The spellplague is in a decade, what do?

[Quertus]

Wait wait wait. Let me get this straight.

1. Big A wrote a sort of multiplayer SimEarth game. With rules. And he got some people to play.
2. The players started to game the system and min/max (wonder where we've seen that before). They didn't care that the sim sprites representing stuff in the game might have bad things happen to them.
3. Big A said they were playing the game wrong. So he locked the players in a room and made them buy food and water with in-game currency. The more the sim sprites got positive modifiers associated with a player the more game money the player got.
4. The players started to all starve?
5. Big A modded in a game-wide effect that if the sim sprites didn't give any players their in-game money then after a timer ran out the sim sprite got a massive negative modifier. Then he had to add to the sim so that all the sprites knew about this so the players would have enough game-money to buy food.
6. If that negative modifier thing gets modded back out the players will all starve.

Is that all correct?

Actually, I think that, for #5, one of the players modded in that game-wide effect. But otherwise yeah, I think that's right. Of course, I'm no Faerun scholar, so grain of salt, and all that.

[Bohandas]

Stop; in this analogy, the demons are only there because of the emperor in the first place. (After all, the presumed “reality depends on the continued existence of the gods” thing —which is somewhat dubious, since FR gods have died before— and the Wall of the Faithless don’t have to exist, and didn’t use to, but only do because of Ao/the gods.)

Also, to push the analogy, the emperor has the ability to grant magical boons to those who believe and bolster his life force, but has decided to throw his people to the demons instead. He’s such a lousy emperor that as soon as anyone keeps him from even temporarily chumming his subjects as demon chow, people stop worshiping him; arguably if people only “worship” him out of fear of demons, they don’t actually believe in/worship him per se....

Also, reminds me of a couple of book series,

Spoiler

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Namely, The Spirit Thief series, in which the analog to the emperor in this example turns out to be omnicidally crazy-evil, or even the Mistborn series, in which the actual emperor is unrepentantly evil in no small part because of the mess he made of the world.

Don't forget Warhammer 40k

[Vizzerdrix]

The more I think about it, the more I realize that I`d have to take Mystra`s head.

[EldritchWeaver]

The more I think about it, the more I realize that I`d have to take Mystra`s head.

Compared to the "Hug Mystra" group, why the reverse stance?

[Vizzerdrix]

Compared to the "Hug Mystra" group, why the reverse stance?

See. She tends to have a beef with Gond. That doesn't sit well with me.

The machines that worshippers of Gond make are readily available for others to study and improve on. They serve as civil engineers and traveling tinkers for less fortunate communities. Gond encourages mundane tech and development for the betterment of all.

Magic, on the other hand, is hoarded by the elites. Used to subjugate and control people. In short, like the wall, it has to go. For that to happen, Mystra needs to die and be scrubbed from existence. Can`t allow this silly reincarnation business to bring her back.

[unseenmage]

See. She tends to have a beef with Gond. That doesn't sit well with me.

The machines that worshippers of Gond make are readily available for others to study and improve on. They serve as civil engineers and traveling tinkers for less fortunate communities. Gond encourages mundane tech and development for the betterment of all.

Magic, on the other hand, is hoarded by the elites. Used to subjugate and control people. In short, like the wall, it has to go. For that to happen, Mystra needs to die and be scrubbed from existence. Can`t allow this silly reincarnation business to bring her back.

As much as I appreciate Gond and find Mystra to be incompetent.. Magic can stay. it's the weave that's inefficient and cumbersome.

That and magitech's no good without the magi.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

See. She tends to have a beef with Gond. That doesn't sit well with me.

The machines that worshippers of Gond make are readily available for others to study and improve on. They serve as civil engineers and traveling tinkers for less fortunate communities. Gond encourages mundane tech and development for the betterment of all.

Magic, on the other hand, is hoarded by the elites. Used to subjugate and control people. In short, like the wall, it has to go. For that to happen, Mystra needs to die and be scrubbed from existence. Can`t allow this silly reincarnation business to bring her back.

I'd argue the problem is the other way around. Mystra's mandate is to spread the lore and use of magic as far and wide as possible, anyone with sufficient intelligence and work ethic can theoretically start learning wizardry, and there are several magocracies across Toril where magic is used for the benefit of the common people and many more places where magic wards and mythals are the only thing standing between common folk and the monsters who find them delicious.

Gond, though? His mandate is obviously not to spread technology to the masses, or it would be much more widespread than it is; even with cities opposing weapons research as too dangerous, things like crude printing presses were canonically acceptable and desired when they were invented. He doesn't seem to care about spreading his worship beyond gnomes and/or Lantan, and his clergy are more focused on wandering around sampling inventors' cool ideas than spreading either actual technology or principles of science and discovery. More damningly, he specifically gifted smoke powder to the gnomes of Lantan--and only the gnomes of Lantan--as a reward after the Time of Troubles, and he intervened to make gunpowder chemically inert so the only path to guns and such is through him.

It's entirely possible that if you took Gond out of the picture to stop being a gatekeeper/bottleneck to technological progress, and gave Mystra a decade or so to actually focus on spreading magic instead of holding back the latest Realms-Shaking Event, the Realms would start leaning more magitech-y and less Medieval and the population as a whole would be better off.

As much as I appreciate Gond and find Mystra to be incompetent.. Magic can stay. it's the weave that's inefficient and cumbersome.

What gives you the impression that it's "inefficient and cumbersome"? All of the Realms-specific magic--from Netherese spontaneous casting and 10th-level spells, to spellfire and other "raw" magic" stuff, to place magic like circle magic and Rashemi spirit magic, and so on--relies on the presence of the Weave to some degree, and the one example we have of the Weave collapsing is 4e, where magic is much reduced in power, scope, duration, and other aspects and anything more complicated than your basic blasting Evocation has long casting times, variable effectiveness, and expensive components.

In fact, whenever we see either non-Realms casters head to the Realms and use magic with the Weave or Realms-native casters going elsewhere and casting spells without the Weave, there seems to be basically no difference in the speed and efficacy of magic between the two, implying that it's able to filter Toril's ambient magic down to safer levels with no noticeable loss of power or ease of use; in computer terms, that's like running a virtual machine with identical speeds to bare-metal hardware, and that's pretty darn impressive.

Now, if you mean "cumbersome" in that Mystra can theoretically deny casting to any Weave-using caster at any time for any reason, yeah, I'll take Boccob the Uncaring any day. But Mystryl and the first Mystra never really exercised that prerogative and the second Mystra only threw it around for a short period after her ascension, so while it's definitely something every spellcaster should keep in mind, in practice it's not really an issue.

[ShurikVch]

I'd argue the problem is the other way around. Mystra's mandate is to spread the lore and use of magic as far and wide as possible, anyone with sufficient intelligence and work ethic can theoretically start learning wizardry, and there are several magocracies across Toril where magic is used for the benefit of the common people and many more places where magic wards and mythals are the only thing standing between common folk and the monsters who find them delicious.

Gond, though? His mandate is obviously not to spread technology to the masses, or it would be much more widespread than it is; even with cities opposing weapons research as too dangerous, things like crude printing presses were canonically acceptable and desired when they were invented. He doesn't seem to care about spreading his worship beyond gnomes and/or Lantan, and his clergy are more focused on wandering around sampling inventors' cool ideas than spreading either actual technology or principles of science and discovery. More damningly, he specifically gifted smoke powder to the gnomes of Lantan--and only the gnomes of Lantan--as a reward after the Time of Troubles, and he intervened to make gunpowder chemically inert so the only path to guns and such is through him.

It's entirely possible that if you took Gond out of the picture to stop being a gatekeeper/bottleneck to technological progress, and gave Mystra a decade or so to actually focus on spreading magic instead of holding back the latest Realms-Shaking Event, the Realms would start leaning more magitech-y and less Medieval and the population as a whole would be better off.

Yes! All my yes!
No more of that medieval-like stasis!
Greyhawk 2000, anyone?

What gives you the impression that it's "inefficient and cumbersome"? All of the Realms-specific magic--from Netherese spontaneous casting and 10th-level spells, to spellfire and other "raw" magic" stuff, to place magic like circle magic and Rashemi spirit magic, and so on--relies on the presence of the Weave to some degree

Well. Epic Spellcasting doesn't.

and the one example we have of the Weave collapsing is 4e, where magic is much reduced in power, scope, duration, and other aspects and anything more complicated than your basic blasting Evocation has long casting times, variable effectiveness, and expensive components.

It's just saying about how bad is Weave for the world's stability - tell me: could magic in Greyhawk be in turmoil from death of just one deity (let alone - from casting just one spell)?

In fact, whenever we see either non-Realms casters head to the Realms and use magic with the Weave or Realms-native casters going elsewhere and casting spells without the Weave, there seems to be basically no difference in the speed and efficacy of magic between the two, implying that it's able to filter Toril's ambient magic down to safer levels with no noticeable loss of power or ease of use; in computer terms, that's like running a virtual machine with identical speeds to bare-metal hardware, and that's pretty darn impressive.

Unfortunately, when Weave users going somewhere without the Weave, they're incapable to cast Weave-dependent spells at all, and need to re-learn the magic from the very basics

Now, if you mean "cumbersome" in that Mystra can theoretically deny casting to any Weave-using caster at any time for any reason, yeah, I'll take Boccob the Uncaring any day. But Mystryl and the first Mystra never really exercised that prerogative and the second Mystra only threw it around for a short period after her ascension, so while it's definitely something every spellcaster should keep in mind, in practice it's not really an issue.

It's because such punishment is ultimately pointless: all magic-deprived would just go to Shar

Let's go with your assumption.

Assume that a sizable fraction of Good people in such a setting will not say their prayers, unless compelled under pain of eternal torture.

You're either positing a setting where good people are too lazy to take a negligible amount of time to shore up the very fabric of the universe without threat of punishment (which sounds at odds with good people being the sorts to go off on heroic adventures for the cause of good, something that's supposed to be a staple of the setting), or else you're positing a setting where the emperor is so horrible that good people would rather tear down the wall and take their chances with the demons while trying to get someone more reasonable on the throne. Which of these two options is it, or do you have another reason why good people wouldn't happily support good gods and shore up the fundamentals of the universe simply because that's what good people should do?

And that is the root of your mistake: who said most of population are Good?
They are Neutral!

Searching old threads, I see I was told that the formula for a Lich was published in Dragon magazine.

Yes, it's correct - "Blueprint For a Lich", Dragon #26, year 1979 (earlier than Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms); the first Good-aligned Lich didn't appeared until about 11 years later.
Also, the very fact this thing was never re-published anywhere (not even in the Book of Vile Darkness) should hint us it was discarded since before the BX D&D

Anyway, the logic runs like this:

• someone (you?) contended that the Wall was OK, because the gods needed it to survive.

The point is: it's not just about the survival of the deities in question, but also about the survival of sizable portion of the world's population, who will perish in the resulting cataclysms

• My response was, OK, does survival actually make committing atrocities OK? What about (evil) Liches, who have to poison & eat babies to achieve immortality?

Liches, actually, don't do it.
In "The Village of Eternal Night" quest, Belial the Lord of Fire laughed at Jhareg brothers, because slaughter of Charwood children was completely unnecessary for turning Karlat Jhareg into Lich.

• You responded that Liches have non-evil immortality alternatives (Bae, etc).

It's not "alternatives": Good Lich isn't a separate kind of creature, but just a Lich which is Good (and Baelnorn is just elven name for elven Good Lich).
Since no Good person would do anything truly vile for selfish reasons, it's mean there is nothing bad about becoming a Lich.
Thus, your example falls flat

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Well. Epic Spellcasting doesn't.

That's not Realms-specific, epic spellcasting works in any setting. Elven High Magic is a close analog for epic casting and does depend on the Weave, and is correspondingly more powerful, since that's basically what the Weave is for (taking Toril's abnormally-high ambient magic levels and making them safe to use for mortals).

It's just saying about how bad is Weave for the world's stability - tell me: could magic in Greyhawk be in turmoil from death of just one deity (let alone - from casting just one spell)?

Well, firstly, you can't cast level 12 spells on Oerth, so the question is kinda moot.

Secondly, Mystra is the most powerful deity by far in the Realms (aside from Ao). Selûne and Shar were the first two deities to exist in Realmspace, both top-tier greater deities capable of creating planets and other gods and such, and Mystra was formed when Selûne ripped out a massive amount of her own power (likely the majority of it) and chucked it at Shar to rip out a similar chunk of her power, the two of which then combined and coalesced into Mystra, a goddess powerful enough to stop a war between formerly-nigh-omnipotent creator deities on her own. Mystra has invested huge amounts of her power in mortals in the form of Magisters, dozens of Chosen, shadowstaffs and other lesser servants, caches of artifacts, and so forth and still outweighs most of the other gods power-wise. And Mystra's body stretches over the entirety of Realmspace and partly into the planes and is essentially the laws of physics given physical form.

Given all that, it's no surprise that killing the living embodiment of physics, magic, and reality itself would do some wonky things to the setting. And the incidents that caused those deaths were effectively unique:

• Mystryl: Karsus (the single most power-mad archmage), of the Empire of Netheril (a nation full of power-hungry archmages) which had the most advanced understanding of magic in Torillian history (potentially tied with Imaskar, granted), researched the most powerful spell in the history of magic--over the course of a decade and using up many priceless and irreplaceable components to do so--and then cast it at just the wrong moment when Mystryl happened to be working on a very delicate operation to repair the Weave and Karsus, lacking the knowledge to do that safely, lost control and Mystryl sacrificed herself to stop something worse from happening.
• Mystra 1: Ao (an overdeity previously not known to exist) demoted all the gods to mortalhood, Mystra was immediately attacked, captured, and tortured by Bane (a sworn enemy), then she effectively committed suicide-by-attempted-deicide.
• Mystra 2: Wizards of the Coast mandated that Mystra die again, so she was killed in a way that is utterly implausible and makes no in-setting sense, and no amount of godly power can counter a publisher's decrees.

So, basically, despite people complaining that Mystra dies "all the time," it in fact took two completely unprecedented, completely un-prepareable-for events to kill her at all, and she immediately rewrote the laws of reality to stop the first one from ever happening again.

The very premise of this thread is asking what you would do if you knew for a fact that something was going to happen that (A) had only happened twice previously in all of recorded history under un-replicable conditions, (B) had literally zero warning it would happen, and (C) any reasonable person would conclude was highly unlikely to ever happen again. It's not like the Weave is some big glaring red button that anyone can push and destabilize the setting, or something like that.

Unfortunately, when Weave users going somewhere without the Weave, they're incapable to cast Weave-dependent spells at all, and need to re-learn the magic from the very basics

Nope, spellcasting in the Realms is completely transparent with casting elsewhere. Happens all the time when Toril natives go planes-hopping or spelljamming or when non-natives pop by for a visit, and in fact there are plenty of non-Weave users on Toril itself, like the plumaweavers and hishnashapers of Maztica, and so on.

It's because such punishment is ultimately pointless: all magic-deprived would just go to Shar

If you assume that anyone who does something bad enough to be cut off by Mystra would be willing to swear allegiance to Shar to gain Shadow Weave access, when they were likely doing something sufficiently self-centered and evil to be incompatible with submitting to Shar, sure.

[Calthropstu]

Yes! All my yes!
No more of that medieval-like stasis!
Greyhawk 2000, anyone?

Well. Epic Spellcasting doesn't.

It's just saying about how bad is Weave for the world's stability - tell me: could magic in Greyhawk be in turmoil from death of just one deity (let alone - from casting just one spell)?

Unfortunately, when Weave users going somewhere without the Weave, they're incapable to cast Weave-dependent spells at all, and need to re-learn the magic from the very basics

It's because such punishment is ultimately pointless: all magic-deprived would just go to Shar


And that is the root of your mistake: who said most of population are Good?
They are Neutral!


Yes, it's correct - "Blueprint For a Lich", Dragon #26, year 1979 (earlier than Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms); the first Good-aligned Lich didn't appeared until about 11 years later.
Also, the very fact this thing was never re-published anywhere (not even in the Book of Vile Darkness) should hint us it was discarded since before the BX D&D

The point is: it's not just about the survival of the deities in question, but also about the survival of sizable portion of the world's population, who will perish in the resulting cataclysms
Liches, actually, don't do it.
In "The Village of Eternal Night" quest, Belial the Lord of Fire laughed at Jhareg brothers, because slaughter of Charwood children was completely unnecessary for turning Karlat Jhareg into Lich.
It's not "alternatives": Good Lich isn't a separate kind of creature, but just a Lich which is Good (and Baelnorn is just elven name for elven Good Lich).
Since no Good person would do anything truly vile for selfish reasons, it's mean there is nothing bad about becoming a Lich.
Thus, your example falls flat

It never said what WAS required to become a lich in NWN though. Maybe the sacrifice of a single child would have been enough? Also, the phylactory itself was special. It was a powerful artifact. Rules could have been different.

In each book listing lich stats, it mentions some form of horrible ritual. I think the details were dropped on purpose because there are idiots who would actually try something like that. Given the history regarding D&D, that's not something they need. The ritual is evil. Leave it at that. People don't need to read something like "and, after stabbing a child in the back 3 times, you must carefully remove his internal organs and eat them raw, while the child still lives and is forced to watch" in a rules manual for a game.

Baelnorn are special cases. They are not liches per se, though they are similar. Baelnorn, those I have read up on anyways, are bound to serve. They have a phylactory of sorts that usually serves as a focal point for a mythal. They cannot leave the mythal. I have not read of any baelnorn outside of mythals. It is a much more powerful ritual that creates them.

I have not ever seen an example of "good lich." It's possible to make a good lich after the fact a la helm of opposite alignment. But if there is a method for good people to gain lichdom, I would think it would be more widely touted. Where are these "good liches" listed?

[ShurikVch]

That's not Realms-specific, epic spellcasting works in any setting. Elven High Magic is a close analog for epic casting and does depend on the Weave, and is correspondingly more powerful, since that's basically what the Weave is for (taking Toril's abnormally-high ambient magic levels and making them safe to use for mortals).

It's a nice fan theory, but is there any proofs?

Well, firstly, you can't cast level 12 spells on Oerth, so the question is kinda moot.

And who said you can't? Where it's written?

Secondly, Mystra is the most powerful deity by far in the Realms (aside from Ao).

Oh, come on - she was nothing beside Jergal (pre-Dark Three)

Given all that, it's no surprise that killing the living embodiment of physics, magic, and reality itself would do some wonky things to the setting.

Please, excuse me, but since when the "physics" and "reality itself" is in the Mystra's portfolio?

So, basically, despite people complaining that Mystra dies "all the time," it in fact took two completely unprecedented, completely un-prepareable-for events to kill her at all, and she immediately rewrote the laws of reality to stop the first one from ever happening again.

Well, the Epic Spellcasting is still working just fine, so - technically - nothing prevents the second casting of Karsus's avatar...

Nope, spellcasting in the Realms is completely transparent with casting elsewhere. Happens all the time when Toril natives go planes-hopping or spelljamming

Let me to disagree with you:
Firstly:

Rich Baker is THE expert on the Shadow Weave, but I certainly agree with him that it extends only as far as the Weave itself does: that is, throughout the Prime Material Plane of Toril (or the crystal sphere of Realmspace, if you prefer), NOT onto other planes. The best way to think of the Shadow Weave is this: it's the echo, or literally the shadow, of the Weave itself, and therefore can't exist where the Weave doesn't - and the Weave, in turn, is our mortal name for the flows of natural energy we call "magic" because we can harness it (spells, spell-like powers, psionics, et al being the ways in which we accomplish that harnessing), that permeate Toril and are an integral part of all life in, on, and in the atmosphere of Toril. Such natural flows, and magic, exist on other planes, and permit travel and energy flows from plane to plane, but only on Toril are the flows known as the Weave, administered by Mystra, and possess a 'Shadow Weave.' Elsewhere, there may or may not be similar 'dark counterparts' to the forces spellcasters can harness as magic, but those counterparts, if they exist, aren't linked to the Shadow Weave, part of the Shadow Weave, or governable in precisely the same way as the Shadow Weave (i.e. a character who can harness the Shadow Weave on Toril can't necessarily reliably use any similar 'dark weave' on another plane. For that matter, spellcasters using the Weave on Toril often get a few surprises when they try to use (or regain) spells while on other planes. Not everything works the same - and results can also vary over time and location, and from individual to individual. Travel away from home, as they say, is always an adventure. :}

And secondly (even more damning): Dead Magic Zones in Faerûn are a places where the Weave is teared/absent; magic doesn't works there - but only Weave-dependent magic. And you know where else Weave is also absent? Everywhere - outside of Realmspace! So, apparently, faerûnian spellcasters are just really bad at traveling out of their cozy little sphere.

or when non-natives pop by for a visit, and in fact there are plenty of non-Weave users on Toril itself, like the plumaweavers and hishnashapers of Maztica, and so on.

And where did I said outsiders have a problems with spellcasting in Faerûn? AFAIK, it's the other way around...

If you assume that anyone who does something bad enough to be cut off by Mystra would be willing to swear allegiance to Shar to gain Shadow Weave access, when they were likely doing something sufficiently self-centered and evil to be incompatible with submitting to Shar, sure.

Maybe, my understanding of English isn't good enough, but I'm unable to comprehend what's you wanted to say there...

In each book listing lich stats, it mentions some form of horrible ritual. I think the details were dropped on purpose because there are idiots who would actually try something like that. Given the history regarding D&D, that's not something they need. The ritual is evil. Leave it at that. People don't need to read something like "and, after stabbing a child in the back 3 times, you must carefully remove his internal organs and eat them raw, while the child still lives and is forced to watch" in a rules manual for a game.

In each book?

Spoiler: Let's see...

Show

LICHES: These skeletal monsters are of magical origin, each Lich formerly being a very powerful Magic-User or Magic-User/Cleric in life, and now alive only by means of great spells and will because of being in some way disturbed. A Lich ranges from 12th level upwards, typically being 18th level of Magic-Use. They are able to employ whatever spells are usable at their appropriate level, and in addition their touch causes paralyzation, no saving throw. The mere sight of a Lich will send creatures below 5th level fleeing in fear.

A lich exists because of its own desires and the use of powerful and arcane magic. The lich passes from a state of humanity to a non-human, nonliving existence through force of will. It retains this status by certain conjurations, enchantments, and a phylactery. A lich is most often encountered within its hidden chambers, this lair typically being in some wilderness area or vast underground labyrinth, and in any case both solidly constructed of stone and very dark. Through the power which changes this creature from human to lich, the armor class becomes the equivalent of +1 plate armor and + 1 shield (armor class 0). Similarly, hit dice are 8-sided, and the lich can be affected only by magical attack forms or by monsters with magical properties or 6 or more hit dice.
Liches were formerly ultra powerful magic-users or magic-user/clerics of not less than 18th level of magic-use. Their touch is so cold as to cause 1-10 points of damage and paralyze opponents who fail to make their saving throw. The mere sight of a lich will cause any creature below 5th level (or 5 hit dice) to flee in panic from fear. All liches are able to use magic appropriate to the level they had attained prior to becoming non-human.
The following spells or attack forms have no effect on liches: charm, sleep, enfeeblement, polymorph, cold, electricity, insanity or death spells/symbols.
Description: A lich appears very much as does a wight or mummy, being of skeletal form, eyesockets mere black holes with glowing points of light, and garments most often rotting (but most rich).

A lich is a powerful undead monster of magical origin. It looks like a skeleton wearing fine garments, and was once an evil and chaotic magic-user or cleric of level 21 or greater (often 27-36). A lich is still able to use spells as it did while alive, so is extremely dangerous.
The very sight of a lich causes fear in all characters below 5th level (no saving throw). Its merest touch causes 1-10 points ofdamage, and can paralyze any creature for 1-100 days (though a saving throw applies, and the paralysis is magically dispellable).
Before any encounter with a lich, the DM should select spells for the creature. This should be done with care, as a lich is extremely intelligent and uses them to its best advantage. Note that morale is given as 10, but a lich flees if in actual danger. A lich is not normally found wandering, but instead remains in or very near a well-defended lair. Outside of its lair, a lich always carries 2-5 powerful magic items to be used in case of trouble. You should choose these, not randomly determine them. Within its lair, a lich has 4-32 additional temporary magic items (or more), plus the amounts of coins, gems, and jewelry given for Treasure Type H (but at 90% chance for each type). The number and severity of traps and other dangers to intruders should be appropriate to protect such a hoard.
Liches are undead, and can be Turned (but not destroyed) by clerics. They are immune to charm, sleep, feeblemind, polymorph, cold, lightning, and death spells, and can only be harmed by magical weapons. They are also immune to the effects of all spells of less than 4th level.
A magic-user lich normally has 1-2 spells on it of permanent nature-most often detect invisible or fly.
A cleric lich normally has 3-12 types of other undead nearby, acting as servants. A full lair of each type (maximum number appearing) is usually present.
Either type of lich can summon other powerful undead for aid. The summons can be made simply by concentrating, and the creature(s) responding arrive 1-100 rounds later, depending on their distance. The summons may be made as often as desired, but any one type of creature will respond only once per day at most. To randomly determine the creatures appearing in answer to the summons, roll 1d20 and refer to the following table. Roll again if a type of creature has already responded that day.

A lich is a powerful undead monster of magical origin. It looks like a skeleton wearing fine garments, and was once an evil and chaotic magic-user or cleric of level 21 or greater (often 27-36). A lich is still able to use spells as it did while alive, so it is extremely dangerous. A lich is not normally found wandering, but instead remains in or very near a well-defended lair. Such a lair might be a dungeon, catacomb, tomb, or necropolis ("city of the dead").
The very sight of a lich causes fear in all characters below 5th level (no saving throw). Its merest touch causes 1d10 points of damage, and can paralyze any creature for 1d100 days (though a saving throw applies, and the paralysis is magically dispellable).
Before any encounter with a lich, the DM should select spells for the creature. This should be done with care, as a lich is extremely intelligent and uses them to its best advantage. Note that the lich's morale is given as 10, but a lich flees if in actual danger.
Liches are undead, and can be turned (but not destroyed) by clerics. They are immune to charm, sleep, feeblemind, polymorph, cold, lightning, and death spells, and can be harmed only by magical weapons. They are also immune to the effects of all spells of less than 4th level.
Outside of its lair, a lich always carries 1d4 +1 powerful magical items to be used in case of trouble. You should choose these, not randomly determine them. Within its lair, a lich has 4d8 additional temporary magical items (or more), plus the amounts of coins, gems, and jewelry given for Treasure Type H in Chapter 16 (but at 90% chance for each type). The number and severity of traps and other dangers to intruders should be appropriate to protect such a hoard.
A magic-user lich normally has ld2 spells on it of permanent nature—most often detect invisible or fly.
A clerical lich normally has 3d4 types of other undead nearby, acting as servants. A full lair of each type (maximum number appearing) is usually present.
Either type of lich can summon other powerful undead for aid. The summons can be made simply by concentrating, and the creature(s) responding arrive 1d100 rounds later, depending on their distance. The summons may be made as often as desired, but any one type of creature will respond only once per day at most. To randomly determine the creatures appearing in answer to the summons, roll 1d20 and refer to the table. Roll again if a type of creature has already responded that day.
Liches are master villains, coordinating armies and spy-networks made up of the undead. Each one has its own goal: One may want to achieve true Immortality, one may serve an evil Immortal of Entropy, one may wish to transform the entire world into a horrid playground for the undead. Each lich in a campaign should have its own name, style, and motivation.
Terrain: Ruins.

A lich was originally a wizard or priest of at least 18th level. The creatures are so powerful they continuing to live after death. They are gaunt, skeletal creatures whose black, empty eyesockets contain pinpoints of light that serve the creatures as eyes. A lich can exist for centuries; its will drives it to master new magics. It avoids combat but is powerful in battle.

The lich is, perhaps, the single most powerful form of undead known to exist. They seek to further their own power at all costs and have little or no interest in the affairs of the living, except where those affairs interfere with their own.
A lich greatly resembles a wight or mummy, being gaunt and skeletal in form. The creature's eye sockets are black and empty save for the fierce pinpoints of light which serve the lich as eyes. The lich can see with normal vision in even the darkest of environments but is unaffected by even the brightest light . An aura of cold and darkness radiates from the lich which makes it an ominous and fearsome sight. They were originally wizards of at least 18th level, Liches are often (75%) garbed in the rich clothes of nobility. If not so attired, the lich will be found in the robes of its former profession. In either case, the clothes will be tattered and rotting with a 25% chance of being magical in some way.
Habitat/Society: Liches are usually solitary creatures. They have cast aside their places as living beings by choice and now want as little to do with the world of men as possible. From time to time, however, a lich's interest in the world at large may be reawakened by some great event of personal importance.
A lich will make its home in some ominous fortified area, often strong keep or vast subterranean crypt.
When a lich does decide to become involved with the world beyond its lair, its keen intelligence makes it a dangerous adversary. In some cases, a lich will depend on its magical powers to accomplish its goals. If this is not sufficient, however, the lich is quite capable, animating a force of undead troops to act on its behalf. If such is the case, the lich's endless patience and cunning more than make up for the inherent disadvantages of the lesser forms of undead which it commands.
Although the lich has no interest in good or evil as we understand it, the creature will do whatever it must to further its own causes. Since it feels that the living an of little importance, the lich is often viewed as evil by those who encounter it. In rare cases, liches of a most unusual nature can be found which are of any alignment. The lich can exist for centuries without change. Its will drives it onward to master new magics and harness mystical powers not available to it in its previous life. So obsessed does the monster become with its quest for power that it often forgets its former existence utterly. Few liches call themselves by their old names when the years have drained the last vestiges of their humanity from them. Instead, they often adopt pseudonyms like "the Black Hand" or "the Forgotten King." Learning the true name of a lich is rumored to confer power over the creature.
Ecology: The lich is not a thing of this world. Although it was once a living creature, it has entered into an unnatural existence. In order to become a lich, the wizard must prepare its phylactery by the use of the enchant an item, magic jar, permanency and reincarnation spells. The phylactery, which can be almost any manner of object, must be of the finest craftsmanship and materials with a value of not less than 1,500 gold pieces per level of the wizard. Once this object is created, the would-be lich must craft a potion of extreme toxicity, which is then enchanted with the following spells: wraithform, permanency, cone of cold, feign death, and animate dead. When next the moon is full, the potion is imbibed. Rather than death, the potion causes the wizard to undergo a transformation into its new state. A system shock survival throw is required, with failure indicating an error in the creation of the potion which kills the wizard and renders him forever dead.

A lich is an undead spellcaster created by means of an ancient ritual. Wizards and other arcane spellcasters who choose this path to immortality escape death by becoming undead, but prolonged existence in this state often drives them mad.
Liches are evil arcane masterminds that pursue the path of undeath to achieve immortality. They are cold, scheming creatures who hunger for ever-greater power, long-forgotten knowledge, and the most terrible of arcane secrets.
Some liches know a ritual that sustains them beyond destruction by tying their essence to a phylactery. When a lich who has performed this ritual is reduced to 0 hit points, its body and possessions crumble into dust, but it is not destroyed. It reappears (along with its possessions) in 1d10 days within 1 square of its phylactery, unless the phylactery is also found and destroyed.

Where?!. Where is the "horrible ritual"? I don't seen it!

I have not read of any baelnorn outside of mythals.

Well, Baelnorn entries in the Monsters of Faerûn and the Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume One are have no mentions of mythals (Although I don't remember such statements even in the Ruins of Myth Drannor or Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves...)

I have not ever seen an example of "good lich." It's possible to make a good lich after the fact a la helm of opposite alignment. But if there is a method for good people to gain lichdom, I would think it would be more widely touted. Where are these "good liches" listed?

In the Monstrous Manual (1993), Monsters of Faerûn, and Libris Mortis.

[Calthropstu]

It's a nice fan theory, but is there any proofs?

And who said you can't? Where it's written?

Oh, come on - she was nothing beside Jergal (pre-Dark Three)

Please, excuse me, but since when the "physics" and "reality itself" is in the Mystra's portfolio?

Well, the Epic Spellcasting is still working just fine, so - technically - nothing prevents the second casting of Karsus's avatar...

Let me to disagree with you:
Firstly:And secondly (even more damning): Dead Magic Zones in Faerûn are a places where the Weave is teared/absent; magic doesn't works there - but only Weave-dependent magic. And you know where else Weave is also absent? Everywhere - outside of Realmspace! So, apparently, faerûnian spellcasters are just really bad at traveling out of their cozy little sphere.

And where did I said outsiders have a problems with spellcasting in Faerûn? AFAIK, it's the other way around...

Maybe, my understanding of English isn't good enough, but I'm unable to comprehend what's you wanted to say there...


In each book?

Spoiler: Let's see...

Show

Where?!. Where is the "horrible ritual"? I don't seen it!

Well, Baelnorn entries in the Monsters of Faerûn and the Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume One are have no mentions of mythals (Although I don't remember such statements even in the Ruins of Myth Drannor or Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves...)

In the Monstrous Manual (1993), Monsters of Faerûn, and Libris Mortis.

huh. I could have sworn it was in all 3 entries I read including the 2e, 3e and 3.5 e. But that 1993 one is definitely the 2e entry. I delved further, and apparently the ritual includes imbibing poison and anointing yourself with a mixture made from a fresh heart and imbuing it with necromancy.
It is the "fresh heart" that causes concern.

Now, rules lawyers might say "Hah, it can be an animal heart. Killing animals isn't evil." But the intent is ignored with that interpretation. This is described as pure evil, so it's probably a humanoid heart that is required. And since it needs to be fresh, murder is required. So basically, kill someone to keep yourself a walking corpse.
Good liches are mentioned, I can't find an example of one though.

All of the baelnorns I could originally find were tied to mythals. On more careful examination, however, I found the srinshee who predates the mythals and helped lead the effort to create it. That explains why each mythal had a baelnorn watcher tied to the control gem.
Hmmm. It also appears some have been created spontaneously by the Seldarine. Interesting.

[CIDE]

Since it's tied to a bit of what's going on how exactly would an Artificer fair in all this? Is their whole schtick going to be stuck relying on the weave while in the realms?

[hamishspence]

All of the baelnorns I could originally find were tied to mythals. On more careful examination, however, I found the srinshee who predates the mythals and helped lead the effort to create it.

Mythals might have been associated with Mythanatar, who. devised the Myth Drannor mythal - but plenty existed before him - they were just called something different before him.

The Dracorage Mythal, for example, might not have been called exactly that when it was created, some 25,000+ years before the present era of Faerun - but it was still the same kind of magic.

[Quertus]

For that matter, spellcasters using the Weave on Toril often get a few surprises when they try to use (or regain) spells while on other planes. Not everything works the same - and results can also vary over time and location, and from individual to individual. Travel away from home, as they say, is always an adventure. :}

Tbh, this doesn't sound any different from any other mage changing worlds / GMs.

Studying this phenomenon is no small part of what led to Quertus (my signature academia mage, for whom this account is named) becoming the Wizard he is today.

[rmnimoc]

Well, the Epic Spellcasting is still working just fine, so - technically - nothing prevents the second casting of Karsus's avatar...

Didn't Mystra basically take that spell and just toss it out of reality or something? Granted that makes zero sense to me, but who am I to tell a goddess of magic what she can or can't do with magic. I think it was mentioned in Powers and Pantheons, but my copy of that is long lost and my memories of it aren't exactly perfect.

Let me to disagree with you:
Firstly:And secondly (even more damning): Dead Magic Zones in Faerûn are a places where the Weave is teared/absent; magic doesn't works there - but only Weave-dependent magic. And you know where else Weave is also absent? Everywhere - outside of Realmspace! So, apparently, faerûnian spellcasters are just really bad at traveling out of their cozy little sphere.

Apparently Elminster regularly popped into our world to bum beer from Ed Greenwood until TSR got worried kids would go looking for portals and get hurt or killed and they'd get sued. If Elminster can cast magic here, then either Mystra stretches to this world, Elminster carries the weave with him everywhere he goes (it's possible, he's rather important to Mystra, he carries a bunch of Mystra's power with him, and he's fairly impressive as far as wizards go), or weave-based magic works without the weave. It could be any of them really, since apparently Earth and Toril were connected at one point.

Where?!. Where is the "horrible ritual"? I don't seen it!

I'm not really sure what the horrible ritual is, but I seem to recall the d20SRD saying that a lich's alignment is "Any Evil" and and that "The process of becoming a lich is unspeakably evil and can be undertaken only by a willing character". Not sure how relevant that is, but I figured I'd mention it.

[ShurikVch]

huh. I could have sworn it was in all 3 entries I read including the 2e, 3e and 3.5 e. But that 1993 one is definitely the 2e entry. I delved further, and apparently the ritual includes imbibing poison and anointing yourself with a mixture made from a fresh heart and imbuing it with necromancy.
It is the "fresh heart" that causes concern.

Now, rules lawyers might say "Hah, it can be an animal heart. Killing animals isn't evil." But the intent is ignored with that interpretation. This is described as pure evil, so it's probably a humanoid heart that is required. And since it needs to be fresh, murder is required. So basically, kill someone to keep yourself a walking corpse.

Is it from the Van Richten's Guide to Liches?
Note: referring to Ravenloft materials may be not the best idea, because the local Undead always was "a little different"
At the very least, Aumvor the Undying - despite being horrible villain - did no such thing: his lichdom was a Contingency

Good liches are mentioned, I can't find an example of one though.

OK, Ezzat from The Ruins of Undermountain II is Neutral Good; and Dethed from Netheril: Empire of Magic - Chaotic Neutral

Didn't Mystra basically take that spell and just toss it out of reality or something? Granted that makes zero sense to me, but who am I to tell a goddess of magic what she can or can't do with magic. I think it was mentioned in Powers and Pantheons, but my copy of that is long lost and my memories of it aren't exactly perfect.

That's the thing: the original Karsus's avatar was made in Arcane Age magical system (spontaneous, point-based).
By changing the magic system, Mystra turned all the old spells into useless gibberish.
But Epic Spellcasting is able to reproduce any spell - no limits...

Apparently Elminster regularly popped into our world to bum beer from Ed Greenwood until TSR got worried kids would go looking for portals and get hurt or killed and they'd get sued. If Elminster can cast magic here, then either Mystra stretches to this world, Elminster carries the weave with him everywhere he goes (it's possible, he's rather important to Mystra, he carries a bunch of Mystra's power with him, and he's fairly impressive as far as wizards go), or weave-based magic works without the weave. It could be any of them really, since apparently Earth and Toril were connected at one point.

You're forgetting the fact Elminster have Epic Spellcasting - he don't need the Weave for his magic!

I'm not really sure what the horrible ritual is, but I seem to recall the d20SRD saying that a lich's alignment is "Any Evil" and and that "The process of becoming a lich is unspeakably evil and can be undertaken only by a willing character". Not sure how relevant that is, but I figured I'd mention it.

And despite that, they published Monsters of Faerûn, which have Baelnorn and Archlich under the "Lich, Good" header; and later - Good Lich among the "Lich Variants" in the Libris Mortis...

[PairO'Dice Lost]

It's a nice fan theory, but is there any proofs?

It's not a fan theory, it's the literal definition of the Weave you'll find in every FR book. Every inch of Toril is infused with oodles of raw magic, but locked up in such a way that it can't easily be accessed by mortals--and even if you can acccess it it's incredibly dangerous and uncontrollable--so the Weave serves as a conduit to allow that energy to be used.

And who said you can't? Where it's written?

...because 10th-, 11th-, and 12th-level spells aren't a default feature of the magic system, they're a form of epic-level-equivalent magic invented and used solely by Netherese arcanists.

That's like asking where it's written that a Wizard of the White Robes can't draw on Solinari's power outside of Krynn. Different crystal spheres have different laws of magic, that's just how it works and "But it doesn't say I can't!" doesn't fly.

(And before you ask, yes, it is made explicit that a Krynnish wizard can't draw on his moon outside of Krynnspace.)

Oh, come on - she was nothing beside Jergal (pre-Dark Three)

Hardly. The gods of murder, death, and "other fell forces" were explicitly created as a byproduct of Selûne and Shar fighting one another, to include Jergal, whereas Mystryl was created from the goddesses themselves. Jergal had enough power that he could divide it out to the Dead Three and make intermediate-to-greater deities out of them and still have enough power left to remain a demigod, but Mystra has a full half of her power invested in Azuth, the Magister, the Chosen, the shadowstaves, a bunch of artifacts, etc. and is still a powerful greater deity in that weakened state.

Please, excuse me, but since when the "physics" and "reality itself" is in the Mystra's portfolio?

Every atom in Realmspace is infused with magical power, which is and/or connects to Mystra's body, and Mystra can change the way magic functions at a whim. "Physics" isn't an official portfolio item, but it's as close as makes no difference.

Well, the Epic Spellcasting is still working just fine, so - technically - nothing prevents the second casting of Karsus's avatar...

No, nothing prevents someone from inventing an epic spell with similar effects to Karsus's avatar. But just as there's a massive difference between an hypothetical epic fireball spell that deals 10d6 fire damage in a 20-foot-radius sphere (but requires an epic spell slot and a DC 19 Spellcraft check to cast and 170,000 gp and 6,840 XP to research) and a fireball spell (a plain ol' 3rd-level spell), there's a massive difference between a 12th-level spell and an epic spell.

Karsus's avatar was just barely within the reach of a 41st-level Karsus, the most powerful Netherese Archwizard by far; an epic spellcasting versoin isn't getting cast by anyone any time soon.

Firstly:

Not everything works the same - and results can also vary over time and location, and from individual to individual. Travel away from home, as they say, is always an adventure. :}

I assume you're trying to claim that that line means that Weave-based spellcasters' magic stops working outside of Toril, but (A) the earlier portion of that quote makes it clear that non-Weave flows of magical energy exist elsewhere and are accessed in the same ways and (B) the "results vary" part is referring to the fact that magic has some sight variations on different planes, such as 2e clerics being weaker on the Outer Planes depending on how many planes they are away from their patron's home plane, 3e planes having Enhanced and Impeded Magic traits, and so forth.

Nothing in that quote implies a Torillian wizard taking a trip to Oerth or vice versa would have any difficulties, and given that (as rmnimoc noted) Elminster has canonically traveled to Krynn, Oerth, and Earth and had no issues using magic on any of those worlds, we know that that's explicitly not the case.

And secondly (even more damning): Dead Magic Zones in Faerûn are a places where the Weave is teared/absent; magic doesn't works there - but only Weave-dependent magic. And you know where else Weave is also absent? Everywhere - outside of Realmspace! So, apparently, faerûnian spellcasters are just really bad at traveling out of their cozy little sphere.

Weave-based magic doesn't work in dead magic zones because, as mentioned above, the raw magic of Toril is inaccessible without using the Weave (or an equivalent like the Shadow Weave) as an intermediary. Raw magic in other crystal spheres is accessible without any such intermediary, so no Weave is needed there.

It's like trying to access water in different environments. If you're in the desert, you need to dig into the sand, set up some sort of condenser, wait for the right environmental conditions, and so on, but if you're on the ocean you can just dunk a cup overboard and fill it up. A desert nomad on a sailing ship can (after presumably being incredibly seasick) can fill a cup of water just as well as a sailor, and a sailor in the desert can dig a hole in the sand just fine.

Maybe, my understanding of English isn't good enough, but I'm unable to comprehend what's you wanted to say there...

My point was that you just assume any caster would be happy to start worshiping Shar on a whim, but Shar is an evil goddess of entropy and oblivion. Good casters aren't going to swear devotion to Shar to get their magic access back, and evil casters who don't already worship Shar either are already serving a dark god/demon prince/etc. and so can't switch allegiance to Shar or are trying to make it on their own and aren't going to swear allegiance to anyone, Shar included. So Mystra cutting someone off is actually a legitimate concern because the alternative is highly non-trivial to access.

Didn't Mystra basically take that spell and just toss it out of reality or something? Granted that makes zero sense to me, but who am I to tell a goddess of magic what she can or can't do with magic. I think it was mentioned in Powers and Pantheons, but my copy of that is long lost and my memories of it aren't exactly perfect.

More specifically, she changed the way the Weave worked so that the Netherese methods of spellcasting (pulling arcs directly out of the Weave to cast spells without preparation, casting spells of 10th-level or higher, and similar) no longer functioned. In computer terms, the Netherese were exploiting bugs and security holes to get root access to the Weave network and do lots of things they shouldn't have been able to do, but after Karsus hacked Mystra's account she patched all the servers so none of their tricks worked anymore.

[rmnimoc]

That's the thing: the original Karsus's avatar was made in Arcane Age magical system (spontaneous, point-based).
By changing the magic system, Mystra turned all the old spells into useless gibberish.
But Epic Spellcasting is able to reproduce any spell - no limits...

I thought she did something specific to stop that spell forever in addition to changing the way magic worked.

You're forgetting the fact Elminster have Epic Spellcasting - he don't need the Weave for his magic!

You might think that, but I did actually consider it. I discounted that because he couldn't cast any spell more complicated than a cantrip without going temporarily insane after the Weave fell apart during the spellplague. If he didn't need the Weave thanks to epic magic, why'd he go insane trying to cast spells without the Weave (Elminster Must Die)?

It's like trying to access water in different environments. If you're in the desert, you need to dig into the sand, set up some sort of condenser, wait for the right environmental conditions, and so on, but if you're on the ocean you can just dunk a cup overboard and fill it up. A desert nomad on a sailing ship can (after presumably being incredibly seasick) can fill a cup of water just as well as a sailor, and a sailor in the desert can dig a hole in the sand just fine.

I'm not sure how much experience nomads have with salt-water. They'd probably try to drink it and die of dehydration. Which actually still fits the analogy pretty well. The sailor can dig a hole, but if the nomad tries to drink the sea without the right tools (something to desalinate the water - the weave in this analogy) he's going to have a pretty short trip.

[Quertus]

You might think that, but I did actually consider it. I discounted that because he couldn't cast any spell more complicated than a cantrip without going temporarily insane after the Weave fell apart during the spellplague. If he didn't need the Weave thanks to epic magic, why'd he go insane trying to cast spells without the Weave (Elminster Must Die)?

I'm not sure how much experience nomads have with salt-water. They'd probably try to drink it and die of dehydration. Which actually still fits the analogy pretty well. The sailor can dig a hole, but if the nomad tries to drink the sea without the right tools (something to desalinate the water - the weave in this analogy) he's going to have a pretty short trip.

I've seen plenty of examples of characters from FR traveling to other worlds, and finding that their magic still works (EDIT - although their FR-specific tricks, like 12th level spells, probably wouldn't work). Other than the *entire nations* that keep getting imported to (or exported from) FR, are there any specific examples of characters from other worlds traveling to Toril, for us to examine? (My own personal gaming experience says that Wizards from other worlds can cast just fine on Toril, but my GMs could have just been wrong *gasp*)

[Coidzor]

Checking around, it seems that no notable events happened between 1365 and the start of the Spellplague, so other than events that were ongoing at the time and continued up to the start of the Spellplague, there's no huge problems that would interfere with acquiring power the old-fashioned way. A decade is more than enough time to hit level 20 or even get a respectable distance into epic levels.

I must admit, though, I'm somewhat surprised no one mentioned going to Sigil as a means by which to avoid the Spellplague.

As for the subject of leaving Toril due to the gods, even laying aside the subject of morality or their fitness as objects of worship, the gods of Forgotten Realms are active and dangerous and would be especially so to someone from Earth who was actively acquiring power quickly, even if their intentions were just to leave Toril as quickly and safely as possible.

Simply knowing about Shar and Cyric's plan to kill Mystra and thinking about it could alert one or more of those deities and paint a massive target on a person, though, I must admit, I'm a bit rusty when it comes to the subject of the rules when it comes to gods' precognition and awareness when it comes to them and/or their portfolios and domains.

[EldritchWeaver]

No, nothing prevents someone from inventing an epic spell with similar effects to Karsus's avatar. But just as there's a massive difference between an hypothetical epic fireball spell that deals 10d6 fire damage in a 20-foot-radius sphere (but requires an epic spell slot and a DC 19 Spellcraft check to cast and 170,000 gp and 6,840 XP to research) and a fireball spell (a plain ol' 3rd-level spell), there's a massive difference between a 12th-level spell and an epic spell.

Karsus's avatar was just barely within the reach of a 41st-level Karsus, the most powerful Netherese Archwizard by far; an epic spellcasting versoin isn't getting cast by anyone any time soon.

Epic spellcasting so broken, that replicating any kind of spell can be mitigated down to DC 0. I think it involves researching an Int boost spell, which after you cast it, allows you to research a better version for the same non-cost. Cast it and research another improved version and so on, until you can research any kind of epic spell on the fly, if you still need something new.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Simply knowing about Shar and Cyric's plan to kill Mystra and thinking about it could alert one or more of those deities and paint a massive target on a person, though, I must admit, I'm a bit rusty when it comes to the subject of the rules when it comes to gods' precognition and awareness when it comes to them and/or their portfolios and domains.

It's a bit vague, but essentially they know about "anything that impacts their portfolio unless a more powerful god prevents them from finding out about it," which is suitably broad and vague, and greater deities know about things multiple weeks in advance.

Of course, if they were actually using those rules, Shar's stupid plan would never have happened because (A) "Mystra dying and magic going haywire" is firmly within Mystra's portfolio and (B) neither Shar nor Cyric nor any of their allied gods are of a higher divine rank than Mystra, so who knows how things would work out for our poor Earthling.

Epic spellcasting so broken, that replicating any kind of spell can be mitigated down to DC 0. I think it involves researching an Int boost spell, which after you cast it, allows you to research a better version for the same non-cost. Cast it and research another improved version and so on, until you can research any kind of epic spell on the fly, if you still need something new.

The Int-boost feedback loop is for casting spells of increasing DC; that doesn't help with reducing the research cost to 0. The epic spell DC mitigations involve taking damage (capped by your HD), burning XP (bad idea if you're casting a bunch in sequence), increasing the casting time (hard cap), or adding ritual participants. Only the last one is uncapped and can be used for the kind of feedback loop you're talking about, but that requires having tons of nonepic casters at your beck and call to help with those.

Considering that the Netherese, Imaskari, and other uber-archmages we're talking about tended to not even trust single apprentices, much less hordes of lesser casters who might potentially steal their secrets to give to their rivals, epic spellcasting is a poor substitute for traditional spells which can be researched much faster and cheaper and cast entirely on your own.

[unseenmage]

I do wonder which gods specifically would try to mess with an IRL meta knowledge using person rapidly acquiring power with the express purpose of GTFO tye Realms though?

And which god one could appeal to for any kind of legit protection?

[TheCount]

Of course, if they were actually using those rules, Shar's stupid plan would never have happened because (A) "Mystra dying and magic going haywire" is firmly within Mystra's portfolio and (B) neither Shar nor Cyric nor any of their allied gods are of a higher divine rank than Mystra, so who knows how things would work out for our poor Earthling.

or adding ritual participants. Only the last one is uncapped and can be used for the kind of feedback loop you're talking about, but that requires having tons of nonepic casters at your beck and call to help with those.

Considering that the Netherese, Imaskari, and other uber-archmages we're talking about tended to not even trust single apprentices, much less hordes of lesser casters who might potentially steal their secrets to give to their rivals, epic spellcasting is a poor substitute for traditional spells which can be researched much faster and cheaper and cast entirely on your own.

I do wonder which gods specifically would try to mess with an IRL meta knowledge using person rapidly acquiring power with the express purpose of GTFO tye Realms though?

And which god one could appeal to for any kind of legit protection?

1st: Ao seems the most likely subject to block other gods' porfolio sense, i mean, its like he wants the realm in constant chaos, while having as many ways to deny that statement as possible

for the spellcasting, brainwashed apprentices? i mean, you could start a magic school, with the initation a single command of "follow the given instructuions after command word XYZ" then, when you want to cast these spells, call every student, maybe teachers you trust (brainwashed or not) and there is at least a 100 spellcasters of varying levels..... possibly every one of them supported by CL boosters.

as for protection? well.... mystra would be nice, alas, she is busy and probably wouldnt belive you....
Maybe one of the more reasonable gods.... but every phanteon has its problems...

for a story like this, i recommend: In my Times of Troubles. I like it, and thats all im saying about it. im terrible giving long explanations/desriptions

[Bohandas]

In each book?

Spoiler: Let's see...

Show

Originally Posted by Supplement I Greyhawk (1975)
LICHES: These skeletal monsters are of magical origin, each Lich formerly being a very powerful Magic-User or Magic-User/Cleric in life, and now alive only by means of great spells and will because of being in some way disturbed. A Lich ranges from 12th level upwards, typically being 18th level of Magic-Use. They are able to employ whatever spells are usable at their appropriate level, and in addition their touch causes paralyzation, no saving throw. The mere sight of a Lich will send creatures below 5th level fleeing in fear.
Quote Originally Posted by Monster Manual (1977)
A lich exists because of its own desires and the use of powerful and arcane magic. The lich passes from a state of humanity to a non-human, nonliving existence through force of will. It retains this status by certain conjurations, enchantments, and a phylactery. A lich is most often encountered within its hidden chambers, this lair typically being in some wilderness area or vast underground labyrinth, and in any case both solidly constructed of stone and very dark. Through the power which changes this creature from human to lich, the armor class becomes the equivalent of +1 plate armor and + 1 shield (armor class 0). Similarly, hit dice are 8-sided, and the lich can be affected only by magical attack forms or by monsters with magical properties or 6 or more hit dice.
Liches were formerly ultra powerful magic-users or magic-user/clerics of not less than 18th level of magic-use. Their touch is so cold as to cause 1-10 points of damage and paralyze opponents who fail to make their saving throw. The mere sight of a lich will cause any creature below 5th level (or 5 hit dice) to flee in panic from fear. All liches are able to use magic appropriate to the level they had attained prior to becoming non-human.
The following spells or attack forms have no effect on liches: charm, sleep, enfeeblement, polymorph, cold, electricity, insanity or death spells/symbols.
Description: A lich appears very much as does a wight or mummy, being of skeletal form, eyesockets mere black holes with glowing points of light, and garments most often rotting (but most rich).
Quote Originally Posted by Master Rules Boxed Set (1985)
A lich is a powerful undead monster of magical origin. It looks like a skeleton wearing fine garments, and was once an evil and chaotic magic-user or cleric of level 21 or greater (often 27-36). A lich is still able to use spells as it did while alive, so is extremely dangerous.
The very sight of a lich causes fear in all characters below 5th level (no saving throw). Its merest touch causes 1-10 points ofdamage, and can paralyze any creature for 1-100 days (though a saving throw applies, and the paralysis is magically dispellable).
Before any encounter with a lich, the DM should select spells for the creature. This should be done with care, as a lich is extremely intelligent and uses them to its best advantage. Note that morale is given as 10, but a lich flees if in actual danger. A lich is not normally found wandering, but instead remains in or very near a well-defended lair. Outside of its lair, a lich always carries 2-5 powerful magic items to be used in case of trouble. You should choose these, not randomly determine them. Within its lair, a lich has 4-32 additional temporary magic items (or more), plus the amounts of coins, gems, and jewelry given for Treasure Type H (but at 90% chance for each type). The number and severity of traps and other dangers to intruders should be appropriate to protect such a hoard.
Liches are undead, and can be Turned (but not destroyed) by clerics. They are immune to charm, sleep, feeblemind, polymorph, cold, lightning, and death spells, and can only be harmed by magical weapons. They are also immune to the effects of all spells of less than 4th level.
A magic-user lich normally has 1-2 spells on it of permanent nature-most often detect invisible or fly.
A cleric lich normally has 3-12 types of other undead nearby, acting as servants. A full lair of each type (maximum number appearing) is usually present.
Either type of lich can summon other powerful undead for aid. The summons can be made simply by concentrating, and the creature(s) responding arrive 1-100 rounds later, depending on their distance. The summons may be made as often as desired, but any one type of creature will respond only once per day at most. To randomly determine the creatures appearing in answer to the summons, roll 1d20 and refer to the following table. Roll again if a type of creature has already responded that day.
Quote Originally Posted by Dungeons & Dragons Rules Cyclopedia (1991)
A lich is a powerful undead monster of magical origin. It looks like a skeleton wearing fine garments, and was once an evil and chaotic magic-user or cleric of level 21 or greater (often 27-36). A lich is still able to use spells as it did while alive, so it is extremely dangerous. A lich is not normally found wandering, but instead remains in or very near a well-defended lair. Such a lair might be a dungeon, catacomb, tomb, or necropolis ("city of the dead").
The very sight of a lich causes fear in all characters below 5th level (no saving throw). Its merest touch causes 1d10 points of damage, and can paralyze any creature for 1d100 days (though a saving throw applies, and the paralysis is magically dispellable).
Before any encounter with a lich, the DM should select spells for the creature. This should be done with care, as a lich is extremely intelligent and uses them to its best advantage. Note that the lich's morale is given as 10, but a lich flees if in actual danger.
Liches are undead, and can be turned (but not destroyed) by clerics. They are immune to charm, sleep, feeblemind, polymorph, cold, lightning, and death spells, and can be harmed only by magical weapons. They are also immune to the effects of all spells of less than 4th level.
Outside of its lair, a lich always carries 1d4 +1 powerful magical items to be used in case of trouble. You should choose these, not randomly determine them. Within its lair, a lich has 4d8 additional temporary magical items (or more), plus the amounts of coins, gems, and jewelry given for Treasure Type H in Chapter 16 (but at 90% chance for each type). The number and severity of traps and other dangers to intruders should be appropriate to protect such a hoard.
A magic-user lich normally has ld2 spells on it of permanent nature—most often detect invisible or fly.
A clerical lich normally has 3d4 types of other undead nearby, acting as servants. A full lair of each type (maximum number appearing) is usually present.
Either type of lich can summon other powerful undead for aid. The summons can be made simply by concentrating, and the creature(s) responding arrive 1d100 rounds later, depending on their distance. The summons may be made as often as desired, but any one type of creature will respond only once per day at most. To randomly determine the creatures appearing in answer to the summons, roll 1d20 and refer to the table. Roll again if a type of creature has already responded that day.
Liches are master villains, coordinating armies and spy-networks made up of the undead. Each one has its own goal: One may want to achieve true Immortality, one may serve an evil Immortal of Entropy, one may wish to transform the entire world into a horrid playground for the undead. Each lich in a campaign should have its own name, style, and motivation.
Terrain: Ruins.
Quote Originally Posted by Trading Cards Factory Set (1991)
A lich was originally a wizard or priest of at least 18th level. The creatures are so powerful they continuing to live after death. They are gaunt, skeletal creatures whose black, empty eyesockets contain pinpoints of light that serve the creatures as eyes. A lich can exist for centuries; its will drives it to master new magics. It avoids combat but is powerful in battle.
Quote Originally Posted by Monstrous Manual (1993)
The lich is, perhaps, the single most powerful form of undead known to exist. They seek to further their own power at all costs and have little or no interest in the affairs of the living, except where those affairs interfere with their own.
A lich greatly resembles a wight or mummy, being gaunt and skeletal in form. The creature's eye sockets are black and empty save for the fierce pinpoints of light which serve the lich as eyes. The lich can see with normal vision in even the darkest of environments but is unaffected by even the brightest light . An aura of cold and darkness radiates from the lich which makes it an ominous and fearsome sight. They were originally wizards of at least 18th level, Liches are often (75%) garbed in the rich clothes of nobility. If not so attired, the lich will be found in the robes of its former profession. In either case, the clothes will be tattered and rotting with a 25% chance of being magical in some way.
Habitat/Society: Liches are usually solitary creatures. They have cast aside their places as living beings by choice and now want as little to do with the world of men as possible. From time to time, however, a lich's interest in the world at large may be reawakened by some great event of personal importance.
A lich will make its home in some ominous fortified area, often strong keep or vast subterranean crypt.
When a lich does decide to become involved with the world beyond its lair, its keen intelligence makes it a dangerous adversary. In some cases, a lich will depend on its magical powers to accomplish its goals. If this is not sufficient, however, the lich is quite capable, animating a force of undead troops to act on its behalf. If such is the case, the lich's endless patience and cunning more than make up for the inherent disadvantages of the lesser forms of undead which it commands.
Although the lich has no interest in good or evil as we understand it, the creature will do whatever it must to further its own causes. Since it feels that the living an of little importance, the lich is often viewed as evil by those who encounter it. In rare cases, liches of a most unusual nature can be found which are of any alignment. The lich can exist for centuries without change. Its will drives it onward to master new magics and harness mystical powers not available to it in its previous life. So obsessed does the monster become with its quest for power that it often forgets its former existence utterly. Few liches call themselves by their old names when the years have drained the last vestiges of their humanity from them. Instead, they often adopt pseudonyms like "the Black Hand" or "the Forgotten King." Learning the true name of a lich is rumored to confer power over the creature.
Ecology: The lich is not a thing of this world. Although it was once a living creature, it has entered into an unnatural existence. In order to become a lich, the wizard must prepare its phylactery by the use of the enchant an item, magic jar, permanency and reincarnation spells. The phylactery, which can be almost any manner of object, must be of the finest craftsmanship and materials with a value of not less than 1,500 gold pieces per level of the wizard. Once this object is created, the would-be lich must craft a potion of extreme toxicity, which is then enchanted with the following spells: wraithform, permanency, cone of cold, feign death, and animate dead. When next the moon is full, the potion is imbibed. Rather than death, the potion causes the wizard to undergo a transformation into its new state. A system shock survival throw is required, with failure indicating an error in the creation of the potion which kills the wizard and renders him forever dead.
Quote Originally Posted by 4E
A lich is an undead spellcaster created by means of an ancient ritual. Wizards and other arcane spellcasters who choose this path to immortality escape death by becoming undead, but prolonged existence in this state often drives them mad.
Liches are evil arcane masterminds that pursue the path of undeath to achieve immortality. They are cold, scheming creatures who hunger for ever-greater power, long-forgotten knowledge, and the most terrible of arcane secrets.
Some liches know a ritual that sustains them beyond destruction by tying their essence to a phylactery. When a lich who has performed this ritual is reduced to 0 hit points, its body and possessions crumble into dust, but it is not destroyed. It reappears (along with its possessions) in 1d10 days within 1 square of its phylactery, unless the phylactery is also found and destroyed.

Where?!. Where is the "horrible ritual"? I don't seen it!

Found it. Or one mention of it at any rate. Dragon #272 pg55

"Each method requires the would-be lich to perform acts of horrendous evil in preparing a potion that aids the transformation, culminating in sacrifices that should turn the stomach of any sane character."

[Bphill561]

I did not read the entire thread, but what about making friends with a Time Dragon and going back in time long enough you don't have to worry about the spell plague?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

1st: Ao seems the most likely subject to block other gods' porfolio sense, i mean, its like he wants the realm in constant chaos, while having as many ways to deny that statement as possible

Eh, not really. As presented, much like the Lady of Pain, Ao doesn't really want things at a level mortals understand; the Lady and Ao just have one overriding goal (keep Sigil neutral, keep the gods doing their jobs right) and will do whatever is necessary to attain that. So Ao doesn't "want" the Realms in chaos, but he doesn't "want" them running like a well-oiled machine, either, he just wants the gods to follow the rules and whatever happens to mortals happens.

Of course, the depiction of Ao in the Avatar Trilogy does conflict with that somewhat (as happens whenever you try to include an unknowable cosmic being as a character with a speaking role), and that's assuming he's not lying about his overriding goals, but assuming good faith on the part of the setting authors, the above is actually the case and so he's likely to not intervene to help or impede you as long as you're not trying to muck around with the gods directly.

for the spellcasting, brainwashed apprentices? i mean, you could start a magic school, with the initation a single command of "follow the given instructuions after command word XYZ" then, when you want to cast these spells, call every student, maybe teachers you trust (brainwashed or not) and there is at least a 100 spellcasters of varying levels..... possibly every one of them supported by CL boosters.

Sure, there's a bunch of stuff you can do to make epic magic cheaper, more workable, etc. The point is that epic magic was presented as being anywhere near as cheap, workable, powerful, or solo-able as Netherese 10th+ level spells, when that is manifestly not the case.

I would point out that 3e rules for epic spells are a very close conversion of the 2e rules for "True Dweomers" from the DM's Option: High Level Campaign book, which came out in 1995; Arcane Age: Netheril came out in 1996 (so the authors of the latter were aware of True Dweomers when setting up the Netherese magic system) and deliberately specified that only Netherese magic was barred for being too powerful after the Fall; and Secrets of the Magister says...

It is possible, in the Realms of today, to research True Dweomers and even new 9th-level spells to achieve specific, severely limited ends that resemble parts of what a 10th-level spell could achieve.

...so it is a known, in-setting fact that True Dweomers/epic spellcasting is inferior to 10th-level magic in all ways that matter.

Which isn't to say that epic spellcasting couldn't be helpful in the scenario presented, but "Oh, just whip up an epic spell version of X, problem solved" is definitely a non-starter.

I did not read the entire thread, but what about making friends with a Time Dragon and going back in time long enough you don't have to worry about the spell plague?

That's certainly an option, and there are plenty of other methods of time travel on Toril to try as well. Unfortunately, Mystra keeps an eye on that and regulates it like she does magic, so while that might help you personally it would also get Mystra involved like any of the other "use super-powerful magic to fix it" solutions, which may be undesirable.

[Coidzor]

Sure, there's a bunch of stuff you can do to make epic magic cheaper, more workable, etc. The point is that epic magic was presented as being anywhere near as cheap, workable, powerful, or solo-able as Netherese 10th+ level spells, when that is manifestly not the case.

I would point out that 3e rules for epic spells are a very close conversion of the 2e rules for "True Dweomers" from the DM's Option: High Level Campaign book, which came out in 1995; Arcane Age: Netheril came out in 1996 (so the authors of the latter were aware of True Dweomers when setting up the Netherese magic system) and deliberately specified that only Netherese magic was barred for being too powerful after the Fall; and Secrets of the Magister says...

Oh, that's pretty neat, thank you for that information.

That's certainly an option, and there are plenty of other methods of time travel on Toril to try as well. Unfortunately, Mystra keeps an eye on that and regulates it like she does magic, so while that might help you personally it would also get Mystra involved like any of the other "use super-powerful magic to fix it" solutions, which may be undesirable.

There might also be some... issues with other divine precognition if you had any specific plans for when you went back in time. Maybe?

At any rate, if you, say, want to go back in time so that you can kill Gond and take his portfolio on for yourself, it's best to never actually think of that plan until the Time of Troubles actually begins. Especially since you'll want to acquire power before the Time of Troubles begins rather than trying to power level rapidly during it.

Since it's tied to a bit of what's going on how exactly would an Artificer fair in all this? Is their whole schtick going to be stuck relying on the weave while in the realms?

I believe magic items interact with the weave when they're in Realmspace/on Toril, though they still function normally on the planes and outside of Realmspace.

Magic items were rendered inert or mutated by the Spellplague, and not all of them regained their powers by the time things stabilized or after the Second Sundering.

Since Artificers don't directly cast spells, they probably wouldn't have the whole casting spells makes you go crazy issue that many mages had during the Spellplague, but they also probably wouldn't be able to do much until after things stabilized, either.

[Tallyn]

Stop; in this analogy, the demons are only there because of the emperor in the first place. (After all, the presumed “reality depends on the continued existence of the gods” thing —which is somewhat dubious, since FR gods have died before— and the Wall of the Faithless don’t have to exist, and didn’t use to, but only do because of Ao/the gods.)

Also, to push the analogy, the emperor has the ability to grant magical boons to those who believe and bolster his life force, but has decided to throw his people to the demons instead. He’s such a lousy emperor that as soon as anyone keeps him from even temporarily chumming his subjects as demon chow, people stop worshiping him; arguably if people only “worship” him out of fear of demons, they don’t actually believe in/worship him per se....

Also, reminds me of a couple of book series,

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Namely, The Spirit Thief series, in which the analog to the emperor in this example turns out to be omnicidally crazy-evil, or even the Mistborn series, in which the actual emperor is unrepentantly evil in no small part because of the mess he made of the world.

Also? Emperors have died before and there were no demons, except for this one time when only some plot demons got in and did just enough destruction to change editions the empire before everything went back to a normal state of divine extortion.



Except the Emperor poisoned the world, and the poor fools getting turned into demon-chum are the ones with the audacity to find the poisoner unworthy of devotion, since he’s more interested in being Emperor forever than doing his job or even finding a way out of the demon-riddled dystopia he’s brought down on his people and lands.




Being told that you have to worship gods because they possibly screwed up the world and more to the pont you’ll be tortured if you don’t, rather than for any positive symbiotic loop, is a slap in the face.

This sounds dangerously like heresy to me ;)