What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

[137beth]

Miko still falls, because that'd still kill Shojo (and even if not it would be breaking her vow to break the gate). Tower explodes, Miko maybe survives depending on how fast she loses her paladin powers. Roy's probably dead, not sure on Hinjo. If team evil don't learn of this immediately, they show up like a week later to a panicking city with a slowly expanding hole in reality above it. Xykon sighs, murders the entire hobgoblin army himself for fun, and teleports himself, the mitd and Redcloak to the windy valley gate. By the time the heroes have even started thinking of trying to check that, he's already captured it due to being immune to like 90% of what the draketooth clan was using to protect the gate.

The fate of the world hinges on whether or not one of those three can see through the double bluff.

In that scenario, the MitD would never meet O-Chul, and so would still essentially be on Xykon's side. So, any intuition he has about the double-bluff would be something he'd be more likely to share. I suspect that at least one of Redcloak or the MitD could figure it out: the only question is whether Xykon would fall for it and refuse to listen to either of them before teleporting to Kragor's tomb.

[Squire Doodad]

In that scenario, the MitD would never meet O-Chul, and so would still essentially be on Xykon's side. So, any intuition he has about the double-bluff would be something he'd be more likely to share. I suspect that at least one of Redcloak or the MitD could figure it out: the only question is whether Xykon would fall for it and refuse to listen to either of them before teleporting to Kragor's tomb.

Also Xykon would be resistant but not immune persay. The Draketooths would likely fall, but with a tactical explosion of the gate they could take him out after a major attrition with...well...everything possible. They have high-end illusionists, and may well have a few low-Epics if the "go out and have kids" bit is more intense than we think and involves them raiding keeps and felling the White Dragon of Reddragonsville and the like.

In general, this scenario probably screws over everyone, killing probably half the party or more, obliterating Azure City due to the unraveling political situation (no Shojo or Hinjo along with a massive hole in reality), and leaving Xykon nearly unopposed as he plots. The only possible upside is that the Draketooths never get hit by Familicide, which leaves them as basically the last hope aside from "magic rock falls, Xykon and Redcloak die". Also, even if they do fail for whatever reason, TDO is still left unrecruited and leads to further continuation of the cycle.

[Aquillion]

Also, even if they do fail for whatever reason, TDO is still left unrecruited and leads to further continuation of the cycle.

Maybe. The gods do get other chances to try and recruit him for the rest of the lifespan of this universe.

[Kish]

...may...well...have...a...few...low...epics...

I am eternally mystified by the number of people who seem to think the Forgotten Realms is a low-powered setting.

[RatElemental]

Yeah I'm gonna go out on a limb and say "a few high midlevel spellcasters" is what the Draketooth clan was rocking at best. Maybe like one of them was capable of 8th level spells I'd imagine.

Epics are right out, let alone multiple. If they had epic casters, especially multiple, there's no way familicide would have wiped them all out.

[Schroeswald]

Yeah I'm gonna go out on a limb and say "a few high midlevel spellcasters" is what the Draketooth clan was rocking at best. Maybe like one of them was capable of 8th level spells I'd imagine.

Epics are right out, let alone multiple. If they had epic casters, especially multiple, there's no way familicide would have wiped them all out.

I don't disagree with your point, but I imagine familicide would kill them no matter what, V's effective level was incredibly high and we've shown no sign anyone could have resisted it.

[RatElemental]

I don't disagree with your point, but I imagine familicide would kill them no matter what, V's effective level was incredibly high and we've shown no sign anyone could have resisted it.

ECL and CL are not necessarily the same number. But you're also ignoring the fact that as your level increases the opportunities you have to be immune to death effects just as a normal part of your daily retinue of buffs increases.

[D.One]

On a variant of the thread (excuse me if it has been done before, but searching for 46+ pages to check is a bit too much), imagine a situation where Miko doesn't kill Shojo not because she didn't try, but because she didn't success: she misses the strike (even high level characters can get a '1'), or doesn't do enough damage with one strike and is prevented from taking another by Roy hinjo and Co.

Attacking her defenseless liege out of her delusional madness still makes her Fall, and she's arrested, but this time Shojo is present during the preparations and the Battle of Azure City, enabling for a maybe more experienced response, and maybe less infighting from the nobles.

What's more, maybe some other details could happen diferently:

1) Miko is still somewhat loyal to Azure City, and could be offered a deal to fight in the war. I believe that, despite her grudges and exagerations, she might accept, because she still sees herself as the hero and the protector of Azure City.

2) Hinjo would probably be stationed in the throne room, for whatever that's good for.

3) Shojo, perceiving the danger for this gate and other gates, might be less inclined to keep on with the oath and try to contact other guardians for help or at least to warn them.

[Ruck]

If they had epic casters, especially multiple, there's no way familicide would have wiped them all out.

I don't see how that follows.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't see how that follows.

I believe the idea is that epic casters will regularly cast protection against insta-death effects; and we already know the Draketooths had scheduled defensive spellcasting, so it'd stand to reason that they'd have their own personal ones. Epic magic might punch through non-epic death protection, but would have trouble with epic-level.

Not sure I completely agree with all of it, but it's a reasonable thought thread. That said, "there just ain't that many epic spellcasters in OotS, and you certainly don't get there by sitting in a pyramid hidden from the world" is a much more solid reasoning.

Grey Wolf

[RatElemental]

I believe the idea is that epic casters will regularly cast protection against insta-death effects; and we already know the Draketooths had scheduled defensive spellcasting, so it'd stand to reason that they'd have their own personal ones. Epic magic might punch through non-epic death protection, but would have trouble with epic-level.

Not sure I completely agree with all of it, but it's a reasonable thought thread. That said, "there just ain't that many epic spellcasters in OotS, and you certainly don't get there by sitting in a pyramid hidden from the world" is a much more solid reasoning.

Grey Wolf

It also boosts one's saves and hit dice, increasing the chance the spell runs out of HD it can affect before getting to the caster or them being able to just have their day ruined by it instead of being killed by it. That said, I can find nothing that would suggest epic death effects can even overcome death effect immunity in the first place.

[Squire Doodad]

Yeah I'm gonna go out on a limb and say "a few high midlevel spellcasters" is what the Draketooth clan was rocking at best. Maybe like one of them was capable of 8th level spells I'd imagine.

Epics are right out, let alone multiple. If they had epic casters, especially multiple, there's no way familicide would have wiped them all out.

Yeah in retrospect a few low-epics is improbable. Probably plenty of midlevel casters and a few high-level ones, like in the low teens?

[Aquillion]

TBH if they cast intelligently and focused on counterspelling + dispelling anything he and Redcloak do, a handful of 13th level casters plus a dozen or so lower-level casters could probably beat them. Redcloak and Xykon have no intel on what they're walking into and probably arrive like they do in the story; meanwhile, the Draketooths seem to be well-organized and probably have a detailed plan in case they're attacked by a high-level caster. With three or four lower-level casters spamming Dispel Magic at Redcloak + Xykon to dispel / counter anything they do, they have a good chance of winning. Xykon might have some epic answer, but if so we haven't really seen it; his go-to strategy against enemy casters seems to be level drain, which isn't as helpful when you're outnumbered (even if he manages to get a few spells through their counters.)

I mean that wouldn't happen in the normal story because it would be dull, but we're well off the rails at this point; if we're just going by relative strength and not comic-logic, the Draketooths have a decent chance at stopping him. Casters grow exponentially in power, sure, but casterfights are still ultimately about action economy - even a high-level caster like Xykon is going to struggle when outnumbered ten to one or worse by people who can try to dispel / counter anything he does.

[Squire Doodad]

TBH if they cast intelligently and focused on counterspelling + dispelling anything he and Redcloak do, a handful of 13th level casters plus a dozen or so lower-level casters could probably beat them. Redcloak and Xykon have no intel on what they're walking into and probably arrive like they do in the story; meanwhile, the Draketooths seem to be well-organized and probably have a detailed plan in case they're attacked by a high-level caster. With three or four lower-level casters spamming Dispel Magic at Redcloak + Xykon to dispel / counter anything they do, they have a good chance of winning. Xykon might have some epic answer, but if so we haven't really seen it; his go-to strategy against enemy casters seems to be level drain, which isn't as helpful when you're outnumbered (even if he manages to get a few spells through their counters.)

I mean that wouldn't happen in the normal story because it would be dull, but we're well off the rails at this point; if we're just going by relative strength and not comic-logic, the Draketooths have a decent chance at stopping him. Casters grow exponentially in power, sure, but casterfights are still ultimately about action economy - even a high-level caster like Xykon is going to struggle when outnumbered ten to one or worse by people who can try to dispel / counter anything he does.

What do you guys think are the odds that the Draketooths themselves would be able to take down RC and Xykon through illusions alone? Could Girard have made an illusion that disregards creature-based immunities?

[Schroeswald]

What do you guys think are the odds that the Draketooths themselves would be able to take down RC and Xykon through illusions alone? Could Girard have made an illusion that disregards creature-based immunities?

I doubt it, but it would hurt them and give the Draketooths time to prepare (in a tactical not mechanical sense) some more combat spells and plans.

[Squire Doodad]

I doubt it, but it would hurt them and give the Draketooths time to prepare (in a tactical not mechanical sense) some more combat spells and plans.

I suspect that regardless of racial immunities they would be able to stop Redcloak, but not Xykon.

[Aquillion]

What do you guys think are the odds that the Draketooths themselves would be able to take down RC and Xykon through illusions alone? Could Girard have made an illusion that disregards creature-based immunities?

That depends on epic illusions, so it's hard to say. It seems unlikely that that would work, though.

And I think they'd know not to try - illusions are great against some opponents, but not generally a good idea against a high-level caster who can just cast True Seeing; it seems like they'd have to be actually, intentionally ignoring their capabilities to avoid learning Dispel Magic and a few works-on-anything combat spells. They're illusionists, sure, but they're still sorcerers.

I find it hard to imagine that Draketooth's answer to "what if we're attacked by something with True Seeing and mind-affecting immunity" was "well, I guess we just roll over and die, then." Especially considering that the teammates he was worried about included an epic wizard.

[Squire Doodad]

That depends on epic illusions, so it's hard to say. It seems unlikely that that would work, though.

And I think they'd know not to try - illusions are great against some opponents, but not generally a good idea against a high-level caster who can just cast True Seeing; it seems like they'd have to be actually, intentionally ignoring their capabilities to avoid learning Dispel Magic and a few works-on-anything combat spells. They're illusionists, sure, but they're still sorcerers.

Saying "what if there's no True Seeing" kind of changes the equation too much anyways.
My question is more of a "RC and Xykon go in with a prepared spell list but not neccesarily on guard, how do they fare against the traps and illusions in the pyramid", not against the Draketooths fighting with illusions.

[Aquillion]

Saying "what if there's no True Seeing" kind of changes the equation too much anyways.
My question is more of a "RC and Xykon go in with a prepared spell list but not neccesarily on guard, how do they fare against the traps and illusions in the pyramid", not against the Draketooths fighting with illusions.

If you mean no Draketooths at all, they stomp - the static stuff there wasn't going to stop them.

If you mean a general brawl with the Draketooths, they lose due to action economy (at least if we're actually playing it out and assume the Draketooths haven't intentionally chosen terrible spell lists for philosophical reasons or something.)

[Squire Doodad]

If you mean no Draketooths at all, they stomp - the static stuff there wasn't going to stop them.

If you mean a general brawl with the Draketooths, they lose due to action economy (at least if we're actually playing it out and assume the Draketooths haven't intentionally chosen terrible spell lists for philosophical reasons or something.)

The Draketooths are the metagame equivalents of hipsters - they only choose spells with super limited uses and without any real purpose in more than 40% of scenarios.

[Schroeswald]

Saying "what if there's no True Seeing" kind of changes the equation too much anyways.
My question is more of a "RC and Xykon go in with a prepared spell list but not neccesarily on guard, how do they fare against the traps and illusions in the pyramid", not against the Draketooths fighting with illusions.

Well if they had to deal with what the Order faced they'd breeze through, and we have no real clue what the illusions in the pyramids were originally, I imagine they would slow them down but they'd definitely be able to make it at least as far as the Linear Guild if the Draketooths fighting them weren't a factor, I find it pretty plausible they don't see through the double bluff, but I find Redcloak (and no one else) seeing through it plausible as well.

[Schroeswald]

The Draketooths are the metagame equivalents of hipsters - they only choose spells with super limited uses and without any real purpose in more than 40% of scenarios.

Citation needed? Girard had to be at least as good in combat as Elan to be at all helpful to the Scribbles, and I'd say Elan can do things more than 40% of the time (and presumably the Draketooths aren't all built exactly like Girard just less powerful).

[Squire Doodad]

Well if they had to deal with what the Order faced they'd breeze through, and we have no real clue what the illusions in the pyramids were originally, I imagine they would slow them down but they'd definitely be able to make it at least as far as the Linear Guild if the Draketooths fighting them weren't a factor, I find it pretty plausible they don't see through the double bluff, but I find Redcloak (and no one else) seeing through it plausible as well.

Let's assume that there are, in fact, illusions still around the traps as well as many illusions scattered around as traps in their own right. Otherwise it amounts to "dungeon of many traps and very few foes which you'll probably see coming half of the time"

[diremage]

In theory if you stack enough lowbie casters spamming Sound Burst and Acid Arrow they stand a pretty good chance of forcing Xykon to retreat, although given his tendency to Meteor Swarm first and ask questions later that's probably not a good long-term strategy.

He is probably high enough level that basic dispel magic capped at +10 CL isn't going even slow him down and even greater dispel magic will only work occasionally.

I would tend to think that even if the Draketooths were alive, at best they'd delay him for a day and force him to come back with some specific preparations.

The gate faction with the best chance of stopping him were the Sapphire Guard and they didn't quite manage it, although they came very close.

[Squire Doodad]

In theory if you stack enough lowbie casters spamming Sound Burst and Acid Arrow they stand a pretty good chance of forcing Xykon to retreat, although given his tendency to Meteor Swarm first and ask questions later that's probably not a good long-term strategy.

He is probably high enough level that basic dispel magic capped at +10 CL isn't going even slow him down and even greater dispel magic will only work occasionally.

I would tend to think that even if the Draketooths were alive, at best they'd delay him for a day and force him to come back with some specific preparations.

The gate faction with the best chance of stopping him were the Sapphire Guard and they didn't quite manage it, although they came very close.

In an alternate timeline, they win and crush Xykon and RC. Ironically, the only member of the Scribble who knew how to destroy a phylactery was Soon, so...

[Schroeswald]

In theory if you stack enough lowbie casters spamming Sound Burst and Acid Arrow they stand a pretty good chance of forcing Xykon to retreat, although given his tendency to Meteor Swarm first and ask questions later that's probably not a good long-term strategy.

He is probably high enough level that basic dispel magic capped at +10 CL isn't going even slow him down and even greater dispel magic will only work occasionally.

I would tend to think that even if the Draketooths were alive, at best they'd delay him for a day and force him to come back with some specific preparations.

The gate faction with the best chance of stopping him were the Sapphire Guard and they didn't quite manage it, although they came very close.

The Sapphire Guard is strong enough too defeat them, in this theoretical plan they do after all, I'd think the Draketooths have a fairly decent chance considering we have no clue what their strongest defenses are.

[diremage]

In an alternate timeline, they win and crush Xykon and RC. Ironically, the only member of the Scribble who knew how to destroy a phylactery was Soon, so...

But in a shocking twist, after Xykon and Redcloak are defeated, The Dark One no longer has any clerics able to cast level 9 spells. A short while later, the Snarl breaks free of the few remaining gates, and without the Fourth Quiddity to help reforge its prison the gods harvest everyone moments before the world is devoured.

And the cycle continues until the gods, driven mad by the endless tragedy, one by one sacrifice themselves willingly into the Snarl's maw.

[Schroeswald]

But in a shocking twist, after Xykon and Redcloak are defeated, The Dark One no longer has any clerics able to cast level 9 spells. A short while later, the Snarl breaks free of the few remaining gates, and without the Fourth Quiddity to help reforge its prison the gods harvest everyone moments before the world is devoured.

And the cycle continues until the gods, driven mad by the endless tragedy, one by one sacrifice themselves willingly into the Snarl's maw.

Why would the Snarl break out of two open gates within a time called "a short while later" when three open gates have still left it in prison for over a year, and four for about a week.

[Squire Doodad]

Why would the Snarl break out of two open gates within a time called "a short while later" when three open gates have still left it in prison for over a year, and four for about a week.

The Snarl is set to come loose in about 3 months of course, in this new timeline it comes loose in a year and a half.

[Schroeswald]

The Snarl is set to come loose in about 3 months of course, in this new timeline it comes loose in a year and a half.

But why would it take a similar amount of time with two gates open than with four gates open?