OOTS #1152 - The Discussion Thread

[Kish]

So I contended that "the book is far from over" and someone tells me essentially "no you're wrong" solely because 200 strips and the alleged climax have already passed -- how exactly does that not amount to a statement that the book is basically over?

In that it's not a "far from over" vs. "over" dichotomy. Like I already said.

I gather that the people you're arguing with are saying the exact opposite of whatever you say in a display of demented contrarianism. Y'might want to engage, instead, with the people who are making posts on this forum which your replies are appearing addressed to.

[Yirggzmb]

I'm another who feels that Durkon defeating the vampire is probably the climax of the story, but I also strongly feel like we'll get a chance to see Durkon put to use what he learned while trapped in his own head. Whether that's with the Exarch, or more likely Hilgya, but either way he'll have that chance before the story is totally over.

[Ruck]

In that it's not a "far from over" vs. "over" dichotomy. Like I already said.

And, just to be clear, we have concrete terms for what TheNecronomicon means by "far from over":

I'm easily seeing another couple of years IRL until the book ends.

By my estimates, that means around 70-100 strips. I do not think there are 70-100 strips remaining in the book. Whether or not TheNecronomicon meant to argue that there is literally no middle ground between "0 strips remaining" and "70-100 strips remaining" remains to be seen.

[GreatWyrmGold]

The most front-and-centre conflict? Sure. But Durkon vs. Hilgya is still simmering -- while the Forces of Hel vs. The World has not yet been resolved, and the stakes in that are pretty clearly higher than just Durkon vs. Lurkon. Seems illogical from a narrative standpoint that that remaining fight with world-ending implications should go off without a hitch when the first, more personal fight nearly killed the Order.

Also, the conflict of Durkon vs. Durkon. Durkon defeating Durkon* was a good start, but it amounts to little more than Durkon admitting that he has stuff to work through and getting some of the tools he needs to start working through it.

Well, since we're on a big math kick right now...

By the transitive property, according to you, "the climax is over" = "nothing really left in the book." Which, I have to note again, sounds like you don't read past the climax.

I'm not saying 2+2=5, you're just bad at math. Metaphorically.

Even if we accept the premise that Necrocomicon agrees with the people he's quoting, you're still making the assumption that "There's nothing much left in the book" leads naturally to "I didn't read past the climax". Which is kinda ridiculous, as the two have no elements in common save the end of the story. Sure, it's possible that they stop reading at the climax and didn't see anything after that, but it's also possible that they read past the climax and come to the conclusion that nothing much happens after that.
Which is true. The denouement of the story is important for tying up the plot, but you don't see anything important happen. Character growth happens throughout the storyline, reaches some kind of apotheosis in the climax, and then is demonstrated in the denouement; that's it.

No, I'm not agreeing that. Are you reading anything I write?

I feel your pain, buddy. I hate reading someone's response and getting an overwhelming urge to just quote my last post at them.

To me this is like watching The Godfather and saying the baptism montage wasn't the climax because Michael dealing with Carlo selling out Sonny could be even bigger.

I can't say I've seen The Godfather, but—and correct me if I'm wrong on this one—I assume that scenes past the baptism montage have been produced, yes? You're comparing an analysis of a finished work to one of an unfinished work, and making the inherent assumption that Durkon*'s death is the "baptism montage" of this story and not a scene before the baptism.
I'm going to change the analogy to one about a movie I have seen, okay?

Spoiler: Infinity War spoilers

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Let's say you compared Durkon*'s defeat to the fight with Thanos on Earth, and said it wasn't the climax of that movie because cleaning up his army could be bigger. But how do you know Durkon*'s defeat wasn't more akin to the fight with Thanos on Titan? You're presuming the conclusion—you know Durkon*'s defeat was the climax, so it's ridiculous to think anything could be bigger and more impactful.

Or to take a more OotS example: Miko falling was the ultimate defeat of a long-standing antagonist, but it wasn't the climax of War and XPs. It was a climactic moment in its own sub-arc, but that doesn't make it the climax. How do you know Durkon*'s defeat was the climax?

And, just to be clear, we have concrete terms for what TheNecronomicon means by "far from over":

By my estimates, that means around 70-100 strips. I do not think there are 70-100 strips remaining in the book. Whether or not TheNecronomicon meant to argue that there is literally no middle ground between "0 strips remaining" and "70-100 strips remaining" remains to be seen.

Or maybe he thinks that the people arguing that the book is basically over are close enough to one extreme that they aren't meaningfully in the middle ground?

[TheNecrocomicon]

At this point, I have no idea how you define the literary term "climax," so maybe clearing that up would help. That said, it seems a little bit clearer that your argument that the climax hasn't happened yet amounts to "I feel like it could still happen."

To me this is like watching The Godfather and saying the baptism montage wasn't the climax because Michael dealing with Carlo selling out Sonny could be even bigger.

I'd define it as the point of highest tension or drama within a work, the identity of which isn't conclusive until the narrative can be reviewed in its entirety. And it doesn't have to coincide with the main villain(s) being defeated or offed.

Spoiler: Examples

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To use an example of these not coinciding, Saruman might have been the main arc villain of The Two Towers, but he had no active involvement with that book/movie's climactic moment, which was the Battle of Helm's Deep. Hell, in the books, he survives right up until after the Ring is destroyed and keeps causing havoc until the hobbits deal with him in the overall denouement of the whole trilogy.

Or, to use an example on the TV side, DS9's climactic finale moment might have been the Battle of Cardassia, but that didn't actually wrap everything up, as Sisko still ended up going down to Bajor for one last confrontation with Dukat which was more personal (though still apocalyptic) in scale.

Or that order can be flipped, like The Hobbit that I cited earlier, where the main villain whose hoard was the reason for the whole quest gets defeated and slain in a tense but ultimately secondary fight, well before the actual climactic battle and the substantial denouement thereafter.

So far in this book of OotS, there have definitely been quasi-climactic moments, like Haley defeating Crystal once and for all, Roy and Lurkon's fight at the Godsmoot, the mortal peril from the frost giants in Passage Pass when it seemed like the Mechane might get destroyed, and now Durkon overwhelming Lurkon with Belkar providing the finishing blow. Each one has topped the last in terms of tension, and sure, the latter one is so far the best candidate for what could be the defining climactic moment of this book. But that doesn't rule out something more intense possibly happening with the parts of Hel's earthly forces that are still out there.

And even if the destruction of Lurkon really turns out to be this book's climactic moment, that doesn't rule out aftershocks and lesser confrontations until the book truly ends. But it seems to me that with the lack of regard Hel has for her pawns, her plan is not truly over with the loss of a couple of vampires (powerful as they were) and a handful of spawn. The Godsmoot should really have taught us all that Hel's backup plans have backup plans which have backup plans -- incidentally a big foil for Xykon who just bulls in there and does whatever he feels like without much of a plan at all. AND we still have Hilgya who is a completely self-interested wild card.

Seems like plenty of material to me that could still amount to a tense and perilous climax between now and whenever we truly get a denouement, sequel hook and end to the book.

By my estimates, that means around 70-100 strips. I do not think there are 70-100 strips remaining in the book. Whether or not TheNecronomicon meant to argue that there is literally no middle ground between "0 strips remaining" and "70-100 strips remaining" remains to be seen.

I probably should have said "one to two years IRL". As I've retread repeatedly, based on the elements left unresolved so far, I still think there's a sizable and quite possibly climactic clash still left to close out the book's narrative arc. That takes a substantial number of strips. If this book turns out to be as long as BRitF in terms of strips released, then that's at least 70 remaining, which falls into that range, hence my initial guess of "a couple of years". If it's shorter and more like 35 to 50 strips, then that's closer to one year.

Anyways, I'd rather not end up treading further on the territory of criticizing the release schedule.

Also, the conflict of Durkon vs. Durkon. Durkon defeating Durkon* was a good start, but it amounts to little more than Durkon admitting that he has stuff to work through and getting some of the tools he needs to start working through it.
...
Even if we accept the premise that Necrocomicon agrees with the people he's quoting, you're still making the assumption that "There's nothing much left in the book" leads naturally to "I didn't read past the climax". Which is kinda ridiculous, as the two have no elements in common save the end of the story. Sure, it's possible that they stop reading at the climax and didn't see anything after that, but it's also possible that they read past the climax and come to the conclusion that nothing much happens after that.
Which is true. The denouement of the story is important for tying up the plot, but you don't see anything important happen. Character growth happens throughout the storyline, reaches some kind of apotheosis in the climax, and then is demonstrated in the denouement; that's it.
...
I feel your pain, buddy. I hate reading someone's response and getting an overwhelming urge to just quote my last post at them.
...
Or maybe he thinks that the people arguing that the book is basically over are close enough to one extreme that they aren't meaningfully in the middle ground?

Durkon vs. himself might linger, if only because he's still going to need impetus for further character development through the final book still to come.

Also, thanks, yes. Got to admit it's inordinately frustrating feeling like there's a pile-on just because I've come to hold a different opinion than the people who have always been here. I shouldn't take it this personally, TBH.

[Kish]

I will be mildly surprised if the sixth book isn't available for purchase by Christmas.

That's as much of a prediction as I'll make.

Though I will say that I think the book's climax was Durkon defeating Greg.

Interesting reading, I think, though I currently am unwilling to go to the effort of tracking down which strip was the current one when he said he was approximately one-third of the way through the current book. Edited: After I posted that, I thought of a way to make it much quicker; it was #1016. 947 to 1016 is 69 strips. Three times that is 207 strips.

[Fyraltari]

Ah, so Book 6 should be over in approximatively 2 strips.

[TheNecrocomicon]

I will be mildly surprised if the sixth book isn't available for purchase by Christmas.

That's as much of a prediction as I'll make.

Though I will say that I think the book's climax was Durkon defeating Greg.

Interesting reading, I think, though I currently am unwilling to go to the effort of tracking down which strip was the current one when he said he was approximately one-third of the way through the current book.

Someone early in that thread says something to the effect of "twenty strips since the vote was called", and the High Priest of Odin called the vote in #997, so my estimate that the person who started the thread made their complaint at about #1017. That would be about 70 strips after the start of the book (#947) -- and also incidentally right about when I discovered OotS and started actually reading it.

Assuming the Giant's words about being one-third of the way through the book are still accurate, that would imply about 140 more strips until the book is well and conclusively done, or ... a few strips after where we are now. Funny, that. Or at least, so it was planned at the time.

But he also said that anyone waiting for more action on the Xykon and Team Evil front would have a rough "next year or two". Unless he dramatically moved up the arc where we check in on Team Evil (which was #1036 to #1042) to placate people, then he probably meant the start of the final book. It's now over three years since he wrote that post addressing the complaint. At the risk of criticizing the schedule, obviously something changed. I can easily chalk that up to the story expanding between then and now.

EDIT: ninja'd.

[Peelee]

...Do you not see how Hilgya ties into Durkon's story, or did you just not think to consider it?

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

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If, in Start of Darkness, the paladin who killed Redcloak's sister suddenly reappeared just before Xykon's fight with Dorukan, would you say that you do not see how she ties into Redcloak's story, or just did not think to consider it, if one were to say that her interactions with Redcloak would not be the climax? Of course not, because that would be ridiculous. She appeared at the start, had a very impactful but brief effect on Redcloak, and Redcloak would have a very strong connection to her. But she was gone for most of the book, had zero character development, had zero interactions on the story, Zero effect on Redcloak, and appeared at the 11th hour. It would be absolutely ridiculous to expect the paladin to then be the climax of Redcloak's struggles. It would be the very definition of denouement. Surely you would agree this is directly analogous to Hilgya?

Even if we accept the premise that Necrocomicon agrees with the people he's quoting, you're still making the assumption that "There's nothing much left in the book" leads naturally to "I didn't read past the climax".

That would be a solid argument, except for when Necronomicon explicitly said as much:

Who said the current book is over?

e.g.:

The climax of the story has already happened. At this point, I think theyre pretty safe.

Odd statement given the climax has already happened and we're over 200 strips into the current book.

Denouement

Do you keep reading after the book is over? That would be very impressive, since there's no book left. That was Kish's entire point. Necronomicon very directly gives examples of the climax already happening and the denouement as the book being over. Not nearly over, over. Kish even addressed it:

(It's not a "far from over" vs. "over" dichotomy--did you mean to say "not over" when you said "far from over"?)

So no. If Necronomicon chooses a hill to die on, I'm not going to just assume they meant a different hill because they picked a bad one.

[Ruck]

I probably should have said "one to two years IRL". As I've retread repeatedly, based on the elements left unresolved so far, I still think there's a sizable and quite possibly climactic clash still left to close out the book's narrative arc. That takes a substantial number of strips. If this book turns out to be as long as BRitF in terms of strips released, then that's at least 70 remaining, which falls into that range, hence my initial guess of "a couple of years". If it's shorter and more like 35 to 50 strips, then that's closer to one year.

More reasonable-- I don't think it will be that long, but then, I thought the same thing about 20 strips ago, and we spent all that time in the afterlife, which threw me off-- but I do not see any reason the remaining events must necessarily be more than denouement.

Also, thanks, yes. Got to admit it's inordinately frustrating feeling like there's a pile-on just because I've come to hold a different opinion than the people who have always been here. I shouldn't take it this personally, TBH.

There's a "pile-on" because you keep misrepresenting what people say and have been rather rude and insulting about it a few times, too.

I can't say I've seen The Godfather, but—and correct me if I'm wrong on this one—I assume that scenes past the baptism montage have been produced, yes? You're comparing an analysis of a finished work to one of an unfinished work, and making the inherent assumption that Durkon*'s death is the "baptism montage" of this story and not a scene before the baptism.

Well, if you haven't seen it, it's tough to elaborate further in a meaningful way. I haven't seen Infinity War, so let's go with the example we're both familiar with:

Or to take a more OotS example: Miko falling was the ultimate defeat of a long-standing antagonist, but it wasn't the climax of War and XPs. It was a climactic moment in its own sub-arc, but that doesn't make it the climax. How do you know Durkon*'s defeat was the climax?

Miko was the antagonist of the last book, and by the time we got to her fall in War and XPs, it was already clear that Xykon was planning to march on Azure City with an army. That was, in fact, the setup at the end of No Cure for the Paladin Blues for War and XPs-- much like the setup for this book was the reveal at the end of Blood Runs in the Family that the vampire spirit was a totally separate entity from Durkon and was holding Durkon's soul captive.

As far as your question: I've made my case over and over why I think the climax has occurred. I mean, if we're talking metaphysical knowability, such a thing is impossible.

Or maybe he thinks that the people arguing that the book is basically over are close enough to one extreme that they aren't meaningfully in the middle ground?

No one is arguing that. It really gets tiring to repeat that. (ref. Peelee's post for more.)

[TheNecrocomicon]

Do you keep reading after the book is over? That would be very impressive, since there's no book left. That was Kish's entire point. Necronomicon very directly gives examples of the climax already happening and the denouement as the book being over. Not nearly over, over. Kish even addressed it:
So no. If Necronomicon chooses a hill to die on, I'm not going to just assume they meant a different hill because they picked a bad one.

Sure, mind-reader, go ahead and tell me what I supposedly believe.

Apparently I wasn't explicit enough. The denouement is the last phase of the book, before it ends. I'm not so monumentally stupid as to stop reading a work as soon as the climax hits. All parts of it are important (to varying degrees).

The people claiming we are in or nearly through said denouement are saying the book is essentially over. I disagree.

I don't personally think we are in the denouement because it feels to me like there is still a true climax yet to come before we really hit the denouement -- a climax that will involve the multiple elements that are still unresolved, like the remaining forces of Hel still working on her plan to destroy the world, the still deadlocked conflict between Durkon and Hilgya, and the still open question of how the gods will react if/when Hel's plans are thwarted. Yes, Lurkon the vampire has been destroyed. That does not prove in any conclusive way that the true climax has come and gone.

Like someone said upthread, Hel has gone "all in" on this plan and will keep trying to execute it with everything she has available to influence the world. Those resources are not yet expended and the dwarven council is still manifestly in peril, and thus by extension the world is still in imminent peril of destruction. The stakes are still extremely high until that problem is solved. Then we'll truly get a denouement and a hook towards the next book.

[Ironsmith]

Half-joking about this, but what're the odds that Durkin v Hylgia will end with Durkon taking a hit for her?

[Ruck]

The people claiming we are in or nearly through said denouement are saying the book is essentially over. I disagree.

Stop changing the meaning of what people say to something that is easier for you to argue against.

I don't personally think we are in the denouement because it feels to me like there is still a true climax yet to come before we really hit the denouement -- a climax that will involve the multiple elements that are still unresolved, like the remaining forces of Hel still working on her plan to destroy the world, the still deadlocked conflict between Durkon and Hilgya, and the still open question of how the gods will react if/when Hel's plans are thwarted. Yes, Lurkon the vampire has been destroyed. That does not prove in any conclusive way that the true climax has come and gone.

Just reading the description you gave here, I do not think any of those conflicts could possibly be the climax because none of them are as emotionally resonant to the characters' journeys as Durkon overcoming his vampire self was-- and also, none of those characters are the main villain of this book. (You could try to argue that Hel is the main villain rather than Vampire!Durkon, but I wouldn't buy it.)

[zimmerwald1915]

The Council of Clans doesn't matter. Saving the world doesn't matter. What matters is the journies of the characters. Very little of that can seemingly be wrung put of protecting some politicians from some vampires. What can be wrung out of the remaining plot threads has to do with Sigdi and Hilgya, and they're both near to hand.

[Peelee]

Sure, mind-reader, go ahead and tell me what I supposedly believe.

If you say the movie's over, I'm going to assume the credits are rolling. If you say the play is over, I'm going to assume the curtain fell. If you say the book is over, I'm going to assume you've read the last page. Kish even directly tried to give you an out, and you refused to take it.

You dug this hole yourself, dude.

[zimmerwald1915]

If you say the movie's over, I'm going to assume the credits are rolling.

Movie's not over til the IATSE, SAG-AFTRA, and MPAA logos have scrolled past

[Ruck]

The Council of Clans doesn't matter. Saving the world doesn't matter. What matters is the journies of the characters. Very little of that can seemingly be wrung put of protecting some politicians from some vampires. What can be wrung out of the remaining plot threads has to do with Sigdi and Hilgya, and they're both near to hand.

Yes, precisely. Rich has been rather explicit on this being how he conceives of the story. Those elements TheNecronomicon thinks will lead to another climax are what I would call "loose ends", hence why they are tied up in the denouement.

Movie's not over til the IATSE, SAG-AFTRA, and MPAA logos have scrolled past

We appreciate your support of our unions. I actually only had one TV job and it wasn't union. I was trying to work my way into a union job, but then I got the offer to work where I am now, which I greatly enjoy.

[zimmerwald1915]

We appreciate your support of our unions. I actually only had one TV job and it wasn't union. I was trying to work my way into a union job, but then I got the offer to work where I am now, which I greatly enjoy.

S'the least I can do for my brothers and sisters.

(If the union isn't where you are, you can change that, if you want )

[Peelee]

Movie's not over til the IATSE, SAG-AFTRA, and MPAA logos have scrolled past

True, but I find being overly generous to the opposing party while keeping the point intact does nothing but help my argument.

(If the union isn't where you are, you can change that, if you want )

Have I mentioned lately how much I like you? It's a lot.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Stop changing the meaning of what people say to something that is easier for you to argue against.

Just reading the description you gave here, I do not think any of those conflicts could possibly be the climax because none of them are as emotionally resonant to the characters' journeys as Durkon overcoming his vampire self was-- and also, none of those characters are the main villain of this book. (You could try to argue that Hel is the main villain rather than Vampire!Durkon, but I wouldn't buy it.)

So I took people saying "denouement" to mean "the book is almost over and nothing else is coming next". Like I've said, I disagree that that's here yet.

There are still personal things left, at least for Durkon, since he still has a son to safeguard, "death and destruction" he (as a vampire) brought to his homeland still to stop and counteract, and a goddess of death who used him and his deceased body as a pawn to try and destroy the world. Seems to me his sense of duty is not going to let him rest until he's fully thwarted Hel's plan that he unwittingly enabled, even if he wasn't personally responsible for what the vampire did using his body and his powers.

Hel is a greater scope villain and definitely far more powerful as a being than Lurkon was as her servant, even if she isn't the nominal "main" villain of the book. I highly doubt there will be any direct confrontation with her, merely ending her current threat to the world, which involves ending her agents who are still in position to further her agenda. Those might well be more numerous and more powerful still than we would assume (if that twist about Lurkon researching the fast-vampirification spell is any indication). If anyone confronts Hel directly, it'd be Loki and Thor and the other Northern Gods.

If you say the movie's over, I'm going to assume the credits are rolling. If you say the play is over, I'm going to assume the curtain fell. If you say the book is over, I'm going to assume you've read the last page. Kish even directly tried to give you an out, and you refused to take it.

You dug this hole yourself, dude.

That's because I do believe that we're still relatively far from being done this book. The supposed "out" of backing that down to merely "not over" is not really an "out" if it contradicts what I'm holding about what's left of the narrative arc of the book.

You've somehow flipped to saying that I believe "the play is over", "the credits are rolling", etc., which is a complete 180 from what I actually believe. I was indicating people who seemed to me to be saying that we're done with this book in any meaningful way.

[Peelee]

SThat's because I do believe that we're still relatively far from being done this book. The supposed "out" of backing that down to merely "not over" is not really an "out" if it contradicts what I'm holding about what's left of the narrative arc of the book.

No, it was "you do realize there is something between "relatively far from being done" and "over."

You've somehow flipped to saying that I believe "the play is over", "the credits are rolling", etc., which is a complete 180 from what I actually believe. I was indicating people who seemed to me to be saying that we're done with this book in any meaningful way.

Let me put it this way.

Nobody has said that we're done with this book in any meaningful way. Nobody has even suggested that. If that's how you are reading what everyone is saying, you are reading them wrong.

Better?

[Ruck]

S'the least I can do for my brothers and sisters.

(If the union isn't where you are, you can change that, if you want )

Heh, indeed. My new job isn't in production at all, and I admittedly know very little about how to go about that. That said, it's also a bit cowardly of me to be like "I just started here and don't want to rock the boat," but the truth is my new work environment is so very good I'm not sure how I could improve it. (Maybe that will change when I start finding out just what everyone makes and how much, if any, part of profit-sharing we get.)

So I took people saying "denouement" to mean "the book is almost over and nothing else is coming next".

I just googled it, but the first result for a definition:

the final part of a play, movie, or narrative in which the strands of the plot are drawn together and matters are explained or resolved.

"Denouement" is a formal literary term. It doesn't just mean "near the end." It means the above. The people you are arguing with believe the climax (also a formal term) of book 6 was Durkon defeating the Vampire, and that climax has passed. Now we are in the denouement, where the various remaining loose ends are tied up and resolved-- and as this is a series of books, where some setup for the next book will take place.

[Peelee]

Ye Olde Googlee.

This warms the cockles of my heart.

[TheNecrocomicon]

No, it was "you do realize there is something between "relatively far from being done" and "over."

Sure, there certainly is. Just seems to me that the amount of elements still to resolve, and that they could amount to a climax beyond what we've seen in the book so far, indicates at least a fair while before it is done to actually tie up the problems that have been introduced pertaining to this book, not the short or exceedingly short time people are claiming as being gospel.

Nobody has said that we're done with this book in any meaningful way. Nobody has even suggested that. If that's how you are reading what everyone is saying, you are reading them wrong.

"Denouement" is a formal literary term. It doesn't just mean "near the end." It means the above. The people you are arguing with believe the climax (also a formal term) of book 6 was Durkon defeating the Vampire, and that climax has passed. Now we are in the denouement, where the various remaining loose ends are tied up and resolved-- and as this is a series of books, where some setup for the next book will take place.

Fair enough. "Close to the end", "final part of the narrative" -- that's still not what my instincts are telling me given what's happened and the problems that have been introduced so far in this book. Call me paranoid, but I sense shenanigans still to come before the book is over.

One problem has been solved, that of Lurkon the vampire himself. Thwarting Hel's plan, saving the dwarven realm and bringing the world back from the brink of destruction still hasn't conclusively happened. The safe well-being of Kudzu and some actual understanding between Hilgya and Durkon as parents still hasn't been resolved. All of that still being outstanding doesn't indicate "denouement" yet to me.

Plus, if this is the book focusing on Durkon, then he's scarcely had any chance yet to truly shine as a lead protagonist with his autonomy intact, resurrected and freed from his vampiric imprisonment and subsequent sojourn in the afterlife. Now he's back in the material world and can do that.

The Council of Clans doesn't matter. Saving the world doesn't matter. What matters is the journies of the characters. Very little of that can seemingly be wrung put of protecting some politicians from some vampires. What can be wrung out of the remaining plot threads has to do with Sigdi and Hilgya, and they're both near to hand.

"The plot of OOTS is saving the world, and the world needs saving in this way right now." (end of 2nd paragraph)

[Peelee]

Fair enough. "Close to the end", "final part of the narrative" -- that's still not what my instincts are telling me given what's happened and the problems that have been introduced so far in this book. Call me paranoid, but I sense shenanigans still to come before the book is over.

That's understandable, and I agree with you to a point. I do think there are still going to be some events that pop up, but to a lesser extent. Also, that last post I was trying to be blunt to make the point, and was starting to get frustrated. And now it reads as pretty rude. I apologize for that.

[Ruck]

Fair enough. "Close to the end", "final part of the narrative" -- that's still not what my instincts are telling me given what's happened and the problems that have been introduced so far in this book. Call me paranoid, but I sense shenanigans still to come before the book is over.

One problem has been solved, that of Lurkon the vampire himself. Thwarting Hel's plan, saving the dwarven realm and bringing the world back from the brink of destruction still hasn't conclusively happened. The safe well-being of Kudzu and some actual understanding between Hilgya and Durkon as parents still hasn't been resolved. All of that still being outstanding doesn't indicate "denouement" yet to me.

Plus, if this is the book focusing on Durkon, then he's scarcely had any chance yet to truly shine as a lead protagonist with his autonomy intact, resurrected and freed from his vampiric imprisonment and subsequent sojourn in the afterlife. Now he's back in the material world and can do that.

I don't believe any of those battles are as important to the story of The Order of the Stick as the one that has already happened. (See the very end for why that matters.) And in terms of climax, well, let's look again:

the most intense, exciting, or important point of something; a culmination or apex.

I found two more definitions specific to literary usage:

Climax is the term used to refer to the part of story or play where the tension or action reaches its highest part. Sometimes, the climax is a "crisis" point in the plot.

The climax of a plot is the story's central turning point—the moment of peak tension or conflict—which all the preceding plot developments have been leading up to.

I think if we look even strictly at the action, the Order was defeated until Mr. Scruffy woke Belkar and Durkon figured out how to overpower the vampire. I definitely do not believe we will see the Order reach more of a crisis point than that; I do not believe the Order will find themselves in a more tense or action-packed situation than the battle they found themselves in. And I also believe that the preceding plot developments of the book have been leading up to Durkon overcoming the Vampire, not to Durkon reconciling with Hilgya (who just re-entered the story) or defeating a much less developed and central character in the Ex-Exarch.

"The plot of OOTS is saving the world, and the world needs saving in this way right now." (end of 2nd paragraph)

"The strip is titled The Order of the Stick, not The Chase for the Snarl or even Saving the World." (The whole post is great, really.)

I'm not disagreeing with you that there are still events to resolve; I just don't think any of them are as important or central as Durkon defeating the vampire.

[zimmerwald1915]

"The strip is titled The Order of the Stick, not The Chase for the Snarl or even Saving the World." (The whole post is great, really.)

I'm not disagreeing with you that there are still events to resolve; I just don't think any of them are as important or central as Durkon defeating the vampire.

Blast, you found it before I did.

(And of course you know your own situation better than I. But if it turns out in a few months that you're interested in organizing, please feel free to aske anything that occurs to you. And I don't want to speak for him, but I believe 2d8hp would make an excellenter resource.)

[LadyEowyn]

I would agree that we’re in the denouement. The tension of the narrative peaked with the fight against Durkula followed by the dramatic reveal of new information by Thor that completely alters the Order’s objectives (from “defeat Team Evil” to “form an alliance with Redcloak”).

That tension has ratcheted down sharply with Durkon’s return, and the strips since his return have bern focusing on resolution of emotional arcs. There’s certainly still material to cover in those emotional arcs - I don’t think we’re down to the last ten strips or anything. And we still need to see Durkon tell the team about their change in mission (I’m looking forwards to seeing the other Order members’ reactions to learning they’ll need to work with Redcloak.) There’s even the possibility of another twist involving decisions by the gods.

But the change in narrative tone from an action-focus to an emotional-focus makes me expect there will not be another major fight with the remaining vampires. It would feel anticlimactic at this point. We’ve already had a big Ordrr vs vampires fight with a major emotional component due to Durkon* being the antagonist. Why repeat that with a smaller, weaker group of vampires who have been minor characters?

[Ruck]

Blast, you found it before I did.

(And of course you know your own situation better than I. But if it turns out in a few months that you're interested in organizing, please feel free to aske anything that occurs to you. And I don't want to speak for him, but I believe 2d8hp would make an excellenter resource.)

I appreciate that, I do.

[TheNecrocomicon]

That's understandable, and I agree with you to a point. I do think there are still going to be some events that pop up, but to a lesser extent. Also, that last post I was trying to be blunt to make the point, and was starting to get frustrated. And now it reads as pretty rude. I apologize for that.

Thanks and no worries, I've been contributing to the negativity by taking this much more personally than I should have (including my own limited perception of how things go on these forums) and then venting in return. Takes two to tango, so to speak.

I think if we look even strictly at the action, the Order was defeated until Mr. Scruffy woke Belkar and Durkon figured out how to overpower the vampire. I definitely do not believe we will see the Order reach more of a crisis point than that; I do not believe the Order will find themselves in a more tense or action-packed situation than the battle they found themselves in. And I also believe that the preceding plot developments of the book have been leading up to Durkon overcoming the Vampire, not to Durkon reconciling with Hilgya (who just re-entered the story) or defeating a much less developed and central character in the Ex-Exarch.

"The strip is titled The Order of the Stick, not The Chase for the Snarl or even Saving the World." (The whole post is great, really.)

I'm not disagreeing with you that there are still events to resolve; I just don't think any of them are as important or central as Durkon defeating the vampire.

I do agree that I'm not seeing how the Order could reach more of a crisis point than that, but the Giant has pulled similarly tense things out of his hat before. I didn't see how a fight through a bunch of frost giants in a mountain pass could nearly sink the Mechane and end the Order's journey north, dooming the world, but it almost got there.

The "Word of Giant" I linked to was from late 2015 instead of early 2013, so the emphasis in the one you linked could very well be the right way around, it just seems that more recent ex cathedra declarations by the author would supercede older ones as the writing/story evolves.

I would agree that we’re in the denouement. The tension of the narrative peaked with the fight against Durkula followed by the dramatic reveal of new information by Thor that completely alters the Order’s objectives (from “defeat Team Evil” to “form an alliance with Redcloak”).

That tension has ratcheted down sharply with Durkon’s return, and the strips since his return have bern focusing on resolution of emotional arcs. There’s certainly still material to cover in those emotional arcs - I don’t think we’re down to the last ten strips or anything. And we still need to see Durkon tell the team about their change in mission (I’m looking forwards to seeing the other Order members’ reactions to learning they’ll need to work with Redcloak.) There’s even the possibility of another twist involving decisions by the gods.

But the change in narrative tone from an action-focus to an emotional-focus makes me expect there will not be another major fight with the remaining vampires. It would feel anticlimactic at this point. We’ve already had a big Ordrr vs vampires fight with a major emotional component due to Durkon* being the antagonist. Why repeat that with a smaller, weaker group of vampires who have been minor characters?

I just don't see why the defeat of those remaining agents of Hel -- some of whom have been recurring across much of the book -- is so unimportant as to be relegated to happening off-page due to the stakes involved in saving the world. And if it's going to happen on-page, then it seems extremely likely there will be new complications for the Order to deal with, such that it is not a roflstomp for the protagonists. If that's more aid on Hel's side, sure; if that's Hilgya or the IFCC or some wild-card proving detrimental at a bad moment, sure.