Smash Bros. Ultimate - Now with Dragon Quest and Banjo-Kazooie!

[Zevox]

Good gods, but Nintendo could hardly be tailoring Smash Ultimate's DLC lineup more to my tastes if they were actively trying. First Joker, and now this.

So, Nintendo announced the next two out of Smash Ultimate's five DLC characters in their E3 direct. First up, The Hero - or more accurately, heroes - of the Dragon Quest franchise. The Luminary of DQ11 is the poster boy, but three others appear to be alts: Loto/Erdrick (depending on the version you played) from DQ3, and the heroes of DQ 4 and 8, who don't have titles like the other two. And literally every other hero from the franchise from games 1-10 appears in their final smash, helping them perform Gigaslash. So as someone who has played and largely enjoyed all of those games (except 10, which was a Japan-only MMO), that's pretty damned awesome. They're scheduled for release sometime in the summer. Strangely though we didn't really get a look at their stage, unless the brief glimpse of Yggdrasil from DQ11 is a part of it, which is unclear. I also find myself wondering if/hoping that, instead of a second color scheme, Loto and the DQ4 hero get their female alts. That would be a great touch, but with the character already having four significantly different looks I'm not sure if they'll go for it. Also, I find it pretty fun to think that they're joining a game that already features the likes of Cloud, Joker, and a bunch of Fire Emblem heroes. You can have quite the showdown of JRPG heroes from various gaming eras in Smash at this point.

And second, in straight-up dream-come-true territory for me, Banjo and Kazooie are actually joining Smash Brothers. Holy cow. I do not know what convinced Nintendo to actually do that, but I am so not complaining. They have been on my wish list since Melee, and I did not think it would ever happen, even with how many guest characters Ultimate has wound up with. They look great, too, with plenty of special moves from their games (including, surprisingly enough, the invincibility move), and the Jinjonator as their final smash. Plus of course Spiral Mountain for their stage with a great view of Gruntilda's lair, and it looks like Gruntilda and Bottles can both show up - Bottles presumably as just part of the background, though maybe Gruntilda will attack the players like other stage bosses. And good lord, is it good to hear their music again, and I so look forward to having more of that in Smash Brothers. They're releasing sometime in the fall, so further off, but I am more than happy to wait.

So yeah, holy crap. I'm starting to wonder if I might regret not just buying the full Fighter Pass, because they're three for three on characters I really want to get. About the only way they could make this lineup even more perfect for me is for the remaining two to be Dante and... I don't know, someone from the Tales franchise perhaps (Yuri Lowell ideally, though more realistic for general Smash fans is probably Lloyd Irving). It's actually getting hard to think of who else I might want for the game that isn't already either playable or an assist trophy.

[Bartmanhomer]

Oh cool. Next thing we know Waluigi is going to be a DLC.

[danzibr]

Huh. Yeah those are two nice additions. I’ll get ‘em for sure.

[Lord Raziere]

might pick up Banjo kazooie. I did play that game and Tooie...sort of....never finished either of them though...

also, does anyone have any recommendations orf where to start in the Dragon Quest franchise? people keep saying its good, but I never got one.

[Kitten Champion]

also, does anyone have any recommendations orf where to start in the Dragon Quest franchise? people keep saying its good, but I never got one.

You can play any of them in any order you want, the format hasn't changed too much from the beginning beyond graphical improvements, more and richer cinematic story-telling, and basic improvements to the UI and whatnot. It's some iteration of the hero of destiny, his/her party, and a demon king threatening a western fantasy setting, the quintessential ideal of a JRPG -- with minor tweaks as you go on.


You can skip I, II, and III. I mean, they aren't long sits to get through so you aren't going to be frustrated with them or anything, but there's just not much to them.

I would suggest the DS games for a start, Dragon Quest works well on portable systems. That's the remakes of Dragon Quest IV, V, and VI as well as the - then new - Dragon Quest IX.

Dragon Quest VIII was one of the best games on PS2, and the I'd recommend playing if you only had the time/money/inclination to play a Dragon Quest game and like JRPGs even a little. A great cell-shaded aesthetic, fun characters, great voice acting, an amazing musical score, and a pleasant adventure plot to follow. It's on the 3DS now I believe, it's also on mobile devices apparently.

Edit: I should say I haven't played XI, and X wasn't released internationally -- and is a MMORPG I know little about.

[SerTabris]

I think that good DQ starting points are probably IV and V. IV has an interesting system of individual chapters introducing the main party before they come together (with one as the hero with name and gender selection), while V has a strong multi-generational narrative. If you're looking to create your entire party, I'd recommend III. IV-VI are on DS, and all of I-VI have surprisingly good mobile ports (mobile IV in particular adds back in a party chat feature that was not translated for the DS version, but both versions of V have it). I don't know about the newest one, but the Switch version will have more features and is coming soon, so I'd wait for that one.

As far as the new characters go, I'm hoping for female protagonist options for the III and IV heroes. I think the only other characters that have something similar are the protagonists of FE Awakening and Fates, and don't both of them have that option? And it's not like the gender ratio of their roster is all that good. (Personally, the male DQ3 and 4 heroes just look wrong to me; I've never played as them in either game.)

[OracleofWuffing]

Giving my own take on Dragon Quest starting points, the choice between III and IV is when the series starts getting real good. I only speak from experience in the NES versions of those titles, but there's somewhat of a comparison between DQIII and DQIV to Final Fantasy 5 and Final Fantasy 6- one's technically superior, but the other one has some mechanics that are more fun to customize and offer different replay opportunities. DQI is worth a shot if you just want to see where it all started, but don't go into it expecting to be blown away- it wasn't competing with Final Fantasy, it was competing with Hydlide and Ultima III.

Dragon Quest II, on the other hand, is not good and has aged even worse than Dragon Quest I.

[Zevox]

also, does anyone have any recommendations orf where to start in the Dragon Quest franchise? people keep saying its good, but I never got one.

As the others mentioned, there's little to no connection between each Dragon Quest game as far as story or any sort of continuity goes, so any of them work in that regard. And honestly, the best (IMO of course) is also the most recent and readily accessible, Dragon Quest 11, so you couldn't go wrong picking that up. It's on the PS4 already, and coming to the Switch in September if you don't have that (and will have some extra content, so you may want to wait for it for that anyway, since there's no word about that getting released for us PS4 players as DLC or the like...).

After that, DQ8 was excellent and was previously the franchise's high point, and is a PS2 game originally. But a remake is also available on the 3DS - which is true of most of the series, in fact. There's remakes of every game from 4 through 8 on it, and DQ 9 is a 3DS original. Personally, as mentioned I think 8 is the best of those, and 4-6 are also quite good. 9 is a bit of a throwback to 3 in a way that I wasn't personally as fond of, especially following on the heels of 8, but still good. 7 is the only one I've never managed to finish, though I couldn't quite define exactly why for you, I've just always drifted away from it midway through. (10 is a Japan-only MMO, so not really applicable.)

Unless you still own an NES or Gameboy Color/Advanced, the only way to play the first three outside of Japan would be the mobile releases, but honestly since the series is fundamentally turn-based and menu-driven I'd imagine those should be fine if you want to go back to those (I've never tried those ports myself though). Honestly, if you like the rest of the series, feel free too. Their age will show, but if you're into the series, they'll still be fun. And it could be pretty interesting to go back to the first and see what the original, genre-defining JRPG was like, single character party and all.

Speaking of, just so you're clear on what the series is like, it's a very traditional, old-school JRPG franchise. If you've ever played Final Fantasy games, we're talking more akin to games 1 or 4 than anything 7+. Menu-driven turn-based combat, dungeon crawling, parties mostly composed of the usual RPG archetypes, black-and-white morality with worlds that need saving from dark lords by chosen heroes, the works. Which isn't to say there aren't any writing twists to it, there definitely can be, particularly the further you get into the series (11 is especially notable for this for reasons that would be extremely spoilery), but just know that's the general tone of most things and the style of gameplay, so be aware if that's the sort of thing you're likely to enjoy or not. There's even random encounters in most of them, though that was dropped in 9 and the games that came after it (including the 3DS remakes of 7 and 8).

As far as the new characters go, I'm hoping for female protagonist options for the III and IV heroes. I think the only other characters that have something similar are the protagonists of FE Awakening and Fates, and don't both of them have that option? And it's not like the gender ratio of their roster is all that good. (Personally, the male DQ3 and 4 heroes just look wrong to me; I've never played as them in either game.)

There's more than just Robin and Corrin that have that - the Pokèmon Trainer, Villager, Inkling, and Wii Fit Trainer are in that boat as well. Honestly, if we'd just gotten Loto as earlier rumors said we might I'd fully expect the female counterpart treatment the same as all of them have, it's mostly the fact that they've already made four completely different alts for the character, and the fact that they did not show off female alts in the trailer despite making a point to show all the others, that make me question whether they might have passed up on it this time.

Though to be fair, it wouldn't take much to change Loto to the female version. She wears the exact same outfit and it mostly hides the physique differences, so the biggest part is just the face and hair. The DQ4 hero, on the flip side though, looks very different from her male counterpart.

[deuterio12]

Damn when Sakurai said everybody is here he sure wasn't kidding. Even Banjo's coming back crawling after his failure time with Microsoft.

There's more than just Robin and Corrin that have that - the Pokèmon Trainer, Villager, Inkling, and Wii Fit Trainer are in that boat as well.

Fun fact, the different smash pikachus also alternates between boy and girl. You can tell by the tail, female pikachus have the black tip heart-shaped.

[Maryring]

... WELL THEN. I guess I'm buying the smash DLC season pack after all.

[Kato]

B&K really are a startling surprise but a pretty awesome one. I can't imagine the Japanese pushing hard for them but I assume the US branch somehow managed to include them. They even got Grant effing Kirkhope to do the music (his tweets from yesterday are great)
I mean, I'm not super nostalgic myself but it was a great game and I understand a lot of people being very touched.

Hero is more Meh to me. I know a few DQ games and I have nothing against them but they all feel a bit same-y and I'm going to assume like most main characters Hero is, well, a generic hero (?)
That's not to say the series isn't good or even less so crazy impactful, but I'm more hyped for Bear and Bird.

[tonberrian]

Banjo-Kazooie in Smash, this whole Nintendo-Microsoft partnership, got me thinking about Banjo-Threeie being possible again. I want to believe...

[Lord Raziere]

Banjo-Kazooie in Smash, this whole Nintendo-Microsoft partnership, got me thinking about Banjo-Threeie being possible again. I want to believe...

ugh, no, sorry but that name just doesn't work. I have this need to names sound better? I hope Banjo Kazoothree is possible as well but lets not hold our breath....

[Zevox]

B&K really are a startling surprise but a pretty awesome one. I can't imagine the Japanese pushing hard for them but I assume the US branch somehow managed to include them. They even got Grant effing Kirkhope to do the music (his tweets from yesterday are great)
I mean, I'm not super nostalgic myself but it was a great game and I understand a lot of people being very touched.

Hero is more Meh to me. I know a few DQ games and I have nothing against them but they all feel a bit same-y and I'm going to assume like most main characters Hero is, well, a generic hero (?)
That's not to say the series isn't good or even less so crazy impactful, but I'm more hyped for Bear and Bird.

That's probably where most fans outside of Japan are at, roughly speaking. Which actually makes the two a strangely great pair to reveal together when you think about it. Japanese fans get the DQ heroes to be excited for, while western ones get Banjo and Kazooie. And for those of us who happen to be fans of both, hey, bonus!

Banjo-Kazooie in Smash, this whole Nintendo-Microsoft partnership, got me thinking about Banjo-Threeie being possible again. I want to believe...

As much as part of me would like that, I doubt it'll happen after all this time of Microsoft showing zero interest in the franchise. And at this point, I don't think I'd trust Microsoft or modern Rare to do it well, either - remember that the last time they tried we got Nuts and Bolts. Maybe if by some miracle they let Nintendo develop it I could have some confidence in it, but I don't know if that would happen short of Microsoft just selling the IP to Nintendo.

A perhaps slightly more likely hope that I have is that Microsoft might let Nintendo release a Banjo-Kazooie collection on the Switch, either just as a virtual console thing or as an actual physical collection cartridge, if they see how many Nintendo fans still like the characters and those old games. Even with that though, I don't know how confident I could be that it might really happen...

[GloatingSwine]

A perhaps slightly more likely hope that I have is that Microsoft might let Nintendo release a Banjo-Kazooie collection on the Switch, either just as a virtual console thing or as an actual physical collection cartridge, if they see how many Nintendo fans still like the characters and those old games. Even with that though, I don't know how confident I could be that it might really happen...

Microsoft wouldn't "let Nintendo release" Switch versions of their games.

They'd just release them themselves.

Like they did with Minecraft and Cuphead.

(Hell, it's not out of the question that they might just stick the Rare Replay collection out on Switch. I bet people would buy that for Viva Pinata alone)

[Zevox]

Microsoft wouldn't "let Nintendo release" Switch versions of their games.

They'd just release them themselves.

Like they did with Minecraft and Cuphead.

Semantics. The point is that perhaps they'd allow the games to be released on a console that isn't theirs, when they normally wouldn't.

(Minecraft was multi-platform before Microsoft acquired it and is a bit too big for them to force it onto their own systems alone without major backlash, and Cuphead is an indie game, not a Microsoft one.)

[oxybe]

Dragon Quest Hero has a lot more resonance with me then Banjo. Not that I don't appreciate my Bear & Birb, but Dragon Quest along with Final Fantasy & Legend of Zelda on the NES (heck DQ is the only NES cart I still own, and one of two bits of NES stuff I still have next to my Zapper light gun) basically helped create my love of fantasy and RPGs. Seeing him in Smash represented in so many forms is basically a love letter to the series.

I do wonder though, and this is PURELY speculation... rather then echo fighters, maybe each DQ hero is a skin similar to Pikachu, Inkling and Villager?

The core attack moves of the character seems to be that of your average FireEmbro: swordy slashes and jumpy swordy slashes, playing footsies and cleaving his foes in twain. Nothing standout in that regard, but it's the huge variety of specials that interest me as they're seriously pulling from a big chunk of the DQ staples. I rewatched the reveal and saw that he didn't just have the DQ menu, but also a MP bar and each skill seems to have a different MP cost attached, so we might have a Inkling type situation where using your abilities will be depleting your resource bar and you have to refill it occasionally during the fight as a way to balance the character.

Looking at the moves they've shown for him (either through actual descriptions/name or just the usethereof) though I'm seeing:
-Frizz/Sizzle line as ranged projectiles.
-Woosh line as personal "get off me" AoE attacks.
-Zap line of spells for fast projectiles
-Oomph, a physical buff spell that doubles your attack
-Psyche Up, a spell that raises your "tension", which was an attack buff for your next attack
-Snooze, which uh... well puts the target to sleep
-Bounce, which is your "reflect magic" type of spell
-KaCrackle Slash, an ice elemental physical attack that in Smash seems to freeze someone
-Kaklang, which renders you invulnerable but also you can't perform actions.
-Zoom, a noncombat spells which returns the player to a town they previously visited.
-Kamikazee, which you sacrifice yourself to deal massive damage to your enemy

Note that we also saw what seems to be both Frizz and KaFrizz, it's powered up version. So we might be able to either charge up the spells for bigger effects or just choose better versions from the menus.

Zoom's (the "return to town from field" spell) inclusion as a spell you can cast is a bit interesting. This might mean a DQ hero with MP is probably not too worried about general off-stage recovery... maybe putting you onto the little hover platform with some invincibility frames as though you just respawned from a stock loss, but requiring you to have clear access to the skybox: if there is a platform or solid above you, you'll bonk your head and go back to falling in a stun state as the spell fails... which is what happens in DQ if you try to use Zoom inside a dungeon: you zip to the dungeon's ceiling and come crashing down after colliding with it as Zoom isn't a teleportation, just you flying to a known destination at ludicrous speed.

Some of those are interesting in how they might see play, especially if multiple can be found on one character: Snooze as a potential setup spell, Oomph and Psych Up as potential damage/knockback boosters akin to Incineroar's Revenge, Kaklang and Bounce as potential defensive options, Fizz/Zap as ranged options, woosh to provide a bit of space to work with, Kamikazee as a "whelp, i've largely lost this stock... **** the world!" and Zoom as a "Get back onto the stage" spells with some conditions applied...

Now, since we haven't seen the menu on more then just one DQHero we can't say for certain if each spell list is individually set to one in particular hero or if it's customizable akin to a Mii Fighter. Either way, DQHero seems to be closer to presenting himself as a D&D Gish then just another Swordbro, which I approve.

[Zevox]

I do wonder though, and this is PURELY speculation... rather then echo fighters, maybe each DQ hero is a skin similar to Pikachu, Inkling and Villager?

That is surely the case, yes. Each of these is one DLC character, not multiple, and the heroes weren't introduced and named individually, like when Richter was shown in the Belmont trailer after Simon. Plus they said before even announcing any DLC characters that they weren't going to do echoes for DLC.

Most likely each character is two of The Hero's eight different looks. The big question is whether Loto and 4 get their female counterpart for their second look, or just a recolor.

The core attack moves of the character seems to be that of your average FireEmbro: swordy slashes and jumpy swordy slashes, playing footsies and cleaving his foes in twain. Nothing standout in that regard, but it's the huge variety of specials that interest me as they're seriously pulling from a big chunk of the DQ staples. I rewatched the reveal and saw that he didn't just have the DQ menu, but also a MP bar and each skill seems to have a different MP cost attached, so we might have a Inkling type situation where using your abilities will be depleting your resource bar and you have to refill it occasionally during the fight as a way to balance the character.

Looking at the moves they've shown for him (either through actual descriptions/name or just the usethereof) though I'm seeing:
-Frizz/Sizzle line as ranged projectiles.
-Woosh line as personal "get off me" AoE attacks.
-Zap line of spells for fast projectiles
-Oomph, a physical buff spell that doubles your attack
-Psyche Up, a spell that raises your "tension", which was an attack buff for your next attack
-Snooze, which uh... well puts the target to sleep
-Bounce, which is your "reflect magic" type of spell
-KaCrackle Slash, an ice elemental physical attack that in Smash seems to freeze someone
-Kaklang, which renders you invulnerable but also you can't perform actions.
-Zoom, a noncombat spells which returns the player to a town they previously visited.
-Kamikazee, which you sacrifice yourself to deal massive damage to your enemy

Note that we also saw what seems to be both Frizz and KaFrizz, it's powered up version. So we might be able to either charge up the spells for bigger effects or just choose better versions from the menus.

Zoom's (the "return to town from field" spell) inclusion as a spell you can cast is a bit interesting. This might mean a DQ hero with MP is probably not too worried about general off-stage recovery... maybe putting you onto the little hover platform with some invincibility frames as though you just respawned from a stock loss, but requiring you to have clear access to the skybox: if there is a platform or solid above you, you'll bonk your head and go back to falling in a stun state as the spell fails... which is what happens in DQ if you try to use Zoom inside a dungeon: you zip to the dungeon's ceiling and come crashing down after colliding with it as Zoom isn't a teleportation, just you flying to a known destination at ludicrous speed.

Some of those are interesting in how they might see play, especially if multiple can be found on one character: Snooze as a potential setup spell, Oomph and Psych Up as potential damage/knockback boosters akin to Incineroar's Revenge, Kaklang and Bounce as potential defensive options, Fizz/Zap as ranged options, woosh to provide a bit of space to work with, Kamikazee as a "whelp, i've largely lost this stock... **** the world!" and Zoom as a "Get back onto the stage" spells with some conditions applied...

Now, since we haven't seen the menu on more then just one DQHero we can't say for certain if each spell list is individually set to one in particular hero or if it's customizable akin to a Mii Fighter. Either way, DQHero seems to be closer to presenting himself as a D&D Gish then just another Swordbro, which I approve.

My money on the special moves is that they're all available to any Hero, all the time. There's probably one that's the default for each move - possibly one for each that uses no MP, like Pysche Up and Zoom - and you can pull up the menu to pick the others by holding the button, similar to Shulk's Monado Arts, to pick the rest. So the Heroes basically have four moves on each special move direction. Whether MP can be recovered or not will be an interesting question, perhaps you only get that 100 mp per stock, or perhaps it can be recharged if you get a moment like with Inkling's ink.

It'll be interesting to see exactly how some of the moves work. Oomph and Psyche Up seem redundant at a glance as both are power-up moves, so I'll be curious how they differentiate those, for instance. And will Kamikaze actually kill you automatically, or just cause you massive damage? How do they make each of the damage/projectile spells feel meaningfully different? Does Zoom have an unusual effect like you speculated, or is it just treated as a recovery move like Inkling or Pit's up specials? Can Kaclang be thrown, or is it truly invincible - and will it be fast enough to go into and out of to be practical, or a functionally dead move? There's definitely plenty of questions here I'll be interested to see the answers to.

[oxybe]

That is surely the case, yes. Each of these is one DLC character, not multiple, and the heroes weren't introduced and named individually, like when Richter was shown in the Belmont trailer after Simon. Plus they said before even announcing any DLC characters that they weren't going to do echoes for DLC.

Most likely each character is two of The Hero's eight different looks. The big question is whether Loto and 4 get their female counterpart for their second look, or just a recolor.

I did a tiny bit of digging, to double check how many alt colours smash characters had (it's 8) and found what may or may not be a leak:

Spoiler: I didn't see this in the direct so i'm hiding juuuuuuust in case

Show

We have Erdrick, Loto, Luminary & DQ8 guy and they each have one alt colour, rather then 8 different DQ heroes in a koopa kids/pikachu/inkling/etc... with their alt colours referencing other DQs: Loto references DQ1 guy, Erdrick references DQ5's Abel, Luminary references DQ7's Angelo(the protag's best friend), DQ8 references DQ5's Terry.

My money on the special moves is that they're all available to any Hero, all the time. There's probably one that's the default for each move - possibly one for each that uses no MP, like Pysche Up and Zoom - and you can pull up the menu to pick the others by holding the button, similar to Shulk's Monado Arts, to pick the rest. So the Heroes basically have four moves on each special move direction. Whether MP can be recovered or not will be an interesting question, perhaps you only get that 100 mp per stock, or perhaps it can be recharged if you get a moment like with Inkling's ink.

It'll be interesting to see exactly how some of the moves work. Oomph and Psyche Up seem redundant at a glance as both are power-up moves, so I'll be curious how they differentiate those, for instance. And will Kamikaze actually kill you automatically, or just cause you massive damage? How do they make each of the damage/projectile spells feel meaningfully different? Does Zoom have an unusual effect like you speculated, or is it just treated as a recovery move like Inkling or Pit's up specials? Can Kaclang be thrown, or is it truly invincible - and will it be fast enough to go into and out of to be practical, or a functionally dead move? There's definitely plenty of questions here I'll be interested to see the answers to.

Their uses in the games are similar, but still pretty different. Oomph is a traditional duration-based buff, while Psych out raises tension, which akin to Incineroar's revenge, is a one-use boost to your next attack, only tension has different stages so the buff stacks with itself until it reaches it's maximum potential.

If I can be honest, I'd love it for Kamikazee to actually just SD you to deal massive damage to everyone around you, potentially based on how much damage you've taken.

I watched a few discussion videos on the reveal and some people are positing that Frizz/KaFrizz are your standard/charged neutral specials, Swoosh your default up special for recovery and Zap your forward/back special, with down special activating the skill menu.

As for MP recovery, I'm pretty interested in that too. Whether it can passively recharge like a Wario waft, requires input like Inkling's ink or is stock-limited like Robin's durability mechanic.

I will also say that I am thoroughly (and tongue in cheekly) disappointed they didn't use the two greatest DQ spell names: Hurt and it's improved version Hurtmore. DQ1 had a very utilitarian naming sense.

[Zevox]

I did a tiny bit of digging, to double check how many alt colours smash characters had (it's 8) and found what may or may not be a leak:

Spoiler: I didn't see this in the direct so i'm hiding juuuuuuust in case

Show

We have Erdrick, Loto, Luminary & DQ8 guy and they each have one alt colour, rather then 8 different DQ heroes in a koopa kids/pikachu/inkling/etc... with their alt colours referencing other DQs: Loto references DQ1 guy, Erdrick references DQ5's Abel, Luminary references DQ7's Angelo(the protag's best friend), DQ8 references DQ5's Terry.

Um, Loto and Erdrick are two names (or titles, technically) for the same character, the DQ3 hero. Loto is the name in Japan and in the NA Gameboy Color version of the first three games (hence why I use it, that's the version of those I played), and Erdrick the name otherwise used in the west.

Spoiler

Show

Anyway, it would be no surprise if the alternate colors referenced other Dragon Quest characters, but that all seems rather suspect. Partially because the names and games seem wrong. Trying to look them up, Terry is from DQ6, not 5; the DQ7 best friend is named Kiefer, not Angelo (Angelo is of course a DQ8 companion); and Abel as far as I can tell is someone from a Dragon Quest anime, not one of the games. And that seems like a pretty random assortment of references rather than referencing either other heroes that we otherwise only see in the final smash (I'm sure Japanese fans would love to have a color based on the DQ5 hero in particular), or perhaps companions from their own games.

Loto's alt referencing the DQ1 hero would be the only one that makes sense, given he is Loto's distant descendant. It would be disappointing not to get the female Loto and DQ4 hero though.

Their uses in the games are similar, but still pretty different. Oomph is a traditional duration-based buff, while Psych out raises tension, which akin to Incineroar's revenge, is a one-use boost to your next attack, only tension has different stages so the buff stacks with itself until it reaches it's maximum potential.

Oh, I'm well aware of how they work in the original games. They question is how they translate that into a fighting game like Smash, which doesn't have the turn-based nature of the originals to make Psyche Up and tension work. If you try performing repeated Psyche Ups in a Smash match, odds are you just get yourself hit, unless you've knocked the opponent quite far away already, in which case you're still probably better off chasing them and trying to finish them off while you have the advantage than performing power up moves. Which means directly translating the moves as they were probably just leads to Oomph outshining Psyche Up. So, what will they do about that? I'm curious.

As for MP recovery, I'm pretty interested in that too. Whether it can passively recharge like a Wario waft, requires input like Inkling's ink or is stock-limited like Robin's durability mechanic.

Uh, Robin's durability isn't stock-limited. She just gets her tome and sword back after a set amount of time if they run out of uses.

I will also say that I am thoroughly (and tongue in cheekly) disappointed they didn't use the two greatest DQ spell names: Hurt and it's improved version Hurtmore. DQ1 had a very utilitarian naming sense.

Really? That must have been the original version of the game, because I don't think that name was in the GBC version - pretty sure it was already using Blaze for the single-target spell names (and upon looking it up on GameFAQs, looks like I was half right - they called it Firebal [sic] and the improved version Firebane). I do remember the -more and -most endings for more powerful versions of spells from those, though my understanding is that was the result of poor localization, and the Japanese games always had the sound-effect based naming we see these days.

[tyckspoon]

Oh, I'm well aware of how they work in the original games. They question is how they translate that into a fighting game like Smash, which doesn't have the turn-based nature of the originals to make Psyche Up and tension work. If you try performing repeated Psyche Ups in a Smash match, odds are you just get yourself hit, unless you've knocked the opponent quite far away already, in which case you're still probably better off chasing them and trying to finish them off while you have the advantage than performing power up moves. Which means directly translating the moves as they were probably just leads to Oomph outshining Psyche Up. So, what will they do about that? I'm curious.

Chargeable Smash-like attack, like how neutral special works for most of the Fire Emblem characters? Closest reflection I can think of to 'stand still Psyching for several turns, then unleash one huge hit' in Smash - you stand in one place charging up the attack for several seconds, and then if something happens to still be in the way you unload on them. Oomph would then be 'for the next X seconds your attacks do increased % damage/don't suffer reduction for spamming/increased knockback' or similar.

[Porkslope]

I just love to drink the salty tears of people complaining that yet another anime swordboy got into Smash.

[Zevox]

Huh. So, it looks like all of the DQ Hero's alternate color schemes are up on the official website (click on his big portrait to cycle them), and it looks like the listing oxybe gave is jumbled but partially accurate. No female alts, sadly. Instead we've got:

Luminary: red alt with white hair, clearly based on DQ8's Angelo.
Loto/Erdrick: white and purple alt, clearly based on the DQ5 hero.
DQ4 Hero: Blue and orange alt, probably based on the DQ1 hero.
DQ8 Hero: Blue and grey alt with white hair, probably based on DQ6's Terry (or possibly the Dragon Quest Monsters protagonist, who looks very similar).

Have to say, as much as I approve of the Angelo alt (which works surprisingly well with the Luminary's design) and none of them look bad at all, I am a bit disappointed by the lack of female alts for the two who had them.

Chargeable Smash-like attack, like how neutral special works for most of the Fire Emblem characters? Closest reflection I can think of to 'stand still Psyching for several turns, then unleash one huge hit' in Smash - you stand in one place charging up the attack for several seconds, and then if something happens to still be in the way you unload on them. Oomph would then be 'for the next X seconds your attacks do increased % damage/don't suffer reduction for spamming/increased knockback' or similar.

Hm, I guess you could do that, but that would be pretty bland and not very good mechanically. Those kind of chargeable moves tend to only get used uncharged most of the time, since taking the time to charge them is very impractical and nobody is likely to let you land them if you try it. Which is kind of the opposite of Psyche Up, which did so little at the base charge that you only used it it you intended to go to stage 3 or 4.

I just love to drink the salty tears of people complaining that yet another anime swordboy got into Smash.

While I don't agree with the sentiment, I do agree that that is a dumb complaint some people have. I mean, swords are the most common melee weapon in video games and there's a whole lot of sword-wielding characters out there that people like, so of course a bunch end up in Smash - starting from Link in game 1.

[DaOldeWolf]

I am actually surprised that it was an easy deal to get Banjo. One would think the main competitition would be a bit more relunctant. I suppose it speaks of how big smash is.

As for the buff moves from the dragon quest char. I can actually think of another character that buffs themselves in battle, Wii Fit Trainer. Maybe, it will work like that?

I am intrigued about the rotating Spiral Mountain stage. How will it work?

[deuterio12]

While I don't agree with the sentiment, I do agree that that is a dumb complaint some people have. I mean, swords are the most common melee weapon in video games and there's a whole lot of sword-wielding characters out there that people like, so of course a bunch end up in Smash - starting from Link in game 1.

But that's the thing, Link was the only sword user out of 12 playable characters.

While nowadays we got:
-3 Links
-7 Fire Emblem sword users Marth, Roy, Lucina, Chrom, Ike Corrin, Robin, with the first 4 being pretty close clones (and not a single axe/spear/pure mage character from that franchise)
-Meta Knight.
-Shulk.
-Cloud.
-Mii Swordfighter
-Hero.


Not even counting Gandonorf who decided to join the sword club too and both Pits who have those fancy double swords.

So the percentage of sword-using characters in relation to the total rooster more than doubled since the first game.

And a good chunk of those sword characters movesets are just swording (looking at you Cloud, did you forget to bring any materia?)

And again you'll notice a lack of axe/spear heros. Where's my playable Hector and Tiki and Ephraim?

At least the new FE protagonist from Three Houses seems like they'll have axes as default weapon so Sakurai may finally add one of those.

[Zevox]

I am intrigued about the rotating Spiral Mountain stage. How will it work?

If you watch the characters themselves during that part of the trailer, I don't think the stage is actually rotating. They seem to stay on the same plane related to each other. It's just fancy camera work to show off the stage's design.

But that's the thing, Link was the only sword user out of 12 playable characters.

While nowadays we got:
-3 Links
-7 Fire Emblem sword users Marth, Roy, Lucina, Chrom, Ike Corrin, Robin, with the first 4 being pretty close clones (and not a single axe/spear/pure mage character from that franchise)
-Meta Knight.
-Shulk.
-Cloud.
-Mii Swordfighter
-Hero.


Not even counting Gandonorf who decided to join the sword club too and both Pits who have those fancy double swords.

So the percentage of sword-using characters in relation to the total rooster more than doubled since the first game.

...so what? All that means is that the initial roster was surprisingly short on characters using swords compared to how common they are among video game and Nintendo-specific main characters.

And again you'll notice a lack of axe/spear heros. Where's my playable Hector and Tiki and Ephraim?

There's obvious reasons for those though. Tiki is a secondary character, Ephraim isn't noteworthy in the franchise at all aside from his status as the sole spear-wielding Lord, and Hector is overshadowed by Eliwood in importance to his game and Lyn in popularity - and even Lyn only manages assist trophy status. There's too many other Fire Emblem characters that are more noteworthy to the series' history or more popular (or both), all of whom are sword-users because the vast majority of Fire Emblem's main heroes are. Plus Roy and Corrin, who were initially thrown in for advertising purposes and left in because Everyone is Here.

At least the new FE protagonist from Three Houses seems like they'll have axes as default weapon so Sakurai may finally add one of those.

You haven't been paying very close attention to Three Houses, have you? The main character is Byleth, the new player customizable character, who very much uses a sword, at least by default. The axe-wielder, Edelgard, is one of three major secondary characters who is the most important character from her nation/house, along with Dimitri (a spear wielder) and Claude (an archer) as her counterparts for the other two houses. If for whatever reason we had a Three Houses character added - which probably wouldn't happen until the next game or a second DLC pass, given Reggie's remarks after Joker's reveal strongly implied that the entire Fighters Pass would be third-party guests, and so far that appears to be true - it would almost certainly be Byleth, not Edelgard (or Dimitri or Claude), since they're the actual lead character of the game. Same reason why we got Corrin, not Xander or Ryoma, for Fates.

[DaOldeWolf]

If you watch the characters themselves during that part of the trailer, I don't think the stage is actually rotating. They seem to stay on the same plane related to each other. It's just fancy camera work to show off the stage's design.

I dont know. For me it looks like the characters and ítems are moving while being static in place.

Now that the Microsoft speaking with Nintendo last e3 has bear fruits, I can only wonder if the talk with Bethesda got anywhere.

[deuterio12]

If for whatever reason we had a Three Houses character added - which probably wouldn't happen until the next game or a second DLC pass, given Reggie's remarks after Joker's reveal strongly implied that the entire Fighters Pass would be third-party guests, and so far that appears to be true - it would almost certainly be Byleth, not Edelgard (or Dimitri or Claude), since they're the actual lead character of the game. Same reason why we got Corrin, not Xander or Ryoma, for Fates.

You haven't been paying very close attention to Super Smash Brothers or actually released Fire Emblems, have you?

We got all of Robin, Lucina and Chrom from Awakening, and the second one spends half the original game cosplaying as Marth while being unplayable and the third one started as part of her final smash. If Three Houses and Axe Lady proves popular enough (Fates wasn't that well received), Edelgard has a pretty good shot.

[Zevox]

You haven't been paying very close attention to Super Smash Brothers or actually released Fire Emblems, have you?

We got all of Robin, Lucina and Chrom from Awakening, and the second one spends half the original game cosplaying as Marth while being unplayable and the third one started as part of her final smash. If Three Houses and Axe Lady proves popular enough (Fates wasn't that well received), Edelgard has a pretty good shot.

If Three Houses turns out to be as popular as Awakening, perhaps that could happen, yes, that's true. Awakening was probably the single most popular game in the franchise though, so I don't think that's something that's safe to just assume is reasonable now, before its release.

[Razade]

Considering, last I knew, that the party line on the DLC characters were "none from games already represented" they'd need another DLC to hit any new character released around or after the release of Ultimate. That's possible, Dataminers found 16 empty character slots and two of those are now filled with the Piranha Plant and Joker. That doesn't mean we're going to have 90 characters in the game of course, there's lots of reasons why they'd have empty slots beyond what they intended to fill up for a whole load of reasons and they're not limited to that number even if they fill it for a lot of the same reasons. Just an interesting thing to note. Persona was a strange move for them so at this point...anyone from anywhere is free game.

I'd honestly rather see some indie characters getting involved. Shovel Knight is an assist but it'd be cool to see him included in the official game. The main character from Hollow Knight would be equally cool and the moveset seems like it'd be pretty simple to work in with the moves it has in the game. The people behind Cuphead have mentioned their interest in seeing Cuphead in the game. Cadence from Crypt of the Necrodancer seems a likely choice if they were to go the Indie route, what with Cadence of Hyrule coming out to some pretty good acclaim. I'm sure there are more that I'm just not thinking about this early, but any of those seem like good possibilities and I'd be cool with any or all of them joining the ranks.

Muchado has been made about Steve from Minecraft...not thrilled on that prospect to be honest. The Doom Marine is another presumed character and I feel much the same as Steve. We knew The Hero was coming when Joker was announced, datamining being a thing. That dataminer got some things wrong. Mostly about the release of P5 on Switch and how the stage would operate. It also indicated Ryu Hiabusa would be in along with Doom Guy and Steve. The last bit seems way less certain. Not just because the info they leaked about Joker was incorrect but also a lot of the info they had on The Hero was wrong. They indicated a female version as an alt skin for instance. They also didn't have Banjo on that list, and with three other names involved...at least one or all of them have to be wrong. Time will tell who the last two characters will be I suppose. Wish they'd just have told us at E3 and been done with it though.