OOTS #1153 - The Discussion Thread

[The_Weirdo]

Come to think of it, Sigdi may well end up sorta-adopting Hilgya.

Hear me out.

Regardless of what you think Hilgya's alignment is, Sigdi, upon hearing her story will likely see someone that's been all but abandoned by her family. And she might well choose to step in for that very reason; it would not be out of character for Sigdi at all.

And no, I'm not saying Sigdi would be the kind of dysfunctional family Hilgya hates. She might well give Hilgya an example of a much better, not-related-by-blood, family.

Yes, Sigdi will impose some order. And Sigdi will also accommodate Hilgya's CN alignment.

For people who think Hilgya's CE, it'd be a redemption arc. For people who think she's CN, a pretty good ending, and one that makes sense; if there's one thing Sigdi is about, it's knowing that blood bonds don't mean that much.

Typical forum thread progression;
Wow Sigdis badass! -> Is knocking a tooth out an Evil act? ->???? -> Yeh I wouldn't recommend Venice for expansionist gameplay...
Part of me wants to know how everyone got there but a larger part knows it will live longer not knowing.

Look, it can't build settlers, okay?

[Grey Watcher]

It sounds like he got the idea after the punch, but not before. Kinda like Durkon, except...lower-level.

Between her specifically saying this was the "first time" he asked and Squeaky also referring to multiple asks, it seems he didn't really get the message. At least not until someone else who reciprocated his interest came along.

[chiefwaha]

Come to think of it, Sigdi may well end up sorta-adopting Hilgya.

Hear me out.

Regardless of what you think Hilgya's alignment is, Sigdi, upon hearing her story will likely see someone that's been all but abandoned by her family. And she might well choose to step in for that very reason; it would not be out of character for Sigdi at all.

And no, I'm not saying Sigdi would be the kind of dysfunctional family Hilgya hates. She might well give Hilgya an example of a much better, not-related-by-blood, family.

Yes, Sigdi will impose some order. And Sigdi will also accommodate Hilgya's CN alignment.

For people who think Hilgya's CE, it'd be a redemption arc. For people who think she's CN, a pretty good ending, and one that makes sense; if there's one thing Sigdi is about, it's knowing that blood bonds don't mean that much.

Honestly, I think this is probable. In my opinion it fits Hilgya's story well, and my opinion of the person Hilgya actually is, which is confused and misfit rather than malevolent. It also mirrors some real life people I've known. May not be a nuclear family situation, but I believe a cordial coparenting is definitely possible.

[deuterio12]

Between her specifically saying this was the "first time" he asked and Squeaky also referring to multiple asks, it seems he didn't really get the message. At least not until someone else who reciprocated his interest came along.

Good detail reminder, seems further proof Sigdi has quite a nice charisma for people to keep asking her hand even after getting a tooth knocked out!

[Rrmcklin]

Honestly, I think this is probable. In my opinion it fits Hilgya's story well, and my opinion of the person Hilgya actually is, which is confused and misfit rather than malevolent.

Even if you don't think she's actively malevolent, I really don't see where she's "confused" or "misfit". She's been very aware of everything she's done and why.

[RaveDave92084]

It's basically nothing but butter and caramel.

MMMMmmmmmmm.... Deep fried Kouign-amann, that would be delicious.

Here in San Diego, CA there is the county fair that deep fries EVERYTHING, Kool-Aid, ice cream, chicken, pies, cakes, butter, etc.

This would be a nice edition, caramel and butter. Drooling already.

Looks easy enough to deep fry.

Unfortunately, according to the above link, the closest place I could probably find it is several hours drive north in San Francisco. They don't deep fry much. You're probably safe there.

Some deep fried food from a couple of years ago:

https://sandiego.eater.com/2016/6/1/...y-fair-del-mar

[Kish]

I think that 1) Rich has not written Hilgya with any ambiguity in her alignment, and 2) Rich is not going to write "the only thing this evil person needed to stop being evil is someone treating her like her evil wasn't actually a problem and everyone giving up expecting her to apologize for or accept responsibility for anything." That would go massively against everything he's suggested with Miko, Belkar, Vaarsuvius...

That said, I'm not at all sure where Rich is going with Hilgya. Like Belkar two books ago, she strikes me as an out-of-time character: someone who fit the gag-a-day comic of early Dungeon of Dorukan, but doesn't fit the book she's in.

[chiefwaha]

Even if you don't think she's actively malevolent, I really don't see where she's "confused" or "misfit". She's been very aware of everything she's done.

I 100% agree with this. My comment was more of a background and overall comment. She's someone that hasn't had a good background, is confused and misfit in dwarven society, leading to warped world views.

I don't know what will happen with Hilgya, I just think that there will be some sort of peaceful coexistence that will happen somehow.

[Potatopeelerkin]

Come to think of it, Sigdi may well end up sorta-adopting Hilgya.

Hear me out.

Regardless of what you think Hilgya's alignment is, Sigdi, upon hearing her story will likely see someone that's been all but abandoned by her family. And she might well choose to step in for that very reason; it would not be out of character for Sigdi at all.

And no, I'm not saying Sigdi would be the kind of dysfunctional family Hilgya hates. She might well give Hilgya an example of a much better, not-related-by-blood, family.

Yes, Sigdi will impose some order. And Sigdi will also accommodate Hilgya's CN alignment.

For people who think Hilgya's CE, it'd be a redemption arc. For people who think she's CN, a pretty good ending, and one that makes sense; if there's one thing Sigdi is about, it's knowing that blood bonds don't mean that much.

I was thinking the same thing. Hilgya doesn't have a family she can go back to. And it probably would be better for Kudzu to have more than just Hilgya around, whatever your opinions are on her mothering abilities.

It'd hardly be the first time she took a bunch of dwarves without a family under her wing, either.

The question is, how awkward would it be for Durkon?

[Worldsong]

With the topic of Sigdi adopting Hilgya I feel like there may be a hurdle in that Sigdi, awesome as she is, is still an awesome dwarf, and the one who raised Durkon.

She'd do a lot better a job obviously but she might still take the approach that abandoning your family and poisoning your arranged husband (or trying to) is bad mojo.

[The_Weirdo]

I think that 1) Rich has not written Hilgya with any ambiguity in her alignment, and 2) Rich is not going to write "the only thing this evil person needed to stop being evil is someone treating her like her evil wasn't actually a problem and everyone giving up expecting her to apologize for or accept responsibility for anything." That would go massively against everything he's suggested with Miko, Belkar, Vaarsuvius...

That said, I'm not at all sure where Rich is going with Hilgya. Like Belkar two books ago, she strikes me as an out-of-time character: someone who fit the gag-a-day comic of early Dungeon of Dorukan, but doesn't fit the book she's in.

Even if you assume Hilgya's alignment to be CE, Sigdi is quite clearly not treating the one act of violence she knows of from Hilgya as "not a problem".

She'd do a lot better a job obviously but she might still take the approach that abandoning your family and poisoning your arranged husband (or trying to) is bad mojo.

Her reaction to something way less understandable was: "Okay, it's done, and I can sorta see your point of view, but don't do it again, or I end you".

Sigdi does not at all strike me as the type to be in favor of forced marriage.

[Ruck]

Imean, they're very different shows; BCS is basically a pure character study, which are by nature slow. Season 4 wasn't the best season, but they got a hell of a lot accomplished in establishing Jimmy's turn to Saul. Jimmy still tries to do good, he's nowhere near the monkey with a machine gun that Saul absolutely is. But now he's a whole lot closer. That said, I'm excited to read a longer dissertation on it when I get the tiem.

I personally reject the dichotomy of character vs. plot in a story; I think character is revealed through action, and action drives plot. What most people describe as a character study is actually a personality study. And I actually don't think they got that much done; they futzed around and dragged out parts of the plot for way too long (and then had to rush through a montage to jump forward in time as a result), and I feel like most of the side stories are distractions and not nearly as interesting as the main one.

That said, more on topic-- Better Call Saul is, like Breaking Bad, a study of transformation, except it seems like the writers have fallen in love with the original character and don't want him to transform, so they're delaying it as long as possible. And more to the point, the pacing is just off-- nothing happens for long periods of time, then the plot becomes rushed at the end of the season. Like I said, it's like they decided where they wanted to end the season, wrote it, realized they only had six episodes or so worth of material, and then instead of writing four episodes of what happens next, just packing those six with filler. (My essay covers pretty much everything I've said at greater length and depth, if you want to read that instead.)

EDIT: Actually, this works as a good litmus test for where we might feel differently: What did you think of Gus' bedside monologue to Hector this season?

[Rrmcklin]

With the topic of Sigdi adopting Hilgya I feel like there may be a hurdle in that Sigdi, awesome as she is, is still an awesome dwarf, and the one who raised Durkon.

She'd do a lot better a job obviously but she might still take the approach that abandoning your family and poisoning your arranged husband (or trying to) is bad mojo.

I mean, abandoning her family is one thing, but I'd certainly hope Sigdi would consider trying to poison Ivan "bad mojo".

[The_Weirdo]

I personally reject the dichotomy of character vs. plot in a story; I think character is revealed through action, and action drives plot. What most people describe as a character study is actually a personality study. And I actually don't think they got that much done; they futzed around and dragged out parts of the plot for way too long (and then had to rush through a montage to jump forward in time as a result), and I feel like most of the side stories are distractions and not nearly as interesting as the main one.

That said, more on topic-- Better Call Saul is, like Breaking Bad, a study of transformation, except it seems like the writers have fallen in love with the original character and don't want him to transform, so they're delaying it as long as possible. And more to the point, the pacing is just off-- nothing happens for long periods of time, then the plot becomes rushed at the end of the season. Like I said, it's like they decided where they wanted to end the season, wrote it, realized they only had six episodes or so worth of material, and then instead of writing four episodes of what happens next, just packing those six with filler. (My essay covers pretty much everything I've said at greater length and depth, if you want to read that instead.)

You wrote an essay on it?

Question: would you peg Chuck as a malignant narcissist?

[understatement]

I love how Sigdi doesn't point out V carrying in Minrah's corpse.

Also, awesome strip. as usual

[Worldsong]

Her reaction to something way less understandable was: "Okay, it's done, and I can sorta see your point of view, but don't do it again, or I end you".

Sigdi does not at all strike me as the type to be in favor of forced marriage.

What she tolerated was something which didn't run directly against the fundamental dwarven values of honour and duty.

It's entirely possible that Sigdi will side with Hilgya with a reasoning along the lines of "Your family should not have tried to push that duty upon you."

It's also entirely possible that she'll agree with Durkon's original assessment ("We're dwarves, our personal happiness is secondary to doing the honourable thing and fulfilling your duty").

[Ruck]

You wrote an essay on it?

Question: would you peg Chuck as a malignant narcissist?

I did; the link is in the spoilers of the post discussing season 4.

I'm not a clinical psychiatrist, so I'm not really qualified to make that judgment (or even know enough to know what it means medically), but it seems fair. For all his high-minded pronouncements about the sanctity of the law, he's simply resentful that people have always liked Jimmy more than him, and that following the rules and doing things the "right" way hasn't changed that.

[Worldsong]

Following the rules and doing things the right way is supposed to make you more likeable?

[The_Weirdo]

What she tolerated was something which didn't run directly against the fundamental dwarven values of honour and duty.

It's entirely possible that Sigdi will side with Hilgya with a reasoning along the lines of "Your family should not have tried to push that duty upon you."

It's also entirely possible that she'll agree with Durkon's original assessment ("We're dwarves, our personal happiness is secondary to doing the honourable thing and fulfilling your duty").

Doubtful.

One, because Durkon going ballistic about how she was "married" back then is clearly shown now as wrong and Sigdi's a pretty awesome character.

Two, because Sigdi has way, way, way, way, way more tact than Durkon and is more understanding as well.

Three, because the "Marry me" option is also "dwarven honor" and she didn't seem to mind the refusal so much as the flame strike (about which she and Hilgya reached an understanding).

Following the rules and doing things the right way is supposed to make you more likeable?

This isn't about following rules.

Malignant narcissists like to be the center of attention, period. Jimmy could be a Modron Paladin for all Chuck cared; he was stealing Chuck's thunder and, in a malignant narcissist's view, there is no higher crime.

[Potatopeelerkin]

What she tolerated was something which didn't run directly against the fundamental dwarven values of honour and duty.

It's entirely possible that Sigdi will side with Hilgya with a reasoning along the lines of "Your family should not have tried to push that duty upon you."

It's also entirely possible that she'll agree with Durkon's original assessment ("We're dwarves, our personal happiness is secondary to doing the honourable thing and fulfilling your duty").

She strikes me as the kind of person to try and see the best in people wherever possible. I doubt her first response upon hearing about something she wasn't a part of would be to immediately pass judgement. Setting Hilgya on the right path so it doesn't happen again though, sure.

Also, she didn't respond poorly upon hearing that Durkon and Hilgya weren't in a relationship, so I doubt it's as meaningful to her as it is to Durkon.

[Ruck]

Following the rules and doing things the right way is supposed to make you more likeable?

Yeah, it's a pretty screwed-up perspective, and made all the worse by how he deals with it:

Spoiler: Better Call Saul, the first two and a half seasons or so

Show

Rather than cutting ties with Jimmy, Chuck gets him a job, but when Jimmy works hard taking classes in his free time to become a lawyer, Chuck tries to sabotage his career at every turn, from blocking his hire (and hiding behind his partner to do it-- Chuck is not just a betrayer of family but a coward), to stealing his girlfriend's clients out of spite, to trying to engineer a scenario that would get Jimmy disbarred. All of this while Jimmy cares for Chuck through his psychosomatic illness.

[Worldsong]

Doubtful.

One, because Durkon going ballistic about how she was "married" back then is clearly shown now as wrong and Sigdi's a pretty awesome character.

Two, because Sigdi has way, way, way, way, way more tact than Durkon and is more understanding as well.

Three, because the "Marry me" option is also "dwarven honor" and she didn't seem to mind the refusal so much as the flame strike (about which she and Hilgya reached an understanding).

She strikes me as the kind of person to try and see the best in people wherever possible. I doubt her first response upon hearing about something she wasn't a part of would be to immediately pass judgement. Setting Hilgya on the right path so it doesn't happen again though, sure.

Also, she didn't respond poorly upon hearing that Durkon and Hilgya weren't in a relationship, so I doubt it's as meaningful to her as it is to Durkon.

I did say that Sigdi would do a lot better a job on the subject.

Honestly I could see it go either way.

It wouldn't surprise me if she was more strict about how you treat being part of a marriage, especially if that marriage was the sacrifice you could have made for the good of your clan.

[The_Weirdo]

Yeah, it's a pretty screwed-up perspective, and made all the worse by how he deals with it:

Spoiler: Better Call Saul, the first two and a half seasons or so

Show

Rather than cutting ties with Jimmy, Chuck gets him a job, but when Jimmy works hard taking classes in his free time to become a lawyer, Chuck tries to sabotage his career at every turn, from blocking his hire (and hiding behind his partner to do it-- Chuck is not just a betrayer of family but a coward), to stealing his girlfriend's clients out of spite, to trying to engineer a scenario that would get Jimmy disbarred. All of this while Jimmy cares for Chuck through his psychosomatic illness.

Spoiler

Show

Chuck rationalizes it as the fact that he follows rules or the sanctity of law or whatever, but, in practice, he wants to tear his brother apart because he doesn't want to share the limelight.

[Kish]

Even if you assume Hilgya's alignment to be CE, Sigdi is quite clearly not treating the one act of violence she knows of from Hilgya as "not a problem".

Don't misuse the word "assume."

Sigdi's reaction, appropriate or otherwise, is currently one character's quirky reaction. Your proposed scenario has it being a door to Hilgya Karma Houdiniing her way to redemption without fulfilling any of the criteria for it Soon described--down to "admit that you could, in fact, be wrong."

[The_Weirdo]

Don't misuse the word "assume."

To the best of my knowledge, I'm not.

"If one assumes", if you prefer. As in, even if we held as undeniable truth that she is CE.

Sigdi's reaction, appropriate or otherwise, is currently one character's quirky reaction. Your proposed scenario has it being a door to Hilgya Karma Houdiniing her way to redemption without fulfilling any of the criteria for it Soon described--down to "admit that you could, in fact, be wrong."

You're assuming it was wrong for Hilgya to bankrupt her family...

[Fyraltari]

You're assuming it was wrong for Hilgya to bankrupt her family...

Judging, you mean.

[The_Weirdo]

Judging, you mean.

No, I mean working off the assumption...

[Ruck]

You wrote an essay on it?

Question: would you peg Chuck as a malignant narcissist?

Oh, in case you or anyone doesn't want to risk reading those other spoilers, but still wants to read that essay:

http://www.the-solute.com/better-stall-saul/

(and yes, I agree with your most recent spoiler comment.)

[Potatopeelerkin]

Don't misuse the word "assume."

Sigdi's reaction, appropriate or otherwise, is currently one character's quirky reaction. Your proposed scenario has it being a door to Hilgya Karma Houdiniing her way to redemption without fulfilling any of the criteria for it Soon described--down to "admit that you could, in fact, be wrong."

I think that refers to paladin redemption. And that is also to restore a Lawful Good position, not a Chaotic Neutral. As Belkar said (wow, that sounds weird to say) change is gradual. To expect that she could only immediately switch tack now or never find her way to redemption ever seems like a false binary. And Sigdi seems like the perfect role model to show that happiness is not a zero-sum game- putting others first doesn't mean you have to make yourself miserable.

To the best of my knowledge, I'm not.

"If one assumes", if you prefer. As in, even if we held as undeniable truth that she is CE.

I assume she's CE based on her explanation to Durkon on this page, where she sees things as a competition first and foremost. But that worldview puts her nowhere near the point of no return where Xykon is.

[Fyraltari]

No, I mean working off the assumption...

"assumption" implies that there is a definite, objective, indeniable truth to be found that could later be proven right or wrong( generally wrong) as in "I assumed you knew". You may have been thinking of premise.