Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread

[Chen]

Overall I think I enjoyed the film, but thinking back on it I am annoyed at a couple of missed opportunities, both involving the female characters.

Spoiler

Show

Firstly, Black Widow. While it was obviously a powerful scene with her and Hawkeye fighting over who is sacrificed, I don’t think they had Hawkeye explain WHY she deserved to live? There was clear logic in why she wanted him to survive, with trying to recover his family, but with Black Widow having less attachments it was less obvious for her, beyond Hawkeye caring about her and being willing to sacrifice himself for her. Having him explain why she was important would have been a very good challenge to her ‘I’m a monster’ self image that was established in Age of Ultron. I also wish she had been the one to survive: while Hawkeye is awesome, the gender split in the film wasn’t exactly helped by having one of the major female characters die part way through, and I feel Black Widow could have fairly seamlessly filled his role.

Secondly, Nebula. I was really expecting more from the past Nebula infiltration plan, but all that happened was her bringing Thanos through. At the very least I’d have liked to see some conversations to justify the ‘they didn’t suspect a thing’ line, but more than that I’d have liked a lengthy confrontation that culminated to summoning Thanos when she appears to have been found out and defeated (possibly by the other Nebula). She should have had a chance to succeed without needing him.

So yeah, decent film, but missed opportunities in my mind... any thoughts on the above?

Spoiler

Show

Not sure there is an objective reason why Black Widow should have lived vs Hawkeye. She’s a better spy than him but thats about it. Him having a family to go back to is probably a better justification. He only wanted to do it to spare her. What Im confused about is why suicide worked. The soul stone requires a sacrifice from the person who’s going to get it. Gamorra TRIED killing herself when she realized what Thanos was going to do. But here Hawkeye didnt sacrifice anything by his own will. He was trying his darndest NOT to sacrifice Nat. She kills herself and yet he gets the stone. She made the sacrifice, the stone should belong to her corpse.

Nebula was always a secondary character. Im ok with her arc here. Especially evil Nebula who was going to “lose” anyways

[deuterio12]

You know, the best part of the movie was Thanos himself admitting he had been wrong all along.

Kinda surprised the regular military didn't show up to intercept the giant alien battleship bombing the USA nor we seeing the government going "oh gods there's an alien army invading we need to throw nukes at them!"

Oh, and the whole branching paths thingy means that there's 14,000,604 timelines where Thanos still wins.

Spoiler

Show

Not sure there is an objective reason why Black Widow should have lived vs Hawkeye. She’s a better spy than him but thats about it. Him having a family to go back to is probably a better justification. He only wanted to do it to spare her. What Im confused about is why suicide worked. The soul stone requires a sacrifice from the person who’s going to get it. Gamorra TRIED killing herself when she realized what Thanos was going to do. But here Hawkeye didnt sacrifice anything by his own will. He was trying his darndest NOT to sacrifice Nat. She kills herself and yet he gets the stone. She made the sacrifice, the stone should belong to her corpse.

Nebula was always a secondary character. Im ok with her arc here. Especially evil Nebula who was going to “lose” anyways

Clearly turns out that

Spoiler

Show

the soul stone isn't too picky and only cares about one's loved one dying regardless of the method or who's doing it, so even if Gamorra had succeeded in killing herself, Thanos would've got the prize anyway.

[Hopeless]

Clearly turns out that

Spoiler

Show

the soul stone isn't too picky and only cares about one's loved one dying regardless of the method or who's doing it, so even if Gamorra had succeeded in killing herself, Thanos would've got the prize anyway.

Spoiler

Show

Which means as long as she died on Vormir on that cliff he would have still got the soul stone...

[Silfir]

Overall I think I enjoyed the film, but thinking back on it I am annoyed at a couple of missed opportunities, both involving the female characters.

Spoiler

Show

Firstly, Black Widow. While it was obviously a powerful scene with her and Hawkeye fighting over who is sacrificed, I don’t think they had Hawkeye explain WHY she deserved to live? There was clear logic in why she wanted him to survive, with trying to recover his family, but with Black Widow having less attachments it was less obvious for her, beyond Hawkeye caring about her and being willing to sacrifice himself for her. Having him explain why she was important would have been a very good challenge to her ‘I’m a monster’ self image that was established in Age of Ultron. I also wish she had been the one to survive: while Hawkeye is awesome, the gender split in the film wasn’t exactly helped by having one of the major female characters die part way through, and I feel Black Widow could have fairly seamlessly filled his role.

Secondly, Nebula. I was really expecting more from the past Nebula infiltration plan, but all that happened was her bringing Thanos through. At the very least I’d have liked to see some conversations to justify the ‘they didn’t suspect a thing’ line, but more than that I’d have liked a lengthy confrontation that culminated to summoning Thanos when she appears to have been found out and defeated (possibly by the other Nebula). She should have had a chance to succeed without needing him.

So yeah, decent film, but missed opportunities in my mind... any thoughts on the above?

Spoiler

Show

It tends to be very important in these superhero confrontations that the physical confrontation is the logical consequence of a difference in opinions, values, principles; it's an attempt to settle a dispute with fists what couldn't be settled with words. In the end, Black Widow won because she quite simply had the better argument. Between a hero with familial attachments and a hero with none, it's the latter who should sacrifice themselves if such a sacrifice should be necessary.

Gender doesn't even enter into it. There are not enough women in fiction, but that doesn't mean that the women that are there should be given plot armor. If Black Widow's story ends with her own sacrifice, there should simply be more female heroes waiting in the wings, each with their own unique tales with unlimited possibilities.

As for Nebula - pretty sure she got more than enough screentime in this three-hour-long film. I liked the moral murkiness of her deciding that her own past self had to be stopped permanently before she could cause any more damage, even though she is living proof that this past self of hers is not beyond redemption.

[LibraryOgre]

Overall I think I enjoyed the film, but thinking back on it I am annoyed at a couple of missed opportunities, both involving the female characters.

Spoiler

Show

Firstly, Black Widow. While it was obviously a powerful scene with her and Hawkeye fighting over who is sacrificed, I don’t think they had Hawkeye explain WHY she deserved to live? There was clear logic in why she wanted him to survive, with trying to recover his family, but with Black Widow having less attachments it was less obvious for her, beyond Hawkeye caring about her and being willing to sacrifice himself for her. Having him explain why she was important would have been a very good challenge to her ‘I’m a monster’ self image that was established in Age of Ultron. I also wish she had been the one to survive: while Hawkeye is awesome, the gender split in the film wasn’t exactly helped by having one of the major female characters die part way through, and I feel Black Widow could have fairly seamlessly filled his role.

So yeah, decent film, but missed opportunities in my mind... any thoughts on the above?

Spoiler: Just the Black Widow Part

Show

It's not that she DESERVED to live. It's that he wanted to die. He hated what he had become as Ronin. He didn't want to be the Clint-who-became-Ronin around his family, he didn't want to live if they failed, he was quite ready to die... and, well, he loved Natasha (not romantically, but loved), and didn't want her to die. He couldn't save his family, but he might be able to save her.

But Nat had her own ideas. She had red in her ledger; a lot of it. The work with the Avengers partially erased that, but I bet she felt she was under a burden she could never repay. But she chose her own way of paying it back... of giving them a chance to save everyone, of giving Clint a chance with his family. It meant that Natasha had to die, but she's been ready for that... and it let her reach peace with a clean ledger.

[Frozen_Feet]

Spoiler: Black Widow & Hawkeye

Show

I found Clint's reasoning to be pretty clear in a read-between-the-lines sorta way. He simply believed Nat's a better person and that he himself has gone way too far off the rails to deserve life.

As far as why he got the stone, in my mind the sacrifice exists in the psychological / spiritual level. (It is the Soul stone.) He didn't physically push Nat of the cliff, but upon seeing her die, he had to accept it, hence (symbolically) sacrificing both her and his stance on her.

As for whether Gamora committing suicide would've given Thanos the stone? Only, I believe, after the terms of the sacrifice had been explained. If Gamora had killed herself without Thanos knowing the terms, he would not have gotten it.

Spoiler: Nebula

Show

I saw Alt!Nebula and Alt!Thanos teasing alternate solutions and hence adding tension to what's otherwise a pretty straightforward plot.

Namely:

Nebula has used the Infinity Gauntlet in the comics at least once (IIRC), so the presence of Alt!Nebula teased the possibility of her using the stones in place of or even against Thanos.

Meanwhile, Thanos in the comics regretted the Snap and undid it himself (IIRC), so when he's sitting on his cheeks & just chillin', it teased the possibility of him coming around and making peace with Tony, Cap & Thor.

In these respects, it's similar to Cap's elevator scene: alluding to past material & subverting expectations built on that material to do something different.

The effect is obviously lost if you don't get the allusion.

[Reddish Mage]

Spoiler: Just the Black Widow Part

Show

It's not that she DESERVED to live. It's that he wanted to die. He hated what he had become as Ronin. He didn't want to be the Clint-who-became-Ronin around his family, he didn't want to live if they failed, he was quite ready to die... and, well, he loved Natasha (not romantically, but loved), and didn't want her to die. He couldn't save his family, but he might be able to save her.

But Nat had her own ideas. She had red in her ledger; a lot of it. The work with the Avengers partially erased that, but I bet she felt she was under a burden she could never repay. But she chose her own way of paying it back... of giving them a chance to save everyone, of giving Clint a chance with his family. It meant that Natasha had to die, but she's been ready for that... and it let her reach peace with a clean ledger.

Spoiler: Black Widow’s character arc

Show

When you look at it, everything about Black Widow was leading to this point.

Black Widow never had a solo movie, but she had received plenty of her own arcs in the Avengers and Captain America movies. Each of these arcs tell us something about her:

She tries to negotiate with Loki over Clint’s heart in Avengers. Loki says she loves him, she said she owes him.

We learn quite a past in Winter Soldier. That she was sterilized and denied a chance at family in Age of Ultron (and her romance with Bruce was short-lived).

Since she never had her own movie, we never got more than hints of her pathos and deep background with Clint, there were a lot of hanging threads but no way to weave them into the overall plot. Now, finally, they all get resolved when she sacrifices herself for Clint so he can have a family:

Her love/debt for Clint, her guilt over her past, even her sterility and desire for family, all of that plays out in this one scene where she sacrifices herself for Clint, his family and saves the world.

Few endings could have been more beautifully written.

[Frozen_Feet]

Spoiler: More about Black Widow & Hawkeye

Show

Another way to characterize Clint's relation to Natasha: Clint's chief motivation in this movie is his family. That he doesn't want to sacrifice Natasha implies he feels she is part of his family. Shoving her off that cliff would've been like killing his own sister & last living member of his family to boot.

This is strongly supported by Age of Ultron: Natasha's basically treated as an aunt to Clint's kids and he & his wife were going to name one of their kids after her.

Just... just writing that made the scene retroactively even sadder. Natasha nooooooo...

[Comrade]

Overall I think I enjoyed the film, but thinking back on it I am annoyed at a couple of missed opportunities, both involving the female characters.

Spoiler

Show

Firstly, Black Widow. While it was obviously a powerful scene with her and Hawkeye fighting over who is sacrificed, I don’t think they had Hawkeye explain WHY she deserved to live? There was clear logic in why she wanted him to survive, with trying to recover his family, but with Black Widow having less attachments it was less obvious for her, beyond Hawkeye caring about her and being willing to sacrifice himself for her. Having him explain why she was important would have been a very good challenge to her ‘I’m a monster’ self image that was established in Age of Ultron. I also wish she had been the one to survive: while Hawkeye is awesome, the gender split in the film wasn’t exactly helped by having one of the major female characters die part way through, and I feel Black Widow could have fairly seamlessly filled his role.

Secondly, Nebula. I was really expecting more from the past Nebula infiltration plan, but all that happened was her bringing Thanos through. At the very least I’d have liked to see some conversations to justify the ‘they didn’t suspect a thing’ line, but more than that I’d have liked a lengthy confrontation that culminated to summoning Thanos when she appears to have been found out and defeated (possibly by the other Nebula). She should have had a chance to succeed without needing him.

So yeah, decent film, but missed opportunities in my mind... any thoughts on the above?

Spoiler

Show

I don't have the same familiarity with Black Widow's arc as other folks do, so I can't really speak to that, but I didn't interpret that scene the same way you did. I don't think it was ever really about having logical reasons to think the other person should live-- it was simply that they cared about one another, and both had lost and suffered a lot, and neither wanted to live with the thought that they were-- however indirectly-- responsible for the other dying.

Plus what others have said about the dude being all torn up about having turned into an edgy ninja guy.

As for Nebula, the movie was already pretty darn long, I don't think they could have gotten away with making her particular subplot longer. It's an Avengers film, after all, not a Nebula one (although I really enjoyed her arc and wouldn't mind a movie where she plays a more central role). And anyway, what do you mean by 'a chance to succeed without needing him'? Isn't that exactly what she did? A large part of her arc as a character is shaking off the parts of her that were defined by Thanos-- her villainy, her rivalry with her sister, her isolation, etc.

[The Glyphstone]

Spoiler

Show

Personally, I'm a little miffed that Banner got the resolution of his character development arc skimmed over in a five-year timeskip and 30 seconds of dialogue, as much as I recognize that would have made the movie even longer. The end of Infinity War left him and Hulk in a very interesting place, where Hulk finally met someone stronger than it and was scared of the rematch. Contrasted against Bruce who is terrified of pretty much everything and still risks his neck on a regular basis, I feel like showing the synthesis of his two personalities to some degree would have been better than telling. At the very least they could have given him a 60-second on-screen argument with Hulk before they all went to wreck Old Man Thanos.

[Thufir]

Spoiler

Show

Personally, I'm a little miffed that Banner got the resolution of his character development arc skimmed over in a five-year timeskip and 30 seconds of dialogue, as much as I recognize that would have made the movie even longer. The end of Infinity War left him and Hulk in a very interesting place, where Hulk finally met someone stronger than it and was scared of the rematch. Contrasted against Bruce who is terrified of pretty much everything and still risks his neck on a regular basis, I feel like showing the synthesis of his two personalities to some degree would have been better than telling. At the very least they could have given him a 60-second on-screen argument with Hulk before they all went to wreck Old Man Thanos.

Spoiler

Show

Before they explained the mechanics of MCU time travel I was assuming we would actually end up reverting to before the timeskip, and in that context I thought it was kind of interesting to show the end-point of Banner's/Hulk's character development before undoing it and then working slowly back towards it in future films.
Then they explained the time travel mechanics and OK, no, we just skipped all the character development.

[understatement]

Okay, I'm just going to drop in my bucketload of thoughts and then subtly sneak away. FYI, they run in a non-sequitur fashion.

Spoiler

Show

Ok, so.

Uh.

Wow.

It was quite a film.

I walked in knowing Tony Stark and another important character would die.

I walked in expecting the whole OG Avengers to either die, or, halfway in the film, trapped back in time and all catch up as retiring elderlies. I thought they might go into the Soul Stone to retrieve Gamora, and Nebula would sacrifice herself landing the final blow. In hindsight I really shouldn't store up on my theories.

I thought they would actually defeat Thanos, not fingersnap him. And I definitely thought more of them would die.

Ok, I guess I'll talk about the (main) characters:

Hawkeye, despite being one of the weakest Avengers, was pretty damn cool: I think the hairstyle suits him! The part where he's chased through the red tunnel by Thanos's soldiers was awesome. His reaction to Nat's death was moving too.

The Hulk: Huh. He's not really my favorite character, and apart from technoposition he didn't feel the most integral of roles.

Thor: The "fat self" thing seemed a little harsh. His reunion with his mother (I did NOT expect) was also a nice point in the film, although I wished he could've said (or seen) farewell to his Asgard buddies, Sif, Jane, or his own brother. Loki's cameo was freshening, and I was really hoping he'd be in the final fight for whatever convoluted reason.

Captain America: Wow, he got badass REALLY quickly with Mjolnr. I actually thought Thanos was just going to run him through with that BFS of his. Glad he's old and happy now.

Black Widow: I'm not the biggest fan of her character (I did like her in TWS) but her banter with Hawkeye was nice. I really wished they built more on the relationship. The scene where 2 adults struggle to race off the cliff was definitely well done. Gud to know you, Nat.

Iron Man: Ooooh boy. He somehow remains one of my favorites and his death could be seen a mile away. The part where he meets his dad is probably the most emotional for me. Reuniting with family members (from OOTS to Endgame) is always, and will ever be, a soft spot.

Some honorable mentions of characters:

The sequence where Lang stumbles around San Fran, stricken, is amazingly done.

The scene where Captain Marvel saves Tony and Nebula -- the starlight effect on her was amazing.

Tony and Nebula playing table football!

America's Ass, indeed. The flashbacks were also great, giving the audience a glimpse into all of their old days.

Also, Marvel tanking Thanos' headbutt! That was awesome!

The funeral scene was the 40-character scene, I suppose? Sigh. For the film, it was great to see so many characters from previous films.

The first half definitely dragged -- it was harrowing to see them so desolate, so desperate, and seeing them regroup was cathartic. Seeing Thanos go down like a p*************** was a bit of a let-down -- then again it's probable, since he didn't have the stones. The final battle was messy, but better rendered than the previous film's Wakanda battle. And I love how it boiled down to "pass the guantlet" like some sort of hot tomato game.

Actually, I really don't know what to say. For such a long movie I can't articulate my thoughts coherently onto keyboard. I'll say that I left the theater somewhat disquieted, unlike the shell-shock of Infinity War. Infinity War was probably "better" in terms of action, awesome moments, and team shots, but Endgame does have a proper resolution to some truly remarkable characters.

Aghhhh, there's so much I want to say but I can't express properly. So I'll bail and come back later, I guess.

For me, with Infinity War being 8.5/10, this was around 8/10.

[Bartmanhomer]

Spoiler: About Captain Marvel

Show

I feel like that Captain Marvel should have played a bigger part in the movie but she was good overall.

[Dilvish]

Brown or Who?

That is a great question. I was thinking of Who. I had totally forgotten about Doc Brown, even when I was thinking a Deloran cameo would have been amusing. Thank you, Saintheart, for noticing my omission.

[Reddish Mage]

That is a great question. I was thinking of Who. I had totally forgotten about Doc Brown, even when I was thinking a Deloran cameo would have been amusing. Thank you, Saintheart, for noticing my omission.

Yep, that was what Endgame was missing...lack of cameos and easter eggs. Why couldn't they find time for those!?

[deuterio12]

Spoiler: About Captain Marvel

Show

I feel like that Captain Marvel should have played a bigger part in the movie but she was good overall.

As pointed out by herself

Spoiler

Show

It's a pretty big universe and the Earth already has the avengers to take care of most stuff while she's busy saving all the other planets.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yep, that was what Endgame was missing...lack of cameos and easter eggs. Why couldn't they find time for those!?

Fair point. I still was a bit disappointed that Stark didn’t show up in a delorean when delivering his time compass gadgets. They didn’t need to make an issue of it, it’s just the kind of thing he could do for style.

Grey Wolf

[Delicious Taffy]

Fair point. I still was a bit disappointed that Stark didn’t show up in a delorean when delivering his time compass gadgets. They didn’t need to make an issue of it, it’s just the kind of thing he could do for style.

Grey Wolf

Yeah, but then we wouldn't have the blatant Audi advert.

[SaintRidley]

I'll just say I cried. Twice. The movie was trying to make me cry right from the beginning, and just when I thought it wouldn't succeed, it got me twice.

Spoiler: The moments

Show

Tony's hologram telling Morgan "I love you 3000." That got me bad. It didn't help that we immediately went to the "Proof that Tony Stark has a Heart" reminder. That continued it, but I was okay after that and thought I was done.

Then Sam asked old man Cap how it was, getting that life. And then the tears really started rolling when he said "It was beautiful."

Yeah, I'm not fussed about pacing or mechanics of time travel or anything with this movie. It hit me hard in the emotions with that one-two punch after trying really hard all movie to move me to tears (it damn near succeeded on quite a few scenes), and it got me in the end. It's a solid 8/10 for me on the strength of that emotional work alone.

[Rodin]

Yeah, but then we wouldn't have the blatant Audi advert.

I don't really consider "guy who has been previously shown to drive fancy sports cars pulling up in a fancy sports car" to be particularly blatant. They're not going to make a Brand X car just for the movie, so they're going to be advertising for somebody. Who cares which company at that point? My suspension of disbelief can withstand "time traveling dude with a nanotech super suit driving an Audi" pretty easily.

I would have liked to see Stan Lee driving the DeLorean if there was going to be one, but upon Googling it looks like it was about 10 years too early for that. Pretty cool final cameo anyway (if indeed that is the last one they filmed).

[Aedilred]

I don't really consider "guy who has been previously shown to drive fancy sports cars pulling up in a fancy sports car" to be particularly blatant. They're not going to make a Brand X car just for the movie, so they're going to be advertising for somebody. Who cares which company at that point? My suspension of disbelief can withstand "time traveling dude with a nanotech super suit driving an Audi" pretty easily.

Indeed he's driven an Audi R8 (in a number of variants) since Iron Man. Sure, there's some product placement, but it's consistency as much as anything.

[Dilvish]

Yep, that was what Endgame was missing...lack of cameos and easter eggs. Why couldn't they find time for those!?

Wow, what an over-reaction to my comment. Not that it called for any comment at all.

[Delicious Taffy]

Wow, what an over-reaction to my comment. Not that it called for any comment at all.

A small amount of sarcasm is an overreaction?

[Ramza00]

So today, Avengers Endgame is now #2 movie of all time in nominal dollars, beating out Titanic.

#1 Avatar
$2.788.0 billion International Total
$_,760.5 million just the United States

#2 Avengers: Endgame
$2.188.7 billion International Total
$_,619.7 million just the United States

#3 Titanic
$2.187.5 billion International Total
$_,659.4 million just the United States

So Endgame is already 78.5% of the box office of Avatar but its only been out 10 days while Avatar was out for 34 weeks (238 days.)

Sigh we really are getting 20 more MCU movies aren't we?

[The Glyphstone]

Let's just put Nick Fury's face on our money and be done with it, cut out the middleman.

[Delicious Taffy]

You can't argue with the numbers, I guess.

[understatement]

A small amount of sarcasm is an overreaction?

Yes.

Also,

Spoiler

Show

How was Black Widow and Hawkeye able to breathe on Vormir?

[Legato Endless]

As pointed out by herself

Spoiler

Show

It's a pretty big universe and the Earth already has the avengers to take care of most stuff while she's busy saving all the other planets.

Out of universe, a significant factor was probably the fact that the production of Captain Marvel started later than End Game, and there's only so much to be altered with reshoots and their close release dates.

[Bartmanhomer]

Yes.

Also,

Spoiler

Show

How was Black Widow and Hawkeye able to breathe on Vormir?

Spoiler: Answer Of Your Question.

Show

Uh, movie logic.

[Erys]

Sigh we really are getting 20 more MCU movies aren't we?

At minimum.

I wonder if the next big thing from the MCU will be Xmen v Avengers.

Regardless, they are already setting the stage for the next generation of heroes- they will likely ride this train for decades to come.

Spoiler

Show

How was Black Widow and Hawkeye able to breathe on Vormir?

Spoiler

Show

The same way Gamora and Thanos did?

I don't recall anything ever suggesting there was a breath-ability issue on Vormir.