What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

[Squire Doodad]

But why would it take a similar amount of time with two gates open than with four gates open?

Reasons
Good ones, too

[D.One]

But why would it take a similar amount of time with two gates open than with four gates open?

Because of the loose threads, of course. That situation was bound to unravel.

[Squire Doodad]

Because of the loose threads, of course. That situation was bound to unravel.

I feel the need to clarify that this situation has Miko hit the sapphire instead of Shojo, meaning its 3 gates vs 4.

[RatElemental]

I feel the need to clarify that this situation has Miko hit the sapphire instead of Shojo, meaning its 3 gates vs 4.

If Miko hits the sapphire instead of Shojo, Shojo dies in the explosion and we're back to the "Miko hits Shojo AND the sapphire" situation.

[D.One]

Since we are going with "What if", what if Shojo had Miko into the loop since ever? I mean, she had a huge devotion for him, so what if he had raised her as a personal agent, fully aware of his schemes e maneuvers.

[factotum]

Since we are going with "What if", what if Shojo had Miko into the loop since ever? I mean, she had a huge devotion for him, so what if he had raised her as a personal agent, fully aware of his schemes e maneuvers.

I think the problem there is that we've seen a young Miko in the O-Chul prequel story, and she:

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Kills her commander because he dishonoured himself by attempting to kill his enemy even after the legally accepted duel was over.

I don't think she'd have been up for scheming even from an early age.

[D.One]

I think the problem there is that we've seen a young Miko in the O-Chul prequel story, and she:

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Kills her commander because he dishonoured himself by attempting to kill his enemy even after the legally accepted duel was over.

I don't think she'd have been up for scheming even from an early age.

Well, she's clearly not beyond some law-breaking (aka "murdering her liege") in pursuit of her ideals. What I mean is, she may be delusional an katana-happy, but what if she had been raised as some sort of Shojo super-agent, fully aware of his disguise, and commited to the protection of the saphire.

She'd be a completely different character, but I think this is the point, isn't it?

[The MunchKING]

I think the problem there is that we've seen a young Miko in the O-Chul prequel story, and she:

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Kills her commander because he dishonoured himself by attempting to kill his enemy even after the legally accepted duel was over.

I don't think she'd have been up for scheming even from an early age.

I thought...

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She killed him because he tried to kill people unrelated to the duel...

SO it's less "He behaved dishonorably", although that was part of it, and more "Murdering random soldiers on our side to get at your target is not acceptable".

[Aquillion]

I think the problem there is that we've seen a young Miko in the O-Chul prequel story, and she:

Spoiler

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Kills her commander because he dishonoured himself by attempting to kill his enemy even after the legally accepted duel was over.

I don't think she'd have been up for scheming even from an early age.

I think she might have been somewhat conflicted, but she would have at least understood his argument - she wouldn't have thought he was a traitor. There's a huge difference between "dishonorable murder" and "ignoring your oaths for the greater good."

Also, by my reading we're talking about him bringing her into the loop even before that.

That said, this one is too hypothetical to really say anything about. Word of God implies Miko's problems were partially down to the way Shojo raised her, but we can't really know for certain how different she would have become. I don't think she'd have outright killed him, though. At worst she either exposes him or never becomes a Paladin in the first place.

[hamishspence]

Word of God implies Miko's problems were partially down to the way Shojo raised her, but we can't really know for certain how different she would have become.

Word of Author is also that Shojo's upbringing was responsible for a lot of what was good in Miko:

If anything, I attribute most of her positive traits to the way she was raised by Shojo and her subsequent membership in the Sapphire Guard. Which is not to say that he did a perfect job, but he recognized that she needed discipline in order to function, and gave her life meaning and purpose that it wouldn't have otherwise had. I've always felt that someone who had come to him with less underlying issues (whether due to her inherent personality or the trauma of losing her parents and getting sent to a monastery) could have been raised the same way and not turned out to be like Miko. Likewise, if Miko had never met Shojo, she probably would have left the monastery as an angry unstable loner with no purpose. Shojo's guidance was the tape that was held her together for so long, which is why she went to pieces when it was ripped off.

[Worldsong]

Word of Author is also that Shojo's upbringing was responsible for a lot of what was good in Miko:

I wasn't aware of that quote. So rather than saying that Shojo messed her up it's more accurate to say that Shojo's upbringing was generally good but combined poorly with some of Miko's personal issues he either wasn't aware of (or how deep they ran) or wasn't entirely sure how to handle since most people don't have them.

[hamishspence]

Pretty much. Probably his biggest mistake was calling her "special" and "Chosen":

Shojo dies because of a lifetime of lies and deceptions, the most important of which was telling a random orphan girl that she was Special and Chosen.

[Aquillion]

Now I'm tempted to make the question "what if Miko killed Shojo much, much earlier? Like, say, the very first time she met him?"

(I still think it's interesting to ask "what if Miko's leaps of logic were 100% factually correct and Shojo and the OOTS really were irredeemably evil monsters in league with Xykon." Does she still fall in that situation, presuming that, from her perspective, everything was exactly the same and her random leap of logic was just coincidentally right?)

[Squire Doodad]

Now I'm tempted to make the question "what if Miko killed Shojo much, much earlier? Like, say, the very first time she met him?"

(I still think it's interesting to ask "what if Miko's leaps of logic were 100% factually correct and Shojo and the OOTS really were irredeemably evil monsters in league with Xykon." Does she still fall in that situation, presuming that, from her perspective, everything was exactly the same and her random leap of logic was just coincidentally right?)

Your first question is essentially "what if Shojo was already dead when the Order reached Azure City", which is interesting.

The second scenario, while exceedingly speculative, still has her fall. Because she is still striking down her unarmed leige lord, even if he is evil he is still an unarmed civilian who has expressed no intent or desire to inflict harm in a way that Miko should be obligated to or even considering physical attack.

[Aquillion]

Your first question is essentially "what if Shojo was already dead when the Order reached Azure City", which is interesting.

Technically, would they even arrive at all? In this scenario Shojo died long before the plot ever happened. He never talks to Roy's dad, and never learns Roy exists. Presumably, since Hinjo is still a child when Shojo dies, a regent ends up on the throne instead - and given Azure City politics, Hinjo might meet an unfortunate accident. Either way, whether it's the regent or Hinjo in charge in the present timeframe, they probably don't summon Roy.

The second scenario, while exceedingly speculative, still has her fall. Because she is still striking down her unarmed leige lord, even if he is evil he is still an unarmed civilian who has expressed no intent or desire to inflict harm in a way that Miko should be obligated to or even considering physical attack.

I guess that depends on whether the Twelve Gods are consequentialist or deontological. Either way, though, evil!Roy and normal!Belkar probably take the opportunity to imprison or off her (and they would still be legitimately angry that she killed Shojo, their ally.) She has no proof, so they get off scot-free. Then Xykon arrives, and the OOTES betrays Azure City. Possibly Xykon captures the gate intact, but probably not (the OOTES can't prevent the Paladins from doing their thing, although if they're in the throne room their added support might be enough to beat them.) They may also be able to keep Miko from breaking the gate?

If she does break the gate, though... actually, things get really far afield now, because the Draketooths are there waiting at the next gate. So it's like the Xykon-vs-Draketooths fight above, but he has the OOTES with him.

[Squire Doodad]

Technically, would they even arrive at all? In this scenario Shojo died long before the plot ever happened. He never talks to Roy's dad, and never learns Roy exists. Presumably, since Hinjo is still a child when Shojo dies, a regent ends up on the throne instead - and given Azure City politics, Hinjo might meet an unfortunate accident. Either way, whether it's the regent or Hinjo in charge in the present timeframe, they probably don't summon Roy.

That's why its interesting XD

Let's assume Shojo dies some time before the events of the story, so you have an adult Hinjo who is competent and would have had a chance to investigate the Redmountain Gate. Maybe he dies during the Origin of PCs?

The question tends to become "how much is Hinjo like Shojo" and "how willing is Hinjo to break the rules (or bend them, at least) to save the world?". The answer is "probably bend them a little". Assuming Shojo told Hinjo all of the gate locations and about the monitoring device (there's probably one in a secret room behind Hinjo/Shojo/Soon's private quarters), then Hinjo might be inclined to send a round of scrying. From there, assuming Eugene goes to help, everything from there to Azure City goes normally, though I imagine Hinjo would send someone other than Miko and probably under the terms of "people who may have knowledge about the safety of our gate" as opposed to "bring them back, alive, for crime trying purposes". Azure City is where it gets complicated, because Hinjo is a paladin and on the Sapphire Guard: he is obligated to not request Roy and his team to help protect other gates. However, he could hypothetically request aid in his own gate. Essentially, the rest of the parts of the Sunken Valley bit could take place, but I'm not certain. Aside from that, it would boil down to Hinjo getting the Order to help in protecting the sapphire, which fortunately means that since Xykon invades Azure City this doesn't in of itself screw things over. Assuming Miko has already fallen (or at least doesn't kill Hinjo) then there are more questions of the battle itself, but I don't know that much about applying tactics to DnD to say anything concrete. Things would get more complicated past Azure City though.

For me I'd say the bottom line is "same story, different route": most of the necessary actions Shojo takes can be done in a manner that roughly works within the boundaries of a paladin of the Sapphire Guard, but the finer points of the story will vary significantly. A few other things, like Haley getting her voice back or Nale heading to the Western Continent might not work out the same way. However, the story up to Azure City will have roughly the same end result aside from maybe whether or not Azure City falls.

[factotum]

That's why its interesting XD

I'm not convinced it is. As soon as you talk about Shojo being killed years before the story opens, you change the world significantly, so anything you come up with is essentially going to be a different story. I mean, it's entirely possible that whoever replaced Shojo (probably *not* Hinjo, he'd be too young) would put all their efforts into hunting down the Crimson Mantle, and this time they'd at least do a Detect Evil on the Mantle itself and determine it's a powerful Evil artifact and destroy it. Who knows where that would leave the world?

[Squire Doodad]

I'm not convinced it is. As soon as you talk about Shojo being killed years before the story opens, you change the world significantly, so anything you come up with is essentially going to be a different story. I mean, it's entirely possible that whoever replaced Shojo (probably *not* Hinjo, he'd be too young) would put all their efforts into hunting down the Crimson Mantle, and this time they'd at least do a Detect Evil on the Mantle itself and determine it's a powerful Evil artifact and destroy it. Who knows where that would leave the world?

That's why I specifically said that its a scenario with an adult Hinjo. I didn't actually remember how old he is though, my bad. Let's say Shojo dies (random chance, not a coordinated assassination) a year before the story begins, or however long is needed for Hinjo to have stable power in Azure City and is not dead. Sound better?

[hroþila]

If Shojo dies and nothing else changes so that Hinjo finds himself in the same position as Shojo at the end of Dungeon Crawlin' Fools, then assuming he scries on the dungeon of Dorukan after the destruction of the gate, he doesn't trust Eugene and simply dismisses him. However, Hinjo would presumably still be obligated by Sapphire Guard law to arrest and prosecute those responsible for the gate's destruction - he'd just do it for real.

What happens next depends on how much of the trial (beyond the fact that it was rigged) was Shojo's doing and how much Hinjo would and could have changed the legal framework. I don't see him being happy with executing the Order given the circumstances (that Dorukan's gate had a self-destruct sigil at all would likely give him pause), and he's shown on panel that he can be flexible when it comes to justice and the spirit of the law. So I'm going to say he spares the Order, but probably sentences them to prison nonetheless. However, after the trial he'd know about Xykon even if he hadn't listened to Eugene, and he'd know he was going after the gates. Commuting their prison sentence for work seems perfectly likely, only their job wouldn't be to check on the other gates, but simply to fight Xykon.

Then Xykon and Redcloak come crashing, and Hinjo frees the Order if he hadn't before so that they can defend Azure City. And everything pretty much plays out the same from there, except that Miko clings to her sanity for a little longer. Assuming she didn't lose it way earlier in this timeline, of course, since she wouldn't have Shojo by her side.

[Squire Doodad]

If Shojo dies and nothing else changes so that Hinjo finds himself in the same position as Shojo at the end of Dungeon Crawlin' Fools, then assuming he scries on the dungeon of Dorukan after the destruction of the gate, he doesn't trust Eugene and simply dismisses him. However, Hinjo would presumably still be obligated by Sapphire Guard law to arrest and prosecute those responsible for the gate's destruction - he'd just do it for real.

What happens next depends on how much of the trial (beyond the fact that it was rigged) was Shojo's doing and how much Hinjo would and could have changed the legal framework. I don't see him being happy with executing the Order given the circumstances (that Dorukan's gate had a self-destruct sigil at all would likely give him pause), and he's shown on panel that he can be flexible when it comes to justice and the spirit of the law. So I'm going to say he spares the Order, but probably sentences them to prison nonetheless. However, after the trial he'd know about Xykon even if he hadn't listened to Eugene, and he'd know he was going after the gates. Commuting their prison sentence for work seems perfectly likely, only their job wouldn't be to check on the other gates, but simply to fight Xykon.

Then Xykon and Redcloak come crashing, and Hinjo frees the Order if he hadn't before so that they can defend Azure City. And everything pretty much plays out the same from there, except that Miko clings to her sanity for a little longer. Assuming she didn't lose it way earlier in this timeline, of course, since she wouldn't have Shojo by her side.

I like this take on it. Hinjo and Shojo both play more or less the same role, but in opposing styles. As such, the story ultimately is the same but with a couple key components somewhat shifted, but still similar enough to be evidently the derived from same story.

[CriticalFailure]

I don't see why the Draketooths would be more likely than the Sapphire Guard to defeat Team Evil. The Sapphire Guard's whole deal was smiting evil, and then rising from the dead to smite some more evil. Whereas the Draketooths' whole deal was illusions. It seems pretty likely that Girard's Gate would be the easiest and Soon's the toughest for the evil undead who's immune to mind affects and the evil cleric whose best save is presumably will.

[Squire Doodad]

I don't see why the Draketooths would be more likely than the Sapphire Guard to defeat Team Evil. The Sapphire Guard's whole deal was smiting evil, and then rising from the dead to smite some more evil. Whereas the Draketooths' whole deal was illusions. It seems pretty likely that Girard's Gate would be the easiest and Soon's the toughest for the evil undead who's immune to mind affects and the evil cleric whose best save is presumably will.

Lirian's is the easiest, because

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her whole shtick assumed someone wasn't undead and resistant to her main tactics.

The Draketooths presumably had layers and layers of protection meant to eventually cover anyone (though I imagine especially the paladins), so in theory Xykon would have an easier time with Girard than Soon, but it wouldn't be easy.

Knowing Girard, he's probably home-brewed a bunch of weird spells (Roy, the child of an illusionist, had never heard of anything like the ones Girard had set up) that target Charisma or Constitution or something and plenty that don't count as mind-affecting spells for various reasons (ex: the objects are real, but are heavily glamoured).

[CriticalFailure]

I don't get why we should assume Girard prepared for undead attackers when Lirian didn't and there's no evidence that Girard did.

[Squire Doodad]

I don't get why we should assume Girard prepared for undead attackers when Lirian didn't and there's no evidence that Girard did.

Girard is paranoid. He would prepare for everything; some things more than others, but anything possible he will prepare for. Anything probable (i.e. Undead used to counter his illusions) he will have plenty of preparations for. The irony is that his paranoia led to him not preparing for the one situation that could not happen in any plausible scenario: someone uses Familicide (rather, they cast a spell that specifically targets bloodlines and does not allow a feasible save) which then annihilates his entire family.

Besides, this whole thread is dedicated to theorizing on what would happen if a vital event happened differently. If you want to rely on evidence alone, you seem to have made quite the wrong turn at Albuquerque.

[CriticalFailure]

Girard is paranoid. He would prepare for everything; some things more than others, but anything possible he will prepare for. Anything probable (i.e. Undead used to counter his illusions) he will have plenty of preparations for. The irony is that his paranoia led to him not preparing for the one situation that could not happen in any plausible scenario: someone uses Familicide (rather, they cast a spell that specifically targets bloodlines and does not allow a feasible save) which then annihilates his entire family.

Besides, this whole thread is dedicated to theorizing on what would happen if a vital event happened differently. If you want to rely on evidence alone, you seem to have made quite the wrong turn at Albuquerque.

Girard's paranoia seemed to be primarily directed at his teammates at the time he was building his defenses. He was focusing on how to prevent Soon et al from coming over and dictating to him how to defend his Gate, not on covering every single possible situation. It's decently likely that his defenses wouldn't be well tailored to fight undead. Girard's illusions were his specialty thing, like the Guardian Virus was Lirian's. Obviously he, like Lirian, had other allies to fight against attackers, but it seemed to be implied that his specialty feature was just as weak against undead as Lirian's. Whereas Dorukan's specialty, the pure heart wards, actually held Xykon and Redcloak back effectively for quite a long time even after they successfully took his fortress, and Soon's specialty, the ghost martyrs bound by their oats to come back as positive energy spirits, came damn close to killing Xykon and Redcloak and destroying Xykon's phylactery - they were only stopped by a series of pretty unlikely (un)fortunate coincidences.

"Girard was paranoid" isn't a great reason to assume that Girard was an effective planner who was able to plot out strategies for every possible situation, especially since all of the decisions Girard made out of paranoia seemed to involve him creating gate defenses against his own teammates at the expense of overall effective defense.

[Schroeswald]

Girard's paranoia seemed to be primarily directed at his teammates at the time he was building his defenses. He was focusing on how to prevent Soon et al from coming over and dictating to him how to defend his Gate, not on covering every single possible situation. It's decently likely that his defenses wouldn't be well tailored to fight undead. Girard's illusions were his specialty thing, like the Guardian Virus was Lirian's. Obviously he, like Lirian, had other allies to fight against attackers, but it seemed to be implied that his specialty feature was just as weak against undead as Lirian's. Whereas Dorukan's specialty, the pure heart wards, actually held Xykon and Redcloak back effectively for quite a long time even after they successfully took his fortress, and Soon's specialty, the ghost martyrs bound by their oats to come back as positive energy spirits, came damn close to killing Xykon and Redcloak and destroying Xykon's phylactery - they were only stopped by a series of pretty unlikely (un)fortunate coincidences.

"Girard was paranoid" isn't a great reason to assume that Girard was an effective planner who was able to plot out strategies for every possible situation, especially since all of the decisions Girard made out of paranoia seemed to involve him creating gate defenses against his own teammates at the expense of overall effective defense.

Not planning for every possibility =/ not preparing magic that would work against dozens of creature types, if only vampires had any degree of intelligence maybe but we have seen several creature types have enough intelligence to do more than just scream "BRAAAAAAINS!" and I find Girard not thinking of the undead about as likely as him not thinking against goblinoids.

As for Lirian, while I haven't read SoD yet so I don't know her defenses, from what I gather her entire philosophy of defense is based on natural life, something that is completely unable to mount a defense against a high level undead (correct me if I'm wrong), while based on Girard's abilities he could reasonably be able to make some illusions against the undead or clerics with True Seeing.

[Squire Doodad]

Girard's paranoia seemed to be primarily directed at his teammates at the time he was building his defenses. He was focusing on how to prevent Soon et al from coming over and dictating to him how to defend his Gate, not on covering every single possible situation. It's decently likely that his defenses wouldn't be well tailored to fight undead. Girard's illusions were his specialty thing, like the Guardian Virus was Lirian's. Obviously he, like Lirian, had other allies to fight against attackers, but it seemed to be implied that his specialty feature was just as weak against undead as Lirian's. Whereas Dorukan's specialty, the pure heart wards, actually held Xykon and Redcloak back effectively for quite a long time even after they successfully took his fortress, and Soon's specialty, the ghost martyrs bound by their oats to come back as positive energy spirits, came damn close to killing Xykon and Redcloak and destroying Xykon's phylactery - they were only stopped by a series of pretty unlikely (un)fortunate coincidences.

"Girard was paranoid" isn't a great reason to assume that Girard was an effective planner who was able to plot out strategies for every possible situation, especially since all of the decisions Girard made out of paranoia seemed to involve him creating gate defenses against his own teammates at the expense of overall effective defense.

Girard, by virtue of canon speculation by the Order and the situation of his pyramid, had no allies we know of aside from a shopkeeper who trades specifically with them or something. It was a one family army, and
TDO wasn't much of an issue at the time; assuming the Order of the Scribble didn't have communication with Girard, I see no reason he wouldn't consider Undead a key thing. It's like a highly paraphrased adage: the best way to deal with weaknesses is to make them your strength. If someone knows you have illusions, and they know undead are resilient to them, then by having illusions which work on the undead, you can overcome that weakness and make it a strength.

I'm not sure why Girard seems to be some weak geezer who rambled conspiracy theories instead of planning a defense plan. We don't know the make up of his defenses, but because they were there at some point, the ones we did see were beyond anything Roy had heard of, and Girard's...unique mindset, while his downfall, was not in itself a major weakness tactically nor his only defense, then it seems compelling enough to say that Girard would have planned for more than just living humanoids.

Actually, while the illusions themselves might not be as effective, I'd almost be willing to bet that at least one section of the pyramid had traps meant to target undead (slicing blades, rain of holy water, trigger a turn undead amulet).

Also, I know its a typo, but the idea of Soon's ghosts being bound by their breakfast cereals and grains is hilarious XD

[Peelee]

Also, I know its a typo, but the idea of Soon's ghosts being bound by their breakfast cereals and grains is hilarious XD

Headcanon'd.

[RatElemental]

Girard, by virtue of canon speculation by the Order and the situation of his pyramid, had no allies we know of aside from a shopkeeper who trades specifically with them or something. It was a one family army, and
TDO wasn't much of an issue at the time; assuming the Order of the Scribble didn't have communication with Girard, I see no reason he wouldn't consider Undead a key thing. It's like a highly paraphrased adage: the best way to deal with weaknesses is to make them your strength. If someone knows you have illusions, and they know undead are resilient to them, then by having illusions which work on the undead, you can overcome that weakness and make it a strength.

We do know that Malack and Durkon* seem to have shrugged off microcosm, which was the big grand daddy spell Girard apparently custom researched for his gate defense.

[Squire Doodad]

WE do know that Malack and Durkon* seem to have shrugged off microcosm, which was the big grand daddy spell Girard apparently custom researched for his gate defense.

Good point.
Although come to think of it, we see Z also awake and functional in the same panel. There's also little indication to suggest anything about how long they are in there; while they came into the chamber not too long after the Order, they could have entered the runes simultaneously (or, more likely, they entered a short bit after the Order and woke up more quickly on account of them more readily recognizing their situation). For all we know, that spell took them ALL out but not for as long as the Order, possibly because the Order would be more easily contented with their dreams than an enthralled vampire spawn, a fully fledged vampire who knows his dreams will take a very, very long time, and an elf who...I don't even know what. We still haven't gotten anything too good from Z. Nale is a whole other issue.

The "tied up for an hour" bit sounds like it could be a sign that they were only in there for a few minutes, but given how complex Nale's plans are it could have translated to several days of complex execution and planning, and that's assuming Nale didn't kill Malack and Tarquin in his dream first. And he'd probably have..."spent time with" Sabine in his dream, so to speak.