OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

[Fyraltari]

Because they're Evil. V was already about to take the splice. They just wanted to twist the knife (different knife, of course).

Really? You think these three gave V a chance to refuse, therefore endangered their plans, just for the evulz and that it wasn't as Qarr put it "A master class in temptation"?

[Crœsos]

And Sending takes 10 minutes to cast.

I didn't know that. That makes sense.

You could just pretend that ten minutes pass between each panel.

[woweedd]

I wouldn't (I hope). But again I see an element of "I've come this far..."

Why do you think the Fiends manufactured a second option for them?

To re-frame their decision-making process. It's not just about the actions, it's about the motivation. Making a deal with Evil to save your family, though not God, could be a argued as "doing what I needed to do". Making a deal with Evil for your own ego? Not so much. Whether or not the plan would have actually worked, as long as V THOUGHT it would've worked, THOUGHT they had another option, their decision became about ego, not about saving their children, thus shifting the motivation further towards Evil. Whether or not V needed the convincing, I don't know, although i'm wiling to bet they would Brahe taken the deal with or without the alternate plan presented. All it did was shift their motivation.

[Peelee]

Really? You think these three gave V a chance to refuse, therefore endangered their plans, just for the evulz and that it wasn't as Qarr put it "A master class in temptation"?

Again, V was already about to accept, was already sold. What were they tempting V with? All they did was force V to realize that it was for selfish reasons. I would say they knew V would take the deal no matter what, because of V's pride.

You could just pretend that ten minutes pass between each panel.

That doesn't work when those ten minutes mean your family will be killed and Soul Bound.

[Fyraltari]

To re-frame their decision-making process. It's not just about the actions, it's about the motivation. Making a deal with Evil to save your family, though not God, could be a argued as "doing what I needed to do". Making a deal with Evil for your own ego? Not so much. Whether or not the plan would have actually worked, as long as V THOUGHT it would've worked, THOUGHT they had another option, their decision became about ego, not about saving their children, thus shifting the motivation further towards Evil.

Exactly, and they wanted V to be more Evil, to be more honest about their motivation, because they wnted them to challenege Xykon, which would have had a lower chance of happening if V fooled themselves into thinking they were doing it selfelssly to save their family.

Whether or not V needed the convincing, I don't know, although i'm wiling to bet they would Brahe taken the deal with or without the alternate plan presented. All it did was shift their motivation.

There are two importants choices by V as far as the Fiends were concerned:
1) Taking the deal and
2) Attacking Xykon
If V wasn't presented with the second option they would certainly take the deal, but there would be alower chance of them doing anything with it apart from killing the mother dragon. If V was presented with the second option there was a lower chance of them taking the deal but once taken there was a greater chance of them attacking Xykon.

[woweedd]

Exactly, and they wanted V to be more Evil, to be more honest about their motivation, because they wnted them to challenege Xykon, which would have had a lower chance of happening if V fooled themselves into thinking they were doing it selfelssly to save their family.

There are two importants choices by V as far as the Fiends were concerned:
1) Taking the deal and
2) Attacking Xykon
If V wasn't presented with the second option they would certainly take the deal, but there would be alower chance of them doing anything with it apart from killing the mother dragon. If V was presented with the second option there was a lower chance of them taking the deal but once taken there was a greater chance of them attacking Xykon.

O...K? What is your argument?

[Fyraltari]

O...K? What is your argument?

Trance-deprivation lead V to believe the alternate plan was feasible which forced them to admit they weren't doing this selflessly which lead them to attack Xykon which was what the Fiends wanted.

Also, without the trance dprivation they might have had a better check on their worst desires and refuse the deal altogether but that is hard to tell especially since it would need to weighed against the dragon attack.

EDIT: And none of this excuses V, to be clear.

[OneSpartan]

"Loki sucks"

Imagine if the entire dwarven "hatred of trees" doctrine exists just because the stone mason needed a way to finish the phrase.

[Snails]

Exactly, and they wanted V to be more Evil, to be more honest about their motivation, because they wnted them to challenege Xykon, which would have had a lower chance of happening if V fooled themselves into thinking they were doing it selfelssly to save their family.

V going after Xykon was a given, once the deal was accepted to save hir family.

V employing Familicide was not a given, but a deliciously Evil possibility that would clear the board of a powerful faction in the Gate race.

I interpret goading V as a purposeful tactic to increase the odds of Familicide, among other things.

[MReav]

Finally! A weapon that Xykon doesn't have resistance to.

[GreatWyrmGold]

V isn't trancing to learn new spells, V is trancing to prepare their spells for the day

That's still something they did while going without trance.

Whether it is the Hammer of Thunderbolts or just a Dwarven Thrower, it is still going to hurt when it makes contact.

If it is the Hammer and those are Gauntlets of Ogre Power, then Durkon will need a belt of Giant Strength. If one is not in the drawer, there is still one available.

But Roy would have to be willing to give it up.

Shouldn't be hard. Roy seems like the type who'd be willing to give up a moderate bonus in order to give an ally a major bonus.

V's trance is like a human's sleep. It's just rest, although elves have no downsides for not tracing, IIRC.

Eh...reduced downsides. Those are not the eyes, complexion, and aim of a perfectly healthy elf.

The Giant himself laid it out a long time ago:

Those two statements don't seem to be contradictory, nor do they support one another. I suppose they're complementary, arguably...

It's funny that the inscription at Thor's statue heralds him as "Champion of killing trees" despite that being a Dwarven misconception.

Who do you think made the statue?

Irrelevant. There was an immediate need that had to be addressed. Taking the deal was the only way* to save their family at that point, to the best of my knowledge.
*i know we had a discussion in this the other day, and hey, I'm open to being wrong. All ears.

I mean, there are actions V could take that theoretically could have saved her family, if things played out right. But there aren't any actions they could take that would probably save her family.

I would suggest that the trance deprivation was the primary factor in letting things get that far. Had V not been so exhausted, they would have been much less likely to abandon the fleet or, barring that, to lose to the ABD so badly (ie missing their dimensional anchor). The scenario would have been sufficiently different that the IFCC's deal would not be the only perceived way forward.

1. Also, the black dragon explicitly said she was waiting for an opportunity when V was alone.
2. On the other hand, the causality does not go Trance Deprivation —> Abandon Fleet. In fact, neither caused the other; they were both caused by V's guilt, feelings of impotence, etc.

That Vaarsuvius didn't require any warm milk to trance. The joke being that Vaarsuivus is less childlike than Elan.

And also that Blackwing finds mammals disgusting.

I don't really see much of a distinction between "obviously they wouldn't drop it, they had what they always wanted" and "obviously they'd pick it up to begin with, it was what they always wanted."

I can see a distinction dependant on context; e.g, if V also wanted to keep their family intact and didn't hav other business to attend to, there wouldn't be much reason to hold onto the splice (what, to feel powerful for a few more days?) and reason enough to drop it.

Because they're Evil. V was already about to take the splice. They just wanted to twist the knife (different knife, of course).

That is neither true of all Evil beings, nor mutually-exclusive with wanting to encourage V to hold onto the splice.

[zimmerwald1915]

And also that Blackwing finds mammals disgusting.

I mean, he's not wrong. Blackwing is still, however, a disgusting biophiliac.

[Fyraltari]

V going after Xykon was a given, once the deal was accepted to save hir family.

According to the Directors, it was 84% of a given.

V employing Familicide was not a given, but a deliciously Evil possibility that would clear the board of a powerful faction in the Gate race.

I interpret goading V as a purposeful tactic to increase the odds of Familicide, among other things.

They did not foresee it, they were shocked by it.
Also we don't know what exactly their plans are, but we know they want conflict. Eliminating one faction entirely does not help that goal.

EDIT:

I don't really see much of a distinction between "obviously they wouldn't drop it, they had what they always wanted" and "obviously they'd pick it up to begin with, it was what they always wanted."

It is easier to hold to something you acquired while acting wrongly than to act wrongly to a acquire something. In the first case you can "the harm's already done, so why not enjoy the upside of it".

[rbetieh]

man that rivalry with loki reaches far....

[Rrmcklin]

V going after Xykon was a given, once the deal was accepted to save hir family.

V employing Familicide was not a given, but a deliciously Evil possibility that would clear the board of a powerful faction in the Gate race.

I interpret goading V as a purposeful tactic to increase the odds of Familicide, among other things.

I don't, because even the IFCC were clearly surprised by it when it happened. I also wouldn't assume that the IFCC had intimate knowledge of each gate, who was defending it, and how. They needed Sabine to inform them about their very existences, after all.

[Pampukin]

Really? You think these three gave V a chance to refuse, therefore endangered their plans, just for the evulz and that it wasn't as Qarr put it "A master class in temptation"?

I think as Woweedd said, its to further damn V. Should any contest be held for their soul, once dead the argument "It wasnt a fully councious desicion" wouldnt fly. That is besides the whole familicide thing, Just the "pact with devils" evil act.

[schmunzel]

WHY?!

Why wasn't Elan in the room for this?!?!

fair question

- His bardic training would have immediately given way the kind of artifact Durkon found. And it is supposed to come as a surprise at later Point?

I cant' think of any other reason at this point

sch

[Fyraltari]

I think as Woweedd said, its to further damn V. Should any contest be held for their soul, once dead the argument "It wasnt a fully councious desicion" wouldnt fly. That is besides the whole familicide thing, Just the "pact with devils" evil act.

Except, they don't really care about V's soul.

[Potato_Priest]

Finally! A weapon that Xykon doesn't have resistance to.

Actually, liches are immune to electricity.

[D.One]

fair question

- His bardic training would have immediately given way the kind of artifact Durkon found. And it is supposed to come as a surprise at later Point?

I cant' think of any other reason at this point

sch

The reason I see is the joke about giving him a glass of milk in order for him to sleep...

Except, they don't really care about V's soul.

They don't completely "don't care". It's a free soup or salad, after all.

[Nith]

Who do you think made the statue?

Yes, I know. I'm not stupid... I just still find it funny.

[niklinna]

Nice touch with the gloves.

That reminded me of an episode of a quaint old TV show, Lost in Space: The Space Vikings. In which Dr. Smith stumbles upon the gloves of Thor. And Thor's hammer. And Thor.



Hit youtube for clips, if you think you can stand the camp.

[Lord Raziere]

Yup, probably going forward the world's easiest to hack password.

But serves its purpose: after all, saying Loki sucks is blasphemy against their god, and what cleric would do that?

[Peelee]

Exactly, and they wanted V to be more Evil, to be more honest about their motivation, because they wnted them to challenege Xykon, which would have had a lower chance of happening if V fooled themselves into thinking they were doing it selfelssly to save their family.

What does that have to do with the trance deprivation, though? This whole thing is supposed to be an exploration of whether V would have accepted the deal without the trance deprivation. It sure seems like V would have accepted it under any condition, which is what the IFCC makes clear.

[SilverCacaobean]

What does that have to do with the trance deprivation, though? This whole thing is supposed to be an exploration of whether V would have accepted the deal without the trance deprivation. It sure seems like V would have accepted it under any condition, which is what the IFCC makes clear.

It's possible that V would have been able to see that the alternate plan proposed by the IFCC was bogus were it not for the trance deprivation. I think that's what Fyraltari's arguing.

But I think it's also pretty clear that V would make the same decision even without trance deprivation if they were presented with a similar situation with two actually legitimate choices.

I think what's said here is also what can be said about the trance deprivation.

Edit: I'm talking about the part where if V blamed their actions on the trance deprivation, they'd die without acknowledging or repenting for their crime.

[Fyraltari]

What does that have to do with the trance deprivation, though? This whole thing is supposed to be an exploration of whether V would have accepted the deal without the trance deprivation. It sure seems like V would have accepted it under any condition, which is what the IFCC makes clear.

People in an unhealthy state of mind (ie exhaustion here) tend to think less about their actions. It is hard to say that V would not have taken the deal if they had tranced properly, but I do think it played a part.

I think what's said here is also what can be said about the trance deprivation.

Edit: I'm talking about the part where if V blamed their actions on the trance deprivation, they'd die without acknowledging or repenting for their crime.

Nobody said that being tranced deprived alleviated V's culpability. It was 100% V. But the same people can make different choices in different contextes. All I am saying is that the trance-deprivation is part of the explanation of V's actions, not an excuse for it.

[zimmerwald1915]

It sure seems like V would have accepted it under any condition, which is what the IFCC makes clear.

The question is, would Vaarsuvius have been in a position to accept the deal without being trance-deprived? Without being trance-deprived, she probably would not have left the fleet and thus probably would not have been attacked by the Ancient Black Dragon. Without being trance-deprived, she may not have expended so many high-level spells attempting to see off Qarr (incidentally, Vaarsuvius was emphatically not buying what Qarr was selling before the Ancient Black Dragon arrived), and thus would not have given the Ancient Black Dragon the opening she needed to attack. Relatedly, without being trance-deprived, she may have hit the Ancient Black Dragon with a dimensional anchor. Without being trance-deprived, she may not have asked Qarr to make a devil's bargain even after the Ancient Black Dragon's speech - if she hadn't, the Directors would not have been able to "intercede on [her] account."

Totality of the circumstances suggests that Vaarsuvius's trance-deprivation was an important factor in her behavior, if not a proximate cause of her decision or a mitigating factor in any moral judgment of that decision.

[Peelee]

It's possible that V would have been able to see that the alternate plan proposed by the IFCC was bogus were it not for the trance deprivation. I think that's what Fyraltari's arguing.

But that doesn't matter, because V was already going to take the deal.

The question is, would Vaarsuvius have been in a position to accept the deal without being trance-deprived? Without being trance-deprived, she probably would not have left the fleet and thus probably would not have been attacked by the Ancient Black Dragon. Without being trance-deprived, she may not have expended so many high-level spells attempting to see off Qarr (incidentally, Vaarsuvius was emphatically not buying what Qarr was selling before the Ancieng Black Dragon arrived), and thus would not have given the Ancient Black Dragon the opening she needed to attack. Relatedly, without being trance-deprived, she may have hit the Ancient Black Dragon with a dimensional anchor. Without being trance-deprived, she may not have asked Qarr to make a devil's bargain even after the Ancient Black Dragon's speech - if she hadn't, the Directors would not have been able to "intercede on [her] account."

Totality of the circumstances suggests that Vaarsuvius's trance-deprivation was an important factor in her behavior, if not a proximate cause of her decision or a mitigating factor in any moral judgment of that decision.

Now that is a much better way of looking at it. Though I still think V would have ultimately taken it even without the deprivation, if given the chance. Pride goeth before the fall.

[SoulOfTheReaver]

This page best read with AC/DC - Thunderstruck playing in the background.



P.S. Damn, Durkon is now packing the power.

[braveheart]

Devine artifacts ftw