Sauron vs Voldemort

[Rowanomicon]

Amusingly, even the LotR RPG doesn't give any stats for Sauron; it simply says, 'If your heroes are fighting Sauron directly, they have already lost'.

Now replace the word "heros" with "semi-competant villains" and we have this thread.

[Ossian]

If I were to pick an opponent, between Dr. Faustus (24 years of supernatural knowledge and powers, condemned soul and so on) and Lucipher the Great, I'd go for Dr. Faustus.

Sure, the lucipher metaphor applies more directly to Melkor/Morgoth. Guardian of the divine Throne, among the most powerful beings conceived by the mind of the One God, and yet rebellious and ultimately corrupt. Sauron, although he starts playing in a lower league, is of the same kind (pretty much like some of the Angels that joined Lucipher's uprising against Heaven). A semi divine being, born of hining beauty and under the direct service of the "God's Smith", skilled beyond comparison in all crafts, directly connected to the thread of reality so as to be able to shape it by mere will.

Picking bits here and there, it's almost safe to assume that he was a powerful maia of Aule, and in my opinion being picked by Morgoth says a lot on how good you must have been. Balrogs were maiar too, and they fell, but all they could achieve was to become flaming brutes that left destruction in their wake, but still followed orders. Sauron, on the other hand, was the "trusted lieutenant" of the "evil overlord". If he was so trusted, it must have been for a reason.

Granted, he lost many of his original abilities with time and defeats, one being the very shapeshifting that characterized most maiar, wasted by too many and too powerful transformations, that eventually bound them to a "fana" (avatar, physical manifestation) they could not change. This was only after the Orodruin defeat though. BEfore then he could still appear as fair and noble and powerful, a gigantic and noble man in numenore, and a beautiful and powerful blond elf among the very elf lords of Ost In Edhil by mid second age.

He spent countless centuries in unlife, boiling his own flesh in the fumes of hatred, revenge, lust for destruction, before rebuilding an avatar. He just does not play in the same league compared to any other character. The Istari, possibly the 5 most powerful classical wizards with staff and spells of Middle Earth, feared him, did not dare to face him, and at the very best tryed to mock his power by taking residence ina wannabe Barad Dur (Orthanc) and acting like evil overlord themselves (Saruman, and speculatioins about one of the 2 blue wizards of the east). Now, I would not find it difficult to see any of the Istari as teachers at Hogwarts (one of them was even the principal there, although in disguise, and a powerful leader of the mutants, and another is also a Sith Lord ). yet I still "feel" the gap between them as impossible to fill.

Besides, I would just give the One Ring to Voldemort and see him fall miserably. It's just what would happen to him, if one is to believe what Gandalf says when he's offered the ring by frodo. He would become incredibly powerful, and would be consumed, and eventually shift into the "unlife" (since we almost agreed that waraiths in Middle Earth are not undead), becomeing a shadow in the service of the creator of the Ring, Sauron, the Dark Lord.

O.

[Ditto]

I'll grant that the LOTR magic system is vague...
HP magic has a more defined toolbelt *and* is more open-ended. The toolbelt is far-reaching as it is, and brewing new potions and crafting new spells has proven quite possible.

Voldemort is a potions master. So is Snape, and I see no reason not to count him on his team, since he fought as one of them unto death. Saruman worked mostly to Sauron's same ends, but at no point did he ever consider himself to be on Sauron's team. Snape did. I wouldn't dismiss Felix as a useless item, "even" if it's "just" for Voldemort himself. One day's worth of good luck would be pretty devasting. That's sort of an arcane solution, though, so we'll put it aside.

The Dementors are not affected by the Imperius curse, and it is repeatedly stated that the Ministry wizards have no effective way of controlling them when they've run amok, then joined Voldemort. Are any of the creatures in Sauron's collections similar to dark creatures in their origin? That is, made of spite and maliciousness itself?
It's a good thing the LOTR RPG is generally dismissed as having any use vis a vis the canon. That *is* a high magic setting, and people hated it. Sort of implies something about the real thing, don't you think?

[dehro]

even so, one is as close as you can get to a god, surrounded by creatures that by nature and by lore are verrrrry hard to beat, some of them not unlike him in nature, or anyway not by a man), the other is, at his best, as close as you can get to being a lich..and surrounded by a gang of selfish, whimpering buffoons with a few good spells.
(and I take the two definitions , god and lich, a bit broadly, since I have not an extended knowledge of the two terms in d&d)

the only edge voldemort's associates have over the goodies in the HP saga is that they are willing to use forbidden magic and the goodies are not allowed to. when the rules are trown down the drain, even 15y olds can beat any of them.
do you think that Sauron will have the same moral restraints as the goodies in HP??
come to think of it, if HP magic is nothing but formules, potions and spells, it seems to me that any of Sauron's minions, if not himself, should be able to learn some of it, if not all of it... while voldemort can hardly learn to be... a maiar, or anything into that direction
It seems to me that we are still talking of two different leagues..no?

[Rutee]

I'll grant that the LOTR magic system is vague...
HP magic has a more defined toolbelt *and* is more open-ended. The toolbelt is far-reaching as it is, and brewing new potions and crafting new spells has proven quite possible.

Open-ended is a system that shows you spells as examples of what you can do at your level of power. For instance, Matter 3 means I can do up to this feat of magic with non-living material. Specific spells are there as examples and baselines, not "You can do this, and only this."

A system where you MUST know what you want to cast before you can /consider/ learning to cast it is not open ended, compared to a system where you only need to know is that you /can/ cast it. Granted, if I were running a Harry Potter game, I'd give everyone the ability to make spells up on the spot, based on the Batman rule (If your characters know more about the world then you do, it stands to reason they can prepare better then you can), as long as it had a fitting incant, but it doesn't mean that's how the system works in the setting. If I want to do something in the HP world with magic, I have to have already learned the specific spell that does that.

And your potions are not your magic. Or at least, they're not the same sense. THey require ingredients and time. Not something you can count on in the field if you don't already have the potion. If something plays by different rules then your magic, it's not your magic, however supplementary it may be.

The amusing thing is that while I don't think Sauron can subvert Voldemort's magic, It shouldn't be difficult to copy their potions, provided that they can find a copy of the book that isn't a decoy by Voldemort (Who may or may not have the good sense to try such a thing)

the only edge voldemort's associates have over the goodies in the HP saga is that they are willing to use forbidden magic and the goodies are not allowed to. when the rules are trown down the drain, even 15y olds can beat any of them.
do you think that Sauron will have the same moral restraints as the goodies in HP??

Normally I'd try to leave the heroes out of this, as protagonist factor is mighty but the fact does remain that Voldemort's guys CAN be beaten by children in their fifth year of study. Say what you will, the fact remains that before seventh year, those kids shouldn't have had a very good shot at it, since they simply did not have nearly as wide a basis of learning, or experience, as Voldemort's minions. If Luck and Protagonist Factor can make up /that/ gap, maybe your minions just aren't very good. So hm.

The Dementors are not affected by the Imperius curse, and it is repeatedly stated that the Ministry wizards have no effective way of controlling them when they've run amok, then joined Voldemort. Are any of the creatures in Sauron's collections similar to dark creatures in their origin? That is, made of spite and maliciousness itself?

If there are no ministry wizards that are on Sauron's level of power (And given that most of them are portrayed as idiot bureaucrats, I find this to be a given), this is pretty irrelevant, guy. Sauron controls dark creatures (no caps, I don't mean world specific ones) as a matter of course, HP people simply don't do that. Even Voldemort has to bargain and wheedle, and he seems to be the height of evil on the HP World and history.

Just because most wizard duelling is done at close range doesn't mean it can't be done elsewise. There's no reason to think you can't hex from farther away - it's mainly a function of spotting your target. It's no good to shoot a stunner from a hundred yards if you can't see the person, or if they already see you. However, there is evidence of magic working at significant distances - Morsmorde can travel aways off before erupting, and Quirrel jinxing Harry's broom was affecting a rapidly moving target more than a hundred feet away. And personal combat hexes *still* aren't the way wizards would deal with army mobs.

How *WOULD* they deal with them then? The only thing you've ever mentioned was Fiendfyre, which is dangerous to the casters as well. I don't think HP magic *works* on army scales.

If they want to make a point of it, they can blow the fog away... or just burn it off... or walk around in it for a while, and apparate back to the starting point when they get bored. Sauron can see through illusions and magical disguises, but fog is still fog, and the Eye is a big telescope.

It was inferred to me earlier that it could see through its own weather effects. If that wouldn't work, just invoke that dark-as-hell night. Won't matter if the wizards light the place up with Lumos; You don't need to make them blind, just cripple LoS to the point where they can't effectively use Apparation in a local sense. You wanna burn it off? You have to effect any solutions in less-then-the-time-then-it-takes for an arrow volley to be deliverred. If you run immediately, you leave the troops there to be destroyed. Perfect Fleeing doesn't really count as a win unless you can inflict damage anyway.

[EvilElitest]

A wandless wizard is absolutely screwed. They can apparate away, and Voldemort can do some things, but they're effectively out of the fight.

So like at 20 percent of their orgingal power tops

I see what you're saying about a neutral battlefield... on the other hand, Voldemort has great knowledge of hidey-holes in Britain and all manner of other nifty tricks that home turf grants. It's no stronghold, but when you live in Britain and the other guy lives in Middle Earth, you have some trouble 'crossing the border'

Is it Britain with not pouplation or just Britain normally

... in other threads, the battlefield has always been space. Space is neutral terrain. There weren't strongholds to defend, it was never an issue. I don't know what to say to this point. Voldemort still isn't going to fight at Mount Doom.

Yes it has been neutral terrain, but it normally is also one on one

Black Breath seems like crop dusting to me. It's more than the range of breath, but still essentially a local effect.

Anything the nazgul touch spread the black breath

Sauron can offer them Death Eaters? Death Eaters are rather more challenging targets than any number of orcs.

Sauron offers death eater and orcs, not just orcs.

And however many folks Sauron offers, Voldemort can 'offer' more - he's cool with the dementors eating anyone at all.

Hmmmmmm
Mr. V- Hey dudes, i can offer you ten thousand orcs
Dementar- sweet, when can i expect them to arrive?
Mr. V- Oh no, i don't give them to you, you have to go get them yourself
Dementar- But they have lots of pointy things, and they run away so we have to track them. ANd once we drain them all no more come
Sauron- I offer the same number of orcs, plus those humans. And my orcs will not fight back. And as they breed very fast, once this war is over a steady supply will come in

Now he's a fire spirit? Please stop being 'sure' of things unless they can demonstrably do such things.

Simeralion, before he was corrupted by Morgoth, he was a servent to Aule the Smith, valar of fire.

Mind control in the Potterverse has only been been shown to work on sentient beings, not creatures of any cast - dark, magical, or mundane.

And mind control in LOTRS can work on all but the most powerful good guys, and even they admit it could effect them.

Eowyn had a sword. It wasn't magical. I didn't say 'We know Voldemort has a cloak, it's probably an Invisibility Cloak.' It makes perfect sense for Eowyn to have a magical sword, but for whatever reason, the one she used to kill the Witch-King was not magical. Perhaps she left her shiny sword at home, since it would blow her cover if she used it in man-soldierly guise.

We don't "Know" that Eowyn had a magical sword, though their was one right next to her on the battle field, one that isn't mentioned again in the books. It makes perfect sense for her to have it, but no proof. However it also makes perfect sense for Voldemort to have a magical cloak, but no proof.

Coming back several thousand years faster isn't a one-up because it requires a minion? And Sauron had zero help in returning to power and recorporealizing?

Sauron? Well considering the nazguls are simply servents of his will and he reformed on his own, yes. He took time reorginizing his forces, but he came back on his own
Also, Mr. V is going to have to go through that annoying ritual again, first he becomes evil baby thing, then he has to remark the rituel, need to dig up an anceter, drain a foe, and knife a servent

If you need to Transfigure creatures to feed yourselves, then any wizard can do that. Even if someone had to do that full time... the orcs don't have their own dedicated cooks?

I don't know if orcs can cook, they do have bread but that is form Sauron's slaves, and they eat eachother so???

Apparating does require a clear mental image of the destination, having been there or having seen it or having seen a picture or having a clear description. How is Sauron blocking this? Line of sight is sufficient to scoot around the area, and back to the starting point if need be. You can enchant an area to be apparition proof with HP magic, and it seems it wouldn't work on Mount Doom. That's why the Death Eaters wouldn't go there.

No magic other than Sauron's seems to work at mount doom,

Magic in LOTR seems extremely limited, actually...

They turned a boat into the Sun, how is that limited?

Any fancy effects in LOTR have to be developed through dread rituals and mighty sacrifice and the like.

What was the sacerice of Gandalf burning hte orcs in the hobbit

Voldemort has never been killed without the power of love (while his horcruxes are around), so it's hard to say what effect it would have. The power of love is more the reason the AK was reflected than the reason Voldemort died... he should be able to be killed(-ish) with an AK like anyone else.

But he has to go through that annoying ritual every single time?

Voldemort's HMO covers regrowing bones, too! Dental is a toughie... I mean, they *are* all British.

..............
Touche, they are British
from,
EE
Edit-

Just because most wizard duelling is done at close range doesn't mean it can't be done elsewise. There's no reason to think you can't hex from farther away - it's mainly a function of spotting your target. It's no good to shoot a stunner from a hundred yards if you can't see the person, or if they already see you. However, there is evidence of magic working at significant distances - Morsmorde can travel aways off before erupting, and Quirrel jinxing Harry's broom was affecting a rapidly moving target more than a hundred feet away. And personal combat hexes *still* aren't the way wizards would deal with army mobs.

Then please explain how Harry can avoid every single one of Mr. V's apperently nasty spells?

[Greebo]

They did not turn a boat "into the sun"...

Eowen didn't need a magic sword to defeat the Witch King because it was Merry's sword that unbound the protections...

I'd like to see the justification for the claim that the nazgul can touch something and make it spread the black breath...

Harry DIDN'T avoid "every one" of Voldemort's spells, he got hit with plenty over the years...

And finally...WHERE in LOTRO do we hear that "mind control" would affect the wise???

(But Sauron will still win over Voldemort) ;)

[WalkingTarget]

They did not turn a boat "into the sun"...

Closest thing I can think of is that Earendil sails the sky and that the light of the Silmaril he bears is the evening star. The sun, I think, is mentioned as being carried in a vessel guided by a Maia, but as that's just dealing with the gods in general, I don't think "boat" is appropriate (the sun is made out of the fruit of one of the great trees anyway, the vessel just carries it).

I'd like to see the justification for the claim that the nazgul can touch something and make it spread the black breath...

I'm not aware of anything to suggest it other than possibly the idea that an arrow fired by them can result in it (that's still an attack by them, however, I doubt that it'd be transmitted if a Nazgul touched an arrow and then gave it to an orc who then shot somebody with it a week later).

[Greebo]

Closest thing I can think of is that Earendil sails the sky and that the light of the Silmaril he bears is the evening star. The sun, I think, is mentioned as being carried in a vessel guided by a Maia, but as that's just dealing with the gods in general, I don't think "boat" is appropriate (the sun is made out of the fruit of one of the great trees anyway, the vessel just carries it).

Correct on all counts. Any "boat" (ship, really) reference would indeed have to be in reference to Earendil, the Mariner.

The "vessels" carried by two of the maia are containers (not ships) for holding the light, and there were two, one for the golden tree's light and one for the silver tree's light.

I'm not aware of anything to suggest it other than possibly the idea that an arrow fired by them can result in it (that's still an attack by them, however, I doubt that it'd be transmitted if a Nazgul touched an arrow and then gave it to an orc who then shot somebody with it a week later).

My understanding was it was simply their mere presence on the battlefield that caused the effect. There were plenty who weren't wounded but who suffered the near total loss of hope that came as a result, until athelas was used to shake off the effects.

[Tamburlaine]

I find it somewhat shocking that this thread has gone on for as long as it has.

No offence.

[turkishproverb]

I find it somewhat shocking that this thread has gone on for as long as it has.

No offence.

None taken. Problem is, the Rawling fanboys would probably say that Voldemort beats Cthullhu or anyone in existance ever. Arguing with them and getting an accurate result would require going to Mt. Celestia.

[Rutee]

It's so weird. I like HP way better then LotR (At least I can /read/ Rowling's work. Pages upon Pages of description of the mountains is impressive in a literary sense, but doesn't really do anything for me) but I can't imagine saying that people who are /bad/ at covert war and are still just humans with parlor tricks could do much of anything to Sauron. I mean, I can think of lots of people I'd say actually /could/ beat the stuffing out of him (It doesn't hurt that most Console RPGs have you beating full-blown Gods; Demigods just aren't up to snuff at that point), but Harry Potter simply isn't on that power scale.

[Ossian]

Ah, but there is the "generation" factor that you forget to mention. It has to do with what influences your imagery when your mind is open and eager. Mind you, this has nothing to do with teenage or childhood or maturity years, but it is true that whatever leaves a mark on you when you are taking the first importanmt steps in a setting (say "fantasy" in its broadest sense) you also build, subconsciously, little shrines. I read the LOTR when I was 12, and that was just after some Dragonlance stuff (can you imagine the gap) and before any roleplay. I was PETRIFIED when I read what happened to Boromir (what, a party member does not make it to the BBEG? Note even to volume 2?) and when I started suspecting that the fellowship wouldn't go to mordor, that it would not end with a big lightsaber duel between Aragorn and Sauron before the gates of Minas Ithil (coneniently placed 1\2 way between the fortresses), i thought, oh my goodness this is ..fabulous! Sauron appeared to me with such a stature, and sheer undescribable power, something SOOOOO beyond the reach of anyone that I was actually scared when I re-read it and saw the Nazguls chasing the Hobbits through the Shire.

For me, no way that an Acquarion can beat Goldrake, Gerald Butler owns whatever holliwood star did Leonidas in the 50s, the Nadesico is a junk compared to Harlock's Arcadia or to the massive and totally NONSENSE batteries of the Starship Yamato and her Wave Motion Gun literally had me turned to stone when first it slowly loaded and then unloaded a bajollion of tera joule on the poor planet turning it to dust, so much that even th death star superlaser did make much of a show compared. You can pull all the Black Knights you want, none will beat the awe I get when Vader steps in, and all the cloaked evil wizards of Voldemort's sort, still Palaptine scares me the most. So, there is this factor, to me at least, that gives Sauron an edge over each and every other Voldemort of the world. It's fiction, and it's moreover a fiction of two narrative universes whith very little to share, created by two different minds.

Granted, being a world famous Oxonian philologist and one of the greatest literary geniuses of the XX century, au pair with Asimov and maybe Herbert, does weigh on my judgement. And yet, it's fiction, and it's very much self-referential, so any comparison would be a flight of imagination. In my flight, 20 years of marrow chilling fear at the mention of the Dark Lord in his tower of death beat 5 years of "hmmm, this setting is very cool, and Voldemort is a very well depicted villain, if a bit clichee".

O

[Ditto]

Though HP magic is a matter of formulas, it requires being a wizard, period. A muggle cannot use magic, no matter how much he or she waves a wand and says the words. It is implied that the magic potion brewing requires some magical skill, but that's not clear. I don't know why you wouldn't count potions as part of the wizards' arsenal, since it something they all have a thorough grounding in as part of their magical training. Also... "They" turned a boat into the sun? You mean The One original god? I'm okay with Creators doing cosmic-scale magic...

Yes, Voldemort's team was beaten by 15-year-olds. But they were *wizards*, and they actually *had* been training as a military unit, unlike the Death Eaters whose duelling skills were incidental at the outset of their training. (This still has no effect on an orc battle, since orcs cannot magically counter the duelling components.)

Sauron is a god in the mythological sense, not the theological sense. He is not an omnipotent panentheistic being - he's a person-thing with incredible abilities. Let's not start down the "He's a god THE End!!1" path again...

What does the fact that Harry can duck and cover have to do with the fact that wizards can shoot from far away?

Ministry wizards are generally idiot bureaucrats, but that's what you see in a government bureaucracy. The Aurors, Obliviators, Accidental Magic Reversal Squad, and other folks who deal with practical matters are shown as quite skilled.

Fiendfyre is only dangerous to the casters if they stick around. That's why they leave. Leaving is key.

Neutral terrain... one on one... in space? We're talking about different threads. I'm used to "Star Trek vs. Stargate" kinds of threads, with giant empires battling.


Yes, Sauron's team is huge, and he's a lesser god and has been around for thousands of years. But I've tried to take his powers and forces point by point, and I hope some feel I'm putting forth a serious effort to respond to criticisms. I don't feel Harry Potter would necessarily defeat anything thrown at it (like some people seem to feel about LOTR); but when someone is handed a win with little debate, I ask "...why?" I hope that's fair.

[turkishproverb]

For me, no way that an Acquarion can beat Goldrake, Gerald Butler owns whatever holliwood star did Leonidas in the 50s, the Nadesico is a junk compared to Harlock's Arcadia or to the massive and totally NONSENSE batteries of the Starship Yamato and her Wave Motion Gun literally had me turned to stone when first it slowly loaded and then unloaded a bajollion of tera joule on the poor planet turning it to dust, so much that even th death star superlaser did make much of a show compared. You can pull all the Black Knights you want, none will beat the awe I get when Vader steps in, and all the cloaked evil wizards of Voldemort's sort, still Palaptine scares me the most. So, there is this factor, to me at least, that gives Sauron an edge over each and every other Voldemort of the world. It's fiction, and it's moreover a fiction of two narrative universes whith very little to share, created by two different minds.
O

Must...resist urge to do a Harlock vs. thread....



I suppose generational factor is a degree, but even there, I'm willing to give the win to things from before AND after my primetime. I just can't even see the logic behind this one. There is NO FRIGGING WAY that Voldemort could stand a chance against Sauron. Especially with forces included.

I can give people other arguments. easily. BUt not this one.

[dehro]

and here is the point, really...
the 5 wizards of LOTR are maiar of near sauronlike horigin, status and, presumably, power.
voluntarily or after being conscripted, they have accepted to be sent to Arda where whey would be stripped of most of their power and lore..
doing so, they have taken the role of wizards and appear to be very powerfull.
Given that Sauron is of their same "race" and probably of higher power, and his powers have not been reduced by the valar other than what power Iluvatar decided could not exist on Arda, I assume he, one to one, is way stronger than Gandalf or Saruman... and can surelly qualify for wizard status and powers.
so Sauron is a wizard, in LOTR terms..and probably the most badass and powerfull around.

if all of the above is true, what does this give?
well..adding this to all his other feats, bonuses and allies, basically that he is probably much tougher than any single or group of HP wizards, scarred teenagers or battle-hardened aurors.
therefore I don't really understand what is the reason for pointing out that HP and co. are wizards ...
I mean..it is not as if Sauron, the balrogs and the Nazgul are muggles, is it?
they do wield quite some personal power, and I mean power other than just phisical...and it might not be magic in a HP sense, but it certainly is supernatural (and thus divine or at least magic, since muggles in LOTR don't drive cars) in Tolkien's view.
all of this, in my book, means that they are certainly able to counteract to most if not all of voldemort's magic and non-human allies...

And, seriously... I can't really see how Death Eaters could possibly stand a chance of not being utterly crushed by any one of the Nazgul...

[warty goblin]

If it sounded like I was saying that spells can't travel long distances, I am sorry for not explaining myself better. What I was demonstrating is that arrows are effective at longer ranges. Here's why I claim this:

A spell travels ~100 ft/second lets say (although this honestly seems pretty fast to me, given the range at which spells are dodged) and creates lots of light. . All this adds up to a target that is easy to see coming and avoid. An arrow travels at minimum three times the speed of a spell, is quiet, requires no command (non-verbal spells are pretty uncommon from what I can tell), and doesn't light up the scene like a rock concert. This suggests a far harder to avoid projectile, as well as one that can effectively be used from ambush without totally blowing your cover.

Let's take a wizard and an orc a hundred feet apart. The wizard has a wand and a decent knowledge of dueling magic. The orc has a bow, arrows, and a short sword for close combat, although the sword is pretty irrelevant. I'm assuming that the wizard cannot maintain a shield charm and cast offensive magic at the same time (since to my knowledge, no wizard actually ever does this.) At this range the wizard really has to hope to get lucky, since the orc can anticipate most of his attacks. All the orc needs to do is to shoot while the wizard is casting a spell (and thus not generating a shield charm). The wizard does not actually want to close very much with the orc, since if they do, they leave themselves open to evisceration if their spell misses before they can apperate or aim and fire again. Similarly retreating doesn't help much, since then their spells becom even less likely to hit, far more so than the orc's arrows. I'm not saying that the wizard wouldn't win, just that it would not be as easy as is being made out, and the chance for failrure is very real.

Now let's take the wizard against three orcs. Assume the orcs are standing fifty feet apart and are still a hundred feet from the wizard. If the wizard attacks any of the orcs, he leaves himself open to the others, and as I showed above, has a rather poor chance of actually scoring a hit. The orcs meanwhile just need to fire at the wizard, spacing out their shots to make it difficult for the wizard to stop shield charming and actually attack. At this point, I'd say the odds are relatively even. The wizard could Fiendfyre and hope to not get an arrow through their eyeball while casting the spell, then use the cover of the flames to escape, having managed to kill a grand total of three orcs.

With five spaced out orcs at the same range, the wizard is pretty much screwed. As long as the orcs keep their rate of fire decently spread out, anytime the wizard attacks they will likely be hit. Even if the hit is only a wound, it will probably leave them open for another hit or two, at which point they will be so badly wounded that they cannot apperate.

Conclusion: wizards might be able to decimate armies, but against a reasonably small force of opponents with conventional weapons who employ decent tactics, they will struggle, and occasionally get themselves killed. Voldermort is probably powerful enough to avoid this, but for the run of the mill death eater, things look pretty bad.

[Rutee]

Yes, Voldemort's team was beaten by 15-year-olds. But they were *wizards*, and they actually *had* been training as a military unit, unlike the Death Eaters whose duelling skills were incidental at the outset of their training. (This still has no effect on an orc battle, since orcs cannot magically counter the duelling components.)

Exactly WHEN were they training as a military unit? 'cause in the fifth book, they were only learning duelling skills, and learning the basics of fighting is only part of fighting as a unit. They weren't studying tactics, they weren't working on co-operation or communication. If this was later I might buy it, but not by then.

Sauron is a god in the mythological sense, not the theological sense. He is not an omnipotent panentheistic being - he's a person-thing with incredible abilities. Let's not start down the "He's a god THE End!!1" path again...

By this logic, Zeus isn't a threat either. What are you babbling about; Voldemort vs. Sauron in a duel *IS* the end. Voldemort loses. He. Needs. His. Death. Eaters. He doesn't stand a chance alone.

Yes, Sauron's team is huge, and he's a lesser god and has been around for thousands of years. But I've tried to take his powers and forces point by point, and I hope some feel I'm putting forth a serious effort to respond to criticisms. I don't feel Harry Potter would necessarily defeat anything thrown at it (like some people seem to feel about LOTR); but when someone is handed a win with little debate, I ask "...why?" I hope that's fair.

You've not done a very good job of it then. I already told you how I'd decimate the death eaters if it were just /me/. Repeat; I'm not an evil overlord with thousands of years of experience, just someone used to creative uses of magic in tactics.

The best scenario I can see for Voldemort would involve taking 5 death eaters or so deep into Mordor, with the rest of his troops fighting delaying actions. Death Eaters retreat the moment things get very bad. Draw troops out of mordor while he sneaks in. Once you're as close as one can be while Apparation still works, summon all the Death Eaters to myself (I assume that the Dark Mark allows them to teleport to him through picturing Voldemort himself). That's strategicaly.

Tactically, I don't see how to keep said Death Eaters alive against the Nazgul or any of Sauron's best potential Death Eater killers, short of keeping them in their bolt holes and letting the rest of the army get pounded.

[warty goblin]

And just for the record, I don't think that Sauron would defeat anything. The C'Tan for example...

[EvilElitest]

They did not turn a boat "into the sun"...

Hmmm, i thought the light of the trees was put in a ship, but maybe it was just a vessel

Eowen didn't need a magic sword to defeat the Witch King because it was Merry's sword that unbound the protections...

Debatable

I'd like to see the justification for the claim that the nazgul can touch something and make it spread the black breath...

Return of the King, Faramir is shot by the Nazgul, the arrows isn't fatal, and isn't enchanted, but was touched by the Nazgul and so he goes into a coma.

Harry DIDN'T avoid "every one" of Voldemort's spells, he got hit with plenty over the years...

Fourth book, duel at close range, Harry proves that it is possible to simple avoid almost all of Voldemort's spells

And finally...WHERE in LOTRO do we hear that "mind control" would affect the wise???

Well Saurman is corrupted by the Plantir, along with Denethor, Gladrail, Elrond and Gandalf both admit they would be taken over by the One Ring, general concept here?

(But Sauron will still win over Voldemort) ;)

True dat
from,
EE

[WhiteKnight777]

And just for the record, I don't think that Sauron would defeat anything. The C'Tan for example...

I think anyone with knowledge can agree that pretty much any race from Warhammer 40k/Fantasy would wipe the floor with either of these contenders.

[Ditto]

Zeus: Superhuman strength, lightning bolts, firebolts, earthquakes, control of weather, shapeshifting. Already a list of well-documented powers I'm thinking are quite formidable. You have to peel away several layers of language before you come up with the dubious 'Sauron has mastery over fire'. Also, Zeus is a different kind of god than Sauron in scads of ways. Zeus moves in heaven/hell, hobnobs and quarrels with his peers instead of dealing with humans (and is decidedly uninterested in the everyday goings-on down below), and has worshippers. That is perhaps the largest distinction of a 'true' god - Sauron is much more a titan than a god. Grouping them under that one word and equating them is a severe misnomer.

If a wizard is surrounded by three orcs, he leaves. Your scenario is suggesting the two combatants know precisely where the other is, which is another strange stipulation since the wizards aren't going to be standing around and launching spells, they launch spells and move away.

In HP terms, duelling is most of what combat is. Most wizards don't have regular, concentrated instruction in duelling. You don't move in formation and stack and clear rooms, you attack and defend in a variety of clever ways. Much of HP's versatility is in clever applications of nominally boring spells.

Given that Sauron is of their same "race" and probably of higher power, and his powers have not been reduced by the valar other than what power Iluvatar decided could not exist on Arda (False.), I assume he, one to one, is way stronger than Gandalf or Saruman... and can surelly qualify for wizard status and powers.
so Sauron is a wizard, in LOTR terms..and probably the most badass and powerfull around.
well..adding this to all his other feats, bonuses and allies, basically that he is probably much tougher.

These are the sorts of inferences that don't quite matter in this debate.

[warty goblin]

So you just admitted that three orcs can force a wizard to retreat? And you still maintain that wizards have a chance? And my example was hardly "surrounded", I put the orcs a hundred feet from the wizard, which is not so improbable that at some point during the war this would happen. I also thought I covered the apperation out of there angle, since if the wizard is apperating, they are not sheilding themselves, and therefore can be shot and killed. If the wizard apperates in closer, they are in even greater risk- three orcs charging from fifty feet will either kill or drive off a wizard with one or two casualties at most.

Also, orcs are not half bad at hiding IIRC,whereas wizards tend to apperate which makes popping noises, and generally are not skilled in moving silently. Apperition is a brilliant form of transport, but tends to put you in situations where you don't have great intelligence, meaning that a wizard might apperate right next to a concealed orc, and get shanked before they even realize it. This might not happen often, but Voldermort's body of hardcore supporters is not that large- every single death is significant. Sauron can lose a few hundred orcs and suffer no reduction in fighting ability.

And you still have not presented any way that Voldermort can actually win, just ways in which he can avoid being killed. It has been shown that Sauron is capable of weathering divine class magical powers. Pardon me, but Voldemort is a long way from divinity.

That said, I commend you for your excellent and well presented arguments for Voldermort. You really have done a very good job.

[WhiteKnight777]

(and is decidedly uninterested in the everyday goings-on down below)

Which pieces of Greek Mythology have you been reading? it seems like the gods spend all their time either

A. Seducing mortals

or

B. Watching mortals for amusement.

[Rowanomicon]

OK, Ditto, here's a change of pace.
Let's move away from the minions. You've proved that Voldemort would probably win in the Voldemort vs Orc battle.
How exactly are Voldemort and his minions going to take down Sauron? For that matter how are they going to take down the Nazgul? Then when they come back? How about when they come back again? Hey, the Death eaters could get full time jobs killing Nazgul. *Shudder* What a terrible job.

Also:
1) Saruman = on Sauron's team (not under direct control like the Nazgul, but he'd fight for him)
2) Snape = not on Voldemort's team

Oh yeah and just pointing out the non-definitive language in someone's post doesn't make Sauron any less powerful.
We know that he is more powerful than Saruman or Gandalf one on one.

[Rutee]

Let's move away from the minions. You've proved that Voldemort would probably win in the Voldemort vs Orc battle

He hasn't even proven /that/ =/
Warty Goblin's got a point. If, with 3 minions and a fairly commonly-occuring battle condition, the *best Voldemort's got* can be forced to run, I've been vastly overestimating how superior a Wizard is to an orc. I'm not even sure that Voldemort could win if he could get /everything/ he's got into a fight with Sauron..

And if we still have to prove who we think can win over our who we think would win this.. I nominate
Every RPG party in the history of the genre.
Sauron's just one demigod/god-ish-thing. That's.. pretty much par for the course. He'd rate as Final Boss, but still not /that/ great.

[Rowanomicon]

Yes, Sauron's team is huge, and he's a lesser god and has been around for thousands of years. But I've tried to take his powers and forces point by point, and I hope some feel I'm putting forth a serious effort to respond to criticisms. I don't feel Harry Potter would necessarily defeat anything thrown at it (like some people seem to feel about LOTR); but when someone is handed a win with little debate, I ask "...why?" I hope that's fair.

I'm sorry, but you really haven't done that good a job. I mean, you've done a pretty darn good job considering what you have to work with.
Anyway I'm pretty sure you're only legally allowed to call less than 20 pages of debate "little."
So, now that we've dragged this out forever and a day can we agree on a winner sometime soon?

I'm not even going to get into the "you think HP can't lose!" "Nu-uh, you think LOTR can't lose!" argument with you. Seriously, even if we're not all grown-ups can we at least act like it? Neither is unbeatable and this isn't even a HP vs LOTR or Rowling vs Tolkien thread.

[Ditto]

In re: Zeus - I didn't mean he doesn't like playing with humans, but he's never particularly concerned about the big picture stuff happening in human history. He favors a champion here or there because they're neat, not necessarily because he things the Myrmidons are His divinely-ordained people.

I have, indeed, admitted that three orcs (roughly) surrounding a wizard would force him to retreat. Or sit there for a few minutes until the orcs couldn't fire arrows non-stop any more, and take them out individually at that point. How is strategic retreat a bad idea? I don't know why the wizard ended up in the middle of those orcs in the first place.

I'm not dismissing the post because of non-definitive language, I'm just pointing out that a lot of Sauron's vaunted powers are described in vague terms and hearsay. "I am more powerful than you", while impressive for a trilogy's BBEG who never appears 'on panel', does not say much when we want to match points against points.

Killing Sauron once is enough. Isn't killing the Nazgul once enough, too?
Sauron can be killed by physical cutting. If we want to say he can ward off direct blast-assaults, fine. That wasn't really part of the plan anyway. A hail of dancing swords would probably be a problem for his physical form, wouldn't it? Or those animated trees? Or animated boulders? A burning touch can't kill an object like it can a hero.
For the Nazgul, there's no reason that a hex couldn't affect them. They cannot be harmed by mundane weapons, nor defeated by man. We've seen the liberal (or rather, extremely narrow) definitions of man for prophecy's sake, and that's manageable.
And we can't forget that if we protect the Witch-King with his prophecy, then Voldemort's stays intact as well.

Saruman fights in furtherance of getting the Ring. He never wanted Sauron to rule Middle Earth. Snape was totally on board with Voldemort until Voldemort killed his looooove (read: Lily threw herself on Voldemort's sword). He very much agrees with his philosophy, but got smacked upside the head with an attack of morality (in a crappy flashback sequence, no less) - and is still a Huge Wanking A-hole for the rest of his life.


In the end, agreed, Rowan. You're certainly not a fanboy I'm smearing with that Unbeatable!!1 statement. I've never followed a vs. thread to conclusion before... do they ever really have one? But we're covered most everything at this point, and the main points of contention remaining are either OACA or resolutely unbudging.

[EvilElitest]

Anyway I'm pretty sure you're only legally allowed to call less than 20 pages of debate "little."
So, now that we've dragged this out forever and a day can we agree on a winner sometime soon

Link's vs. Seph? 53 pages, i was on that one from page 9, don't complain.

Or the Grey guards, evil or not debate, that was 42, i was on from page 6,

As a veteran from the many miko threads, this isn't much
from,
EE

[The_Snark]

Killing Sauron once is enough. Isn't killing the Nazgul once enough, too?
Sauron can be killed by physical cutting. If we want to say he can ward off direct blast-assaults, fine. That wasn't really part of the plan anyway. A hail of dancing swords would probably be a problem for his physical form, wouldn't it? Or those animated trees? Or animated boulders? A burning touch can't kill an object like it can a hero.
For the Nazgul, there's no reason that a hex couldn't affect them. They cannot be harmed by mundane weapons, nor defeated by man. We've seen the liberal (or rather, extremely narrow) definitions of man for prophecy's sake, and that's manageable.
And we can't forget that if we protect the Witch-King with his prophecy, then Voldemort's stays intact as well.

I think we already agreed to leave prophecies out of it.

Killing the Nazgul once isn't enough because they return pretty fast with Sauron's aid (within a month or so), and the fight isn't over when a Nazgul dies; all you've done is temporarily set back a minion.

The Nazgul are thousand year old sorcerer-kings; that's the reason hexes aren't going to be the best way to fight them. They're better at their type of magic than you are at yours, and their type of magic is good at counterspells, and you have to contend with the supernatural terror they inspire, which is going to slow your reactions at the least.

Sauron could be killed by sharp objects, except

-When does anybody animate a hail of dancing swords, boulders or trees in Harry Potter? I don't recall that tactic ever being used in a fight, and if it were feasible to animate ten sharp objects and have them kill an enemy, you'd think somebody would have tried it.

-He can counter the animation spell. If the magic he employs is powerful enough, that'll destroy the objects.

Saruman fights in furtherance of getting the Ring. He never wanted Sauron to rule Middle Earth. Snape was totally on board with Voldemort until Voldemort killed his looooove (read: Lily threw herself on Voldemort's sword). He very much agrees with his philosophy, but got smacked upside the head with an attack of morality (in a crappy flashback sequence, no less) - and is still a Huge Wanking A-hole for the rest of his life.

Saruman had been pretty corrupted. He wanted the Ring for himself, but if Sauron had gotten it, he'd have taken Sauron's side in a flash. It wasn't his goal, but he sure wasn't doing a great job of working against it.

In the end, agreed, Rowan. You're certainly not a fanboy I'm smearing with that Unbeatable!!1 statement. I've never followed a vs. thread to conclusion before... do they ever really have one? But we're covered most everything at this point, and the main points of contention remaining are either OACA or resolutely unbudging.

I don't think they usually do end. Still, as these threads go, this one's been pretty courteous and well-reasoned.