Dawn of Hope: On Dragons

[PhoenixPhyre]

Dragons are the descendants of one of the three original tyrant races—they descend from Wyrm, whose initial role (before the Dawn War) was to break down and recycle unneeded or improperly constructed pieces of the worlds. This they did with their mastery of True Sorcery (changing creation by renaming it). While diminished from their original power, dragons still pose a significant threat to any creature or society with which they come in conflict and have a good claim at being the most powerful individuals in the world.

Spoiler: Lifecycle

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Dragons are hatched out of eggs laid by female dragons. A breeding female will lay a dozen or so eggs, of which only a few will reach adulthood. These eggs grow after being laid as they are exposed to elemental energies, either from their environment or by their parents. A newly laid egg is about the size of a large chicken egg and is about the same color. An egg ready to hatch is much larger, about the size of a goblin and massing about 20 kg. As they mature, they take on a pearlescent color, regardless of the elemental affinity of the parents or wyrmling-to-be. Eggs mature at a rate that only depends on the exposure to anima; an untended egg does not die, it merely crystalizes. A crystalized dragon egg can wait indefinitely unless physically destroyed or drained of the copious quantity of anima it contains even freshly laid.

Eggs hatch into hatchlings about the size of a large cat, albeit one with wings, scales, and teeth. These newborns gain strength rapidly, growing over about a year’s span until they’re the size of a large dog with a 4-6’ wingspan. While hatchlings, the dragons also pick up information quickly. They’re born with the ability to speak Draconic, but many pick up various mortal languages by the time they become wyrmlings. During this period they retain the opalescent look of the egg and lack the fixed elemental affinity of more mature dragons.

At some point after about a year (but rarely more than 2 years after hatching), the hatchlings undergo their First Molt. This is a critical time in the life of a dragon. Each hatchling is drawn to a source of elemental energy, often flying for days without stopping. Once there, they immerse themselves in the source (which ranges from an active volcano to a massive storm or icy glacier), drawing the elemental substance around themselves to form a cocoon. This cocoon lasts for a varying amount of time, usually days or weeks. Many do not survive this process (either the desperate search for a suitable source or the cocooning process). Others awaken wrong, blasted of mind and degenerated into animalistic drakes and wyverns. Those that survive come out attuned to that element, their scales bearing a monochromatic palette instead of the variegated colors of hatchling-hood. They have become wyrmlings.
The wyrmling stage lasts for about 5 years on average (more in areas with poor sustenance and less in rich areas). While up to this point the hatchlings have no real name (frequently being called by their rank in the hatchling ranks based on rough-and-tumble brawls), they start building their identity and gain the first syllables of their name. This is where dragons are at their hungriest—without the sustenance from a hoard, they devour the flesh of creatures or even rocks. Their exact color varies—see Colors and Patterns infra. They are also at their most curious, wanting to experience everything.

Once the wyrmling has grown to the size of a draft horse (with corresponding wingspan), they undergo the Second Molt. During this time they enter a deep sleep in a protected location. As they sleep, they mentally review their experiences, searching for their own identity in their hoard. Once they find the germ of the hoard that will sustain them for the remainder of their (very long) lives, they awaken. This process takes months to years, rarely more than 2-3 years. The young dragons that awaken are single-mindedly dedicated to starting their hoard. This is the most dangerous part of the lifecycle (for others and for the dragon)—this obsession can drive them to attack settlements, other dragons, or otherwise take risks that older dragons would be able to resist. As their hoard accumulates, they settle down.

After about a hundred years (more or less, depending on the rate of accumulation), they transition into adulthood. The Third Molt is another period of hibernation, one where they become sexually mature and transition from eating primarily physical substances to being supported by the concentrated anima of their hoards and the elemental planes themselves. This transformation takes multiple years or even up to a decade. As adults they seek out mates—some mate monogamously, others mate promiscuously. Females are in total control of their fertility and lay eggs at most every decade. By this point the dragon is very fixed in its ways and irrevocably settles on a chromatic status. This phase is the social phase, where they seek out others of their kind for challenges, cooperation, or even companionship.

A very few dragons gather enough of a hoard to prompt the final transformation, the Fourth Molt into ancient dragon-hood. This process takes decades or centuries of hibernation. The creature that emerges desires control. Not enough to settle down with a hoard and occasional interactions with others, ancients want to lead a flight of their own with dragons that answer to its demands. Ancients are the most powerful of their kinds.

Whether adults or ancients, dragons live about 1500-2000 years in total, although substantial portions of that are spent in sleep (either Molt or just regular hibernation). Dragons, when they die of old age, become a form of elemental crystal that radiates strong magical power. As such, flights defend and hide their graveyards—these often serve as destinations for hatchlings (much safer than plunging into the depths of a raging volcano); conversely these are a target for marauders.

Spoiler: Hoards

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Dragons are defined by their hoards. What comprises that hoard depends on the dragon. Every dragon’s hoard is individual—some as general as “valuable items” and some as specific as “the sounds made by creatures in the depths of despair/heights of pleasure”. Some are material, others are ideas or concepts. As a general rule, the more powerful the individual dragon, the more esoteric and specific the hoard.

Elemental and chromatic affinity play some small role in this hoard formation. Metallic dragons tend to focus on more mortal-oriented (such as beautiful or ugly people or relationships or power) or arcane hoards, while chromatics tend to focus more on “classic” dragon hoards such as money, gems, artwork, or herds of animals.
Hoards are both the strength and weakness of dragons. A dragon can draw on her hoard for power, letting them go without food for decades at a stretch as well as fueling her supernatural abilities. On the other hand, if the hoard is disrupted or stolen, much of the strength is lost. In addition, dragons often become monomaniacal about their hoard, taking almost any means to extend or protect it. Threaten their hoard and they will respond, even if it’s an obvious feint. The few that can resist this intrinsic urge are the most dangerous ones around.

Spoiler: Names

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One constant holds about draconic names. The length of the name correlates directly with the age and experience of the dragon. Wyrmlings take a seed name of a few syllables in Draconic that describe them. To this they add more syllables in whatever language fits their fancy and that they feel describe them as they grow. Young dragons tend to have dozens of syllables in their full name; adults may number in the hundreds. Those at the end of their natural lifespan may have names that take hours to say in full.
Knowing a dragon’s name to a greater extent (even in full) does not grant any direct power over the dragon. It does describe them in detail and gives significant insight into their internal mental state, physical capabilities, and hoard. Dragons tend to use a “use name”—a few syllables chosen out of their name as a tag. All the names given here are use names, not full names.

Spoiler: Colors & Patterns

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Most scholars categorize dragons into 5 chromatic types and 5 metallic types. These types are each associated with an element. Unlike the default rules presentation, dragon color in Quartus is not directly correlated with power. You can have a white stronger than a red, for example. Draconic type only tells you what type of breath weapon you can expect and whether the dragon has put significant effort into the study of the arcane. Type and element do play into preferred terrain and a bit into personality, but personality is dominated by the individual, their upbringing and their hoard.

As a general rule, “chromatic” (blue, green, red, and white) dragons focus on their innate magic rather than stooping to learn the structured arcane arts. As a result, chromatics rarely cast more than simple spells and only very rarely can change their shape. Metallics (brass, bronze, copper, and silver) are the opposite—they tend to be weaker physical combatants but stronger magically. It is unknown why exposure to structured anima as a spell-caster turns the scales metallic, but this pattern is observed widely throughout dragon-kind.

Black and gold dragons are the exceptions to the chromatic/metallic duality. Attuned to the primal force of destruction itself (rather than to any element), these dragons are the closest things to the original Wyrm that still exist. Black dragons are twisted by exposure to abyssal energies, while gold dragons are suffused with radiant astral energies. This does not make blacks evil and golds good. Both are creatures of destruction and heralds of the end of things, just in different ways. It is not known how they become such, merely that they are dangerous. As exceptions, both blacks and golds can be spellcasters (or not) without showing traces of this training.

Blue : Air aspect
o Preferred terrain: sandy deserts.
o Coloration: They are often sand-colored from above and sky-blue from below, concealing them while they soar through the skies or burrow through the sand.
o Breath: Lightning (line or ball)
Green : Earth aspect
o Preferred terrain: Forests and jungles. They prefer warm, dense, wet terrain. They climb well and often spend less time flying and more time on the ground (or up in trees) than most.
o Coloration: forest camouflage. Greens and browns in shifting patterns.
o Breath: Acidic, toxic spray (cone or line)
Red : Fire aspect
o Preferred terrain: volcanic mountains and caves.
o Coloration: Shades of red through orange and yellow
o Breath: Fire (cone, line, or projectile)
White : Water aspect
o Preferred terrain: glaciers and ice sheets, high mountains.
o Coloration: Greys, whites, grey-blue
o Breath: Freezing vapor (cone or line)

Brass : Air aspect
o Preferred terrain: steep cliffs and mountain valleys, often lairing in the side of a cliff. They love to soar through the air.
o Coloration: silvery, pale yellow. Sometimes with orange or red tones.
o Breath: Concentrated sound (cone). Counts as thunder damage.
Bronze : Water aspect
o Preferred terrain: coastal cliffs and rocky shores, reefs. They swim and spend lots of time underwater.
o Coloration: Golden brown with blue-green highlights.
o Breath: Steam/super-heated water blast (line). Counts as fire damage.
Copper : Earth aspect
o Preferred terrain: rocky deserts.
o Coloration: Orange-brown, shading to green-yellow.
o Breath: Abrasive sand (cone). Counts as acid damage.
Silver : Fire aspect
o Preferred terrain: plains and rolling hills. Cities.
o Coloration: Mirror finish. Silver with other colors present intermittently.
o Breath: Fire (line or ball)

Black : Abyss aspect
o Preferred terrain: any
o Coloration: black with shades of purple and dark green.
o Breath: Necrotic (any)
Gold : Astral aspect
o Preferred terrain: any
o Coloration: Brilliant white-gold. Often appears to be glowing.
o Breath: Radiant (line)

Spoiler: Draconic Society

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Dragons are not highly social creatures. They are not entirely solitary, either. The default social structure for dragons is the flight—anywhere from 1 mated pair to 10-15 adults and a similar number of wyrmlings overseen by an ancient. Young dragons (after the Second Molt) are driven out (or leave on their own) to find their hoards—they may return later but usually either start their own flights or join another flight. Flights larger than a single family-unit (a mated pair and their immature wyrmlings) are usually ruled by an ancient dragon. These larger flights are made up of related dragons—instead they’re held together by the will of that ancient and by shared values. Exceptions exist—the dragons of Bel’s Peace do not have an ancient. The three dragons there all share a hoard (an exceptionally rare circumstance) and are held together by that common tie. Solitary dragons (such as Gozh) are not uncommon.

Each flight claims as much territory as they can hold, usually about a half a day’s flight (20-25 miles) in radius. Since adults don’t need as much food as younglings, they can coexist better. Chromatic dragons tend to prefer terrain away from the cities of mortals (because they aren’t fond of thieves and pointy objects and would rather not have to fight if they don’t have to); metallics often prefer to lair on the edge of mortal societies so they can play (and because most of their hoards depend on mortals). The larger flights tend to split the difference if they have mixed coloration (which some do). Only the largest flights have more than one lair-complex. Dragons of a flight all protect each other’s hoard.
Inter-flight relations are strained.

In ancient times (and reaffirmed periodically at a gathering called the Congress of Wyrms) the first dragons of the 2nd Age made the Law of the Flight, which regulates the behavior of dragon with dragon. Its tenets are few, but clear:
1. No dragon shall use mortals against other dragons. Play with mortals as you wish but using mortals as weapons against dragons will see all the flights turn against you. This includes revealing the lair of another flight.
2. Hatchlings in search of their element are inviolate. Hatchling access to burial grounds must be granted without issue.
3. All flights are responsible for the actions of their dragons. All must answer for the actions of the individual.
4. When one dragon would enter the territory of another flight, they must request permission to hunt or to meddle with mortals in that territory.
5. Disputes are to be brought to a neutral party before going to war. Meddling with the hoard of another dragon is an act of war.
Not all dragons abide by the Law of the Flight. Some (like Marci) are unaware of it; others, like Gozh, consider themselves above it. This puts them outside the protections of the Congress.

The sanctions for violation of the Law are assessed by the surrounding flights—they range from exile to partial loss of hoard to (in the extreme) the destruction of the offending flight and the reallocation of the wyrmlings.

Spoiler: Notable Dragons

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One notable set of dragons claim an entire city-state of mortals as their hoard—the city of Bel’s Peace in the south-eastern Dragonreach region of Noefra. These three dragons (the gold dragon Vladik, the silver known as The Prophet of Peace, and the bronze Blazhi) rule the surrounding area with an iron fist, suppressing dissent and enforcing their standards of righteousness on the populace. In general, their reign is benevolent, and the standard of living has increased significantly since they took over three decades ago. They demand fidelity up a defined chain of command, with the lesser powers obeying their masters zealously and the masters protecting the lesser. Transitions between hierarchy levels is carefully controlled based on non-lethal competitions. While considered weird by other flights, they abide by the Law of the Flight and so are accepted by greater draconic society.

Another notable dragon goes by the name of Marci. This adult brass dragon ostensibly claims the city of Kaelthia in the Council Lands as her hoard, but really hoards stories. She was transformed from a dragonborn into a true dragon by one of the last actions of a pre-Cataclysm deity, now forgotten to time. She lairs above the city her friends founded and watches over it in their memory, although she rarely interferes in the affairs of the city. She has a bad habit of walking among the people in human form and “requesting” that those with interesting stories visit her in her lair to share them in depth. She always pays for their time, but attendance and story time are not optional. Currently she’s watching over the rehabilitation of the mentally-damaged young dragon Elvarg rescued by some adventurers from the Imperial Research Alpha facility before its destruction. She does not participate in broader draconic society but is not outcast—she merely has never made a choice as to the Law of the Flight.

A third notable dragon is Gozh. He is an ancient dragon of uncertain color—visually he’s an albino with traces of black and metallic coloration. One of the oldest dragons on the Noefran continent, he is a powerful spell-caster who prefers humanoid shape so that he can manipulate the mortals to his will. He is a total coward who will run from physical confrontation. Currently laired in the Giant Spine mountain range, he harbors a deep and abiding grudge against dwarven-kind for the actions of a pre-Cataclysm clan. His plans to cause chaos in Fuar Uulan were disrupted by an adventuring party in 210 AC and he has retreated for the moment to figure out a new approach. He is not known to have a flight—it is theorized that he desires control over mortals because of his deviant status. To greater draconic society, he is an outcast and a pariah.

[Sizzlefoot]

I like your dragons, they feel different but don't shock us with deviation.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I like your dragons, they feel different but don't shock us with deviation.

Thanks!

My goal with this setting is to take the "default" settings and make them coherent while keeping as much of the content as possible. I'm going for the holy grail here--the kitchen sink that's internally consistent while still being recognizably "D&D".

But I've always hated the rigid dragons. And my slight OCD-ness about symmetry makes the presence of poison dragons just feel...off.

I have a more mechanical write-up (a "general" stat block for each age category with placeholders for traits and then instructions on strengthening or weakening them) based on the actual printed stat blocks, but that's for a different forum.

[noob]

So if a wyrmling that does not wants to die from molting(which is said to be likely for the first molting) starts to adventure for a way to stay eternally young what would happen to that wyrmling after it finds such a thing?
(for example it becomes a high level enough wizard to use drain life to get younger at each full moon thus allowing it to stay eternally pre first molt phase (Totally possible in one year: a typical adventuring wizard can easily do one balanced encounter per day and at that rate it takes less than 238 days))
Also would not a wyrmling that starts adventuring hate the idea of molting because it would start meeting adventurers and understand that by growing up it would get level adjustment and thus would be weaker?
If a wyrmling makes 50 living zombies before it is one year old and thus age 10^50 times slower does it avoids the danger of the first molting for longer than a normal dragon lives?
If a wyrmling dies from not molting (or from molting) and then gets resurrected what happens?
If a wyrmling have +30 to its fortitude saves and does not fails fortitude saves on a 1 does it still risks to die from getting too old without molting?
(honestly every dragon that is not a wyrmling is uninteresting: when a dragon is not a wyrming it does not have the size of a dog or a cat and also probably have too much level adjustment and thus is boring)

Or does a wyrmling that survives for long without molting is renamed in pseudodragon and that all the pseudodragons are in fact clever dragons who found a way to never take the risks of molting?

[PhoenixPhyre]

I'm using 5e, so the assumptions here just don't hold.

Hatchlings are basically animals (no significant individual mind). It's only after the First Molt that they become individuals and become wyrmlings. After that, the chance of dying in molt comes down to getting killed by another being (and since wyrmlings are protected by their flights, they're pretty safe).

And there's no automatic progression--a wyrmling only becomes a young dragon when it finds an idea for its hoard. And creatures don't pick up class levels or gain XP in 5e (as a general thing, there are exceptions). And wyrmlings don't get spellcasting (my mechanical idea is basically casting similar to a sorcerer of level = CR - 4, and no wyrmlings have CR > 4). Oh, and 5e spell-casting doesn't cost XP.

Edit: and dragons are not a playable race (there's no such thing as level adjustment, for one thing).

So basically, none of the assumptions in your post, @noob, apply to my dragons.

And speaking thematically, wyrmlings are somewhat obsessive about finding a hoard. They tend to investigate everything, being the "curious cat" archetype. This is genetically hard-coded into them. A dragon that does not find a hoard or has a too small of a hoard will starve to death. No amount of regular food can provide enough energy to support a young+ dragon; even wyrmlings are constantly hungry. For a dragon, evolve or die is a physiological imperative. Only the final molt to become an Ancient is optional, and that depends mostly on the social pressures of other dragons in the flight. When the ruling ancient dies/leaves/whatever, one of the adults usually undergoes the Final Molt to replace them. If not, the flight disbands and they all go their separate ways.

Pseudo and faerie dragons are dragon-adjacent creatures--pseudo-dragons are a separate species and faerie dragons are a fey-touched variant of pseudo-dragons.

[noob]

I'm using 5e, so the assumptions here just don't hold.

Hatchlings are basically animals (no significant individual mind). It's only after the First Molt that they become individuals and become wyrmlings. After that, the chance of dying in molt comes down to getting killed by another being (and since wyrmlings are protected by their flights, they're pretty safe).

And there's no automatic progression--a wyrmling only becomes a young dragon when it finds an idea for its hoard. And creatures don't pick up class levels or gain XP in 5e (as a general thing, there are exceptions). And wyrmlings don't get spellcasting (my mechanical idea is basically casting similar to a sorcerer of level = CR - 4, and no wyrmlings have CR > 4). Oh, and 5e spell-casting doesn't cost XP.

Edit: and dragons are not a playable race (there's no such thing as level adjustment, for one thing).

So basically, none of the assumptions in your post, @noob, apply to my dragons.

And speaking thematically, wyrmlings are somewhat obsessive about finding a hoard. They tend to investigate everything, being the "curious cat" archetype. This is genetically hard-coded into them. A dragon that does not find a hoard or has a too small of a hoard will starve to death. No amount of regular food can provide enough energy to support a young+ dragon; even wyrmlings are constantly hungry. For a dragon, evolve or die is a physiological imperative. Only the final molt to become an Ancient is optional, and that depends mostly on the social pressures of other dragons in the flight. When the ruling ancient dies/leaves/whatever, one of the adults usually undergoes the Final Molt to replace them. If not, the flight disbands and they all go their separate ways.

Pseudo and faerie dragons are dragon-adjacent creatures--pseudo-dragons are a separate species and faerie dragons are a fey-touched variant of pseudo-dragons.

seriously hatchlings are people:

Eggs hatch into hatchlings about the size of a large cat, albeit one with wings, scales, and teeth. These newborns gain strength rapidly, growing over about a year’s span until they’re the size of a large dog with a 4-6’ wingspan. While hatchlings, the dragons also pick up information quickly. They’re born with the ability to speak Draconic, but many pick up various mortal languages by the time they become wyrmlings.

Sorry but a creature that can talk and learn new languages quickly is everything but an animal: hatchlings are people (in fact smart people since normal people can not right after birth learn a new language in less than a year and you used a plural meaning that they can even become polyglots meaning they are exceptionally intelligent) and not even sightly animals.
In fact if those hatchlings counts as animals and not as people we could say humans are not people at all during their whole life.

In some previous edition having a language did make you have at least 3 int and 3 int was considered the minimum intelligence to be a person.(below you have animal intelligence)

I am sorry in my previous post I wanted to talk about hatchlings for the whole post but I forgot that your homebrew had a different name for the youngest age category and I said wyrmling by error while I meant hatchling at each time.
So what happens if I resurrect a hatchling that died during molting?

[PhoenixPhyre]

seriously hatchlings are people:

Sorry but an creature that can talk and learn new languages quickly is everything but an animal: hatchlings are people (in fact smart people since normal people can not right after birth learn a new language in less than a year and you used a plural meaning that they can even become polyglots meaning they are exceptionally intelligent) and not even sightly animals.
In fact if those hatchlings counts as animals and not as people we could say humans are animals all their entire life and not people.

Oops--you're right about that.

But still, hatchlings only have one way forward. They're intelligent, but they've got a self-destruct mechanism built into them. If they don't find their element (barring some super-rare outside intervention), they'll not survive. And the rare ones that try will find their parents consider them aberrants and cast them out (and a hatchling has no breath weapon, no resistances, and no special traits). I don't know of any such "non-traditional" hatchling, but they'd be *special* in a bunch of different ways. Likely due to an interaction with an entity such as a Great Old One, a demon[1], or a magitech engineer turning them into a monstrosity. As for resurrecting a "failed" hatchling...I'm not sure. I'd have to think about that. My guess would be that they'd end up either being a Black (necrotic) or a Gold (radiant) depending on the details and the personality.

And the rest of the mechanical bits were specific to 3e's progression system, and don't apply to my setting at all. Not to mention that they're mechanics rules, not fiction rules.

[noob]

Oops--you're right about that.

But still, hatchlings only have one way forward. They're intelligent, but they've got a self-destruct mechanism built into them. If they don't find their element (barring some super-rare outside intervention), they'll not survive. And the rare ones that try will find their parents consider them aberrants and cast them out (and a hatchling has no breath weapon, no resistances, and no special traits). I don't know of any such "non-traditional" hatchling, but they'd be *special* in a bunch of different ways. Likely due to an interaction with an entity such as a Great Old One, a demon[1], or a magitech engineer turning them into a monstrosity.

And the rest of the mechanical bits were specific to 3e's progression system, and don't apply to my setting at all. Not to mention that they're mechanics rules, not fiction rules.

Resurrection is a thing in 5e.

Dragons learning magic in ways other than their natural aptitude is common in d&d fiction.
And if a hatchling during their young age where they does not have their self destruct mechanism activated receive propaganda(for example clerics insists on the fact it should not do anything dangerous) or have specific experiences(such as seeing hatchlings dying from trying to molt and also learning to value life due to stuff like having actual friends which cares about its life and tells it to not molt) it should probably be entitled to make wisdom saves against the draw of wanting to suicide Molt.

Until one year old hatchlings does not try to suicide so before if they see ways to avoid becoming suicidal creatures of course they might want to grab that way.

Also I am quite sure an adventurer could think "oh that creature as small as a cat is too cute" and then that adventurer would likely try to make it younger(maybe true polymorph it into a younger hatchling periodically) because it does not wants to pay for the Resurrection and is not even sure Resurrection would work. (Also older dragons learns slower than hatchlings or else most of them would be wizards since wizardry does not needs intelligence: it only needs learning(with 3 int you can legitimately become a wizard and in fact the only problems you will encounter is that you will prepare few different spells at once at low level(not a problem since you are probably not going to need all the different utility spells at once) and that save based spells will nearly not work(but save based spells will most of the time not be the best spells if you have a team)))

Also in universe wizardry is all about learning so creatures that learns blazingly fast are the most likely to become wizards fast so it is more likely for hatchlings that have their molting delayed to become wizards than for older dragons.
Magitech engineers who wants to stop a dragon from going to the next steps of growth for making a wizard army would make sense since wizardry needs nothing else than learning the right things (and experience if you are an adventurer).

Hatchlings can probably be created with true polymorph so you do not need to anger any dragon in the process of doing shenanigans with hatchlings.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Resurrection is a thing in 5e.

Yeah, I saw that part later and added a bit.

Dragons learning magic in ways other than their natural aptitude is common in d&d fiction.
And if a hatchling during their young age where they does not have their self destruct mechanism activated receive propaganda(for example clerics insists on the fact it should not do anything dangerous) or have specific experiences(such as seeing hatchlings dying from trying to molt and also learning to value life due to stuff like having actual friends which cares about its life and tells it to not molt) it should probably be entitled to make wisdom saves against the draw of wanting to suicide Molt.

Most hatchlings don't leave the lair or the supervision of their parents until they set out on their Molt journey. So they're thoroughly indoctrinated. Remember that they don't even have individual names at this point--their society pushes them toward the Molt pretty heavily. But I guess such a thing could happen.

I'd still bet that the parents would consider them aberrant and cast-out or kill them as soon as it became apparent that they weren't heading toward their Molt.

Until one year old hatchlings does not try to suicide so before if they see ways to avoid becoming suicidal creatures of course they might want to grab that way.

Also I am quite sure an adventurer could think "oh that creature as small as a cat is too cute" and then that adventurer would likely try to make it younger(maybe true polymorph it into a younger hatchling periodically) because it does not wants to pay for the Resurrection and is not even sure Resurrection would work. (Also older dragons learns slower than hatchlings or else most of them would be wizards since wizardry does not needs intelligence: it only needs learning(with 3 int you can legitimately become a wizard))

Also in universe wizardry is all about learning so creatures that learns blazingly fast are the most likely to become wizards fast so it is more likely for hatchlings that have their molting delayed to become wizards than for older dragons.
Magitech engineers who wants to stop a dragon from going to the next steps of growth for making a wizard army would make sense since wizardry needs nothing else than learning the right things(and experience if you are an adventurer).

As far as wizardry, my setting sees things a bit differently (departing from the "stock" lore pretty heavily here). No matter how much you learn, not everyone (even smart ones) may not be able to actually cast spells (ie spend spell slots). And even those that can often cap out early--99% of people who can cast spells cap at about 2nd level spells, no matter how hard they try and learn. That is, spell-casting requires an innate talent and experience. Even for wizards or clerics. It's why most priests are not clerics--they get miracles sometimes when they pray but can't really reallocate their spells like a PC could.

Dragons descend from Wyrm, who wielded True Sorcery (basically will-and-word-based elemental magic, a la Skyrim). Wizardry is an elvish invention (due to a root intervention on the basic framework of reality) that mixed Titan runes and Wyrm sorcery and in doing so diminished both of them and broke those races. So dragons that learn human magic systems really act more like sorcerers--their spell patterns are inherent in their nature rather than learned intellectually. And that capacity doesn't develop until they grow in power (which requires Molting) anyway.

Maturation and growth in power is locked behind the Molts. And that's part of the soul--the Molt is triggered when the hatchling's soul hits its "full" capacity (like a snake shedding its skin when it outgrows it).

So a "unmolted" hatchling would be a stunted thing--forever unable (barring outside intervention) to grow beyond its current state. It would be a hatchling forever, forever unable to become anything else.

[noob]

Yeah, I saw that part later and added a bit.



Most hatchlings don't leave the lair or the supervision of their parents until they set out on their Molt journey. So they're thoroughly indoctrinated. Remember that they don't even have individual names at this point--their society pushes them toward the Molt pretty heavily. But I guess such a thing could happen.

I'd still bet that the parents would consider them aberrant and cast-out or kill them as soon as it became apparent that they weren't heading toward their Molt.



As far as wizardry, my setting sees things a bit differently (departing from the "stock" lore pretty heavily here). No matter how much you learn, not everyone (even smart ones) may not be able to actually cast spells (ie spend spell slots). And even those that can often cap out early--99% of people who can cast spells cap at about 2nd level spells, no matter how hard they try and learn. That is, spell-casting requires an innate talent and experience. Even for wizards or clerics. It's why most priests are not clerics--they get miracles sometimes when they pray but can't really reallocate their spells like a PC could.

Dragons descend from Wyrm, who wielded True Sorcery (basically will-and-word-based elemental magic, a la Skyrim). Wizardry is an elvish invention (due to a root intervention on the basic framework of reality) that mixed Titan runes and Wyrm sorcery and in doing so diminished both of them and broke those races. So dragons that learn human magic systems really act more like sorcerers--their spell patterns are inherent in their nature rather than learned intellectually. And that capacity doesn't develop until they grow in power (which requires Molting) anyway.

Maturation and growth in power is locked behind the Molts. And that's part of the soul--the Molt is triggered when the hatchling's soul hits its "full" capacity (like a snake shedding its skin when it outgrows it).

So a "unmolted" hatchling would be a stunted thing--forever unable (barring outside intervention) to grow beyond its current state. It would be a hatchling forever, forever unable to become anything else.

So dragons that learn human magic systems really act more like sorcerers--their spell patterns are inherent in their nature rather than learned intellectually. And that capacity doesn't develop until they grow in power (which requires Molting) anyway.

Except that wizardry is based on titan runes as well so a dragon which starts reading wizardry books and applying the recipes to the letter would somehow still not be using titan runes and yet obtain non elemental results(like casting detect magic)?

the Molt is triggered when the hatchling's soul hits its "full" capacity (like a snake shedding its skin when it outgrows it).


So a "unmolted" hatchling would be a stunted thing--forever unable (barring outside intervention) to grow beyond its current state. It would be a hatchling forever, forever unable to become anything else.

It would be a hatchling but clearly growth is not based on knowledge at least for the next steps otherwise the next steps would not be based on hoard.
So does hatchlings have capped amount of learning and then can not learn more?
Would the hatchling forget old stuff when they learn new stuff?
Does brains actually do anything in your setting?
Does willforce depends on the soul?
Is wisdom capped for a hatchling and does reducing the wisdom of the hatchling means you empty their soul(in which case you would be able to stay in a state of not wanting to suicide forever by taking periodically poisons that reduce wisdom which would mean that wisdom reduction would make you wiser ironically)?
Also do you mean clericking is based on inner magic?
Then it means gods are just scamming clerics in believing they actually get something from them.

And if a hatchling that died of molting(or of not molting) gets resurrected why does it transforms in something that have nothing to do with what killed them them while they had no cocooning time.

Also if souls are race based(since you said that dragons did not have the same kind of souls as the other creatures) what does reincarnate does in your setting?
And for True polymorph what does it do to the soul?
Could I true polymorph someone unable to cast spells into an "human with a soul able to learn spells up to the ninth level"
And if I reincarnate someone who had the potential to cast ninth level spells would that person risk to lose that.
If I reincarnate a hatchling into a goblin does it souls stays capped in capacity in the same way?

Does simulacrums have souls made out of snow that like the rest of them can not evolve?(or else how do they cast)
(I also wonder: what happens to the simulacrum soul if I cast true polymorph on the simulacrum)

Honestly soul racism immediately create megatons of rule complexity.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Except that wizardry is based on titan runes as well so a dragon which starts reading wizardry books and applying the recipes to the letter would somehow still not be using titan runes and yet obtain non elemental results(like casting detect magic)?

All organized spellcasting (doing magic rather than being magic) requires a seed of talent. And different people have this capability in different ways, letting them learn and use certain patterns (spells) but not others. So if a random urchin steals a spell-book it will likely not benefit him at all even if he can decipher the way it is written. Many people can (eventually, with training or selection) learn to cast one 1st level spell per day, as well as some cantrips (basically at will). But that spell is fixed--that's the only one they know, and casting it takes effort. Others learn ritual magic (slow, but less energy-costly).

But in general, knowing magic and casting spells are different. Some of the greatest magical scholars are pretty lousy spell-casters (if they can cast at all). Wizardry, in particular, used to be tied to the High Elven bloodline (because they invented it and weeded out anyone who couldn't use it). That changed in the last 200 years because the current God of Magic doesn't like that way of doing things, but only slowly. Dragons and giants particularly don't like wizardry, because of its role in the downfall of their ancestors. Long memories and all that.

Dragons, when they learn magic, do so in a way that's outside the "mortal" traditions. Basically they force the patterns into existence by force of will (casting using CHA, like sorcerers), but only "resonate" with patterns linked to their way of life. So a sneaky, tricksy dragon would find himself able to learn illusions and such, while a crusading dragon might learn spells that look more like those of a paladin. All of this happens by experimentation and personal introspection rather than book learning.

It would be a hatchling but clearly growth is not based on knowledge at least for the next steps otherwise the next steps would not be based on hoard.
So does hatchlings have capped amount of learning and then can not learn more?
Would the hatchling forget old stuff when they learn new stuff?

Growth is governed by a few factors--
* Intake of energy. The small ones can pull in enough to survive by eating normal food, the big ones can't. They need the power from their hoard to survive.
* Soul capacity. More specifically, the interplay of body and spark through the nimbus (spirit). Dragons necessarily have large sparks. So big in fact that their hatchling bodies can't handle it after just a short time and start breaking down. It takes a huge influx of outside energy (usually elemental because that's what they're most attuned to from their creation) to bridge the gap, to rebuild the body into something that can handle the spark.
* Personal factors. Not all dragons are the same or have the same limits. Some barely make it to adult status, some are effectively unbounded. Many (those with weak body-spirit-spark connections) get broken by the transition (happens too fast, is too violent, or whatever) and lose most of their mental faculties (wyverns, drakes, etc). The "civilized" flights know that when a First Molt happens using the energy from a dragon graveyard (the crystallized, high-power remains of dead adult dragons), the Molt is most likely to be a success and most survive. That's why they protect those graveyards ferociously.

But in general, the first two stages happen pretty quick. The hatchlings can, likely, delay the First Molt, but sooner or later it's molt or die. And then wyrmlings are on a ticking clock themselves. And even if they're not actively searching, once they find their hoard, the process is automatic and involuntary.

Does brains actually do anything in your setting?
Does willforce depends on the soul?
Is wisdom capped for a hatchling and does reducing the wisdom of the hatchling means you empty their soul(in which case you would be able to stay in a state of not wanting to suicide forever by taking periodically poisons that reduce wisdom which would mean that wisdom reduction would make you wiser ironically)?

Brains make you smarter. Make it easier to know and remember things. If you're one of those wizarding types (ie have the necessary connection for wizardry), it makes it so you can have more spells ready at a time and use them better. Being smart doesn't mean you can be a wizard though. Nor does being stupid prevent being a wizard. There are some moronic high elves who have the talent but only use it to dress up pretty.

Wisdom (the ability score) has nothing to do with any such thing in 5e. It's about being perceptive and attuned to things around you, nothing more. It has nothing to do with willpower (per se). Wisdom saving throws are about realizing that it's an outside influence. Charisma is more force of will, IMO. And changes in wisdom doesn't have anything to do with soul capacity or potential either.

Not wanting to molt is a guaranteed form of suicide, because a hatchling is in an unstable state. Yes, the molt is risky. But not molting is a sure death sentence, barring divine (or demonic) intervention. And that only works by leaving you something else entirely. If you prevent a caterpillar from spinning its cocoon, it dies. So for the hatchlings (except the aberrant ones), the First Molt urge is seen as an opportunity. A chance to prove your strength.

Also do you mean clericking is based on inner magic?
Then it means gods are just scamming clerics in believing they actually get something from them.

To be a cleric (ie cast cleric spells) requires two things. First, it requires the generic "has spell slots" soul trait. Second, it requires a god to choose them, effectively giving them user accounts on the Great Mechanism. Most of a cleric's spells come straight from that connection (ie `sudo heal($target)`) rather than from the god in some direct sense. Many of the other cleric features (channel divinity, etc.) are more directed divine blessings.

For those many who can't be autonomous clerics, they get miracles direct from the god (or usually from the god's agents) when and if the god decides to grant them. A cleric actually gets to choose for most effects. Basically, most priests can use Divine Intervention, except instead of a percentage chance it's a "when the god feels like it." Which isn't often, since most people aren't attuned to the god's will enough to channel that energy very well at all. Like trying to drain a river through a straw.

This makes true clerics a hot commodity. In fact, there are several factions who think they're getting power by worshiping god X but are really sponsored by god Y (in one known case Y is doing it for kicks and giggles, because he's the god of practical jokes).

And if a hatchling that died of molting(or of not molting) gets resurrected why does it transforms in something that have nothing to do with what killed them them while they had no cocooning time.

Resurrection requires building a body that can house the spark and then pulling the spark down into that. As I said above, hatchlings are unstable. So putting them back into a hatchling body would be instantly fatal--the hatchling died effectively of old age (body/spark mismatch, same as anyone else dying of old age). So they have to be a wyrmling at that point...but wyrmlings are attuned to one of the elements (or the abyss or the astral plane). So depending on who is doing the resurrection and what "color" the magic is, you're most likely to get a black (demonic-influence but not inherently evil) dragon or a gold (astral-influence but not inherently good) wyrmling. The ones that die during the molt generally don't leave bodies behind and don't have names enough to use True Resurrection on. So that's a really really rare case that would probably happen on a case-by-case basis.

Also if souls are race based(since you said that dragons did not have the same kind of souls as the other creatures) what does reincarnate does in your setting?
And for True polymorph what does it do to the soul?
Could I true polymorph someone unable to cast spells into an "human with a soul able to learn spells up to the ninth level"
And if I reincarnate someone who had the potential to cast ninth level spells would that person risk to lose that.
If I reincarnate a hatchling into a goblin does it souls stays capped in capacity in the same way?

Does simulacrums have souls made out of snow that like the rest of them can not evolve?(or else how do they cast)
(I also wonder: what happens to the simulacrum soul if I cast true polymorph on the simulacrum)

Honestly soul racism immediately create megatons of rule complexity.

Dragons' souls are very similar in basic nature to other beings. I'm not sure where I said otherwise--everybody follows those same rules. They're different in size and complexity. Remember that the soul (for me) is a combination of body, spark (identity), and spirit (the connection between the other two and the world). So a dragon's soul includes their body. Just like a caterpillar becomes a butterfly, but are the same type of being, so does a hatchling become a wyrmling or die trying.

Reincarnate asks the local kami (nature spirits) to build a body for the person whose spark you have claimed as the target. Kami are...well...not very good with the differences between types of "mortal" (ie non-kami) beings. They're also known for being flighty and not listening to people very well. So what you get is a bit random. Has nothing to do with the Spark itself--that's the same. But the body (and thus the soul) changes. Some might reject the change (with usually fatal consequences as they reject themselves), others might find it freeing.

Using reincarnate on a being like a dragon is, well, fraught with interesting possibilities. It'd likely work, but what comes out the other side is anybody's guess. Likely, the spark reflows to meet the new body's potential. So a "capped" hatchling might fit comfortably into a goblin's space (bigger body usually means bigger capacity). Whether that would work is another question. The kami might think that the only valid form of a dragon is another dragon. But since reincarnate makes adult forms, you'd end up with a hatchling mind in an adults' body. And without a hoard, that adult is going to starve very quickly (probably while also being a destructive menace as it fruitlessly tries to slake its hunger by eating everything around it).

Note: for game purposes I would always rule that people keep their capabilities (spell-casting, potential, etc) when reincarnated. Whether that's a setting fact is another matter.

True polymorph doesn't alter the spark of a living being. Note that you can't TP a living being into something stronger than it already is (the system mapping for higher CR). If you use it on an object, however, you end up with a soul that wasn't that kind of being before. I could see this working in a bunch of ways (and I don't think it has to be only one way for all cases)--you might bind a kami to this new body that you created with the spell, giving it life in that way. All things have a kami associated with them. You might summon a new spark from wherever sparks come from (in-universe, that's an unanswered question. Not even the gods know). Whatever the result, the new creation is only as durable as the spell--if it is disrupted (either by losing concentration before 1 hr or by dispel magic or hitting 0 HP, later), the new body is gone and the object reverts.

True polymorph, being a 9th level spell, gets to break some of the rules. It can graft on spell-casting potential if needed. You're making a root-level system call to the universe's OS, and it sets the rules. Same with wish.

Simulacrum, as part of its structure, creates a body + spirit (but lacking a spark). It can't learn, it can't grow (as those are functions of a spark), and it can't refresh the energy it has. So it has whatever the source creature had at the time of creation. It doesn't really have a soul. As it's an edge case, I'd say that TP on a simulacrum has the same implications as TP on an object, except limited by the simulacrum's source for CR.

As for TP into a dragon--that's a known thing. Marci, one of the more commonly known ones, used to be a dragonborn sorcerer. She was granted a boon by a god (sort-of, it's complicated) that effectively transformed her into a young dragon, skipping the previous stages. The change in the body built in time as a buffer but unless she had found her hoard quickly, she'd have been subject to the same fate as any dragon that can't complete the stages of growth.

So TP of an object (or creature) into a hatchling would produce something that's bound by all the rules of a hatchling dragon. Except that if it dies by hit point loss, it pops back to its original form (because the spell has a safety valve in it). Dying by other means wouldn't trigger that.

Souls aren't racist (if I understand what you mean, which I must admit I'm very fuzzy on), but the spark adapts to the body and the body to the spark. Together they are the soul. Change either one and the set changes.

[noob]

All organized spellcasting (doing magic rather than being magic) requires a seed of talent. And different people have this capability in different ways, letting them learn and use certain patterns (spells) but not others. So if a random urchin steals a spell-book it will likely not benefit him at all even if he can decipher the way it is written. Many people can (eventually, with training or selection) learn to cast one 1st level spell per day, as well as some cantrips (basically at will). But that spell is fixed--that's the only one they know, and casting it takes effort. Others learn ritual magic (slow, but less energy-costly).

But in general, knowing magic and casting spells are different. Some of the greatest magical scholars are pretty lousy spell-casters (if they can cast at all). Wizardry, in particular, used to be tied to the High Elven bloodline (because they invented it and weeded out anyone who couldn't use it). That changed in the last 200 years because the current God of Magic doesn't like that way of doing things, but only slowly. Dragons and giants particularly don't like wizardry, because of its role in the downfall of their ancestors. Long memories and all that.

Dragons, when they learn magic, do so in a way that's outside the "mortal" traditions. Basically they force the patterns into existence by force of will (casting using CHA, like sorcerers), but only "resonate" with patterns linked to their way of life. So a sneaky, tricksy dragon would find himself able to learn illusions and such, while a crusading dragon might learn spells that look more like those of a paladin. All of this happens by experimentation and personal introspection rather than book learning.



Growth is governed by a few factors--
* Intake of energy. The small ones can pull in enough to survive by eating normal food, the big ones can't. They need the power from their hoard to survive.
* Soul capacity. More specifically, the interplay of body and spark through the nimbus (spirit). Dragons necessarily have large sparks. So big in fact that their hatchling bodies can't handle it after just a short time and start breaking down. It takes a huge influx of outside energy (usually elemental because that's what they're most attuned to from their creation) to bridge the gap, to rebuild the body into something that can handle the spark.
* Personal factors. Not all dragons are the same or have the same limits. Some barely make it to adult status, some are effectively unbounded. Many (those with weak body-spirit-spark connections) get broken by the transition (happens too fast, is too violent, or whatever) and lose most of their mental faculties (wyverns, drakes, etc). The "civilized" flights know that when a First Molt happens using the energy from a dragon graveyard (the crystallized, high-power remains of dead adult dragons), the Molt is most likely to be a success and most survive. That's why they protect those graveyards ferociously.

But in general, the first two stages happen pretty quick. The hatchlings can, likely, delay the First Molt, but sooner or later it's molt or die. And then wyrmlings are on a ticking clock themselves. And even if they're not actively searching, once they find their hoard, the process is automatic and involuntary.



Brains make you smarter. Make it easier to know and remember things. If you're one of those wizarding types (ie have the necessary connection for wizardry), it makes it so you can have more spells ready at a time and use them better. Being smart doesn't mean you can be a wizard though. Nor does being stupid prevent being a wizard. There are some moronic high elves who have the talent but only use it to dress up pretty.

Wisdom (the ability score) has nothing to do with any such thing in 5e. It's about being perceptive and attuned to things around you, nothing more. It has nothing to do with willpower (per se). Wisdom saving throws are about realizing that it's an outside influence. Charisma is more force of will, IMO. And changes in wisdom doesn't have anything to do with soul capacity or potential either.

Not wanting to molt is a guaranteed form of suicide, because a hatchling is in an unstable state. Yes, the molt is risky. But not molting is a sure death sentence, barring divine (or demonic) intervention. And that only works by leaving you something else entirely. If you prevent a caterpillar from spinning its cocoon, it dies. So for the hatchlings (except the aberrant ones), the First Molt urge is seen as an opportunity. A chance to prove your strength.



To be a cleric (ie cast cleric spells) requires two things. First, it requires the generic "has spell slots" soul trait. Second, it requires a god to choose them, effectively giving them user accounts on the Great Mechanism. Most of a cleric's spells come straight from that connection (ie `sudo heal($target)`) rather than from the god in some direct sense. Many of the other cleric features (channel divinity, etc.) are more directed divine blessings.

For those many who can't be autonomous clerics, they get miracles direct from the god (or usually from the god's agents) when and if the god decides to grant them. A cleric actually gets to choose for most effects. Basically, most priests can use Divine Intervention, except instead of a percentage chance it's a "when the god feels like it." Which isn't often, since most people aren't attuned to the god's will enough to channel that energy very well at all. Like trying to drain a river through a straw.

This makes true clerics a hot commodity. In fact, there are several factions who think they're getting power by worshiping god X but are really sponsored by god Y (in one known case Y is doing it for kicks and giggles, because he's the god of practical jokes).



Resurrection requires building a body that can house the spark and then pulling the spark down into that. As I said above, hatchlings are unstable. So putting them back into a hatchling body would be instantly fatal--the hatchling died effectively of old age (body/spark mismatch, same as anyone else dying of old age). So they have to be a wyrmling at that point...but wyrmlings are attuned to one of the elements (or the abyss or the astral plane). So depending on who is doing the resurrection and what "color" the magic is, you're most likely to get a black (demonic-influence but not inherently evil) dragon or a gold (astral-influence but not inherently good) wyrmling. The ones that die during the molt generally don't leave bodies behind and don't have names enough to use True Resurrection on. So that's a really really rare case that would probably happen on a case-by-case basis.



Dragons' souls are very similar in basic nature to other beings. I'm not sure where I said otherwise--everybody follows those same rules. They're different in size and complexity. Remember that the soul (for me) is a combination of body, spark (identity), and spirit (the connection between the other two and the world). So a dragon's soul includes their body. Just like a caterpillar becomes a butterfly, but are the same type of being, so does a hatchling become a wyrmling or die trying.

Reincarnate asks the local kami (nature spirits) to build a body for the person whose spark you have claimed as the target. Kami are...well...not very good with the differences between types of "mortal" (ie non-kami) beings. They're also known for being flighty and not listening to people very well. So what you get is a bit random. Has nothing to do with the Spark itself--that's the same. But the body (and thus the soul) changes. Some might reject the change (with usually fatal consequences as they reject themselves), others might find it freeing.

Using reincarnate on a being like a dragon is, well, fraught with interesting possibilities. It'd likely work, but what comes out the other side is anybody's guess. Likely, the spark reflows to meet the new body's potential. So a "capped" hatchling might fit comfortably into a goblin's space (bigger body usually means bigger capacity). Whether that would work is another question. The kami might think that the only valid form of a dragon is another dragon. But since reincarnate makes adult forms, you'd end up with a hatchling mind in an adults' body. And without a hoard, that adult is going to starve very quickly (probably while also being a destructive menace as it fruitlessly tries to slake its hunger by eating everything around it).

Note: for game purposes I would always rule that people keep their capabilities (spell-casting, potential, etc) when reincarnated. Whether that's a setting fact is another matter.

True polymorph doesn't alter the spark of a living being. Note that you can't TP a living being into something stronger than it already is (the system mapping for higher CR). If you use it on an object, however, you end up with a soul that wasn't that kind of being before. I could see this working in a bunch of ways (and I don't think it has to be only one way for all cases)--you might bind a kami to this new body that you created with the spell, giving it life in that way. All things have a kami associated with them. You might summon a new spark from wherever sparks come from (in-universe, that's an unanswered question. Not even the gods know). Whatever the result, the new creation is only as durable as the spell--if it is disrupted (either by losing concentration before 1 hr or by dispel magic or hitting 0 HP, later), the new body is gone and the object reverts.

True polymorph, being a 9th level spell, gets to break some of the rules. It can graft on spell-casting potential if needed. You're making a root-level system call to the universe's OS, and it sets the rules. Same with wish.

Simulacrum, as part of its structure, creates a body + spirit (but lacking a spark). It can't learn, it can't grow (as those are functions of a spark), and it can't refresh the energy it has. So it has whatever the source creature had at the time of creation. It doesn't really have a soul. As it's an edge case, I'd say that TP on a simulacrum has the same implications as TP on an object, except limited by the simulacrum's source for CR.

As for TP into a dragon--that's a known thing. Marci, one of the more commonly known ones, used to be a dragonborn sorcerer. She was granted a boon by a god (sort-of, it's complicated) that effectively transformed her into a young dragon, skipping the previous stages. The change in the body built in time as a buffer but unless she had found her hoard quickly, she'd have been subject to the same fate as any dragon that can't complete the stages of growth.

So TP of an object (or creature) into a hatchling would produce something that's bound by all the rules of a hatchling dragon. Except that if it dies by hit point loss, it pops back to its original form (because the spell has a safety valve in it). Dying by other means wouldn't trigger that.

Souls aren't racist (if I understand what you mean, which I must admit I'm very fuzzy on), but the spark adapts to the body and the body to the spark. Together they are the soul. Change either one and the set changes.

Still souls of different races are different.
So it is a whole new level of racism that is even more racist than previous kinds of racism.
Usually racist people says "this person is inferior" but not "this person is inferior and its soul is inferior too"

Also a simulacrum is by default a creature:

The duplicate is a creature, partially real and formed from ice or snow

So while it is partially real it is still a creature so logically true polymorph would work on it as on a creature unless in your setting simulacrums are less creatures than in the spell description(rewriting spells for a setting is a logical thing).

As for TP into a dragon--that's a known thing. Marci, one of the more commonly known ones, used to be a dragonborn sorcerer. She was granted a boon by a god (sort-of, it's complicated) that effectively transformed her into a young dragon, skipping the previous stages. The change in the body built in time as a buffer but unless she had found her hoard quickly, she'd have been subject to the same fate as any dragon that can't complete the stages of growth.

The ones that die during the molt generally don't leave bodies behind and don't have names enough to use True Resurrection on. So that's a really really rare case that would probably happen on a case-by-case basis.

Someone who talked enough to learn 2 languages probably have a name and a significant identity.

Not wanting to molt is a guaranteed form of suicide, because a hatchling is in an unstable state. Yes, the molt is risky. But not molting is a sure death sentence, barring divine (or demonic) intervention. And that only works by leaving you something else entirely. If you prevent a caterpillar from spinning its cocoon, it dies. So for the hatchlings (except the aberrant ones), the First Molt urge is seen as an opportunity. A chance to prove your strength.

Or you could convince a high caster to protect you from the problems of not molting such as asking a wizard to turn you into a younger hatchling(since you do not want to be turned into an older dragon since it creates tons of problems you mentioned) or even into an entirely different specie altogether. so trying to get to be a friend of one of those high level wizards that just sits there alone in a tower studying magic could be an alternate way of surviving.

All organized spellcasting (doing magic rather than being magic) requires a seed of talent. And different people have this capability in different ways, letting them learn and use certain patterns (spells) but not others. So if a random urchin steals a spell-book it will likely not benefit him at all even if he can decipher the way it is written. Many people can (eventually, with training or selection) learn to cast one 1st level spell per day, as well as some cantrips (basically at will). But that spell is fixed--that's the only one they know, and casting it takes effort. Others learn ritual magic (slow, but less energy-costly).

But in general, knowing magic and casting spells are different. Some of the greatest magical scholars are pretty lousy spell-casters (if they can cast at all). Wizardry, in particular, used to be tied to the High Elven bloodline (because they invented it and weeded out anyone who couldn't use it). That changed in the last 200 years because the current God of Magic doesn't like that way of doing things, but only slowly. Dragons and giants particularly don't like wizardry, because of its role in the downfall of their ancestors. Long memories and all that.

Dragons, when they learn magic, do so in a way that's outside the "mortal" traditions. Basically they force the patterns into existence by force of will (casting using CHA, like sorcerers), but only "resonate" with patterns linked to their way of life. So a sneaky, tricksy dragon would find himself able to learn illusions and such, while a crusading dragon might learn spells that look more like those of a paladin. All of this happens by experimentation and personal introspection rather than book learning.

So what prevents a dragon from trying to learn magic in the same way as a mortal such as a dragon that is extremely pious and try to study clerical magic in an human church.

And the question of if it is possible to true polymorph someone into an "human with the potential to hold ninth level spells" stills stays and if it is possible then we could imagine that enough organized wizard could start making a great school of wizardry.

Dragons are often close to maximum capacity and have a capacity depending on the body size so does it means that if I shrink a dragon it then explodes?

If I use Imprisonement: minimus containement onto the biggest dragon how big is the explosion?
Could it be used to destroy countries?

were you the one with the liches that drains the content of the spirits?
Since hatchlings produce spirit at an astonishing rate and can die from excess of that could a lich possibly feed from the excess of one or two hatchlings thus keeping them and the lich alive for longer?

Or maybe a healer that saw many people die of old age and that use this thrauma to evolve into a lich could then set up a small shop where it sells anima draining(which did help humans to live longer if I remember well) thus not only helping people but also feeding itself and getting richer and once that gets enough well known others might follow the example and become liches for the same purpose(or just by greed).

[PhoenixPhyre]

Still souls of different races are different.
So it is a whole new level of racism that is even more racist than previous kinds of racism.
Usually racist people says "this person is inferior" but not "this person is inferior and its soul is inferior too"

Also a simulacrum is by default a creature:
So while it is partially real it is still a creature so logically true polymorph would work on it as on a creature unless in your setting simulacrums are less creatures than in the spell description(rewriting spells for a setting is a logical thing).

That's not a racial thing as much as it is an individual thing. Not all individuals are the same. I speak in generalities, because there are trends. Bigger usually means more capacity. This does not equate to moral worth, intellectual capacity, or any other such thing. You can just hold more raw anima (because you have to to keep your body together). Dinosaurs are big and strong, but that doesn't make them better. Goblins are small, but that doesn't make them worse. Just different.

And the capacity needed for spell-casting, to be precise, isn't about raw power. There are lots of very big, very powerful creatures who can't cast a cantrip. Even a tiny, weak fey being (such as a sprite) can cast spells, because the total energy involved is small. But those connections are intrinsic and take time to develop. Just like sexual maturity, a hatchling just doesn't (always barring exceptional cases here) have that potential developed yet. It's blocked behind the rest of the things that must happen to develop.

As for simulacrums--the nature of a simulacrum is not as easy as simply quoting the rules. Because those are not the rules of the world. They're the game abstractions--things that are creatures (by the rules) are not necessarily ensouled beings (in the world) and vice versa. I'm leaving that one open and not deciding anything about it yet.

Someone who talked enough to learn 2 languages probably have a name and a significant identity.

Not inherently. I know lots of kids (3-5 year olds) who can speak very well but have loose concepts of me vs not-me. More precisely, they don't really believe that others are real. A name, for a hatchling, is a label. Like a name for a human. As they grow, their names become them (and they become their names). To a post-hatchling dragon, their names define who they are and they are bound by their names. Hatchlings have arbitrary labels that mean me, but not NAMES.

Or you could convince a high caster to protect you from the problems of not molting such as asking a wizard to turn you into a younger hatchling(since you do not want to be turned into an older dragon since it creates tons of problems you mentioned) or even into an entirely different specie altogether. so trying to get to be a friend of one of those high level wizards that just sits there alone in a tower studying magic could be an alternate way of surviving.

That's possible, but that requires finding a high level caster. And those are rare. For example, in all the main play area nations, there are maybe 1-2 people who can cast 9th level spells. One's a cleric, one's a wizard. And he doesn't care about such things (being old and senile). He doesn't even know True Polymorph.

So what prevents a dragon from trying to learn magic in the same way as a mortal such as a dragon that is extremely pious and try to study clerical magic in an human church.

They can, but they usually don't. Again, I'm speaking of the general case--there are always exceptions. In fact, there's one particular green dragon who is beginning that process. He's also clinically insane (disassociated personality disorder) and was never part of draconic society. Exceptions always exist, but they're exceptional cases.

And the question of if it is possible to true polymorph someone into an "human with the potential to hold ninth level spells" stills stays and if it is possible then we could imagine that enough organized wizard could start making a great school of wizardry.

I don't think the current God of Magic would look favorably on that situation. First, people who can cast that are really rare to begin with. Like single digits on a continent. Second, that requires messing with a spark. And that runs the risk of dealing with the demonic if things go wrong. And that would be a bad thing.

The current Demon Prince of Black Magic (sort-of) would also not appreciate shenanigans of that order.

Plus the risk of a dispel magic...

As a DM I would say no to trying to change the potential of a person in that way.

Dragons are often close to maximum capacity and have a capacity depending on the body size so does it means that if I shrink a dragon it then explodes?

If I use Imprisonement: minimus containement onto the biggest dragon how big is the explosion?
Could it be used to destroy countries?

The spell takes care of that. The current God of Magic (who sets exactly what the spells can do) looks badly on spells of mass-destruction and so the spells have safety valves built in.

And it's not that size sets capacity but that size sets minimum required capacity. You have to be able to handle X anima to have a body of size Y. Polymorph-type (or shrink) spells provide temporary extra capacity (in either direction) as a buffer.

were you the one with the liches that drains the content of the spirits?
Since hatchlings produce spirit at an astonishing rate and can die from excess of that could a lich possibly feed from the excess of one or two hatchlings thus keeping them and the lich alive for longer?

Or maybe a healer that saw many people die of old age and that use this thrauma to evolve into a lich could then set up a small shop where it sells anima draining(which did help humans to live longer if I remember well) thus not only helping people but also feeding itself and getting richer and once that gets enough well known others might follow the example and become liches for the same purpose(or just by greed).

In principle, yes. But liches tend to fight a bottomless hunger. So it's possible but not probable.

It's not so much that "once people fill up with anima, they die", it's like they're a balloon. Each one can hold a certain amount of air before it pops. But if you fill it too far, it starts to stretch. Pulling the air out of a balloon that was near its limit (past the elastic limit) is permanently deformed. It's a homeostasis in the short-term, but growing on the long scale. And since anima is associated with memory and skills, traumatically losing anima tends to leave people disoriented, amnesiac, or more prone to sickness or more vulnerable to lasting injury.

So in general, lots of what you suggest is possible. It could happen, but it's not the norm (or even widespread). You might have one or two hatchlings that have "escaped" the molt. But they'd be rare because the forces (both physical and social) are just that strong.

[noob]

What are the objectives of the current god of magic that are somehow hampered by the production of high level casters that can vanish on a dispel magic?
And were not demon creatures with no shell limiting their maximum amount of anima and if so how are they related to transforming people with true polymorph?
Also can we smash together all the demons to get a stronger demon?

[PhoenixPhyre]

What are the objectives of the current god of magic that are somehow hampered by the production of high level casters that can vanish on a dispel magic?
And were not demon creatures with no shell limiting their maximum amount of anima and if so how are they related to transforming people with true polymorph?
Also can we smash together all the demons to get a stronger demon?

He strongly wants stability. And messing about with souls on a detailed level has caused a couple of nuclear-equivalent wars so far. He's under strict instructions to keep that from happening again.

Demons are what happens when beings devour the spark of another being. Eating the body? Fine. Eating the "spirit"? Mostly fine. Eating the spark? Bad things. Yes, you can transcend your "mortal" limits. They still have bodies, it's just that they end up (inherently) replacing part of their operating energy with "enslaved" (absorbed and forcibly subordinated) other sparks. Since that violates the operating laws of the universe, it ends up with abyssal-aspected anima, which is unstable in the mortal plane.

Becoming a demon is a self-limiting move--you become unable to produce your own anima and must subsist parasitically. Why? Because the one that set up the universe decided that would be the case back at the Dawn War when the world was founded in the way it was.

And yes, you can "smash together" demons to make stronger ones. More precisely, one demon can absorb another demon. That's .a primary goal of several factions of demons, in fact. Others prefer the taste of mortal sparks.

In general, demons are creatures that break the operating order of the universe. They're not evil, just dangerous to be around because their very essence changes the souls of those they touch.

[noob]

He strongly wants stability. And messing about with souls on a detailed level has caused a couple of nuclear-equivalent wars so far. He's under strict instructions to keep that from happening again.

Demons are what happens when beings devour the spark of another being. Eating the body? Fine. Eating the "spirit"? Mostly fine. Eating the spark? Bad things. Yes, you can transcend your "mortal" limits. They still have bodies, it's just that they end up (inherently) replacing part of their operating energy with "enslaved" (absorbed and forcibly subordinated) other sparks. Since that violates the operating laws of the universe, it ends up with abyssal-aspected anima, which is unstable in the mortal plane.

Becoming a demon is a self-limiting move--you become unable to produce your own anima and must subsist parasitically. Why? Because the one that set up the universe decided that would be the case back at the Dawn War when the world was founded in the way it was.

And yes, you can "smash together" demons to make stronger ones. More precisely, one demon can absorb another demon. That's .a primary goal of several factions of demons, in fact. Others prefer the taste of mortal sparks.

In general, demons are creatures that break the operating order of the universe. They're not evil, just dangerous to be around because their very essence changes the souls of those they touch.

I never spoke of becoming a demon I only asked why would demons get involved if someone starts transforming souls.
Also if people starts messing up with souls on a large scale such as starting lich operated shops where lich sells anima draining(getting drained once when you are 40 years old for living some more or other stuff like that) which kind of stuff would the deity of magic throw at the problem?(would it throw fireballs or would it send servants at the problem?)

[PhoenixPhyre]

I never spoke of becoming a demon I only asked why would demons get involved if someone starts transforming souls.

Operations that directly manipulate the spark of a living being (at least when performed by mortals) have the potential to invoke (even unintentionally) blood magic (ie abyssally-influenced magic) and thus begin the demonic transformation (in the caster, the subject, and/or anyone in the surrounding area). This is even more true as the duration or magnitude of that meddling increases. One of the catastrophies that resulted from such meddling was triggered because a group of amoral "scientist" types made dragonborn by forcibly carving off parts of draconic sparks (keeping wyrmling and young dragons in captivity and magically extracting parts of their souls) and implanting it in unborn human children.

Resurrection gets around this by invoking divine (or non-mortal in the case of reincarnate) intervention (who can do so without that risk). Most other spells that mortals can cast only affect the body or spirit, leaving the spark to adapt. It's a fine line, but one I'm fine with.

Also if people starts messing up with souls on a large scale such as starting lich operated shops where lich sells anima draining(getting drained once when you are 40 years old for living some more or other stuff like that) which kind of stuff would the deity of magic throw at the problem?(would it throw fireballs or would it send servants at the problem?)

He'd simply change the rules of magic so those spells don't work that way any more. That's something directly in his divine portfolio and jurisdiction, so he has effectively plenary power[1] to write the implementation details, as long as wizardry (in some broader sense) still works. So he can't just shut off wizardry entirely, but he can disable "exploits" with a thought. He'd send agents (what kind would depend on the situation, but ranging from mortal acolytes/other wizards or imps[2] all the way up to demi-gods) for things where he'd have to tread more lightly due to overlaps with other gods or things that were outside his direct purview.

[1] except in one particular city that is cut off from extra-planar influence entirely due to an artifact that predates the gods. And there, part of that city works by trading anima for food--people sell parts of their souls (it regrows, but leaves you weak for a bit) and that gets compressed and turned into power and food. Most of the normal rules are in abeyance there, but access in or out of that city might be a bit difficult (ie fatal unless you're already quite powerful). They don't do visitors (being tucked off at the end of the world with hostile terrain around it and hidden under a "we don't exist" field for quite a while now. Didn't used to be that way, but...

[2] my devils are the gods' interface/errand boys for the mortal plane. Angels are too busy policing the Barrier to the Great Beyond and keeping order in the elemental planes (loosely...they only get involved if there's threats of rebellion that would leak outward and affect the universal order). Most angels don't do well with mortals either--"we had to destroy the village...and the 300 sq. miles around it...to save it" would be something they'd be fine with saying. Devils are not evil (inherently, some are). Most sapient inhabitants of the Astral plane are actually properly classified as devils/fiends.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I will say that the "subsisting on energy from a hoard" trick that dragons do isn't unique to them (although they're the big names in the business). One particular lich made (part of) his lair into an art gallery, showing off ancient and carefully preserved artwork and famous items. He fed off of the admiration and feelings of the visitors. Oh, and the occasional snack on the life-force of a would-be robber, but everyone cheats on their diet, don't you know?

Worked great, until magic went out/got broke for a while and the visitors stopped coming. Getting eaten by an intelligent, malicious thought form of Gluttony wasn't too good for him either. Thankfully some adventurers stopped by and nuked the Gluttony-spirit, freeing him to rebound through his carefully preserved phylactery. That gnome is back up and running now. Got out of the art business--now he's in the more traditionally soul-sucking field of education.

[Max_Killjoy]

As an aside, I really enjoy the "cosmology" of your setting. I think I've mentioned that before, but still. Interesting hints and notes of various real-world ideas about multipart / multilayer souls, that fit together as a nice alternate foundation for the quirks of D&D's magic, etc.

Spoiler: Digression/Tangent

Show

As a sort of contrast/compare, in one of the WIP worlds -- which sounds more similar than I realized as I type it out here -- what makes a living thing alive is a "spark" (to use your word) of light from a sort of universal "pool" of divine/bright/solar energy (the original deities were "star gods"), which is also where most magic comes from, but few mortals can directly tap that energy without a god or spirit's help, outside of a few narrow traditions specific to various Peoples. Aging and death are generally ascribed to some variation on the idea that the mortal flesh cannot forever contain that impossible brightness, such as it burns up the body slowly from the inside or all light is drawn back to the source so it won't stay contained or the like. Reclusive mystics and theosophers are believed to extend their lives as part of their mastery of their own bright soul and the flow of energy, and legend has it that the Sun People, who were wiped out with their empire at the end of the "bright age", were immortal via such mastery.

Bolstering this belief... there's another way to be immortal, or at least ageless: don't have a "spark" in the first place. There are beings -- dark spirits, certain monsters, the Twilight People -- who are given life by a dark mote of the infinite dark/cold/void/khaos that came before.

And yes, within the setting, there are those humans who consider anything "lives" without a spark to be an abomination, a walking talking breathing affront against the gods and nature.

Of note to the thread, real dragons, not just big mean lizards, but actual dragons, are also possessed of the dark mote, rather than the bright spark. They are creatures of dark flame and smouldering shadow.

[noob]

Operations that directly manipulate the spark of a living being (at least when performed by mortals) have the potential to invoke (even unintentionally) blood magic (ie abyssally-influenced magic) and thus begin the demonic transformation (in the caster, the subject, and/or anyone in the surrounding area). This is even more true as the duration or magnitude of that meddling increases. One of the catastrophies that resulted from such meddling was triggered because a group of amoral "scientist" types made dragonborn by forcibly carving off parts of draconic sparks (keeping wyrmling and young dragons in captivity and magically extracting parts of their souls) and implanting it in unborn human children.

Resurrection gets around this by invoking divine (or non-mortal in the case of reincarnate) intervention (who can do so without that risk). Most other spells that mortals can cast only affect the body or spirit, leaving the spark to adapt. It's a fine line, but one I'm fine with.



He'd simply change the rules of magic so those spells don't work that way any more. That's something directly in his divine portfolio and jurisdiction, so he has effectively plenary power[1] to write the implementation details, as long as wizardry (in some broader sense) still works. So he can't just shut off wizardry entirely, but he can disable "exploits" with a thought. He'd send agents (what kind would depend on the situation, but ranging from mortal acolytes/other wizards or imps[2] all the way up to demi-gods) for things where he'd have to tread more lightly due to overlaps with other gods or things that were outside his direct purview.

[1] except in one particular city that is cut off from extra-planar influence entirely due to an artifact that predates the gods. And there, part of that city works by trading anima for food--people sell parts of their souls (it regrows, but leaves you weak for a bit) and that gets compressed and turned into power and food. Most of the normal rules are in abeyance there, but access in or out of that city might be a bit difficult (ie fatal unless you're already quite powerful). They don't do visitors (being tucked off at the end of the world with hostile terrain around it and hidden under a "we don't exist" field for quite a while now. Didn't used to be that way, but...

[2] my devils are the gods' interface/errand boys for the mortal plane. Angels are too busy policing the Barrier to the Great Beyond and keeping order in the elemental planes (loosely...they only get involved if there's threats of rebellion that would leak outward and affect the universal order). Most angels don't do well with mortals either--"we had to destroy the village...and the 300 sq. miles around it...to save it" would be something they'd be fine with saying. Devils are not evil (inherently, some are). Most sapient inhabitants of the Astral plane are actually properly classified as devils/fiends.

How would the god of magic alter the liches to prevent them from being able to(provided they have enough self control) drain some anima from a soul to allow it to live longer?
Technically it is not a spell.

[PhoenixPhyre]

How would the god of magic alter the liches to prevent them from being able to(provided they have enough self control) drain some anima from a soul to allow it to live longer?
Technically it is not a spell.

Easiest way: make the process all or nothing. That would mess up some other things (voluntarily-donated sacrifice), but :shrug: Oops, I was confused. The "soul shenanigans" that I was referring to were the "true polymorph people into full-progression" shenanigans, not the lich ones. The lich ones aren't really counterable without breaking lots of things. But see below.

As another note, the amount of anima that can be pulled from a normal person without doing permanent damage isn't that much. About 2 days worth of growth. So the people who are drained wouldn't benefit much and the lich would have to drain lots of people to stay sane.

Figure a lich needs something like an adult's life-force (entirely) per month at least, more if he's active. Let's say 32 man years per month, 1 per day. That's 384 man-days off life needed per day for the lich. At 2 days per customer, he needs 192 customers per day unless he's willing to cause lasting damage. And the more he pulls from people, the more damage he causes. And there's no way to control what the damage does: lost memories, lost skills, lost motor function, etc. The lich is basically causing brain damage as if it's a stroke if it pulls too much. And all this for the gain of a couple days of life.

Edit: These numbers are for a commoner-class soul (~1 HD creature, because HD is a rough measure of "free" or "safe" anima capacity for most creatures). Repeat customers (the same person coming back every few days) would reduce the numbers slightly, but the best way would be to drain high-power creatures. Those for whom 2 days of life represents lots of anima. A wyrmling (medium size) dragon has ~3 times a commoner's stored anima (3HD); a level 20 PC-class person has ~20x. It's still only 2 days worth, because they regenerate/create anima faster, but it's more energy for the lich per draw, meaning fewer customers. Doesn't change that you're only getting 2 days back at best for the customer, at the risk of the lich crippling you.

[Max_Killjoy]

Read through the thread in more detail now that I've had time.

One thing I don't think I saw the answer to -- how does the horde provide energy? Is there a process by which these objects and events and ideas they're gathering end up invested with or channeling anima?

(You've probably addressed this in another thread in a post I missed, sorry about that.)

[PhoenixPhyre]

Read through the thread in more detail now that I've had time.

One thing I don't think I saw the answer to -- how does the horde provide energy? Is there a process by which these objects and events and ideas they're gathering end up invested with or channeling anima?

(You've probably addressed this in another thread in a post I missed, sorry about that.)

Anima is all around everyone, and is created when beings with sparks learn and grow. That's not enough (it's way too diffuse) for most normal functions and so most things need food. Dragons get around this by using their hoards to refine ambient anima. By investing these ideas or objects with part of themselves, they create a feedback loop which draws in and concentrates anima and channels it to the dragon. That is, the hoard itself doesn't provide the anima, but it acts as a sort of "anima collector" for the dragon. The bigger the hoard (more objects for the physical ones, more lived experiences/stored memories for the non-physical), the more the draw.

Or at least that's the magico-babble I've got for it right now. I like the idea of having them feed on their hoard, but have to refine the details.

[Max_Killjoy]

Anima is all around everyone, and is created when beings with sparks learn and grow. That's not enough (it's way too diffuse) for most normal functions and so most things need food. Dragons get around this by using their hoards to refine ambient anima. By investing these ideas or objects with part of themselves, they create a feedback loop which draws in and concentrates anima and channels it to the dragon. That is, the hoard itself doesn't provide the anima, but it acts as a sort of "anima collector" for the dragon. The bigger the hoard (more objects for the physical ones, more lived experiences/stored memories for the non-physical), the more the draw.

Or at least that's the magico-babble I've got for it right now. I like the idea of having them feed on their hoard, but have to refine the details.

I take it dragons, while long-lived, are still mortal because they too build up anima over time?

Also -- can any other being use a "horde" as an anima collector / refiner?

[PhoenixPhyre]

I take it dragons, while long-lived, are still mortal because they too build up anima over time?

Also -- can any other being use a "horde" as an anima collector / refiner?

Yup. Around 2k years at best. There's only one ageless being on the mortal plane, and it cheats by being a distributed conscious whose component bodies die and are replaced.

Other creatures using the hoard trick is possible. I mentioned a lich which did it for quite a while. Another analog of this is what giants do--they gather anima thorough meditating on rune-carved objects.

Variants of this trick explain how there can be these huge creatures that don't need similarly huge territories just to survive. After all, the food requirements of something dragon or giant sized would be immense, which precludes any kind of coexistence--they'd strip the landscape just to live. And would have to be solitary. So they have to have some other source of "food" energy.