The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!)

[Elves]

A full turn as an immediate action COULD be interesting, but that seems like a full on Expert Tactic, and you don't get those til about level... 16? But I could work with it; I'll file it away for later. Thanks. The bullet time in the Matrix was weird because it was JUST moving really fast at first, but Neo gained more control and went from... what... super solider to reality warper, so it's a little difficult to tell at times.

Here's another way - Boost that lasts 3 rounds, for the duration you can spend an immediate action to use a movement technique and make a single shot or unarmed attack, but the effects of the attack don't resolve until 1 round later.

EDIT: Is this the most recent version? Both of the links in the OP lead to the 2007 version.

Make sure you're looking at the Discipline Directory in post 4. Added a note in red to make it more obvious.

That doesn't include the feats though so that feedback is still valuable.

For Oncoming Storm, rewrite should focus on 3 things: parries, Sleight of Hand techniques, and stunting duelist strikes.

-----

Open call for name suggestions for Poet disciplines. Anything themed on song, voice, fantasy, inspiration, dreams, performance or imagination could fit. Currently we have Divine Muse and Silver Tongue.

Decided against renaming the class Jester because then it would have to be funny.

[D&D_Fan]

Poet huh.
Hmm. Here's what I got:

Maybe an Envoy who could have great charisma as a Diplomat, but also be a skilled combatant when the time comes.

There could also be an Combat Celebrity. Basically just a WWE fighter but for medieval sports. You are a great performer, but you still know how to duel or joust or whatever it is you do.

The Way of the Forceful Word is an ancient tradition that allows it's practicioners to bend others to their will by dominating feeble minds and using sound as a powerful weapon.

Comprehenders understand the language of reality and can write it with pen or blade.

Rune Poet just a poet that writes with magical runes.

Would any of these work?

[D&D_Fan]

I had a really good idea for a Poet discipline.
A poet who is linked to Archaeology.
They can draw mystical power from ancient texts.
Speaker of the Ancients.

[Primal Fury]

One of the biggest reasons I think Gun-Fu should be class-agnostic is the effect in can have on a party as they adventure together; the gunslinger can, and should, take the time to teach their allies some basic tactics that are particularly useful to them. Are you a front-line fighter or a monk? Here's some CQC tactics. Are you a rogue or a wizard? Here's some Run & Gun to help with tactical positioning. Bonus points if your wizard is using the Spellslinger archetype from Pathfinder. It's just a really neat idea, but is it busted?

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Open call for name suggestions for Poet disciplines. Anything themed on song, voice, fantasy, inspiration, dreams, performance or imagination could fit. Currently we have Divine Muse and Silver Tongue.

I think "Traveler's Song" works well, and not just because it's a reference to a song I like (which is also pretty on theme for a Poet).

"Ethereal Melody"

"Chorus of Echoes"

There's got to be a pun to be made on 'earworms', songs that get stuck in your head.

Something to do with lucid dreaming. "Lucid Fancy"? "Lucid Reverie"? "Lucid Rhapsody"?

[D&D_Fan]

I have had some time to think, and of the suggestions I made, I refined them.

Diplomatic Envoy - formerly Envoy. As a diplomatic envoy, your job is to negotiate and resolve tension, and get the party out of tough situations. That said, as a diplomatic envoy, you can still hold hold your own in combat, though 1v1 duels may be more your speed.

Celebrity - formerly Combat Celebrity. As a celebrity, you get by on fame and just enough skill to back it up. As a celebrity, you specialize in acting, stunts, and maintaining an image. As a player you advance from D-list to A-list, and become a worldwide sensation!

Speaker of the Ancients - formerly the original version, Rune Poet. Speakers of the Ancients are Paleographers who have found themselves blessed or cursed by ancient powers, and act as a conduit. They can comprehend ancient languages, and use ancient runes that have been lost to time. They understand traps in dungeon settings as well as the average rogue. They are experts in history that has yet to be uncovered by the wider world. Unfortunately, like a paladin, warlock, or cleric, their power can be lost if they disobey the powers they speak for.

Thoughts? Are any of these AoW material?

[PoeticallyPsyco]

For Oncoming Storm, rewrite should focus on 3 things: parries, Sleight of Hand techniques, and stunting duelist strikes.

I feel like the Oncoming Storm discipline has a bit of an identity problem. The fluff is of a rogue-like discipline, like The Silent in Slay the Spire, sneaky and underhanded; a lot of the maneuvers have the aesthetics of iaijutsu quick-draws; and it's also supposed to be the discipline of stylish/flamboyant fighters like Swashbucklers. OTOH, that's actually pretty appropriate for what's supposed to be a discipline created piecemeal out of a variety of styles and techniques after the fall of the school of nine swords.

Anyway, onto my (rough) ideas for maneuvers.

Spoiler: Swirling Cloak

Show

What's something that unites skulking back-alley rogues and flamboyant swashbucklers? Dramatic cloaks/capes, obviously.

Swirling Cloak
Oncoming Storm (Counter)
Level: 7
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Trigger: You are attacked
Target: ? (Should this be "You" or "Triggering creature"?)

A swirl of your cloak; a step to the side. Your opponent, distracted and no longer sure exactly where you stand, misses his strike, and you are poised to take advantage.

Make a special Feint versus the opponent, using Sleight of Hand instead of Bluff; your opponent may oppose this check with their choice of Spot or Sense Motive. You do not take a penalty on this check for your opponent being nonhumanoid or nonintelligent. If you beat their roll, in addition to the benefits of a Feint (see the Bluff skill), your opponent misses their attack and you may make a 5-foot-step. You also no longer count as observed by them for determining whether you can hide, until the start of your next turn.

(Not sure about that last clause, honestly. I do like the idea of using the distraction as an opportunity to hide rather than as an opportunity to strike, but it feels clunky.) Level 7 seems appropriate, as this makes a counterpart to Magpie Parry, using Feint instead of Disarm.

Spoiler: Grand Finale

Show

Grand Finale
Oncoming Storm (boost)
Level: 9
Initiation Action: 1 full-round action
Range: Personal
Target: You

Your opponent is already dead, even if they don't know it yet. Now the only thing left to do is pose for the crowd.

All damage dealt by you this turn is doubled.

This is intended to work with the many OS maneuvers that do damage the following round (as well as the Storm Ambush feat), rewarding a careful set-up. Outside of that perfect set-up, though, it may be too weak for a 9th level maneuver; maybe include that you also recover all expended maneuvers. It's also improved once Dual Strike comes online for Swashbucklers. Actually, perhaps it's the x2 value that's too low, since there's no benefit over just doing the same thing you did last turn again; perhaps x2.5 or even tripling would be more appropriate.

Spoiler: Storm of Steel

Show

Inspired by the Silent card of the same name, which lets you discard your whole hand and replace them with 0 cost shivs.

I have two ideas for how this could go. The first is staying true to the original card; you expend all your maneuvers and make an attack at full BAB for every maneuver expended. This one's interesting because it scales as you level, but is potentially too strong even for a high-level maneuver. Maybe all the attacks do half damage (including precision damage)?

The second, and probably better, idea is that the number of attacks you make is based on a Sleight of Hand skill check. Perhaps a number of attacks equal to your roll/5? I'm also tempted to add a restriction that each attack has to be made with a different weapon, drawn as part of the attack.

This one obviously needs some refinement; I'm open to suggestions.

EDIT: If any of these get approved, I'll stat them up in the Google Docs templates.

[Primal Fury]

Diplomatic Envoy - *snip*

Celebrity - *snip*

Speaker of the Ancients - *snip*

Thoughts? Are any of these AoW material?

These SOUND neat, but do they really belong here? The Envoy and the Celebrity seem, at first glance, more akin to the face of a party with only a supportive or disruptive role in combat. And the Speaker of the Ancients just sounds like a class that uses Truename magic. What would they do that makes them fit the "warrior" archetype?

Also, I think I have how I want bullet time to work. Like the target lock it would be a mechanic independent of tactics, and would do the following at the indicated levels.

• From BAB +1 to +5 it would grant the Haste effect for a single round. In addition to this, the you would be moving so quickly that opponents would be unable to make attacks of opportunity against you, or have their readied actions triggered by the your actions. You also gain a special dodge that you can use against attacks as an immediate action, reducing any damage you would take by half (rounded down).
  
• From BAB +6 to +9, you gain an additional immediate action per turn, and the ability to take a move action or use a Blitz tactic as an immediate action. In addition to this, your speed increases once more; any target you attempt to effect during your turn operates as though they are under a Slow effect, and any creature that tries to effect you operates the same. The only difference is that their movement speed is not reduced.
  
• From BAB +10 to +14, you gain yet another immediate action, and the ability to take standard actions or use Burst tactics as immediate actions.
  
• Finally, once you reach +15 BAB, you gain one more immediate action, and the ability to take a full-round action as an immediate action, though only if you sacrifice two immediate action to do it.

[Elves]

I feel like the Oncoming Storm discipline has a bit of an identity problem.

We’re using it as the swashbuckler discipline so the question is about what abilities swash should get to choose from.

I just saw this swash fix that I thought had an amazing idea: give them “dueling” bonuses when they’re adjacent to a single opponent. This means they have a mechanical reason not to use reach weapons, and gives them appropriate tactics: loners, trying not to get surrounded, trying to get 1-on-1. I want to rewrite the whole class around this idea, because right now it seems seriously off.

So clearly Oncoming will need some abilities to serve that gimmick — and 5 ft steps and other forms of footwork are ideal for getting out of crowds so you can get your dueling bonuses.

As far as thematic clash, quick draws and finesse of hand seem to fit very well with dirty dueling tactics.

Those are some cool maneuver ideas. The 9th I would make 8th. Will add them in. Proper oncoming storm revision is contingent on a finished swash.

Honestly, a number of the PRCs are great, but I strongly dislike the state all of the base classes are in right now (the 4 new ones and the 3 reduxes). Animist is the only one where although it’s off, I’m confident that it’s based on a good idea. You don’t have to go read it, I’m just saying this because the base classes are the main remaining obstacle — them and their unique disciplines. The rest is just a lot of odds and ends.

Also, I think I have how I want bullet time to work.

Too complicated. The level changes are excessive. Also, effects don’t feel unique (though I realize we get locked into a pattern of eroding novelty).

[Primal Fury]

Too complicated. The level changes are excessive. Also, effects don’t feel unique (though I realize we get locked into a pattern of eroding novelty).

It's a bit difficult to do something novel with bullet time, as it's just moving REALLY fast.

I'll stick with a Haste effect that allows the gunslinger to ignore the attacks of opportunities and readied actions of others, and grant an extra immediate action at BAB levels +5, +10, and +15. Actually... that means this effect is more defensive than anything else... allowing you more opportunities to use your Braces to defend you and your allies. I like that. Target lock is an offensive ability that isn't as strong, but can last as long as you want it to, while bullet time is incredibly powerful, but must be used sparingly to maximize its benefit.

The only thing I'm not sure about is the duration and the limiting factor. One round? Once an encounter? Once a day? A number of times per day equal to X?

[D&D_Fan]

These SOUND neat, but do they really belong here? The Envoy and the Celebrity seem, at first glance, more akin to the face of a party with only a supportive or disruptive role in combat. And the Speaker of the Ancients just sounds like a class that uses Truename magic. What would they do that makes them fit the "warrior" archetype?

Warrior. Hmm.
What about a Warrior Skald discipline? A Skald is a composer and reciter of poems honoring heroes and their deeds.
It would be like a heroic combat based bard that also knows cool lore.
Would this fit the bill for Warrior theme?

[Primal Fury]

And the Skald would most likely use those martial disciplines that involve assisting their allies, like the White Raven. That sounds better, yeah.

[D&D_Fan]

I think of it as a combination of the lore bard, the valor bard and blade bard from 5e at least thematically, since it would be able to buff allies, fight, and have useful knowledge.

[Elves]

Those are fine ideas but it sounds like you're talking about 5e subclasses, not Tome of Battle disciplines. Have you read Tome of Battle?

[D&D_Fan]

I am talking thematically.
Not necessarily mechanically.
Even then some ideas can be brought backwards.
I would read ToB right now but I can’t.

[Primal Fury]

Would anyone mind throwing some cool gun-shooty ideas at me? I've got PLENTY of offensive tactics outlined, but I'm running a little low on defensive and movement tactics. Much of the inspiration out there seems to focus more on just taking cover and shooting rather than movement and dedicated defense.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Would anyone mind throwing some cool gun-shooty ideas at me? I've got PLENTY of offensive tactics outlined, but I'm running a little low on defensive and movement tactics. Much of the inspiration out there seems to focus more on just taking cover and shooting rather than movement and dedicated defense.

Shooting enemies' weapons out of their hands as a defensive disarm is pretty iconic. A higher level version of the same thing would be shooting incoming projectiles and spells out of the air.

EDIT: Something with a rain of shell casings providing concealment could make for a very flavorful mid- or high-level effect. Probably an extra affect alongside an attack maneuver to justify where all the shells are coming from (or maybe a counter/boost that can only be used after a full-attack).

[D&D_Fan]

As a defense thing, you could shoot a bullet to knock another projectile away.
Pretty supernatural.
That’s about it that I can come up with.

[Primal Fury]

Okay... that didn't really go anywhere. Let me try this: What sorts of characters to do think of when you hear the word "gunslinger"? More specifically, who are some progressively more impressive gunslingers? As a matter of fact, I'll make it even easier: Who are some amazing marksmen? While I'm looking for guns more than anything, being a good marksman can transfer quite well. Here's what I have so far.

For Fundamental tactics, it's already fairly obvious; the best place to look is at exceptionally talented soldiers. It's easy to imagine a real person pulling off these kinds of feats. Heck, even low level bullet time is possible considering how people sometimes describe their responses to high stress situations. It also explains what novice gunslingers will likely be called to do to continue their training--that is, being part of various military organizations, possibly even acting as mercenaries. It makes sense that, because this is possible for talented people, a relatively down to earth character should be the one we look to. I would say that... John Wick and Big Boss are both characters that would fit this level of power.

Intermediate tactics are... conceptually possible. It is feasible that someone, somewhere in the world MIGHT be capable of this. For example, there are those out there than can cut BB pellets with swords after they've been fired; it's rare, sure, but it's possible. Using this reasoning, it might also be possible to shoot a bullet out of the air. It's VERY rare, but that has happened before, though only by accident. Given how rare it is, we can likely relegate this level of skill to action movie heroes, like Hawk Eye from the MCU or John Preston from Equilibrium.

Advanced tactics are... I'm not sure. A step beyond conceptually possible would likely be impossible to perform without superhuman characteristics. Curving bullets? Shots from unreasonable distances? Shooting a supernatural effect off of someone? Shooting through thick or multiple walls?

Expert tactics are... You'd be hard pressed to convince a person that this ISN'T magic. Not merely curving bullets, but having bullets do THIS to people.

Here's where I'm stuck. Who is better than the characters I mentioned? How much better are they?

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Hmm... I think what often sets the heroes of a gunslinging action movie or game apart from the villains and mooks (in addition to moral fiber, naturally), is that they'll often use guns to affect their environment rather than just shooting their opponents. Shoot a chandelier to drop it on their foes, knock something over to create a bridge for themselves or block their enemies, ricochet a bullet off a bunch of stuff (or even a bunch of enemies!), hit a steam vent to create cover, and of course shoot a barrel of gunpowder/inexplicably explosive fuel. I've actually been working on an Oncoming Storm boost designed to replicate that environmental traversal. For the others, perhaps a maneuver where you shoot something in the environment to create an improvised AOE, and a maneuver that hits enemies even with total cover/concealment as long as you know what square they're in.

Quick-draws are also iconic, at least for Western gunslinging. Perhaps a counter that adds your initiator level to your initiative and can be used even while flatfooted (meaning it can be used at the start of the combat, before you act). Or if you want to make it less dip-friendly, multiple maneuvers spread out over the levels that give progressively better initiative bonuses.

Shooting weapons out of enemies' hands is a must. That could either be a strike (probably making a full attack of disarms) or a counter (a single disarm; if it works their attack automatically misses). For the counter version, you could also probably modify it to work against natural attacks, only without the disarm, obviously. The counter is analogous to a 7th level Oncoming Storm maneuver, but honestly I think that one should probably be bumped down to 6th level, so that's what I'd make this maneuver.

[Elves]

Sounds like you should compress expert and advanced into one since they both represent ultra super. Then your tiers are basically realistic > superhuman > supernatural. That matches maneuver level divisions of 1-3, 4-6, and 7-9, which does match with level 6 being the limit of "realistic". But it's underwhelming for your Ultimates to come online at level 13, so sure, add a fourth tier at level 19 but make it just one or two maneuvers.

Since you're posting in this thread, I'm wondering, is this subsystem something you want to be included in the book? I don't think it would fit as an "additional layer" system like you intend. Or are you just posting it here for convenience?

[Primal Fury]

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I'm realizing it probably would work better as a class by itself. I was trying to make something like Bladecraft, but even that is tightly geared toward specific classes, and this is even moreso. SO much so, that it might just make a mess if you try to staple it onto another class. I don't think it would quite work as a discipline either, given how extensive these different abilities are and how they're intended to be used during combat. If I can make it into a base class, would you want it as part of the Age of Warriors project?

As for compressing Advanced and Expert, that certainly would fix some issues I'm having at the moment, so I'll look at what I've got and consider how I would make that work.

[Elves]

Doing some really quick rough mockups of different cover options (example) -- and man it's difficult to find hinges and corners that work. 🙈 The ones there are ripped from the actual cover of a 3e book, but can't really use those in the final product.

These are the best corners I can find so far. That site has a promo deal where you can download a free image if you sign up; if someone wants to sign up, download the TIFF of those and then cancel the sub, I would not say no. (I already used mine for something else we need -- it says "20 free downloads" but only the first isn't watermarked).

[Elves]

If I can make it into a base class, would you want it as part of the Age of Warriors project?

Very possibly. If it were framed as a remake of the PF gunslinger, that would bring us to 4 base classes and 4 remake classes. Alternately, like I mentioned, it could be done as a swordsage "gunsage" variant.

Barring a class, the maneuvers can be ported into Black Rain -- this is with your system still being separate from AOW. In that case you could have all of its stances available at 1st level, give them each a unique trigger condition under which you can enter the stance as a free action instead of a swift action, then give different maneuvers "perks" for being in a specific one of those stances, like your original plan was.

But that does get complex and maybe too different from other disciplines for no reason.

If doing this as a base class, a big question is how to avoid frontloading, since effectively getting 4 stances at 1st level is a little much. The need to account for stuff like that is one of the limitations of 3e's open multiclassing.

[Primal Fury]

I think I'll go with remaking the Gunslinger. It... has too many moving parts to be made into a discipline, and I'd hate to have to break it down from what it currently is.

If doing this as a base class, a big question is how to avoid frontloading, since effectively getting 4 stances at 1st level is a little much. The need to account for stuff like that is one of the limitations of 3e's open multiclassing.

That's a good point... I'm not sure how to fix that. Gaining the patterns as you level doesn't feel quite right. Maybe... starting with all patterns, but no tactics, gaining them as you level? That feels better considering you need the patterns active in order for the tactics to work, but you don't necessarily need tactics for the patterns to work on their own.

[D&D_Fan]

Gunslinger sounds good, but are the rules for firearms going to be the same?

[Elves]

Gaining the patterns as you level doesn't feel quite right.

On the other hand, if I think about a 1st level character learning to play this class, having to memorize all 4 patterns from the get-go is a high barrier to entry. Personally I would space it out so that you learn 1 per level for the first 4 levels, or something similar to that.

I think I'll go with remaking the Gunslinger.

And there are valid reasons to remake it, too. The Grit-Deeds mechanic, like a lot of PF's "point pools", seems a little bit annoying to track and a maneuver system could be a better experience. Meanwhile, the other half of their class abilities are just bonus feats which is kind of lazy.

Gunslinger sounds good, but are the rules for firearms going to be the same?

Pathfinder makes guns into ranged touch attacks, though I read that in the first draft of their gun rules, guns would instead ignore a certain amount of armor/natural armor when rolling to hit. So you could do that, and give guns a "penetration" value -- penetration 5 means you ignore 5 points of armor or natural armor, or 5 points of each (depending on whether double dipping is allowed). But for abstraction's sake it may be fine to stick with DMG rules -- remember the average IRL person has 3 to 10 hit points, so they're going to be dead either way.

Primal, it's up to you if you want to do the armor penetration thing or just roll with DMG stats.

[Primal Fury]

This class would be rather limited in what kind of setting you could play it in, as it pretty much REQUIRES access to modern firearms. Given that you need access to semiautomatic and automatic firearms.

Also. Tactics are being renamed to Deeds, the three levels of which or Great (formerly Fundamental), Daring (Intermediate), and Prodigious (Advanced/Expert).

Deeds are powered by Grit, but given how much you'd be using these Deeds, you'd need more Grit than usual, so that will be higher.

There's also Desperate Acts that you get access to when you run out of Grit, helping you get some of it back, but deactivating once you get st least one point of Grit.

Finally, I need a new name for patterns; anyone ha e any ideas?

[D&D_Fan]

If the gun rules are different can I add my futuristic weapons rework then?
It is a rework now.
Also, still probably compatible.

[Primal Fury]

You know I hadn't considered it... but maybe I can branch out here, adding Deeds to take advantage of shotguns, explosives, and maybe even energy weapons. If I did, then those futuristic weapons might work pretty well.