Rogue-likes! (not a discussion of the correct use of the term)

[Bucky]

My conclusions on DCSS were that polearms were the all-around best weapon category and dodging was the best defense and therefore merfolk were the best race for melee. But that was many versions ago.

[Maryring]

Good grief. Escorts be suicidal. You'd think they have the sense to not walk into the AoE attacks as they happen, but nope. They're more than happy to just trundle into an ongoing field of fire and wait around in it as they're slowly cooked to death.

[Anteros]

Maces are typically considered the best weapon category in DCSS for the simple reason that they almost always require much less experience to level than the other weapon categories.

Axes encourage lazy play, but there will come times in the game when you're surrounded and have to fight, and they can be useful for those times.

Sword ripostes tend to make up about 5-10% of your total damage when you wield them, even for characters that use heavy armor and shields. Swords are theoretically the "best' weapon type in end-game when your character is maxed out since they give a bonus that never goes away, but not the best weapon for getting there. They're also very good for characters who don't want to focus on weapon skills as they can give a free attack on an enemy turn.

Polearms are widely considered to be the worst weapon category. Their bonus is just so incredibly situational.

Shields can be good, but two-handers are almost always better. The things that tend to kill you in this game (once you're good) are the dangerous spell casters. The best defense in this game is the ability to eliminate an enemy before he can torment or hellfire you for half your health bar in one turn. Shields typically do very little to help you against the game's most dangerous enemies. They're also a huge experience cost, and you're basically trading your ability to train spell casting for a shield for most of the game, which isn't ideal unless you're worshiping Trog.

There's also the fact that the damage numbers on your weapon are given multipliers based on your fighting and weapon skills. As a result, a weapon that's only a few points in damage higher than another will end up doing much more damage by the late game. Note that this does not include enhancements, so a +1 doublesword will be better than a +9 falchion for everything but the very early game when accuracy is more important.

Good grief. Escorts be suicidal. You'd think they have the sense to not walk into the AoE attacks as they happen, but nope. They're more than happy to just trundle into an ongoing field of fire and wait around in it as they're slowly cooked to death.

You can click on them and tell them to wait while you clear slightly ahead. They won't wait forever, but doing it at the right time makes escorts 1,000X easier. Another good trick is to funnel them into enclosed areas with only one way to move forward. This allows you to limit the number of enemies you're fighting, and also to get in front of them and stop them from moving so you can heal and get cooldowns back.

[Kaptin Keen]

You can click on them and tell them to wait while you clear slightly ahead. They won't wait forever, but doing it at the right time makes escorts 1,000X easier. Another good trick is to funnel them into enclosed areas with only one way to move forward. This allows you to limit the number of enemies you're fighting, and also to get in front of them and stop them from moving so you can heal and get cooldowns back.

As the level of management increases, the level of usefulness decreases. My current theory is that companions are primarily a form of masochist tamagochi. There's that swordsman you can get from the goblin village, and I kept him around for awhile - but then, let's say around level 10 or so, I was fighting a tension room of dudes, and one of them get's a single hit in on my swordsman, takes 75% of his HP, and makes him panic. Panic=hostile. So he ran around for awhile as I cleared the tension room, then decided I was dangerous and tried to kill me. Obviously I 1-shot him, and that was the last time I tried having a companion.

I'm sure they can be made to work, I just don't see how. At the very least, without extensive management, they seem to be quite a bit of a liability.

[Anteros]

As the level of management increases, the level of usefulness decreases. My current theory is that companions are primarily a form of masochist tamagochi. There's that swordsman you can get from the goblin village, and I kept him around for awhile - but then, let's say around level 10 or so, I was fighting a tension room of dudes, and one of them get's a single hit in on my swordsman, takes 75% of his HP, and makes him panic. Panic=hostile. So he ran around for awhile as I cleared the tension room, then decided I was dangerous and tried to kill me. Obviously I 1-shot him, and that was the last time I tried having a companion.

I'm sure they can be made to work, I just don't see how. At the very least, without extensive management, they seem to be quite a bit of a liability.

I think you're talking about ADoM while I was talking about the escort quests in ToME.

[Kaptin Keen]

I think you're talking about ADoM while I was talking about the escort quests in ToME.

Well - yes. Utterly true, that. And I realise escorts are useless by design. But on a slightly related note, companions are useless, and not (I'd imagine) by design. But it's more of a 'oh, that makes me think of' -thing.

[factotum]

You can click on them and tell them to wait while you clear slightly ahead.

The only issue there is that it's not always obvious which direction they're going in, especially in places like Trollmire where it's generally open with lots of obstacles.

Had a quick go at the Orc expansion--not sure I'll continue that one, though, not a fan of the dual-gun gameplay. Still haven't successfully got any character through a tier 2 dungeon--last attempt I got killed by wandering adventurers before I even reached one!

[Cespenar]

As the level of management increases, the level of usefulness decreases. My current theory is that companions are primarily a form of masochist tamagochi. There's that swordsman you can get from the goblin village, and I kept him around for awhile - but then, let's say around level 10 or so, I was fighting a tension room of dudes, and one of them get's a single hit in on my swordsman, takes 75% of his HP, and makes him panic. Panic=hostile. So he ran around for awhile as I cleared the tension room, then decided I was dangerous and tried to kill me. Obviously I 1-shot him, and that was the last time I tried having a companion.

I'm sure they can be made to work, I just don't see how. At the very least, without extensive management, they seem to be quite a bit of a liability.

My only win in ADOM was made possible by a pet Geodude greater earth elemental that I trained to high hell and who just went through walls and obliterated anything in sight. Similarly, necromancers can make pretty good use of some rare creature corpses. So I wouldn't say they are totally useless, but you have to start with a powerful base creature.

About the escort quests in ToME, I find them fun. The game is mostly about killing creatures with skill combos, so anything even slightly out of the ordinary is a good spice, in my opinion.

[Kaptin Keen]

My only win in ADOM was made possible by a pet Geodude greater earth elemental that I trained to high hell and who just went through walls and obliterated anything in sight. Similarly, necromancers can make pretty good use of some rare creature corpses. So I wouldn't say they are totally useless, but you have to start with a powerful base creature.

I have that blessed scroll of familiar summoning Thrundarr gave me lying about in my backpack. Unsure precisely what to do with it, but if I ever get around to it, I'll make sure to use it somewhere with a significant DL. But how do you train it tho? Just let if fight little dudes all day?

[Cespenar]

I have that blessed scroll of familiar summoning Thrundarr gave me lying about in my backpack. Unsure precisely what to do with it, but if I ever get around to it, I'll make sure to use it somewhere with a significant DL. But how do you train it tho? Just let if fight little dudes all day?

You ideally read it at Dwarven Halls L2. And yes, if it's a buff enough base creature, just continue adventuring and it will get its exp. Maybe stay a bit longer on levels in its early states so that it gets a good head start experience-wise. Call him back if you spot a particularly nasty creature and your pokemon is low on health or exp. And don't take him along to places with environmental hazards, like the tower. Be also extra careful in darkness so that you don't attack it by accident.

Greater Earth Elementals are particularly nice companions even amongst rare creatures, since they can regenerate and pass through walls, two great advantages in dungeoneering.

[Kaptin Keen]

Greater Earth Elementals are particularly nice companions even amongst rare creatures, since they can regenerate and pass through walls, two great advantages in dungeoneering.

My troll, too, can pass through walls. Not without breaking them, I admit. And it takes a little while.

=)

[Knaight]

About the escort quests in ToME, I find them fun. The game is mostly about killing creatures with skill combos, so anything even slightly out of the ordinary is a good spice, in my opinion.

I like them too, and the "wait here for a while" command is pretty key to that. Otherwise they're just obnoxious, unless you've got one of the handful of characters who can make walls and just box them in for a while.

[Kaptin Keen]

So this Frost Giant place is ... tougher than expected. They're actually fighting back, something I've grown dangerously unaccustomed to. How hard should I expect it to be?

Also, I found a Royal Vault. The wiki led me to believe it would contain a number of artifacts, but it held only gold. Also, Karl the Royal Guard is not to be trifled with. Holy crap. He very nearly one-shot me. Then I teleported him away. Byee, Karl the Royal guard. Then I found him again, but on the other side of water. I pelted him to death with my sling. Yes, Karl - look at you now. Tell me again how hard you hit with your two-handed sword. Ha!

[Sian]

You're probably mixing up Greater Vaults (half-level vaults with strong monsters that host up to several Artefacts in, sometimes hidden, rooms) and Royal Vaults (small, regular-room sized, disconnected rooms with loads of gold

[factotum]

Wow. Just encountered a mad area in ToME--the "Occult Egress". Basically, a four character code that opens a portal to...somewhere. Given that the Egress itself was marked as level 4 or something like that I wasn't expecting anything too hard inside the portal, so the level 38 elite spider came as a bit of a shock. That was on level 1, and it wasn't even a boss! Anyone know what that place is about?

[Kaptin Keen]

You're probably mixing up Greater Vaults (half-level vaults with strong monsters that host up to several Artefacts in, sometimes hidden, rooms) and Royal Vaults (small, regular-room sized, disconnected rooms with loads of gold

Nah, I've never looked up any other vaults. There was a line that stated that 'experienced players familiar with the layout of vaults may be able to determine the number of artifacts from the shape of the vault'. But now that I've looked it up, again, I can see how that line makes sense for major vaults, and not for royal vaults. Regardless, I read it in the other context.

Which is weird. But I've definitely not seen the wiki page for major vaults before.

I dunno ... you're clearly right about the information.

Oh, and hey - I'm now crowned. That's another first. Sold some stuff (after the royal vault) and had 150k gold, sacrificed most of it: Bam. So now I have the ... thing. Robes of Resistance. Not a bad piece of armor, all things considered. Not quite as good PV as my eternium plate mail, but ... well, it has three elemental resistance too. And toughness. It's nice.

[tyckspoon]

Wow. Just encountered a mad area in ToME--the "Occult Egress". Basically, a four character code that opens a portal to...somewhere. Given that the Egress itself was marked as level 4 or something like that I wasn't expecting anything too hard inside the portal, so the level 38 elite spider came as a bit of a shock. That was on level 1, and it wasn't even a boss! Anyone know what that place is about?

There's a dungeon you can access through it that unlocks the Drem race when you clear it, also gives some nice lore about the origins of Drem and Dwarves on Maj'Eyal. The access code for that one can be found in the starting town associated with the horror-cultist classes from the latest expansion. I don't know if there are any other active codes related to it.

Also yeah, I lost a character to that the first time I ran into it; I figured wherever it sent me would be more dangerous than the portal area itself, sure, but I didn't plan on running into that high a danger zone going through an entryway that wasn't even level-locked to access.

[factotum]

Also yeah, I lost a character to that the first time I ran into it; I figured wherever it sent me would be more dangerous than the portal area itself, sure, but I didn't plan on running into that high a danger zone going through an entryway that wasn't even level-locked to access.

The weird thing is, everything else I ran into was what you'd expect to find in a low-level area, so suddenly finding something 10x higher level than everything else did feel a little dodgy. I did try out a horror character last night but got killed quite quickly in the Worm and didn't explore the town thoroughly before going in, will have to try another one.

[Bohandas]

My favorite roguelike is Dungeons of Dredmor, which I've even created a couple of mods for. I like that it doesn't have mandatory permadeath, and that it's extensively moddable, and it's humorous, and it has a wide range of character classes that can be mixed and matched.

In the past couple of days though I've also gotten really into the game Immortal Redneck

[Maryring]

You can click on them and tell them to wait while you clear slightly ahead. They won't wait forever, but doing it at the right time makes escorts 1,000X easier. Another good trick is to funnel them into enclosed areas with only one way to move forward. This allows you to limit the number of enemies you're fighting, and also to get in front of them and stop them from moving so you can heal and get cooldowns back.

It helps, but they only wait for a few moments. So if you find a room filled to the brim with enemies, you're not gonna take em out before the idiots start waltzing into the field of fire. Not to mention it really breaks suspension of disbelief when they literally walk into fields of fire.

[Anteros]

They tend to run from enemies though. It's not super tough to keep yourself between them.

Sometimes you get unlucky or make a mistake and they die, but that's just part of the game. You can almost always save them though. The trick is to figure out where they're going and keep slightly ahead of them, or to block them off so they can't move while you deal with packs of enemies. Of course this means you have to tank the enemies yourself instead of kiting them, which is a problem for some characters.

[Corlindale]

The weird thing is, everything else I ran into was what you'd expect to find in a low-level area, so suddenly finding something 10x higher level than everything else did feel a little dodgy. I did try out a horror character last night but got killed quite quickly in the Worm and didn't explore the town thoroughly before going in, will have to try another one.

To be fair, the Worm is considered one of the hardest alternate starting dungeons in the game. A lot of people skip it - or go somewhere else to get a few levels before doing it. The latter is pretty tricky, though, as it's one of the few dungeons that actually put you on a timer. If you take too long, the city will be destroyed.

I have a weird problem with the Forbidden Cults expansion. Even with the simplistic graphics of ToME, some of the tentacle animations just totally creep me out, so I can't really play the Writhing One class without starting to feel a little bit sick. It's not so bad on the enemies that use similar abilities, because they tend to be rare, or mostly occur in certain areas that can be avoided - but Writhing One just feels really yucky to play for me. It is admittedly quite thematic that the Lovecraftian expansion produces stuff that is disturbing to look at, but it's just working a tad too well in my case.

Still really enjoy the Cultist of Entropy, though. I still haven't wrapped my head around how to build a really good one, but I'll give it another try soon.

[factotum]

To be fair, the Worm is considered one of the hardest alternate starting dungeons in the game. A lot of people skip it - or go somewhere else to get a few levels before doing it. The latter is pretty tricky, though, as it's one of the few dungeons that actually put you on a timer. If you take too long, the city will be destroyed.

I actuallly created another writhing one just now and managed the Worm much better this time--using the "skin shield" ability proved to be enormously useful. Searched the entire town and couldn't find the access code Tyckspoon mentioned, so went out into the wide world--and promptly got killed on level 2 of Trollmire. Is it just my imagination, or is the watery version of Trollmire much, much harder than the regular one?

[tyckspoon]

I actuallly created another writhing one just now and managed the Worm much better this time--using the "skin shield" ability proved to be enormously useful. Searched the entire town and couldn't find the access code Tyckspoon mentioned, so went out into the wide world--and promptly got killed on level 2 of Trollmire. Is it just my imagination, or is the watery version of Trollmire much, much harder than the regular one?

It has a tendency to spawn electric eels, which means you can get things throwing lighting bolts at you. Any zone with ranged mobs/casters is going to be harder than one without, and standard Trollmire is almost entirely melee enemies. I don't recall any other standard enemy changes that should be unusually more difficult. The version of the boss in AltMire is also somewhat harder, but not to the point I can recall having major problems with him - he's just not as easy to destroy with fire as the usual troll.

Edit: Oh, yeah, the other thing is AltMire is a more open map than normal Trollmire, so you're more likely to catch the attention of multiple enemy spawns or get surrounded in places where the standard map would let you funnel them through chokepoints.

[Knaight]

There's a dungeon you can access through it that unlocks the Drem race when you clear it, also gives some nice lore about the origins of Drem and Dwarves on Maj'Eyal. The access code for that one can be found in the starting town associated with the horror-cultist classes from the latest expansion. I don't know if there are any other active codes related to it.

There's a couple of others, though they're all pretty similar.

[Kaptin Keen]

So troll guy is now level 20, and I'm trying to clear the frost jarl caves. And lo and behold, if it isn't a major dragon vault - which is amusingly discongruent, an ice giant cave full of red dragons.

So it's not like it's out of the blue, but still. There are little dragons, which I 1-shot, and normal dragons that can barely touch me. Then there are fire elementals, and a few of those at a time actually hurt. Then, an ancient red dragon, which I kite all over the place, unsuccesfully - before deciding that I can't beat it, and I blast it with my wand of cold, and it lies down and dies.

So ... I didn't know this yet, but major dragon vaults will have a great wyrm. If the ancient dragon was hard, I'm just going out on a limb here and guessing - I'm not going to get the great wyrm down, end of story.

So now I'll have to go elsewhere, dammit. I need more cold damage. Much more.

[Maryring]

Can't you just not do the vault and walk to the down stairs, and then return later?

Anyway. I gave a shot at the Anorilith class in ToME and sheesh. The early game is a pain. I've never had as much difficulty with the early game as I have here. I can generally make it to and beat the first boss easily. But those sun-worshippers seem... so weak.

And of course, the one time I manage to get to the boss and break the portal, we get teleported... right next to an escort mission that gets immediately bumped off.

[Kaptin Keen]

Can't you just not do the vault and walk to the down stairs, and then return later?

Well, the thougt has occurred to me - but now that I've activated it, it's not like all those dragons are just staying in there. Yes, I can bypass it for now, but that feels suspiciously like leaving enemies I know for a fact I cannot beat at my back. That feels like a way to lose the game.

And anyways, I really should get more ways of killing stuff when my eternium 2-hander fails to do so. I popped my head inside the tower of eternal flames, and I can kill the things in there just fine - on the first level - but I feel that also isn't going to last.

I suppose the proper solution is to bypass the vault, and just be prepated to tp to the exit on my way back.

[Maryring]

Teleporting is what I did. Since it's a greater vault, I always skip that vault until later, simply because there's always something big and bad in Greater Vaults that will cream me at that stage, but the lesser enemies are generally easy enough. Anyway, if you need more fire resistance, remember that the Ring of the High Kings, which you should be able to grab by now, is a decent enough source of resistance at this point in the game.

[Kaptin Keen]

Teleporting is what I did. Since it's a greater vault, I always skip that vault until later, simply because there's always something big and bad in Greater Vaults that will cream me at that stage, but the lesser enemies are generally easy enough. Anyway, if you need more fire resistance, remember that the Ring of the High Kings, which you should be able to grab by now, is a decent enough source of resistance at this point in the game.

I have two blessed rings of fire resistance, elemental gauntlets, intrinsic fire resistance - fire resistance up the wazoo. I'm worried about item destruction though, and unsure what to do about it. I have at least two fire proof blankets too, but ... well, my boots of levitation I could take off, and walk barefoot, but ... well I may be a troll, but I'm not a barbarian, ya know?

Ring of the High Kings. I should look that up, that's something I haven't done yet.

That's honestly a challenge all of it's own: I don't know what to do, I've never been this far before. I didn't know there was a dwarven graveyard. I had never been to the water temple. Or the graveyard. Or ... all sorts of things. Didn't know where the rift was - actually, never climbed any mountains at all. I'm basically playing blind (except, you know, for the internet =)