorly against bullet-resistant materials. Am I mistaken in that impression?

What I’m really asking here is, “should werewolves wear body armor?”

Assuming you can get a kevlar vest big enough to cover a Crinos and they can get past any barriers to wearing it, then it sounds reasonable.

Depending on the tribe, arguments may range from surveillance/legal ("Even if you convince these guys to sell you Kevlar by the square metre, don't they have to report it to somebody? Don't you think Pentex will hear?), cost/technical (buying Kevlar by the square metre then turning it into body armour), to cultural ("You don't trust in the gifts granted by Mother Gaia! Heretic! RAWR!") to alpha male peen waving personal ("You are so cowardly to wear armour? You are too weak to lead us! I challenge you! RAWR!").

[The Jack]

I don't think kevlar would really do much for them, though I suppose with their size and strength they could make things extra thick without worrying too much about ergonomics. I''m sure the glass walkers can make their own stuff and indeed I don't imagine Dies Ultima without a silly amount of werewolf armour, but I think armoured garou would default metal protection combined with their gift powers. Mail won't hold up to rifles but it could with luna's armour. I think it'd also give them lots of opportunity for art/totemic iconography/spirit pleasing that'd maybe alleviate some of the cultural issues that such a backwards race has.

But they'd probably get horribly crushed if a they were wearing metal crinos armour and shifted.

[Max_Killjoy]

basically, its like throwing a handful of dice and getting them all to land on their highest possible values. Yes, it's theoretically possible, but the odds are very much against it.

a Fuel-air mix is only really explosive in a fairly specific mixture, and can be effected by things like droplet size, etc. the rest of the time, its either just highly flammable, or even non-flammable if the mix hasn't enough air in it.

As Mr Beer says, what your suggested would be an extremely large Molotov Cocktail, coating the area with burning liquids, rather than a FAE that has a massive blast effect but little actual burning,


FAE bombs need to disperse the fuel in a very carefully choregraphed way before trying to light it. Same as a petrol engine, in fact, which use a mix that creates a steady push rather than a sharp bang, or flour, which will explode in certain circumstances, but otherwise just burns really quick (hence why science teachers can just blow it into a Bunsen burner to get a impressive burst of flame without worrying about hurting anyone to much,

Indeed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoichiometry

The ratio of fuel to air (and thus oxygen) is critical in obtaining a detonation or powerful deflagration from a fuel aerosol or fine powder, or a gas.

Watch the Mythbusters segments where they're TRYING to get a room full of gas to explode, and how hard it actually is -- in contrast to Hollywood's world full of explosions-waiting-to-happen.

[Kaptin Keen]

I'll defer to Storm Bringer here, but the flash point (the lowest temperature a volatile material will ignite at if given an ignition source) of petrol is -43C. No heating is required, just dispersing and aerosolising it.

Oh I didn't say it was required. And my understanding of such things is enormously limited, but I kinda-sorta that gasoline as 600 degrees (for instance) is quite a bit more volatile than gasoline at -44 degrees. Since it seems the science guys have a lot of fun optimizing the yields of their fuel-air bombs, I figured that sort of thing would be worth looking into =)

But please ... keep in mind, I have no idea what I'm talking about. I studied philosophy, I work in sales, and any incidental knowledge I have is from pulp fiction or roleplaying games. It's a miracle I don't think hyperspace is a real thing =)

[Brother Oni]

I don't think kevlar would really do much for them, though I suppose with their size and strength they could make things extra thick without worrying too much about ergonomics. I''m sure the glass walkers can make their own stuff and indeed I don't imagine Dies Ultima without a silly amount of werewolf armour, but I think armoured garou would default metal protection combined with their gift powers. Mail won't hold up to rifles but it could with luna's armour. I think it'd also give them lots of opportunity for art/totemic iconography/spirit pleasing that'd maybe alleviate some of the cultural issues that such a backwards race has.

Given silver's toxicity to the garou, it'd be better to think of wearing Kevlar as more a hazmat suit or lab coat to prevent skin contact rather than actual ballistic protection.

But please ... keep in mind, I have no idea what I'm talking about. I studied philosophy, I work in sales, and any incidental knowledge I have is from pulp fiction or roleplaying games. It's a miracle I don't think hyperspace is a real thing =)

Given that petrol auto-ignites at between 247-280C (ie get it that hot and it will spontaneously ignite without an ignition source), saying 600C petrol is a bit more volatile is understatement worthy of an Englishman.

[Vinyadan]

I guess that there would also be bad visibility and it would be hard to breathe. I wonder how visibility would impact a landing, if you needed to mop up.

About the statues, I can't really complain about the research put in the archer statue vs the Riace one, simply because they were made under the same person. What really strikes my eyes is the difference in how the colour is applied, there is a lot of nuance in the Riace statue, and solid colour in the archer. However, the archer was high above the viewer, so nuances maybe would have been invisible, or could even have detracted from visibility of the composition in general. The archer comes from a previous era (40 to 80 years older), so it is possible that, in the meantime, there also were some steps forward in the naturalism of Greek painting.

About the archer, in theory he could be a Scythian. One of the peoples allied with the Trojans, the Halizones, were sometimes understood to be Scythians, for example by Herodotus. However, he doesn't need to be one. I wouldn't be too surprised if the Greeks had a particular hero in mind, though. Maybe one who isn't in the Homeric poems. I remember reading a dissertation some time ago that wondered if archers occasionally were simply dispersed among the hoplites, and would then kneel and snipe during battle behind the cover of an ally. Both archers on the pediment could be read that way.

Spoiler

Show

The other pediment also has kneeling archers:

Thank you for the info, DerKommisar. I personally like this sort of things, although I haven't yet seen them in person. In general, art is already misunderstood because museums are anthologies of excerpts -- art generally isn't made for museums, but most of it is either part of larger works of art, like temples, or made for a precise kind of setting. So if there is a way to clear a misconception, that's good. I was surprised by how much more lively an archaic statue of Apollo looked, once it was covered in gold. I also can't really enjoy certain works by e.g. Canova, because I find that much of their content is lost in the white, although that might be a result of modern artificial light. Weaker and inhomogeneous lights probably enhanced the shadows and stressed the different volumes.

[Mr Beer]

To add to my position that dropping gasoline from a helicopter isn't going to make a Fuel Air Bomb, the Nazis tried and failed to develop battlefield thermobaric weaponry. Bear in mind that they were capable of creating jet engine aircraft and V2 rockets and a bunch of other cool stuff and we still didn't see this line of research working out until the 1960s.

My conclusion is that it's a non-trivial task for a modern nation with a mature war industry to create one of these things. Therefore a bunch of mavericks with a helicopter, a whole load of fuel and a magnificent dream are unlikely to succeed in pulling it off.

That said, if you have a larger than life campaign running on the Rule of Cool and PCs with relevant skills, I'd likely let them succeed on good rolls because thermobaric explosions are awesome.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Anyone know anything about pre-modern (ideally about the Silk Road era, but with a wide temporal window either way) central Asian demographics? Specifically the more nomadic peoples of the mountain regions (modern day Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, and north eastern Afganistan primarily)? I'm not looking at the mongolian tribes particularly.

I'd like to know how settled they were and how big the smallest unit (villages?) averaged. Even approximate numbers would be nice. Any other random cultural facts would also be wonderful

I'm using those as an initial starting point for my goliath/giant (same race, just magically changed at the individual level) culture and want to ballpark some numbers and get some inspiration.

[Lapak]

Anyone know anything about pre-modern (ideally about the Silk Road era, but with a wide temporal window either way) central Asian demographics? Specifically the more nomadic peoples of the mountain regions (modern day Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, and north eastern Afganistan primarily)? I'm not looking at the mongolian tribes particularly.

I'd like to know how settled they were and how big the smallest unit (villages?) averaged. Even approximate numbers would be nice. Any other random cultural facts would also be wonderful

I'm using those as an initial starting point for my goliath/giant (same race, just magically changed at the individual level) culture and want to ballpark some numbers and get some inspiration.

Not exactly what you're looking for, as this it's a fantasy setting in a pseudo-Silk Road environment, but the author does do the reading and shows his work in how he got from [Real World Central Asian Thing or Myth] to [Game Element.] At the very least it should hit the inspiration button and give you some ideas of where to go: Against the Wicked City. I'd look at the 'Rest of the World' section and the 'Monsters from Central Asian Mythology' section in particular.