Joker

[Telonius]

I dont approve. The Joker isnt supposed to have an origin story. The only way this could possibly work is if its like, three movies in one. Three different origins, no way to tell for sure which is real, or indeed, if any of them are. Its one of his defining characteristics that his past is a mystery. Not even batman is able to figure out for sure who he is or where he came from or how he became the joker. I would REALLY like it if we had three different short origins here. Very different ones. Go with the keaten verse style joker, this version, then something else. Make this version the last story and after each one we see he is telling this to another psychologist, after this one we see this is the joker talking to dr quinzel, its the start of his seduction/mind games with her. A great way to tie him into the soon to be rebooted suicide squad universe.

If they wanted to be really brave they'd do it Clue-style, and release different endings to different theaters; then sit back and watch chaos envelope the internet as all of the fans argue over which one is canon.

[Cikomyr]

I just wish they don't make the Joker too sympathetic.

He should be.. A monster

[ArlEammon]

I just wish they don't make the Joker too sympathetic.

He should be.. A monster

He can be both.

[Traab]

If they wanted to be really brave they'd do it Clue-style, and release different endings to different theaters; then sit back and watch chaos envelope the internet as all of the fans argue over which one is canon.

That would be so epic and easy to arrange considering the stranglehold control the studios have over what the theater gets. The funny thing is, something that innovative would likely cause an explosion in popularity if it was done well. (It wont matter if they have 20 versions if they all stink) It would be daring, and innovative, and cause all sorts of word of mouth and interest. So much discussion behind the meaning of the multiple versions would help to increase its renown and give it a real base to work from for future films. And it would be the perfect way to display the "origin" of the joker. Its all a mystery, and to him its all a joke.

[Wraith]

I was wary of a Joker movie. I was firmly in the camp that said, explaining too much about the Joker would damage his mystique, and that he's better off just being a monstrous force of nature, rather some schmuck driven insane by losing his job, getting kicked out of his apartment and having one too many arguments with his neighbour.

But then a friend pointed out to me: This could be DC's version of Falling Down, and all of a sudden I am completely behind that idea if it's done well, and the trailer looks like it could be done VERY well. I remain cautiously optimistic.

And it would be the perfect way to display the "origin" of the joker. Its all a mystery, and to him its all a joke.

Another thing that the same friend suggested, is that the whole movie could be set as the Joker telling his story in flashback to some wretched victim, but we only find that out at the very end of the movie when he turns to his next victim and starts telling a different story - playing up the "multiple choices" aspect that Heath Ledger's Joker made so popular. Either form would be great, or even both - DC's take on Rashemen to tell a DC take on Falling Down. There's a lot of ways they could go with this to make it really good.

[Traab]

I was wary of a Joker movie. I was firmly in the camp that said, explaining too much about the Joker would damage his mystique, and that he's better off just being a monstrous force of nature, rather some schmuck driven insane by losing his job, getting kicked out of his apartment and having one too many arguments with his neighbour.

But then a friend pointed out to me: This could be DC's version of Falling Down, and all of a sudden I am completely behind that idea if it's done well, and the trailer looks like it could be done VERY well. I remain cautiously optimistic.



Another thing that the same friend suggested, is that the whole movie could be set as the Joker telling his story in flashback to some wretched victim, but we only find that out at the very end of the movie when he turns to his next victim and starts telling a different story - playing up the "multiple choices" aspect that Heath Ledger's Joker made so popular. Either form would be great, or even both - DC's take on Rashemen to tell a DC take on Falling Down. There's a lot of ways they could go with this to make it really good.

Dont get me wrong, I loved Falling Down. I was young when I watched it but its still stuck in my head a couple decades later, but while there is an appeal to seeing how that "one bad day" can break anyone, I just feel like the Joker shouldnt be demystified like this. A large part of him is the mystery, we all know the general background of people like two face, or poison ivy. Their backgrounds are what motivate them against batman and gotham as a whole. The joker is just chaos made flesh. He is out for the lulz and he finds some awful things funny. His background doesnt matter because we arent supposed to relate to him like we do harvey dent, or pamela isley, or harley quinn. He isnt supposed to have a justification for his behavior. (Im not claiming the others are blameless because of their motivation, im just saying they have a reason to be as they are)

[Blackhawk748]

New trailer is here.

Well, that makes me rather optimistic about that movie.

I was catuois when I heard this, but I like the direction they seem to be going. Phoenix looks like the joker, he's got the long and very expressive face and his hair is styled just right. So that makes me happy. On top of this, the guy can do a pretty good crazy laugh.

And to cap it all off they seem to be going with the "One Bad Day" style of Joker with the costuming seeming to be from The Animated Series, which makes me very, very happy as I've always considered it to be his best costume. Kinda miss the hat he used to wear though.

All in all I'm actually reasonably optimistic about this one, looks like they have a good actor with a solid director behind this if the trailer is anything to go by.

Edit: Can I get a MR. Freeze movie up in here please?

[Calemyr]

Worth noting that they could easily do a multiple choice past with one simple post credits scene: a psychologist (Harleen Quinzel?) is consulting with the Joker, with the movie presented as the story he told the psychologist (not unlike Iron Man 3 being a story Tony was telling to Bruce). Psychologist then notes with a mixture of amusement and frustration: "Funny, that's not the story you told the last guy." Joker grins audaciously at the camera and cut to black.

[Olinser]

Worth noting that they could easily do a multiple choice past with one simple post credits scene: a psychologist (Harleen Quinzel?) is consulting with the Joker, with the movie presented as the story he told the psychologist (not unlike Iron Man 3 being a story Tony was telling to Bruce). Psychologist then notes with a mixture of amusement and frustration: "Funny, that's not the story you told the last guy." Joker grins audaciously at the camera and cut to black.

They've already said this Joker movie is not in the 'main' DCEU universe, so we actually are at multiple choice past. This one is different from Suicide Squad, which they've already explicitly said is different from Dark Knight joker.

[Calemyr]

So rather than multiple choice pasts, we've got multiple choice Jokers?

[Fyraltari]

Isn't that what's going on in the comics at the moment?

[Dragonus45]

Isn't that what's going on in the comics at the moment?

I don’t think they ever properly followed up on that.

[The Glyphstone]

They've already said this Joker movie is not in the 'main' DCEU universe, so we actually are at multiple choice past. This one is different from Suicide Squad, which they've already explicitly said is different from Dark Knight joker.

At this point I'm wondering if Suicide Squad 2 will be in the same universe as Suicide Squad 1 - it's confirmed as 'not a sequel'. The only returning Squad members will be Margot Robbie's Harley Quinn and Jai Courtney's Captain Boomerang, though at least they are keeping Viola Davis as Amanda Waller.

[Traab]

At this point I'm wondering if Suicide Squad 2 will be in the same universe as Suicide Squad 1 - it's confirmed as 'not a sequel'. The only returning Squad members will be Margot Robbie's Harley Quinn and Jai Courtney's Captain Boomerang, though at least they are keeping Viola Davis as Amanda Waller.

Its being called basically a reboot. So its like how the first trilogy of spiderman movies is not official to the marvel universe. Im thinking of it like them saying, "Sorry, that one was a mulligan, here is suicide squad for realsies this time"

*EDIT* Btw, I still think that if DC wants a cinematic universe, they might want to consider doing the reverse of marvel. Instead of putting together the justice league, they should focus on the bad guys. We dont see batman solving the mystery and coming up with a plan, we see the joker running his scheme start to finish only to have batman bust through the skylight and thwart him. We dont see superman trying to track down lex luthors latest scheme, we see luthor running the scheme, making his under the table military deal then authorizing the use of his mech suit to fight superman when he shows up to ruin things. I think making bad guy centric films would be enough of a difference to give dc something unique. Its not like you cant go with the league of villains route either. Its hardly unknown to the dc comics for bad guys to link up in various stories. It could even get really in depth in a single setting. After all, luthor has partnered with multiple members of supermans rogues gallery, braniac, parasite, metallo, the list goes on.

[GloatingSwine]

Isn't that kind of the idea Sony were going to do but with Spider-Man villains, whilst Spidey is in the MCU?


Anyway, I'm not so sure I buy into the idea that a Joker movie that provides an origin story necessarily "demystifies" the Joker because it isn't an attempt to present a definitive "this is the real Joker" story.

It's a Joker, and we've had four cinematic Jokers now including this one*, all different, all highly memorable, and three of them even for the right reason.

This is not likely to supplant other Jokers as the "real" one, because Joker is one of the most variably presented characters in cinema and TV. Moreso even than Batman himself.



* Seven if you count the animated one, the one in Gotham, and the old TV series one.

[Traab]

Isn't that kind of the idea Sony were going to do but with Spider-Man villains, whilst Spidey is in the MCU?


Anyway, I'm not so sure I buy into the idea that a Joker movie that provides an origin story necessarily "demystifies" the Joker because it isn't an attempt to present a definitive "this is the real Joker" story.

It's a Joker, and we've had four cinematic Jokers now including this one*, all different, all highly memorable, and three of them even for the right reason.

This is not likely to supplant other Jokers as the "real" one, because Joker is one of the most variably presented characters in cinema and TV. Moreso even than Batman himself.



* Seven if you count the animated one, the one in Gotham, and the old TV series one.

Too be fair we also got an origin for the keaton joker with his whole being a gangster, falling into the vat, etc. It wasnt a COMPREHENSIVE back story, but it was more than we usually get.

[Lemmy]

I expected nothing good from this movie... But the trailer actually got me interested.

DCEU is kinda getting a "soft reboot" anyway, so it's good thing to see Letto's joker gone.

[Jothki]

I've assumed that the reason that the Joker doesn't have an origin story is that his actual origin is actually kind of pathetic, and he's doing his whole "everything is a joke" shtick as a defense mechanism for his inability to cope with the person he was (as well as the person he's become).

[ArlEammon]

I've assumed that the reason that the Joker doesn't have an origin story is that his actual origin is actually kind of pathetic, and he's doing his whole "everything is a joke" shtick as a defense mechanism for his inability to cope with the person he was (as well as the person he's become).

imho, the thing with The Joker being an actual sympathetic, or at least pitiable figure is that although we do feel sorry for him, we know there is no excuse for his behavior, so it's even more tragic.

[Lacuna Caster]

The Joker worked because we were in the eyes of a mobster drawn to the Joker's charisma, and it peeled through the layers of Joker's monstrocity. First making him seem like a normal thuggish crime lord, then we see him ruthlessly killing those that betrayed him, then by the time Joker has gone full psycho where he murders innocents just to sleep on their corpses the main character is in too deep.

I was wary of a Joker movie. I was firmly in the camp that said, explaining too much about the Joker would damage his mystique, and that he's better off just being a monstrous force of nature, rather some schmuck driven insane by losing his job, getting kicked out of his apartment and having one too many arguments with his neighbour.

But then a friend pointed out to me: This could be DC's version of Falling Down, and all of a sudden I am completely behind that idea if it's done well, and the trailer looks like it could be done VERY well. I remain cautiously optimistic.

The Killing Joke is terrible and I pretty much hate the "One Bad Day" conception of the Joker's origins. (Mostly because it's a lie- psychopathy is around 70% driven by genetic factors.)

With that said, there's no reason, in principle, why Lee and Azzarello's Joker couldn't work on the big screen. "To mock you" would probably get a terrific delivery.

[Frozen_Feet]

Is Joker a psychopath, though? Comic book characters are only marginally more plausible psychologically than they are physically.

[Beer Baron]

Too bad all the DC movies in recent years have sucked tremendously.

[Lacuna Caster]

Is Joker a psychopath, though? Comic book characters are only marginally more plausible psychologically than they are physically.

Granted, but in terms of behaviour he does tick most of the boxes. (The Lee and Azzarello version does at least hint at some kind of tortured background, but it's much better handled than in the Killing Joke.)

Too bad all the DC movies in recent years have sucked tremendously.

Wonder Woman was excellent, Shazam was pretty fun, and it looks like audiences didn't hate Aquaman. It doesn't have to suck, I guess.

[Olinser]

Too bad all the DC movies in recent years have sucked tremendously.

What? They're at 3 out of 4 of their last movies being good to great (Wonder Woman great, Shazam pretty good, and Aquaman good) with Justice League being mediocre but watchable. They haven't made a bad movie in a while now.

[Narkis]

The Killing Joke is terrible and I pretty much hate the "One Bad Day" conception of the Joker's origins. (Mostly because it's a lie- psychopathy is around 70% driven by genetic factors.)

But that's what's great about The Killing Joke. Yes, it's a lie. It's a lie Joker tells himself, as well as others. His motivation in that entire plot is to drive commissioner Gordon insane and prove once and for all that every man is "one bad day" from being a Joker. But he fails. Commissioner Gordon is shaken, but still very much sane and with no change to his morality. Joker's point is refuted in the most devastating (for him) way. Joker refuses to accept it, but the evidence is right there.

[Lacuna Caster]

But that's what's great about The Killing Joke. Yes, it's a lie. It's a lie Joker tells himself, as well as others. His motivation in that entire plot is to drive commissioner Gordon insane and prove once and for all that every man is "one bad day" from being a Joker. But he fails. Commissioner Gordon is shaken, but still very much sane and with no change to his morality. Joker's point is refuted in the most devastating (for him) way. Joker refuses to accept it, but the evidence is right there.

That's a much more interesting take, but I don't see any indication that Joker's own backstory is a fabrication or false memory, or that he had any particularly dark impulses prior to his wife's death, et cetera. It just feels very perfunctory.

[Traab]

That's a much more interesting take, but I don't see any indication that Joker's own backstory is a fabrication or false memory, or that he had any particularly dark impulses prior to his wife's death, et cetera. It just feels very perfunctory.

The thing is, he has a LOT of backstories. There is no way of telling which is real or if any are. Its not just retcons or things like the nu 52 or whatever, his backstory is totally unknown and nothing can be confirmed. He also is well established at messing with people through lies and manipulation

[Narkis]

That's a much more interesting take, but I don't see any indication that Joker's own backstory is a fabrication or false memory, or that he had any particularly dark impulses prior to his wife's death, et cetera. It just feels very perfunctory.

Let me transcribe some dialogues from The Killing Joke that I think point to that direction:

First, the moment when Batman finds the Commissioner:

Spoiler

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Gordon: "He... He shot Barbara. Showed me ph-photographs... He tried to drive me mad"

Batman: "Listen, the police are following right behind me... I'll stay here with you until they arrive."

G: "No! No, I'm okay! You have to go after him! I want him brought in... and I want him brought in by the book!"

B: "I'll do my best."

G: "By the book, you hear? We have to show him! We have to show him that our way works!"

Batman then goes after the Joker, and we have this wonderful villain's monologue:

Spoiler

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Joker: "So... I see you received the free ticket I sent you. I'm glad. I did so want you to be here."

"You see, it doesn't matter if you catch me and send me back to the asylum... Gordon's been driven mad. I've proved my point."

"I've demonstrated there's no difference between me and everyone else! All it takes is one bad day to reduce the sanest man alive to lunacy. That's how far the world is from where I am. Just one bad day"

"You had a bad day once, am I right? I know I am. I can tell. You had a bad day and everything changed. Why else would you dress up like a flying rat?"

"You had a bad day, and it drove you as crazy as everybody else... Only you won't admit it! You have to keep pretending that life makes sens, that there's some point to all this struggling!"

"God you make me want to puke."

"I mean, what is it with you? What made you what you are? Girlfriend killed by the mob, maybe? Brother carved up by some mugger? Something like that, I bet. Something like that..."

"Something like that happened to me, you know. I... I'm not exactly sure what it was. Sometimes I remember it one way, sometimes another..."

"If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice! Ha ha ha!"

(bolding mine) Batman later tries to use the Commissioner's continued sanity in an effort to prove to Joker that he's wrong, uniquely insane, and should seek therapy. The Joker of course won't budge. But it's clear: The Commissioner didn't crack. The Joker did. And the Joker's past isn't narrated to us by any omniscient narrator. The flashbacks are all Joker's memories, brought forth by something vaguely related in the present. The same Joker who admits "sometimes I remember it one way, sometimes another...".

[ArlEammon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diedt71QXMk

So this is interesting. I don't know much about Red Skull other than that he's a Nazi or something.

[Dienekes]

The Killing Joke is terrible and I pretty much hate the "One Bad Day" conception of the Joker's origins. (Mostly because it's a lie- psychopathy is around 70% driven by genetic factors.)

That’s... the point of The Killing Joke. Gordon doesn’t break. It’s kinda the climax of the story.