OOTS #1172 - The Discussion Thread

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Is that supposed to be a shot against compound words?
I mean, you're putting two (or more) words together to make a new one
Of course you're writing them without spaces.

Other languages manages to create the same concept while retaining the space, aiding immeasurably to reading comprehension by clearly but succinctly separating noun and adjective. For example, I find it easier to parse "food intolerance" than "Nahrungsmittelunverträglichkeit". And not because you have a weirdly long word for "food", but because in English I see two words that modify each other, and by recognizing the first, it makes it easier to figure out the second, rather than trying to hunt for where one ends and the other starts.

"It's the way we do it" is not an excuse for "this is not an easy way to do it when it comes to learning a language". It'd be like the Spanish or French saying "yes, of course verbs are an indecipherable mess of conjugations. How else are we supposed to do it?".

Grey Wolf

[littlebum2002]

Strangely, that wouldn't concern me as much as their seemingly critical shortage of spaces. You'd think that they'd be taxed per word or they're keyboards are missing the long key at the bottom (together with the baffling translocation of z and y).

Grey Wolf

They created their language to optimize the Sending spell. You can fit a whole lot more information into 25 words when you don't use spaces.

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

So, clockwise, from Dvalin's cleric:

1. Cobalt
2. Stonebrow
3. Irongoblet*
4. Steelbeard*
5. Whiterock*
6. Ironthumb*
7. (drooling)*
8. (brown low bun)*
9. (green hat)*
10. Copperpot*
11. Goldknee*
12. (bald grey beard)
13. (monocle)
14. (grey bun)
15. (Lord Speaker)

* = dominated

9-6. It's more than the "slighlty more than half" I imagined.

[hroþila]

They created their language to optimize the Sending spell. You can fit a whole lot more information into 25 words when you don't use spaces.

*laughs in agglutinative*

edit: For real though, I want to sneak into a game and then abuse Sending by insisting that current linguistic analysis sees no difference between German and English compounds. Even if graphically separated, they're still a single compound word.

[Reboot]

Note that the damages should be the full cost of a true resurrection: 25,000 GP for diamonds + 1,530 GP for spell casting. And this assumes the availability of a level 17 cleric or equivalent.

Raise dead or normal resurrection costs you 2 points of Con or a level, permanently.

This is enough that death isn't really reversible for most people as a practical matter, even if there weren't a serious shortage of level 17+ clerics doing commercial spellcasting in the OotS world.

Here's the thing - if (IRL) you injure someone badly enough, with intent, that they're comatose (including medically-induced comas) for an extended period of time and require extensive rehabilitation to recover fully... you still don't get charged with murder, and even attempted murder is a lesser charge.

In the DND-style world, if you lost a level from Raise Dead/Resurrection (as opposed to the CON points for not having a level to lost), regaining the XP is basically equivalent to rehabilitation after injury. It takes time and effort, and harm has definitely been done, but it's still very certainly lesser harm than permanent murder.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

They created their language to optimize the Sending spell. You can fit a whole lot more information into 25 words when you don't use spaces.

I've often mentioned just how broken the Command spell is in Spanish, where they can chain so many modifiers behind a verb that it allows them to give the order "kill them all", to the point where the manual recommended pretending you couldn't just so the spell wouldn't be completely broken for the level it was in.

Grey Wolf

[tigerusthegreat]

I just fail my moral check and I don't know what's gonna happen.

It's a hammer of returning. Just wait....it'll come back, collapse the ceiling, and all the vampires will dust.

Noteworthy is that it returns Thor style, not with a pop of magic but with a full boomerang effect, which matters for things like a gravity assisted crumbling of the roof.

[Clistenes]

Why didn't he cast Magic Circle Against Evil? That would supress Domination without attacking anybody or breaking any law...

[JT]

What we really need now is a mirror.

Not just a mirror... a rotating disco ball!

[ibgdude]

We've all assumed that Durkon's prophecy of death and destruction was referring to the actions that the High Priest of Hel took using Durkon's body. The characters have also made this assumption.

However, it looks like Durkon himself is about to cause quite a deal of destruction, and quite possibly death as well. Could the prophecy have actually been talking about the actions Durkon's about to take?

[nmphuong91]

Why didn't he cast Magic Circle Against Evil? That would supress Domination without attacking anybody or breaking any law...

Using any spell or supernatural ability is against the law.

[Ornithologist]

Why didn't he cast Magic Circle Against Evil? That would supress Domination without attacking anybody or breaking any law...

One, the blue barrier effects all spells cast. So Durkon would still get stoned.

Two, I'm going to bet 5 Quatloos that this will be much more interesting to see.

[dtilque]

That's a cute reframing coming from someone who basically said "Someone on here, I won't say who (although I will link directly to the post and call it out by number, so it's not like I'm actually trying to avoid calling out this person), had a really stupid and improbable suggestion."

Well, it was my thought as I posted, so it wasn't a reframing. However, you're right that I should not have posted the link. My apologies.

[Peelee]

*laughs in agglutinative*

edit: For real though, I want to sneak into a game and then abuse Sending by insisting that current linguistic analysis sees no difference between German and English compounds. Even if graphically separated, they're still a single compound word.

You could argue that all you wanted, but at my table it'd end with me saying "cool, so is English or Common the language you're Sending in, because zero creatures have English in their known language lists."

[DavidSh]

Spells or supernatural abilities not applied to creatures are not known to be forbidden. I'm uncertain as to whether Magic Circles are applied to areas or to creatures in areas.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Spoiler: Legal and Ethical Whatnot

Show

Here's the thing - if (IRL) you injure someone badly enough, with intent, that they're comatose (including medically-induced comas) for an extended period of time and require extensive rehabilitation to recover fully... you still don't get charged with murder, and even attempted murder is a lesser charge.

In the DND-style world, if you lost a level from Raise Dead/Resurrection (as opposed to the CON points for not having a level to lost), regaining the XP is basically equivalent to rehabilitation after injury. It takes time and effort, and harm has definitely been done, but it's still very certainly lesser harm than permanent murder.

I'd like to again point out that people were throwing around "Durkon could just accidentally the entire council and hope they get raised later" much more casually than (I hope) they would throw around "Durkon could just put the entire council into a coma," which was the phenomenon I was remarking on. Not the difference in perspective, but the magnitude of said difference.

Not just a mirror... a rotating disco ball!

There's probably a dwarven law against turning official councils into dance parties.

Spells or supernatural abilities not applied to creatures are not known to be forbidden. I'm uncertain as to whether Magic Circles are applied to areas or to creatures in areas.

I'm pretty sure that kind of thing would also be illegal, because good gods are there a lot of disruptive spells that technically don't target creatures.

Why didn't he cast Magic Circle Against Evil? That would supress Domination without attacking anybody or breaking any law...

Also, this is the dwarf who didn't think to prepare control wind for the Windy Canyon...

Spoiler: Vampiric Whatnot

Show

I am not thinking that sunlight will do anything about the domination, but it will discomfit the vampires.

They can't dominate people if they're dead. Dead again, I mean.

Not just a mirror... a rotating disco ball!

I'm not sure the sunlight would stay on the vampires for three consecutive rounds.

Spoiler: Random Real-World Ramblings

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From your mouth to the appropriate deity or fundamental shaping force of the universe's ear. But I ain't holding my breath. That they've figured out the easy bits early and fast doesn't seem to have translated into similar breakthroughs in the harder bits, and it feels like the effort has stalled for the last year or two.

Grey Wolf

I suppose it also depends on what you define as "self-driving". To me, the cars driving around with humans at the wheel in case something happens (which are being used by a variety of businesses today) are just a smooth slope of incremental improvements from being "self-driving".
There's also the separation between "Self-driving cars exist, yay!" to "Self-driving cars are cheap and common, yippee!" The latter is going to take a lot longer.

I am far more interested in seeing fusion power than self driving vehicles.

Same, but sadly the technical hurdles for doing the awesome stuff tend to be higher than the technical hurdles for doing the kinda cool stuff.

Other languages manages to create the same concept while retaining the space, aiding immeasurably to reading comprehension by clearly but succinctly separating noun and adjective. For example, I find it easier to parse "food intolerance" than "Nahrungsmittelunverträglichkeit". And not because you have a weirdly long word for "food", but because in English I see two words that modify each other, and by recognizing the first, it makes it easier to figure out the second, rather than trying to hunt for where one ends and the other starts.

"It's the way we do it" is not an excuse for "this is not an easy way to do it when it comes to learning a language". It'd be like the Spanish or French saying "yes, of course verbs are an indecipherable mess of conjugations. How else are we supposed to do it?".

Grey Wolf

In fairness, English has its own set of grammatical oddities. Most of which come from the fact that we selectively borrow other languages' grammatical oddities for some words, but still.

[Furious J]

I have it on very good authority that within 20 years, everyone will be speaking German. Or a German-Chinese hybrid.

Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica.

(Identity theft is not a joke, Mod on the Silver Mountain!)

[Kalirren]

"Just like your Pa did?"

Anyone remember how Durkon's Pa died?

Durkon just removed the keystone of the dome. The sunbeam landing on the vampire is incidental.

Rocks will fall. Everybody will die. Except for possibly the third circle of protection. I don't know what that is.

Although I guess it means the new high priest is toast if the ceiling collapses immediately...

[slowplay]

That last panel. There's nobody else in the room and I said out loud, "Ohh, Durkon. Hrm." That's how you know this is a great comic. Love this story!

[littlebum2002]

Why didn't he cast Magic Circle Against Evil? That would supress Domination without attacking anybody or breaking any law...

Using any spell or supernatural ability is against the law.

I would imagine that "giving someone a gift" isn't against the law though. So he should have just brought Belkar's clasp of Protection from Evil and given it to one of the dominated clan members, who would in turn give it to the next Dominated clan member. Even if it was against the rules, I imagine you could drop it on their head before turning into stone, and then they could drop it on the head of their neighbor, etc. Having half the council be Stone would be better than having them all be Dominated.

[Cazero]

An interesting developement. Once again, Durkon found a way to save the day by standing perfectly still and doing nothing for some time.

Well, hopefuly not much time.
The way I see it, it's too late to simply dust the vampires. What Durkon needs to do is adjourning the council. Dwarves live underground, they most likely have sensible regulation about collapsing building, like "interrupt everything you're doing and evacuate". We then see the non-dominated elders leaving the room in a calm and orderly fashion, the meeting is officialy adjourned due to the risk of collapse, and Durkon is un-petrified just in time for the hammer to return in his hand.
Then he beats up the vampires properly and no one has to be crushed under a big pile of rock. Not today.

[Clistenes]

Using any spell or supernatural ability is against the law.

As the Vampires themselves have shown us, you can cast the spell outside the barrier, entering afterwards... All Durkon would need to do is to walk close to the Dominated Dwarves, freeing their wills...

[Ruck]

There's a line of blue runes way below the ceiling. This line seems to have zapped Durkon into stonedom so I guess it's providing the blue barrier. Just sayin'.

Anyone tried to decipher what those runes say yet?

I think it was invalidated with an Goblin business owner in his elderly age.
Meaning that the world did survive.

Also, this story will have a happy ending.

[D.One]

There's a line of blue runes way below the ceiling. This line seems to have zapped Durkon into stonedom so I guess it's providing the blue barrier. Just sayin'.

Also, weren't there still THREE circles of protection in place? Three rings, to be precise. We've only seen two.

The third ring of defense is the chasm and narrow bridge outside.

Grey Wolf

I can buy the "the first ring was the chasm" theory if it's the true, but when he talks about "its own set o...", I start to think maybe there's more to it.

Pure speculation: maybe the third ring isn't normally activated, and only gets on under a perceived outside invasion, which could be emulated with the hammer's return.

Not just a mirror... a rotating disco ball!

LOL

[Ruck]

Aside: Where's Tarquin or Vaarsuvius to rules-lawyer that technically, all Durkon did was throw a hammer into a high space-- any destruction thereafter was caused by an unpredictable heavy flying object?

[robbie374]

What if the council just made the rule, "For a vote to be officially counted, the voter must stand in the ray of sunlight in full view of all, explain his position at length, and raise his hand to declare his vote"?

[Hemoparty]

You can't fool me, it's a returning weapon!

...It, uhh. It will return, right? Even though Durkon's been stoned? And it'll matter when it does return, right? Yeah?

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

Anyone tried to decipher what those runes say yet?

I did, back when they first appeared in #1168.

The runes at the top of the 3rd panel say "follow the law". That's my guess.

[Mightymosy]

I think the issue with self-driving cards is that some people do NOT want them.

I am relatively sure that - as a civilization - we could, already, technically have self-driven cars if we could all agree that this was the way to go.

In other words: I am confident one could set up a traffic system with self-driven cards ONLY, but having self-driven cars drive around in a traffic system where SOME cards are deiven by idiotic humans is too difficult too set up yet.

Which brings up an interesting philosophical question:

We all know traffic accidents cause LOTS of grief each day.

Consider a world where EVERY car drives automatically, NO human steering necessary. But that requires each car to be connected to some type of internet (let's call it carnet) so that computers can calculate courses to avoid any collision and pick the best way for everyone.
So, in this world you lose the freedom to drive and steer yourself, and you have to give away your position to a central computer network, the carnet.

What weighs more? The personal freedom of the individual to steer however they like, or the right of everyone else who wants to reach their destination unharmed?

[Ruck]

What if the council just made the rule, "For a vote to be officially counted, the voter must stand in the ray of sunlight in full view of all, explain his position at length, and raise his hand to declare his vote"?

Unfortunately, too many of the Council members are currently dominated to sign off on that.

I did, back when they first appeared in #1168.

Danke.