The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

[Remuko]

and I argue that if not seen from a tier point of view but from a "is it a full caster" point of view than a chronotryn gets enough slas + spells to be considered a full caster.
It can also be considered a gish.
I think it should be la +0 when you estimate it as a full caster and la +a lot when considered a gish.

ive already voted, but I wanted to quote this to emphasize this point.

That last line is how I see it. Compared to a full caster its +0. Compared to anything else, its +LA so much its unplayable. This thread is about making things playable. To me the former is the only reasonable option.

[DeTess]

ive already voted, but I wanted to quote this to emphasize this point.

That last line is how I see it. Compared to a full caster its +0. Compared to anything else, its +LA so much its unplayable. This thread is about making things playable. To me the former is the only reasonable option.

The funny thing is that I agree with this overall sentiment, but flip the other way on my rating. I've got it at +3 because I believe it's fine at ECL20 when compared to Tier 3's and gishes, and would be -0LA when compared to most optimized full casters because it loses too many caster levels.

I understand why people would flip the other way though, and I think this monster is very interesting in that regard.

[Caelestion]

Compared to a high-level full caster, almost anything is LA +0. We're about making monsters playable, not just wasting our time deciding whether a full caster with shapechange is better or not.

[HeraldOfExius]

I'm going to vote +2. If it was only missing one or two levels of sorcerer, then I might be willing to think of it as "sorcerer + PrC," but losing five levels of casting pulls it down to "bard-like casting."

[No brains]

I haven't had a lot of experience with high-level play, but it's my understanding that 17th level is when things get all Baron Munchhausen even without playing a weird time-bird. I'm tempted to say +0 since 8 turns of setup on round one is something an elf could do with only a blander build and moxie.

[Thurbane]

I've kind of been feeling like we don't really need to control what point of comparison people are using. I think our results would be more representative of the community as a whole if we let everyone vote from whatever set of perspectives and assumptions seem to fit best with their own personal experience.

Compared to a high-level full caster, almost anything is LA +0. We're about making monsters playable, not just wasting our time deciding whether a full caster with shapechange is better or not.

Excellent points, IMHO.

You'll never get 100% consensus on exactly how we apply our metric, so if you let each person follow their own guidelines, the results should average out.

It's just that some people get so darn cranky if others don't fall inline with their rankings.

[noob]

Compared to a high-level full caster, almost anything is LA +0. We're about making monsters playable, not just wasting our time deciding whether a full caster with shapechange is better or not.

there is exception such as creature with cl>hd(it is not that much rare)

[Dimers]

You forget at will teleport without error(which can teleport allies because there is not the usual restriction teleporting monsters have) and plane shift one time per day.
I say that all that adds up to being comparable to the amount of spells a fullcaster that is not thinking hard about spell selection would get.

In addition to those, spellcasters often choose skill-buffing spells which the chronotyryn won't need because it's already got skills, and flight which the chronotyryn already has, and there are spells which improve action economy, and there are spells that give energy resistance/immunity ... et cetera. The fact that Mr. Birdie gets so many passive abilities just means we're comparing against a full-caster who has already given herself some undispellable all-day buffs.

Plus at-will feeblemind, which (contrary to popular belief) does have uses in high-level play.

[Debatra]

I'm also going back and editing the post I voted in, but I also want to say here that I'm changing my vote to +1.

[Thurbane]

Not directly related to current discussion, but I can't remember whether I've mentioned this before or not. From the online adventure An Icy Heart (3.0):

Item: Amulet of Freedom of Speech
This amulet allows the wearer to verbally communicate despite lacking the physical ability to do so. For example, an awakened animal or plant that could not normally form words can do so while wearing this item. Note that the amulet does not impart any language ability—the wearer must have something to say.
Caster Level: 7th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item; Market Price: 5,000.

Would this allow things like the Caryatid Column or Visilight to speak normally (assuming the Visilight has a neck slot ) ?

[Remuko]

Not directly related to current discussion, but I can't remember whether I've mentioned this before or not. From the online adventure An Icy Heart (3.0):


Would this allow things like the Caryatid Column or Visilight to speak normally (assuming the Visilight has a neck slot ) ?

I cant see why not. Anything with a language or enough int to know 1 (or more languages) should be able to speak when using that, regardless of their biology (or lack thereof?). Neat item.

[Inevitability]

Chronotyryn votes!

+0: 8 votes
+1: 4 votes
+2: 9 votes
+3: 10 votes

Average vote is +1.68.
Median vote is +2.
Modal vote is +3.

I think the best compromise based on all those diverse opinions is +2, though it's a pity no possible value perfectly covers everyone's preferences.

Side note: in the archive bralani eladrin is mispelled as bralini.

Also fixed this! Only noticed it when counting votes.

[DeTess]

Chronotyryn votes!

+0: 8 votes
+1: 4 votes
+2: 9 votes
+3: 10 votes

Average vote is +1.68.
Median vote is +2.
Modal vote is +3.

I think the best compromise based on all those diverse opinions is +2, though it's a pity no possible value perfectly covers everyone's preferences.

I'm okay with that compromise. In general I think median probably works best for finding a middle ground, as it tends to exclude any outliers and makes manipulation through intentionally over- or undervaluing the LA to get the value you want a lot harder.

[Inevitability]

hey so anyone with arachnophobia might want to not open that spoiler

Chwidencha

Spoiler

Show

Chiwis are terrible spider-like monsters. They're large-sized and have 12 aberration RHD, with good physical stats, okay wisdom, and terrible intelligence/charisma.

Aside from their horrifying appearance, they're pretty standard monsters though. They get some natural attacks with improved grab and constrict, a burrow speed, tremorsense, and a completely arbitrary sonic vulnerability, and that's about it. Not much worth using, especially not at level 12. And that's before getting into the difficulties of using loot, interacting with NPCs, of fighting anything that you can't grab. -0 LA.

[DeTess]

I mean, these things could have some niche use if your DM is an arachnophobe and you use miniatures/tokens on a map. After all, what better defense than a DM refusing to even look at the location of the map your PC is on.


But if we assume 'preying on the DM's OC fears' is off the table, then these are a -0.

Also, Inevitable, could you maybe put that image in a spoiler? I'm not really an arachnophobe, but that picture gives me the shivers.

[AMX]

hey so anyone with arachnophobia might want to skip this one

Maybe it would be better to also spoiler-tag the image

[Celestia]

Really? How is everyone so freaked out about this? I am terrified of spiders, but that thing just looks ridiculous. It's a random mass of legs. It's dumb and silly, not scary.

[Blue Jay]

Really? How is everyone so freaked out about this?

Yeah, I'm with Celestia. We managed to get through dozens of demons and devils, multiple discussions about things like murder and ritual sacrifice, all of Heroes of Horror and even the frickin' penis worm without batting an eye, and now we get a trigger warming on a silly-looking spider beast? In October!?

That's kind of depressing to me, since a not-inconsiderable portion of my life's work has been trying to convince people that spiders aren't evil and scary.

Oh well: it will always be an uphill battle, I suppose. Y'all should go here (or Google "Lucas the Spider" if the link doesn't work, since I'm on my mobile).

Oh, and LA -0 for the chwidencha. Is the one from Drow of the Underdark identical, or did it get an update?

[Efrate]

-0 for leg thing. Boring bruiser with too many bad hd.

Spiders are great, they eat flies and mosquitoes, cutting down massively on diseases of all sorts and annoyances. When a mosquito is NOT buzzing in your ear, thank a spider. Or possibly a bat. Who also are generally adorable.

Plus this guy is adorable and always cheers me up.
https://mymodernmet.com/uda-dennie-s...aterdrop-hats/

[Debatra]

-0 for the unnecessary trigger warning on legs, and +1 to Blue Jay's explanation of why it's silly.

[Zaq]

The Chwidencha
A play in two acts

Artist: I made a monster
Designer 1: Yeah, but could it have more legs
Artist: Like this
Designer 1: No, more legs
Artist: I got u fam

---

Designer 1: What do you think of the name for this new monster
Designer 2: I dunno, I feel like it’s too pronounceable
Designer 1: What about this
Designer 2: Can you make the mouthfeel worse
Designer 1: I got u fam

Curtain

[Covenant12]

LA: -0 For something created on one of Lolth's bored but not overly creative days?

12 Aberration RHD is a lot, and it doesn't come with nearly enough. No real versatility at level 12, no skills, grappling is questionable at this point and it isn't really good at it at ECL/CR 12. Damage not near an orc barbarian, honestly much worse with any DR encountered.

I appreciate the numerical analysis of Chronotyryn, likely a good idea.

[ViperMagnum357]

LA -0 on the big bag o' Legs. There is nowhere near enough to make up for eating 12 Aberration RHD.

[Netbrian]

LA -0, even if you can somehow convince your DM to let you use a different set of magical boots for each pair of legs.

[ZamielVanWeber]

-0. The DotU one tries, but this one is just too bland to account for a melee beast with 3/4 BAB and no buff spells.

[No brains]

I got your back on the warning, Inevitability. Arachnophobia is not a logcial fear. It doesn't matter if spiders are actually dangerous. A pit fiend may be able to kick the crap out of me, my friends, my house, our souls, and maybe even lesser angels, but for all that its not... 'icky' the way an arachnophobe sees spiders.

Phobias are like your mind lagging from sending too many requests for 'what the heck is that?' and 'will it bite me?' When I see a sleek CR 20+ ideological threat to my soul, I KNOW the answer to both those questions.

[Lans]

Chronotyryn votes!

+0: 8 votes
+1: 4 votes
+2: 9 votes
+3: 10 votes

Average vote is +1.68.
Median vote is +2.
Modal vote is +3.

I think the best compromise based on all those diverse opinions is +2, though it's a pity no possible value perfectly covers everyone's preferences.

Moving backwards, what would be an appropriate base race comparision to an LA+2 Chronotyryn/X1?

[Blue Jay]

I got your back on the warning, Inevitability. Arachnophobia is not a logcial fear. It doesn't matter if spiders are actually dangerous. A pit fiend may be able to kick the crap out of me, my friends, my house, our souls, and maybe even lesser angels, but for all that its not... 'icky' the way an arachnophobe sees spiders.

As far as I'm aware, the only treatment for arachnophobia that's actually effective is exposure therapy.

[Efrate]

TBH I had a mild form of arachnaphobia and the thing that cured me was letting my biology teachers rose tarantula crawl on me in high school. It worked.

[dhasenan]

As far as I'm aware, the only treatment for arachnophobia that's actually effective is exposure therapy.

Exposure therapy involves a trained therapist giving you a safe environment to observe or interact with the thing that's giving you trouble, in controlled and managed doses tailored to the individual's ability to handle it, on a schedule of increasing levels of interaction, with your prior knowledge and consent. Congrats on becoming my therapist!