Dark and Full Of Spoilers (GOT Season 8 Spoiler Thread Part 2)

[Requizen]

He will be dead by then. And Winds of Winter will remain unfunished.

They'll just let Sanderson finish it like he did for Wheel of Time. And we'll all be happier for it.

[Rodin]

They'll just let Sanderson finish it like he did for Wheel of Time. And we'll all be happier for it.

I, for one, am looking forward to Bran discovering the One Weird Trick with the magic system that lets him annihilate an army of whitewalkers with a DBZ power level.

Don't get me wrong, I like Brandon Sanderson. His finish to Wheel of Time was pretty decent. He is just the last person I want around a semi-realistic low magic setting like ASOIAF.

[Requizen]

I, for one, am looking forward to Bran discovering the One Weird Trick with the magic system that lets him annihilate an army of whitewalkers with a DBZ power level.

Don't get me wrong, I like Brandon Sanderson. His finish to Wheel of Time was pretty decent. He is just the last person I want around a semi-realistic low magic setting like ASOIAF.

I mean, isn't the point of the last two books that magic is coming back? Dragons, zombie armies, magic horns that destroy walls or charm dragons, wargs, resurrections, warlocks, glass candles, etc. If you were talking about the first couple books I'd agree with you, but it's pretty clear that magic will be a big deal in the coming finale.

Shows and ice javelins aside (since there's no indication that's something that happens in the books), aren't the Dragons and the Lord of Fire pretty much already tricks in the magic system that should instagib whitewalkers? A smart Dany/Jon alliance would use them to completely annihilate most of the army in strafing runs unless magic thrown projectiles are involved.

[Dr.Samurai]

I haven't read any Sanderson so I can't say if he wouldn't be a good fit as Rodin suggests, but I've heard good things about his work.

[Max_Killjoy]

I haven't read any Sanderson so I can't say if he wouldn't be a good fit as Rodin suggests, but I've heard good things about his work.

Read the first couple Mistborn books to get why some would balk at Sanderson finishing ASOIAF.

Sanderson is a good writer, but his approach to magic is usually "magic has rules, characters game those rules in novel ways to do insane things".

[Dienekes]

I haven't read any Sanderson so I can't say if he wouldn't be a good fit as Rodin suggests, but I've heard good things about his work.

He is a good fantasy author, who makes the most systematic and interesting magic systems. As such his plots and solutions usually hinge around the magic of his setting in unique ways.

Think of it more like super hero powers where the magic users have strict abilities because of well established set up to their powers. And then use those powers in unique ways that make the reader go “Wow! I never would have thought to use the power like that!”

This is pretty much the opposite of GRRMs style of magic which is dark, mysterious, the rules are vague, and often are used as a way to drive forward character development more than plot. Take, the amazing “hold the door” moment. We are not really given an explanation about how the green dreams work. What rules we get: don’t warg into people, the past cannot be altered. Are both directly broken by Bran for no adequately explained reason. But the scene is still fulfilling because the use of the magic comes at a great personal cost, the loss of Hodor and an understanding that Bran essentially ruined his life.

There is also the little problem that Sanderson respects GRRM immensely but doesn’t actually like Asoiaf, which in his words is far too mean to its protagonists and setting. He read the first book, heaped praise on GRRMs technique, characters, and mastery of the craft of writing. And never wanted to continue.

[Rodin]

He is a good fantasy author, who makes the most systematic and interesting magic systems. As such his plots and solutions usually hinge around the magic of his setting in unique ways.

Think of it more like super hero powers where the magic users have strict abilities because of well established set up to their powers. And then use those powers in unique ways that make the reader go “Wow! I never would have thought to use the power like that!”

This is pretty much the opposite of GRRMs style of magic which is dark, mysterious, the rules are vague, and often are used as a way to drive forward character development more than plot. Take, the amazing “hold the door” moment. We are not really given an explanation about how the green dreams work. What rules we get: don’t warg into people, the past cannot be altered. Are both directly broken by Bran for no adequately explained reason. But the scene is still fulfilling because the use of the magic comes at a great personal cost, the loss of Hodor and an understanding that Bran essentially ruined his life.

There is also the little problem that Sanderson respects GRRM immensely but doesn’t actually like Asoiaf, which in his words is far too mean to its protagonists and setting. He read the first book, heaped praise on GRRMs technique, characters, and mastery of the craft of writing. And never wanted to continue.

That's a good summary, to which I will add just a little bit.

Sanderson's main writing style is character driven stories. He's telling tales of Chosen Ones who have Big Adventures, and the socio-political landscape of his settings is a secondary concern at best. This works very well for his style of writing, which is basically superhero/anime put into novel form. There's a scene in the Mistborn trilogy I can't read without humming one of the Bleach battle songs to. It is absolutely antithetical to the way GRRM writes, where being the viewpoint character gives you a better than even chance of getting your head lopped off and the events in the story happen because the actions of dozens of people made things happen in exactly that way. It's an ensemble cast much greater than Sanderson is comfortable working with, something that showed in Wheel of Time as well.

And while he did manage to salvage WoT from where it had fallen apart to, he did it by breaking the magic system over his knee. Perrin having what can only be described as a DBZ battle in Tel'aran'rhiod. Weaponizing Travel portals in a way that would make Krillin proud. Using them to conjure lava, for crying out loud. It all got more than a little ridiculous, and that's in a world WITH high powered magic to begin with.

He's a good writer, and was probably the best pick to sort out WoT's kudzu. Those books were already in a similar vein to his own works - Chosen Ones with literal fate guiding their actions. But he is absolutely the wrong person for this series. Daenerys would probably wind up drawing on her dragon ancestry and leaping up to the balcony of the Red Keep in a single bound to punch Cersei through a wall, only for Cersei to get back up because Qyburn enhanced her with Mountain blood.

[Mechalich]

It's going to be a while before anyone else comes into to finish ASOIAF. WoT was a somewhat special case in that Jordan came down with an unexpected terminal illness and his health decayed with unexpected rapidity and he was firmly invested in the idea of someone, anyone, finishing the saga. Martin is on the record as not wanting anyone else to mess with his material so he not only will have to die first - which is hopefully not something that happens anytime soon - and sufficient time will have to pass in order for his estate/heirs to fell comfortable overriding whatever clauses he writes into his will regarding the completion of the series. That's probably 20+ years from now, and the landscape of active fantasy authors is likely to look very different from what it looks like today.

[deuterio12]

Bryndon, from what I've read and heard, did exactly what anyone would think if you tell them they have Greenseer powers, he used them to manipulate people/events and control stuff.

And even as the 3ER Bryndon apparently did this to get Bran to come to him and defeat the White Walkers.

But when Bran becomes the 3ER, he's detached from humanity and virtually useless.

That's only what Bran the Breaker wanted us to think and he clearly fooled most of the audience.

In the savage cutthroat enviroment of Westeros, the best scheming strategy is to not let anybody else realize you're scheming in the first place. In particular when you have long-ranged mind control abilities.

Seriously, what did you expect, that Bran the Breaker would openly announce "MUAHAHAHA TREMBLE BEFORE ME PUNY MORTALS I SHALL MIND CONTROL YOU IN BECOMING YOUR NEW KING oh why there's a poisoned dagger in my chest?"

No, keep a low profile until the rest of the competition is out of the picture. It's not like you need to trust anybody else to help with your scheming because long-range mind control powers and super scrying. Bran the Breaker already is his own spy network and whenever he needs a more direct pawn he can just mind control them or just cloud their target's mind at the right moment. Everybody else will think he's just looking at the past while Bran the Breaker's actually advancing his agenda.

[Max_Killjoy]

This must be the same as watching the first moon landing conspiracies take root...

[Rodin]

This must be the same as watching the first moon landing conspiracies take root...

Of course we didn't land on the moon. You can't land on a holographic projection that the government put up to hide that the moon cracked open birthing the dragons. Game of Thrones is just an elaborate cover to hide the dragons in plain sight until they're grown enough to fly back into space.

...It is known.

[Saintheart]

#DragonfireCan'tMeltSteelBeams
#IForOneWelcomeOurNewForestOverlords

[The Pilgrim]

Oh come on, of course the Moon landings were faked. If any american astronauts had attempted to set foot on the Moon back then, they would have been gunned down by the garrison of the nazi base Hitler set up there in 1948.

[deuterio12]

Of course we didn't land on the moon. You can't land on a holographic projection that the government put up to hide that the moon cracked open birthing the dragons. Game of Thrones is just an elaborate cover to hide the dragons in plain sight until they're grown enough to fly back into space.

...It is known.

"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be somethin' up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more mind-blowin' than that. You can almost never see the real moon, 'cause its appearance is deadly to humans. You can only see the moon's reflection. And the things that make reflections, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? So since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, all you gotta do is tear the heavens apart!"

[Friv]

That's only what Bran the Breaker wanted us to think and he clearly fooled most of the audience.

In the savage cutthroat enviroment of Westeros, the best scheming strategy is to not let anybody else realize you're scheming in the first place. In particular when you have long-ranged mind control abilities.

Seriously, what did you expect, that Bran the Breaker would openly announce "MUAHAHAHA TREMBLE BEFORE ME PUNY MORTALS I SHALL MIND CONTROL YOU IN BECOMING YOUR NEW KING oh why there's a poisoned dagger in my chest?"

No, keep a low profile until the rest of the competition is out of the picture. It's not like you need to trust anybody else to help with your scheming because long-range mind control powers and super scrying. Bran the Breaker already is his own spy network and whenever he needs a more direct pawn he can just mind control them or just cloud their target's mind at the right moment. Everybody else will think he's just looking at the past while Bran the Breaker's actually advancing his agenda.

I literally cannot tell if you're serious any more.

[Ramza00]

I literally cannot tell if you're serious any more.

That is the joke, except it is joke in one hand if you view it from one way, and not a joke and actual analysis of one of the ways the event could have unfold.

Perhaps Bran in the burning of King Landing episode did a subtle mental shift in Danyears. Perhaps Bran the Breaker whispered thoughts into Dany's ear (we seen this occur in the books) or influenced her emotions and that key words at the key time was enough to push her over the edge. Then in the next episode it was Bran the Breaker who flew the dragon away.

1) This could have happened with the storytelling superpowers we been introduced so far.
2) A writer could choose to write this type of story and it would be novel and interesting.
3) Nothing we see visually really contradicts #2

But the thing about #2 and #3 is there are so many interesting and novel ways you could write a story (#2), and as long as the text does not contradict it outright (#3) than we have ambiguity here. Effectively we got The Sopranos ending except the ambiguity is much more subtle.

This 13 minute video (plus 3 minutes credit) explains it better than I did here.



-----

I literally cannot tell if you're serious any more.

But here is the thing, is humans like to play with things so maybe it is not serious and maybe it is all a joke. Humans in the height of the British empire liked to read Alien Invasion literature (War of the Worlds 1897.) You see prior to War of the Worlds there was other Invasion Literature that was a fad for 2 decades after the publishing of the fictional story The Battle of Dorking (1871) where a fictional UK is invaded by Germanic people due to high speed war tactics. Well prior to The Battle of Dorking there was the real life Franco-Prussian war of 1870 to 1871 (6 month) and the victory of the Prussian (now the German Empire after the war) demonstrates new technology and fast moving tactics could dramatically change what is possible. Great video on this, Lindsay Ellis talking about these events and then the later 1990s Independence Days and 2005's War of the Worlds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KioF1sTQFtE

Humans like to explore ambiguity especially with superpowers for it makes us feel control and also we love discovery. Give a man superpowers like Bran has, and even if he does not use those superpowers for evil, some people will crave a dark ending where Bran uses those superpowers to win. And what is even more exciting than a dark ending, an ambiguous ending where we are never confident Bran the Breaker has played us all for fools.

It is the same reason why many people love stories where we are never certain if Xavier is mindraping the enemies to create peace for mutant and human kind. The dark Onslaught potential was always there (now that comic event was a mess, the potential was great but it needed a better showrunner to do the landing, aka sound familiar .)

[Pilka]

In my headcanon Bran is definitely the bad guy and planned it all along. Here's the ending as I envision it:


*** This picks up when Jon, Tormund and the other Free folk go north of the Wall and the gate closes behind them ***

THEME MUSIC SWELLS as bird’s eye view of Jon and the Free Folk leads into actual birds – a flock of ravens flying high above the land. The humans, tiny from this altitude, approach the tree line and are swallowed by the forest.

MATCHED CUT from a raven's eye into Bran's eye.

MUSIC DIES OUT. In a jarringly abrupt transition, all we hear is FOOTSTEPS and wheels SQUEAKING.

Podrick Payne is wheeling Bran through a hallway, past a pair of Kingsguards watching the door, and into his chambers. He wheels Bran to a table where a single candle is standing. Bran motions toward the curtains, and Podrick lights the candle, draws the curtains shut, then respectfully takes his leave. As the door closes behind Podrick, Bran turns toward the candle, mesmerized by the flickering light. His eyes TURN WHITE.

On Dragonstone, Drogon is gently placing Dany’s body at the same place where he first met Jon Snow. Suddenly, the dragon’s eyes TURN WHITE. Leaving the body in the grass, he flies away.

Back to Bran: he’s exhausted from finding Drogon, but also satisfied. A voice starts echoing in his head. It’s the Three-Eyed Raven.
“You cannot change the past. The ink is dry. The ink is dry. The ink is dry …”

Bran smiles. It’s a wicked, ominous smile. A “we shall see about that” smile. He places his hand above the burning candle, and winces in pain; his eyes TURN WHITE again. We next see a quick series of flashbacks of familiar scenes, in which Bran’s voice is speaking over some of the characters; this implies he’s mind-controlling them through time, they way he did with Hodor, and suggesting their words.

Flashback previously seen in Season 6, Episode 6: Aerys II Targaryen sits on the Iron Throne, eyes darting around, face worried. He speaks with Bran’s voiceover: “Burn them! Burn them all!”
CUT TO: Young Jaime Lannister stabbing Aerys II.

Flashback to Season 1, Episode 6: drunk Vyseris makes demands of Dany and Drogo. He speaks with Bran’s voiceover: “Tell him I want what was bargained for. He can keep the baby. I’ll cut it out and leave it for him.”
CUT TO: Drogo’s bloodriders seize Vyseris.

Flashback to Season 4, Episode 10: Tyrion Lannister and Tywin Lannister in the privy. Tywin speak with Bran’s voiceover: “Are you afraid of a dead whore?”. Tyrion shoots him.

Flashback to Season 4, Episode 9: Maester Aemon speaking to Jon Snow with Bran’s voiceover: “Love is the death of duty.”

Flashback previously seen in Season 6, Episode 10: Lyanna Stark dying on her birthing bed, speaking to her brother with Bran’s voiceover: “Promise me, Ned. Promise me you’ll keep him safe. Promise me.” CLOSE on Ned’s face. He’s deep in doubt and confusion. Finally, he nods.

Flashback to Season 8, Episode 4: Missandei held prisoner by Cersei’s forces on the walls of Kings’ Landing. Cersei speaks in her regular voice: “If you have any last words, now is the time.” Missandei responds with Bran’s voiceover: “Dracarys!”
CUT TO: Daenerys reacts as The Mountain beheads Missandei.

Flashback to Season 1, Episode 1: Bran standing on the window sill, Jaime holding to him. Jaime speaks with Bran’s voiceover: “The things I do for love.” He pushes Bran, and the familiar angle of Bran falling down CUTS TO BLACK.

Back to Bran: He still holds his hand in the flames, but there is no sign of pain on his face anymore. He closes his fist around the flame, smothering it and leaving the chambers in almost complete darkness, with only a sliver of light coming through the drawn curtains. CLOSE on Bran’s eyes. They now burn DEEP BLUE. He is the Night King, the Three-Eyed Raven, a Green-Seer, a Warg and a King all at the same time. We are screwed.

NIGHT KING THEME RISES.

Back to Jon and Tormund in the North: they slowly ride among the northern snowscape, rest of the Free Folk not far behind. Back to bird’s-eye-view, we see ravens following the group from up high for a moment, before their flock is swept aside by the rush of air from the beat of a giant wing. The dragon’s shadow is sliding on the ground, growing larger and racing closer to the humans. Closer and closer, the shadow is almost upon them as we …

CUT TO BLACK

CREDITS ROLL OVER NIGHT KING THEME

[Requizen]

After the end of most series: People write fanfic about what their favorite characters are doing now, or fanfic about things that would happen in prequels/background.

At the end of Game of Thrones: People write fanfic to retcon the ending because it makes no freaking sense.

[John Campbell]

Nope. A group of them (you can identify them by the curved swords) can be seen while Jon walks down the harbor with the Night Watch guardians (just before he stops to say goodbye to Arya, Sansa and Bran).

Huh, so there are. A couple of them, at least, just strolling around King's Landing (which seems in remarkably good shape for a place that just got razed by an explodium-breathing dragon) on foot(!), completely ignoring the dude who shivved the khaleesi.

As it is, it seems that the Dothraki are boarding the ships and are about to leave (many horses can be seen in the harbor just before this scene, when Jon looks down from the walkway), but it's not clear. So I don't know if the Dothraki are about to leave or not, but certainly they are there, and they seem to walk around free like some normal citizens who are minding their own business in the harbor.

Which is either ridiculous or interesting, depending on your view :)

Weird, at the very least. Especially after their existence was completely ignored by the Council of Named Characters.

The Dothraki had so little relevance to anything after their suicide charge that I'm not sure why they even had any of them survive that. They really could have benefited from having someone like Grey Worm to act as their face for the audience. Jorah was the closest thing they've had in recent seasons, and then he died.

[pendell]

Well, Jon Snow apologized.

I know, I know, it's fake and it's rude, but I still thought it hilarious

Respectfully,

Brian P.