Questionable Content 14: "I Deserve A Fancy Butt Emblem."

[Mordokai]

I've been rereading comics 3k-4k over weekend(*much* better use of my time than studying for the coming exams, ya know?) and I noticed how much I miss Hanners. I never quite liked Claire, Tai and Brun(Bubbles and Elliot are ok though) all that much, but when comparing them to Hannelore the contrast is even more stark.

This is obviously very much subjective opinion that serves no purpose, other than offloading it here to help me breath easier. You can now get back to your regularly planned comics.

[Kato]

Terry Pratchett had other things he wanted to try after his 20th Discworld book. Was he no longer interested in Discworld? Careful with that imputation.

"It's not a case of not wanting to. It's a case of wanting to and not doing it."
– Angua the werewolf, on the topic of tearing peoples' throats out.

So I guess what I'm saying, Faye, is that if anyone gives you crap about wanting a drink, you're allowed to bite 'em.

Did I miss something that caused this repeated referencing of Sir Pratchett? not that I mind, just surprised.


While today is cute, my guess is B would totally fail in that role and would be much more comfortable with being the commandeered one. Of course that's just a guess.

[Max_Killjoy]

I've been rereading comics 3k-4k over weekend(*much* better use of my time than studying for the coming exams, ya know?) and I noticed how much I miss Hanners. I never quite liked Claire, Tai and Brun(Bubbles and Elliot are ok though) all that much, but when comparing them to Hannelore the contrast is even more stark.

This is obviously very much subjective opinion that serves no purpose, other than offloading it here to help me breath easier. You can now get back to your regularly planned comics.

Claire isn't bad.

I miss Hannalore, too, though. She was my favorite character in the comic, really.

[Max_Killjoy]

"It's not a case of not wanting to. It's a case of wanting to and not doing it."
– Angua the werewolf, on the topic of tearing peoples' throats out.

"Of all evil I deem you capable: Therefore I want good from you. Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." -- Nietzsche.

[halfeye]

"Of all evil I deem you capable: Therefore I want good from you. Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." -- Nietzsche.

Is Nietzsche any good? I've heard some good soundbites (and that definitely was one, that I'd not heard before), but overall the tenor has seemed slightly off kilter.

[Willie the Duck]

Is Nietzsche any good? I've heard some good soundbites (and that definitely was one, that I'd not heard before), but overall the tenor has seemed slightly off kilter.

Good for what? Thoughtful read? Yes. Evocative, engaging writer? Well, still yes, but you've undoubtedly heard the best lines already. Compared to a lot of the 'great writers' you were told/required to read in your HS/college days (I don't know- Thoreau, Rand, Kafka , Huxley, Wharton, Hawthorne, Locke, Mills, Longfellow, etc. etc. etc.) he definitely falls into the 'yes, he has genuinely interesting things to say,' 'yes he's actually good,' and 'no, those that have fawned over him haven't made anything that is strictly better,' camps. That said, it's still a 19th century writer not writing specifically to entertain, so there is a lot of dry prose in the midst of the great lines. So it depends on for what you are looking.

[Traab]

Is Nietzsche any good? I've heard some good soundbites (and that definitely was one, that I'd not heard before), but overall the tenor has seemed slightly off kilter.

The man could rock a mustache manly enough for three dudes. Thats pretty much the extent of my knowledge. Truly he was an Übermensch.

[Keltest]

Ok, I admit it, I laughed a bit at the puns.

[Drascin]

Is Nietzsche any good? I've heard some good soundbites (and that definitely was one, that I'd not heard before), but overall the tenor has seemed slightly off kilter.

Much like Evangelion, a lot of what Nietzsche wrote is largely a man using a writing platform to deal with his own psychological issues. I find it's useful to keep that in mind.

[Shadow of the Sun]

The LoadingReadyRun guys summarized Nietzsche once as "Man has syphilis, writes books."

From what I've seen, it's really not that far off.

[Wraith]

Yes Tai, it was thoughtless of you to invite an alcoholic to a bar. But then again, it's also thoughtless of Faye to be rude, violent and abusive with her friends for years on end, to consistently fail to address her own well-being until after a crisis point has passed, and to then sullenly come along at her own choice, to complain relentlessly throughout about having to face the consequences of her own actions and making your special event all about herself and her own misery.

But no, you're definitely the bad guy here. You and your "being happy" and your "expecting your engagement to be all about you and Dora". How selfish of you, it's not as though Faye is a grown person capable of making informed decisions for herself or anything.

The LoadingReadyRun guys summarized Nietzsche once as "Man has syphilis, writes books."

It's always amused me that the same description also perfectly matches HP Lovecraft. Given the nihilistic outlook one and the insane pseudo-cosmic rambling of the other, one sometimes wonders if they were both discussing the same subject matter from different perspectives....

[Ibrinar]

Yes Wraith, people can get bothered by making a friend uncomfortable without it being a situation where they committed a great moral wrong or without checking whether it outweighs all the ****ty things the friend has done.

[Willie the Duck]

Yes Tai, it was thoughtless of you to invite an alcoholic to a bar.

Well, at least you got one thing right.

[Wraith]

I'm not saying that Faye's discomfort should be completely disregarded, or that she deserves being 'tortured' now for what she's done in the past. Addiction is an illness and it's not something that can just be switched off; I get all of that and support it.

I am saying that it feels like Jeph is making her into a martyr and that everyone needs to feel sorry for her despite how brave she was being when all she's done is complain, sulk and generally bring a cloud over Dora and Tai's festivities even before she left without so much as goodbye to the happy couple, and is now apparently completely over all that and can make sex jokes.

Just... What is being said in this strip? Faye is still the same selfish person making bad choices, but we should feel sorry for her because she's chosen to inconvenience herself? That recovering addicts should be treated with kiddie gloves at the expense of our own happiness? That she's really, really upset except when she's suddenly not and thus giving the impression of someone who doesn't actually feel guilt?

I'm not trying to be vitriolic, I'm just genuinely confused.

[Maryring]

Did somebody say Nietzche?

[Willie the Duck]

I'm not saying that Faye's discomfort should be completely disregarded, or that she deserves being 'tortured' now for what she's done in the past. Addiction is an illness and it's not something that can just be switched off; I get all of that and support it.

I'm not trying to be vitriolic, I'm just genuinely confused.

I'll take you at your word on that, but post #1301 there did not read as 'supportive, but confused.'

I am saying that it feels like Jeph is making her into a martyr and that everyone needs to feel sorry for her despite how brave she was being when all she's done is complain, sulk and generally bring a cloud over Dora and Tai's festivities even before she left without so much as goodbye to the happy couple, and is now apparently completely over all that and can make sex jokes.

The sex joke less than 10 minutes later is emotionally disjunctive. It doesn't really make sense except as a sitcom line. I don't actually watch sitcoms much these days, but it seems like something that would have happened in a Chuck Lorre sitcom to deliberately break the tension after things got too serious for a moment. In real life, this would not be something someone in Faye's position would likely say (I take that back--say? yes. Because IRL people try to deflect or break tension too. feel? No. Sex would not be a high priority for her at the moment and IRL Bubbles would be foolish for thinking that now was nookie time).

To the martyr point, I don't see it. Jeph is showing a flawed individual fumbling through life trying to make the best choices and only vaguely getting a marginal positive net trajectory. Same as he's always done for the Faye/Dora/Marten main character troika.

Regarding complaining, sulking, and leaving without saying goodbye, we certainly saw a bunch of inner focus on her issues, but did anyone else? Bubbles and Sven, certainly, but mostly what happened was she didn't spend much time with the main core of the celebration. And if we're complaining about her bringing a cloud over the festivities, why is it a bad thing that she stayed off to the side and left when she realized she couldn't handle the situation?

Just... What is being said in this strip? Faye is still the same selfish person making bad choices, but we should feel sorry for her because she's chosen to inconvenience herself? That recovering addicts should be treated with kiddie gloves at the expense of our own happiness? That she's really, really upset except when she's suddenly not and thus giving the impression of someone who doesn't actually feel guilt?

She chose to celebrate her friends' getting engaged, despite the fact that the venue placed her in a spot where she might have trouble not screwing up. That isn't 'inconveniencing' herself, that's 'subjecting' herself. Subjecting herself to fear. To risk. To the sensation that she's about to let everyone she cares about down in exactly the 'selfish person making bad choices' way you are currently complaining about. She's wanting/hoping/trying to do things right, and that's what's making you upset. I hope on reflection you recognize how incongruous that thought process seems.

Regarding treated newly recovering addicts with kid* gloves, maybe. Certainly with regards to taking them to bars. Whether it is at the expense of anyone else's happiness really depends on how indispensable they are to your life. No one has told the rest of them they can't go to bars. No one said they can't be around Faye. All that happens is that they must now realize that having an event at a bar, and expecting Faye to join them is a possibly infeasible situation.
*The term is kid, as in lambgoatskin.

[Max_Killjoy]

Much like Evangelion, a lot of what Nietzsche wrote is largely a man using a writing platform to deal with his own psychological issues. I find it's useful to keep that in mind.

See also, Carl Jung.

And orders of magnitude beyond the rest... Freud.

[Kato]

I'm not trying to be vitriolic, I'm just genuinely confused.

Not everybody hates Faye and you can be friends with someone even if they have flaws. And taking into account how difficult some situations are for some people is part of social norms, especially among friends.
A gift basket might be a humorous exaggeration or Jeph's feeling how he wants to be treated if he gets insensitively invited to a bar.
I don't quite see how it's unreasonable or sacrificing your happiness to take your friends' feelings into account when making plans.

[Mordokai]

Claire isn't bad.

I miss Hannalore, too, though. She was my favorite character in the comic, really.

She isn't bad, agree. But she isn't good either. Once again, personal opinion and all that jazz

Other than that, so glad to meet another Hannelore fan *shakes hand*

[Hackman]

Did somebody say Nietzche?

Faye should just exercise her Radical Freedom to never drink again.

[geoduck]

Much like Evangelion, a lot of what Nietzsche wrote is largely a man using a writing platform to deal with his own psychological issues. I find it's useful to keep that in mind.

"You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound." -Reginald Jeeves

[Vinyadan]

This page with Sven seems to be the only one pointing in a direction. For the rest, the whole engagement thing didn't turn into any ongoing narrative: "Claire does preparations", "Faye is still a recovering alcoholic", "Marten and Claire are still together". Sven is the only character that appears to be changing from the last time we saw him.

[Wraith]

I'll take you at your word on that, but post #1301 there did not read as 'supportive, but confused.'

I appreciate your patience. I was going for sarcasm, perhaps I was too dry and it didn't translate well across interwebs.

To the martyr point, I don't see it. Jeph is showing a flawed individual fumbling through life trying to make the best choices and only vaguely getting a marginal positive net trajectory. Same as he's always done for the Faye/Dora/Marten main character troika.

More so, I was referring to Tai describing her suggestion as "sh***y" and Dora thinking of sending Faye a gift to apologise. Maybe that was meant to be a joke or even a bit of sarcasm on Dora's part, but to me it seemed like a big overreaction.
Faye was invited out, she didn't like it, she went home; fair enough. No one "owes" each other anything in that situation, except maybe a quick text to apologise for being a little bit thoughtless?

...why is it a bad thing that she stayed off to the side and left when she realized she couldn't handle the situation?

Again it's not that she did it, more so how it was done. Leaving without at least saying goodbye, if not a quick explanation that it's too much pressure and she'd rather not risk a public slip, is very rude and especially so at a celebration. It could, in other circles, have been interpreted as a snub had Marten not came over and explained the situation, and I find it slightly weird that Dora and Tai's tiny oversight can be met with Faye's "bad manners" and everyone is fine with that, y'know?

To the sensation that she's about to let everyone she cares about down in exactly the 'selfish person making bad choices' way you are currently complaining about. She's wanting/hoping/trying to do things right, and that's what's making you upset. I hope on reflection you recognize how incongruous that thought process seems.

I do appreciate that, but thank you for clarifying it. I still believe that it is somewhat inconsistent with her previous behaviour, where drunk people came back to the apartment with Marten and had a small party also with booze and she was completely okay with it. I'm NOT saying that recovering addicts don't have peaks and troughs where some days are better or worse than others because they absolutely do; I just wish there was some indication of Faye going through that rather than being okay with one and suddenly not with the other, it would make the story flow better and the swings seem less jarring.

*The term is kid, as in lambgoatskin.

Fair enough. I first heard it as a boxing term - kids' gloves only weigh 6oz, compared to adults 10-14oz, so it's 'nicer' to be hit with them

A gift basket might be a humorous exaggeration or Jeph's feeling how he wants to be treated if he gets insensitively invited to a bar..

See, I was wondering if I was being unnecessarily cynical - Jeph, recovering alcoholic, writing a comic about how people should always be really nice to recovering alcoholics regardless of their previous actions and offences? I mean no ill-will to the guy in any way, so I accept that I should reconsider that idea. Possible it's that which so irked me in the beginning, for unjust reason.

This page with Sven seems to be the only one pointing in a direction. For the rest, the whole engagement thing didn't turn into any ongoing narrative: "Claire does preparations", "Faye is still a recovering alcoholic", "Marten and Claire are still together". Sven is the only character that appears to be changing from the last time we saw him.

I like May in this scene. Though her humour is juvenile, her disinterest/disregard for the petty dramas of the rest of the cast always amuses me.

[Rodin]

Again it's not that she did it, more so how it was done. Leaving without at least saying goodbye, if not a quick explanation that it's too much pressure and she'd rather not risk a public slip, is very rude and especially so at a celebration. It could, in other circles, have been interpreted as a snub had Marten not came over and explained the situation, and I find it slightly weird that Dora and Tai's tiny oversight can be met with Faye's "bad manners" and everyone is fine with that, y'know?

Once again I wonder if we are reading the same comic. Faye comes up to the group of all 4 of them (Dora, Tai, Marten, and Claire) and says she's taking off. Dora thanks her for coming out, and Faye congratulates her. She says nothing about feeling bad about being at a bar because she doesn't want to worry Dora and Tai at their celebration, and she leaves. Other than leaving a bit early, there's nothing whatsoever that's rude about that. Dora even notes that Faye hung around for a reasonable amount of time under the circumstances, so she apparently didn't even leave particularly early. Dora and Tai suddenly realize (or Marten explains off-panel) that they invited a vegan to a BBQ without even thinking about it, and then overreact feeling guilty about it. Marten makes it clear that Faye wasn't offended, came to the bar of her own free will, case closed, don't even apologize because that's making a bigger deal of it than Faye would want.

I'm not sure what else you want from the characters in this situation. Faye was as considerate of others as she could possibly be under the circumstances - she didn't ask for a change of venue, she came out and celebrated while keeping her own problems under her hat, and she congratulated the happy couple before leaving. Dora and Tai briefly feel guilty when they realize, Marten quickly tells them not to worry about it and they relax.

[Wraith]

Once again I wonder if we are reading the same comic. Faye comes up to the group of all 4 of them (Dora, Tai, Marten, and Claire) and says she's taking off.

Faye tells Marten and Claire that she's leaving, while they are standing at the bar. She then talks to Dora and Tai about Sven while they are sat in front of the window.

Faye doesn't, on panel, tell Dora that she's leaving - just that she spoke to Sven and it was weird. It doesn't seem as though Dora/Tai are anywhere near Marten/Claire - there's room between then for Sven, Bubbles, more window and then the bookcase before the bar comes in to view so they're hardly within her intimate space - and it looked to me like Faye was just making small talk as she walked past them, hence why Tai and Dora only look surprised about what happened when Marten comes over and tells them explicitly what Faye said.

Dora said "Thanks for coming out". That's not obviously "goodbye". Faye said, essentially, "No worries." That is also not "goodbye".

I took it for granted that Faye wanted to leave without talking to anyone about it - hence why Bubbles would cause a distraction so that she could slip out unnoticed. Okay, she didn't let off the flare, but why wouldn't I assume that it's otherwise what she said she wanted to do - leave and not make a scene out of it?

I don't hate Faye's character, despite what it may sound like, but I do think of her primary traits as being selfish and prone to disregarding the feelings of others. In the context that I've described above, her walking past Dora and out the door without explaining herself is not at all outlandish.

[Ibrinar]

Seriously? When you see a character saying goodbye to someone in the first panel and then it skips to talking with other people who then say a phrase often used when saying good bye it is safe to assume that she told them she was leaving. (Unless the author is trying to trick the reader with misleading cues but probably not the case here.)

[Thufir]

Faye doesn't, on panel, tell Dora that she's leaving - just that she spoke to Sven and it was weird.

*snip*

Dora said "Thanks for coming out". That's not obviously "goodbye". Faye said, essentially, "No worries." That is also not "goodbye".

The obvious interpretation of Dora asking if Sven did anything stupid is her thinking he may be the reason Faye is leaving. "Thanks for coming out" is in this context obviously a "goodbye" equivalent. It's something you would say as a greeting or a farewell, but not out of the blue in the middle of the festivities.

[Wraith]

Seriously? When you see a character saying goodbye to someone in the first panel and then it skips to talking with other people who then say a phrase often used when saying good bye it is safe to assume that she told them she was leaving. (Unless the author is trying to trick the reader with misleading cues but probably not the case here.)

A safe one, but not an automatic one. Faye said something to Marten and Claire, it's not guaranteed to be the same thing - if anything - she said to someone else on the other side of the room.

I freely admit that I have probably misread the situation, the above was just explaining how I did so. TL:DR - I'm too cynical for my own good.

It's something you would say as a greeting or a farewell, but not out of the blue in the middle of the festivities.

If it were obvious then you wouldn't have had to explain it to me. Case in point - I have, and have had said to me, words similar to "thanks for coming" in the middle of small talk. It's not guaranteed to be ONLY a greeting or farewell, it can also be used as a nicety to prompt an elaboration; "Thanks for coming!" "It's no problem, we would only be at home watching TV anyway..." "Oh? Anything good?" etc etc. Maybe it's a colloquial thing.

[Max_Killjoy]

In the first two panels, Sven looks like a 12 year old girl.

[Agi Hammerthief]

In the first two panels, Sven looks like a 12 year old girl.

and thus the question he’s asking in the lase panel :o)