OOTS #1171 - The Discussion Thread

[Aquillion]

I’m pretty sure Hilgya’s actions in this comic are the absolute definition of dishonorable.

The Hilgya ending I want: the death worm kills Hilgya as she’s walking away. Hilgya appears in Hel, in Hel and Loki’s presence. Loki ignores her and leaves Hel without her.

Loki specifically said she was embodying his teachings. And the whole point of worshiping Loki is that you don't have to worry about whether your death is honorable or not.

[Peelee]

Loki specifically said she was embodying his teachings. And the whole point of worshiping Loki is that you don't have to worry about whether your death is honorable or not.

According to a sole source who may or may not be correct.

[Dion]

Loki specifically said she was embodying his teachings. And the whole point of worshiping Loki is that you don't have to worry about whether your death is honorable or not.

And you just saw the superhuman effort Loki make to retrieve his souls from Hel.

We saw on panel that he cant be bothered to retrieve even a single worshippers that died in the last century. The chance that he’s going to bother to retrieve Hilgya from Hel are somewhere between zero and zed.

[Fish]

I don't believe the Firehelm clan is a main character of the book, nor that it ever proposed to Hilgya.

You cannot possibly imagine that who Hilgya is, and what motivates her, is not pertinent to Durkon’s arc. Durkon’s mantra is to do what is right, especially if it makes him unhappy, including marry Hilgya; ergo, her part in the story is not done. I credit you with having the intelligence to tell the difference between liking the character and detecting that her narrative role is not complete.

I care what happens to Hilgya the same way I care what happens to Grubwiggler.

If you could just point me to the part where I said this is about caring for Hilgya, that’s be great. I don’t remember saying any part of your strawman except “Hilgya.”

This is about what I think is likely, vis a vis Hilgya’s abrupt departure.

[Peelee]

You cannot possibly imagine that who Hilgya is, and what motivates her, is not pertinent to Durkon’s arc. Durkon’s mantra is to do what is right, especially if it makes him unhappy, including marry Hilgya; ergo, her part in the story is not done.

Durkon did do what he thought was right, and offered to marry her. The offer was rejected, to put it lightly. Her part seems pretty done to me.

[Psyren]

Not really, the Alignment spectrum actually boils down to two very simple tilt scales that together make a TON of nuance and detail.

Good to Evil cares about your views on the good of others vs the good of yourself. A purely Good person would always help someone else even if it hurts them. A purely Evil person will do whatever it takes to get what THEY want even if it hurts others.

There's no requirement to not care about friends and family, not be able to cooperate if needed. It's just all about self interest. Loki is Evil because his tenet is always do what's best for him. Only he matters. He loves his brother sure, but if it came down to his brother or him dying, bye Thor. He cares about his Priests, so long as their care has benefit to him and doesn't hinder. Etc, etc.



No, it's evil. For the above reasons. Law to Chaos only cares about your view on personal freedom vs society.

Disagree - Hilgya has no particular responsibility to any of these people. Risking her life for theirs would be Good, but not doing so is Neutral, not Evil. Meanwhile, bailing on the mission as a whole simply because she feels like it is definitely Chaotic.

[Aquillion]

And you just saw the superhuman effort Loki make to retrieve his souls from Hel.

He specifically says that he doesn't care because "hardly any of these were mine anyway", implying he would care if this was mostly his.

(I think another implication of this is that Hel doesn't end up getting very many disputed souls that would otherwise go to Loki in the first place, because he's good at contract-trickery and the like.)

I mean yes, he's selfish and doesn't care hugely about individual souls. But he's also self-interested and not an idiot - and this is a setting where the dead can be contacted by the living or can come back to life. If he fails to protect his worshipers, he won't keep them in the long run.

Plus, he benefits from having those souls anyway. My reading is that that was the point of the deal from his perspective (ie. he gets worship and souls from dwarves who don't want to deal with the system, plus he gets all the evil dwarves as clerics.) If he completely ignores where his clerics end up, he eventually loses everything.

[The_Weirdo]

The Hilgya ending I want: the death worm kills Hilgya as she’s walking away. Hilgya appears in Hel, in Hel and Loki’s presence. Loki ignores her and leaves Hel without her.

I wonder if you'd have wanted this ending if forced marriage hadn't proven controversial in these forums...

[Rrmcklin]

I wonder if you'd have wanted this ending if forced marriage hadn't proven controversial in these forums...

It hasn't proven controversial, at least not with the vast majority of people. What has been in dispute is you acting as if because that happened, it gives her carte blanche to do literally anything else she wants with no moral issue for the rest of her life...

[Jannoire]

I think it leans into Chaotic Evil territory, given how often "do whatever's best for you" leads directly to someone getting their day ruined.

"do whatever's best for you" is the text book definition of CN. MAYBE it leans towards TN. But for it to be seen as evil, it should at least disregards other beings.
Your point could easily work the other way. The sloan can as easily lead to someone getting their day un-ruined.

Hilgya abandoned the Linear Guild partway through their first mission agains the OOTS, so this seems in character for her.

After they abandoned her. She fell off when a flight spell got dispelled, and the linear jerks didn't bother to search for her...

[Rrmcklin]

"do whatever's best for you" is the text book definition of CN. MAYBE it leans towards TN. But for it to be seen as evil, it should at least disregards other beings.
Your point could easily work the other way. The sloan can as easily lead to someone getting their day un-ruined.



After they abandoned her. She fell off when a flight spell got dispelled, and the linear jerks didn't bother to search for her...

Going by the alignment plane descriptions, Mr. Burlew seems to describe CN as "don't tell me what to do", whereas CE is "screw you Jack, got mine." Which one of those do you think "do whatever's best for you" matches better? Because I know which one I think it does. Especially when context implies very little regard for any detriment to others.

[arverst_aegnar]

If Hilgya was just a side character whose methods didn't perfectly align with the Order of the Stick's (or more specifically, Durkon's), then i could see this being her final strip. If she was just the mother of Durkon's son, i would find it unlikely. But since we've seen that her life philosophy calls life a competition where if she hurts others more than they hurt her she wins, that she considers a badly-phrased proposal worse than burning someone to death, and is the kind of person who either misinterprets or deliberately misrepresents loving if dimwitted support as cruelty worthy of murder, i find it extremely improbable that this is her exit. I doubt she's going to prove important to the conclusion of this arc, but i suspect even if she gets as far as picking up Kudzu and waiting to see what happens, she's going to show up in the wrap-up -- and it's probably not going to end well for her.

[Jannoire]

Going by the alignment plane descriptions, Mr. Burlew seems to describe CN as "don't tell me what to do", whereas CE is "screw you Jack, got mine." Which one of those do you think "do whatever's best for you" matches better? Because I know which one I think it does. Especially when context implies very little regard for any detriment to others.

Since I don't know this 'Jack', nor ever got the reference (if there was one), I highly tend to "Don't tell me what to do (as I will do what's best for me, anyway)"

[Rrmcklin]

Since I don't know this 'Jack', nor ever got the reference (if there was one), I highly tend to "Don't tell me what to do (as I will do what's best for me, anyway)"

It's just an added bit to softening the phrasing. And the sentiment is very much "I'll do what I want, and to hell with anyone else". Very Hilgya, and obviously Loki.

[The_Weirdo]

It hasn't proven controversial, at least not with the vast majority of people. What has been in dispute is you acting as if because that happened, it gives her carte blanche to do literally anything else she wants with no moral issue for the rest of her life...

Nope, I argued she can do anything she wants to her family and/or in order to see her inalienable rights restored.

She's actually quite merciful in that she didn't force her family to find a powerful Wizard and pay for a Wish spell to the effect of undoing what was done to her.

And, quite frankly, when it comes to defending forced marriage to the tune of "she-must-have-done-something-what-it-is-I-do-not-know-but-will-be-glad-to-speculate", to paraphrase, if I recall correctly, Kish, one person is enough for me to want Hilgya to finish the arc or webcomic riding off into the sunset, a smile on her face, not a care in the world.

[Rrmcklin]

Nope, I argued she can do anything she wants to her family and/or in order to see her inalienable rights restored.

She's actually quite merciful in that she didn't force her family to find a powerful Wizard and pay for a Wish spell to the effect of undoing what was done to her.

And, quite frankly, when it comes to defending forced marriage to the tune of "she-must-have-done-something-what-it-is-I-do-not-know-but-will-be-glad-to-speculate", to paraphrase, if I recall correctly, Kish, one person is enough for me to want Hilgya to finish the arc or webcomic riding off into the sunset, a smile on her face, not a care in the world.

I've seen other people go down this road with you before, so I won't bother, except to say that your apparent argument of "a few people years ago said something, so I'll apply it to people who haven't even come close to saying it now" is the epitome of arguing in bad-faith.

[The_Weirdo]

I've seen other people go down this road with you before, so I won't bother, except to say that your apparent argument of "a few people years ago said something, so I'll apply it to people who haven't even come close to saying it now" is the epitome of arguing in bad-faith.

Or it could be that I have a good recollection of those very discussions.

[Jannoire]

I thought we were over the whole plot of "killing an entire family because a few of them did something wrong might not be a good idea"?

[Schroeswald]

Nope, I argued she can do anything she wants to her family and/or in order to see her inalienable rights restored.

She's actually quite merciful in that she didn't force her family to find a powerful Wizard and pay for a Wish spell to the effect of undoing what was done to her.

And, quite frankly, when it comes to defending forced marriage to the tune of "she-must-have-done-something-what-it-is-I-do-not-know-but-will-be-glad-to-speculate", to paraphrase, if I recall correctly, Kish, one person is enough for me to want Hilgya to finish the arc or webcomic riding off into the sunset, a smile on her face, not a care in the world.

She wanted to murder her family! Her default way to free herself is to BURN THEM ALL, that’s not good. The only reason she didn’t do it is that it would be bad on Kudzu’s lungs. Generally revenge isn’t considered to be on the good side of the alignment chart, I find what she actually did Chaotic Neutral but her intentions and everything else she does says Chaotic Evil.

[deuterio12]

I mean yes, he's selfish and doesn't care hugely about individual souls. But he's also self-interested and not an idiot - and this is a setting where the dead can be contacted by the living or can come back to life. If he fails to protect his worshipers, he won't keep them in the long run.

Thor's clerics won't bother ressurecting dwarves who died in a mining accident (and thus doomed to Hel even if they otherwise had 100% honorable lives until then) unless paid a big pile of shiny gold and gems, and Thor himself is "meh" when it happens.

Thor also forgot to tell any of his followers that even if you die "honorably" against a vampire, your soul gets stuck inside the new vampire.

Actually there was a whole vampire invasion of the dwarven realm, Thor's clergy slaughtered as they hoped to die honorable deaths to get to valhalla, but instead their souls get locked inside even more vampires, and Thor was still "meh".

And when Durkon finally broke free from the vampire (something that Thor didn't move a single finger to help with), Thor was all "hey I want you to return to the cold cruel world and risk your life again", then Durkon got incinerated by the highest priestess of Loki herself and Thor was still "meh".

So considering how Thor doesn't really does anything to protect his worshipers, and actually sends them into even greater dangers when they're supposed to be rewarded, yet his worshipers remain fanatical to him, I don't see how Loki would need to bother.

[ijuinkun]

Thor's clerics won't bother ressurecting dwarves who died in a mining accident (and thus doomed to Hel even if they otherwise had 100% honorable lives until then) unless paid a big pile of shiny gold and gems, and Thor himself is "meh" when it happens.

It's not so much that they want money for their own pockets as it is that the Raise Dead / Resurrection spells require the 5k/20k worth of diamonds as a mandatory spell component. No diamonds, no spell. Someone must either donate or purchase the diamonds, or else someone must travel to the Elemental Plane of Earth to get them, or mine them the old-fashioned way.

[diplomancer]

Hilgya murdered a member of the Order of the Stick. She is showing uncharacteristic wisdom in getting out while the getting is good, while the Order is more urgently occupied. I personally don't think it will work, though, I doubt that this is the last we will see of her.

[Jannoire]

And when Durkon finally broke free from the vampire (something that Thor didn't move a single finger to help with), Thor was all "hey I want you to return to the cold cruel world and risk your life again", then Durkon got incinerated by the highest priestess of Loki herself and Thor was still "meh".

If Thor would have lifted a finger against that vampire, all Hel would've broken loose...
Reread the conversations inside Durkon's head during the travel to the Godsmoot.
Also, Thor waits for Durkon to say that he wants to return to settle that nasty business before Thor asks him to return to do a bit more.

[woweedd]

Loki, demonstrating that, as this comic has tried to reiterate thousands of times: BEING FUNNY DOES NOT MAKE YOU A GOOD PERSON.

[Schroeswald]

Thor's clerics won't bother ressurecting dwarves who died in a mining accident (and thus doomed to Hel even if they otherwise had 100% honorable lives until then) unless paid a big pile of shiny gold and gems, and Thor himself is "meh" when it happens.

Thor also forgot to tell any of his followers that even if you die "honorably" against a vampire, your soul gets stuck inside the new vampire.

Actually there was a whole vampire invasion of the dwarven realm, Thor's clergy slaughtered as they hoped to die honorable deaths to get to valhalla, but instead their souls get locked inside even more vampires, and Thor was still "meh".

And when Durkon finally broke free from the vampire (something that Thor didn't move a single finger to help with), Thor was all "hey I want you to return to the cold cruel world and risk your life again", then Durkon got incinerated by the highest priestess of Loki herself and Thor was still "meh".

So considering how Thor doesn't really does anything to protect his worshipers, and actually sends them into even greater dangers when they're supposed to be rewarded, yet his worshipers remain fanatical to him, I don't see how Loki would need to bother.

1. It costs money to raise Dead, the church needs a lot of money to raise the dead. And what do you suggest Thor do? Come down from the heavens and grab 5000 gp worth of diamonds to force them to revive everyone? That would be frowned upon generally.

2. What is Thor supposed to do to help with vampires? Even if you know how vampirism works I doubt it would change what they do, it wouldn’t change Durkon’s position for sure.

3. In honor based societies people will still do good things, Thor’s clerics were Lawful Good, they would have sacrificed themselves anyway.

4. How is Thor supposed to help Durkon get free? He used lightning to warn the Order, he can’t just actively try to murder Durkon*, that’s generally frowned upon. And he made sure to give Durkon a choice to not return to life.

5.He has his followers do Good, because he is Good, you seem to think that because he wants them doing good by fighting evil he is endangering them for selfish reasons. When Durkon and Minrah reach Valhalla he makes sure to never force them to lose their reward, he didn’t even ask Minrah to let herself be revived.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Thor's clerics won't bother ressurecting dwarves who died in a mining accident (and thus doomed to Hel even if they otherwise had 100% honorable lives until then) unless paid a big pile of shiny gold and gems, and Thor himself is "meh" when it happens.

No, Thor's clerics can't afford to resurrect dwarves unless someone provides them with the resources.

Thor doesn't really does anything to protect his worshipers

Try reading 1146 again.

Grey Wolf

[Dion]

i suspect even if she gets as far as picking up Kudzu and waiting to see what happens, she's going to show up in the wrap-up -- and it's probably not going to end well for her.

If she picks up Kudzu and tries to leave, I’m going to feel really bad for Sigdi.

Nobody wants to be forced kill the mother of their grandchild.

[Riftwolf]

I thought we were over the whole plot of "killing an entire family because a few of them did something wrong might not be a good idea"?

It'll never be over

[The MunchKING]

If she picks up Kudzu and tries to leave, I’m going to feel really bad for Sigdi.

Nobody wants to be forced kill the mother of their grandchild.

Why would Sigdi have to kill Hylgia? She's taking the baby OUT of combat, and hasn't hurt Durkon again.

[KorvinStarmast]

Also, I feel like every time Hilgya is on screen, an absolute storm of argument will erupt on forum.

She's a trigger, apparently.

Sigdi, however, has been near-universally praised. I for one expect a Giant sigh of relief in this book's commentary for having finally created a non-contentious female supporting character.

What is Lien: chopped liver? I wish we had more of her, and am glad that the GDGU had a Lien adventure included.

(If I had a quatloo for guessing wrong what comes next in this comic I'd have a lot of quatloos.)

You are not alone.

Hilgya: Just do anything you feel like doing Redcloak. And if it’s too hard, give up. After all, you can just planeshift out as your world and everything you know is snuffed out of existence, while your god slowly dies of starvation. That’s exactly what I’m going to do!

Redcloak: ... ummm.... remind me again what the other option was? Something about a 9th level spell?

Hehe, I like that take, but cannot bet any quatloos on it, see above.

Durkon did do what he thought was right, and offered to marry her. The offer was rejected, to put it lightly. Her part seems pretty done to me.

As well done as Durkon's body shortly after the proposal?

I doubt she's going to prove important to the conclusion of this arc, but i suspect even if she gets as far as picking up Kudzu and waiting to see what happens, she's going to show up in the wrap-up -- and it's probably not going to end well for her.

Now that Sigdi knows of Kudzu, and Durkon does, their powerful sense of family will be contrasted with Hilgya's less passionate, or less positive, feelings for family ties. That's my guess. I don't see her settling down. She's a high level/powerful cleric of Loki. PCs of that level are not all that common, right? She's as likely to return to human lands, where she feels less constrained by dwarven customs and social mores as she is to do anything else. I have an inkling of an idea: Sigdi offers to take custody of Kudzu, and Hilgya accepts since it frees her to do what she wants. I think that would be in character.

Generally revenge isn’t considered to be on the good side of the alignment chart,

Which puts the entire premise of OoTS on unsteady ground.
Core premise of the Order forming: Blood Oath of Revenge (against Xykon) by an LG wizard is passed to his LG son, who takes it up. He forms a party to help accomplish that goal.

Shenanigans ensue for the next 7 books.