OOTS #1181 - The Discussion Thread

[Mandor]

I'm not sure I've ever seen Hilgya look more like a PERSON, and less like a caricature.... ever.
I like it. And I'm forced to add some respect for her too.

Good show.

[hroþila]

Sorry, but that interpretation just really comes off as callous. No one's can expect them to deal with every possible issue, sure. But a better resolution for Hilgya than, "well, whatever, here's a cute picture of Durkon and his child," doesn't feel like that big of an ask. For me, that just overshadows the emotions of this installment.

What else can Durkon do at this very moment? He already said he'd have the case arbitrated if needed - presumably that could result in a parent losing custody under certain circumstances. That's still Durkon's legal recourse, if he later comes to the conclusion that he should take Kudzu away from his mother for his own good. They can't deal with this right now in any other way unless you're suggesting they give Hilgya a beating or even kill her and then steal her baby.

I don't think it's callous at all, just as ditching the Western continent and focusing on their quest wasn't callous. This isn't a resolution in that it's not suggesting that everything's fixed. This is a resolution in that things have been stabilized and can be properly dealt with later (hence what Durkon said about working out an arrangement when he's back).

[bunsen_h]

Even assuming she doesn't, her going "if my baby dies I can just have him resurrected so I'll take the risk" in and of itself would count as a strike against her to me (and any other parent, for that matter).

Dying and being raised/whatever costs a level. How does that work for young children?

EDIT: Or is there still the "lose a CON point" option? I'm used to older rules.

[Jasdoif]

Dying and being raised/whatever costs a level. How does that work for young children?

If you're first level, you permanently lose two points of Constitution. If you don't have two points of Constitution to lose...you're out of luck life without true resurrection.

[Sindeloke]

Any sch tonal mismatch only arises if you perceive Hilgya as a character that is supposed to be sympathetic though. There would be no such mismatch if Xykon were to act similarly. But I don't think there's anything in the comic that suggests that Hilgya is supposed to be sympathetic - she is simply an evil character who does evil things. I don't think the giant foresaw that some people would seize on things like her gender to perceive her as sympathetic.

I do think it's fairly obvious she's meant to be Evil, but I definitely think we're supposed to also be largely okay with it, much as we are with Belkar. Every other character in the Order so far who has had a familial arc has had it resolved in either a "just" or a "good" way. Tarquin was defeated by his own rules and Nale was stripped of his team, power, and the affection of his father. Haley's father wasn't able to become what she needed from him, but she herself was able to finally stop needing that from him. Eugene is miserable in the Afterlife, forced to watch the son he resented accomplish the thing that he couldn't. V's family was saved, and when they chose to leave him for their own safety and happiness, he was mature and accepting about it. As a rule, things turn out okay in the end for our protagonists, and the people who oppose them suffer appropriate consequences. The heroes learn hard lessons and suffer losses and are forced to grow in response to adversity, but ultimately their arcs are resolved positively. The framing of this strip strongly suggests this is intended to be no different - it's a soft moment of hinted reconciliation designed to assure us that Durkon's difficult struggle with his unexpected fatherhood is over and he now has the access and wisdom to be the parent he wants to be. His family is safe, he's worked things out with his babymama, he'll be with his son, Hilgya is leaving the story, her part is done. Things aren't perfect, but they're acceptable, with a promise of future good.

If the Giant agreed with those of us who think Hilgya is a dangerously unfit parent and Kudzu's future is uncertain at best in her care, it would be very weird for him to end Durkon's book with Hilgya walking consequence-free and Kudzu-carrying into the sunset, tantamount to ending Elan's book with Tarquin's narratively triumphant death at Elan's hands or Haley's book with Crystal stabbing her dad and running away gloating. That's not "acceptable, with a promise of future good," it's "terrible, the good guys lost hard and the bad guys got away scot free."

[Peelee]

If you want to defend an impulsive murderer as a fit mother, then that's... I'm sorry, but that's not reasonable. At all.

I agree. I defended the Order not taking vengeance on her.

[gerryq]

5 gold on the last strip being Xykon and Redcloak at the last Gate.

Yeah, it makes sense dramatically to remind readers of the stakes.

[joela]

Damn...dust ninjas 😭😭😭!

[Ruck]

Spoiler

Show

She says she has a steady boyfriend in a Don’t Split the Party bonus strip (572f), but that’s literally all we know about him.

Lien also mentioned her boyfriend in this very book. She told O'Chul that she was lucky most people she knew lived on the waterfront, as most of them got away from Azure City.

And in any case, I highly doubt he's going to show up to join the Order after getting the news.

They're currently exposed to the frigid climate; it's not a traditional fridge, either (I'm pretty sure the term's scope has expanded, too...Even then it does, admittedly, depend a fair bit on whether "dead Lien and O-Chul" is meant to apply "dead" to O-Chul as well as Lien.)

Ah, I assumed it did mean that both of them were dead. Yeah, I suppose it would qualify if O-Chul is still alive, but I also think everyone on this mission is plenty motivated as is and doesn't need anyone further killed to drive home the stakes (which is just one of the reasons "dead Lien and O-Chul," for any state of O-Chul, is a bad storytelling idea).

Also, I read 3 pages of Hilgya arguments just to see if anybody else made these responses to those posts. :/

It took some practice, but I've gotten pretty good at skimming.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I'm glad Durkon and Hilgya didn't split up before, if not working out their issues, at least laying the groundwork for doing so. This is a much better note to split up on than "everything is a competition, and only losers [like you] think otherwise".

[Themrys]

I wonder why people assume that just because Kudzu is male and looks a bit like Durkon, he is fated to become a carbon copy of Durkon.

It is perfectly possible that even if the "Hilgya is a horrible mother because she behaves like a D&D adventurer instead of a real life human" criers got their will and Kudzu got ripped away from the only parent he ever knew to live with total strangers (yes, we all know that is very good for children's psychological development), he would still turn out chaotic and choose to worship Loki as soon as he heard of the option.

And then the question would be if Durkon would tolerate that. It might well be that he has changed a bit since he told Hilgya to go and live a life of misery, especially since he isn't so miserable himself anymore, but we don't know that.

Unless I missed something, Durkon didn't want to stop being friends with Malack because of his religion, or even because he was a vampire; he stopped being friends with Malack because he was hurting other people. Can we at least agree that hurting other people is wrong, or do we have to argue about that, too?

Tolerance is being friends with people even though they do things that you do not agree with.

Acceptance is being friends with people who don't do anything you would disapprove of, anyway.

Perhaps I shouldn't have brought up Malack, since his religion is very clearly evil, even though he managed to convince Durkon it was not. (And thus nothing Durkon would have to disapprove of anyway)


But Durkon's intolerance towards dwarves of chaotic alignment was very clear in what he said to Hilgya. He didn't say one word about her attempting to murder her husband, he didn't say anything about the Linear Guild, he just disapproved of her wanting freedom and happiness.


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Hilgya may be a terrible mother in the meta-sense in which Hogwarts is a really horrible boarding school that should have been closed yesterday. However, in that sense, each and every member of the Order of the Stick is an unrepentant murderer.
It is fun to point it out, yes, but the fact that people are so serious about it really scares me.



Okay, okay, there are some indicators that Hilgya is evil, and she would be a bad influence on Kudzu. Let's compromise.

I propose that Kudzu should be raised by a resurrected Miko. She'd keep him on the straight and narrow and make sure he doesn't turn out chaotic or evil. She wouldn't let him watch TV one second more than experts recommend, and perfectly stick to all the rules of parenting.

[The MunchKING]

I wonder why people assume that just because Kudzu is male and looks a bit like Durkon, he is fated to become a carbon copy of Durkon.

It seems that people are less sure that will happen, as worried that if he DID turn out like Durkon, she would kill him, like she killed Durkon.

[gerryq]

EDIT: Do you guys know what Steak and Shake is or am I talking about some random fast food chain that doesn't exist outside of my state

I live in Ireland and it doesn't exist here. We wouldn't even know what it means. Is 'Shake' a milkshake? I mean, we know of those but they are not big here.

We have a fast food joint called Supermac's - based in Galway, where I live - that just won a trademark battle in the EU with McDonalds.

[The MunchKING]

Yes, "Shake" in this context is usually short for "Milkshake".

[HalfTangible]

I wonder why people assume that just because Kudzu is male and looks a bit like Durkon, he is fated to become a carbon copy of Durkon.

I wonder why you think that, given that last I checked people were working through how Kudzu could be a druid.

It is perfectly possible that even if the "Hilgya is a horrible mother because she behaves like a D&D adventurer instead of a real life human" criers got their will and Kudzu got ripped away from the only parent he ever knew to live with total strangers (yes, we all know that is very good for children's psychological development), he would still turn out chaotic and choose to worship Loki as soon as he heard of the option.

And then the question would be if Durkon would tolerate that. It might well be that he has changed a bit since he told Hilgya to go and live a life of misery, especially since he isn't so miserable himself anymore, but we don't know that.

We have seen no indication whatsoever that Durkon is intolerant of other religious faiths. Quite the opposite, in fact, given he was friends with Malack right up until he found out the snake was vampire.

He doesn't like Hel, but given that she tortures and enslaves every dwarf she gets her disease-ridden hands on and also let her dark energy spirit take his body for a joy ride on a quest to destroy the world, I don't think that's unreasonable

But Durkon's intolerance towards dwarves of chaotic alignment was very clear in what he said to Hilgya. He didn't say one word about her attempting to murder her husband, he didn't say anything about the Linear Guild, he just disapproved of her wanting freedom and happiness.

One, he didn't say anything about the Linear Guild because she left them and stated openly that she hated working with them in the first place.

Two, Durkon's intolerance was for dishonorable conduct, not chaotic alignment or religious faith.

Three, around this same time Roy abandoned Elan to die at the hands of a group of bandits. These are not the same people as we currently have in the comic.

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

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"The baby's happy, so you should be happy to let him be raised by an abusive evil criminal witch" is not really a strong argument.

Hilgya may be a terrible mother in the meta-sense in which Hogwarts is a really horrible boarding school that should have been closed yesterday. However, in that sense, each and every member of the Order of the Stick is an unrepentant murderer.
It is fun to point it out, yes, but the fact that people are so serious about it really scares me.

I notice you apply these lighter standards to Hilgya but not to Durkon.

[Petrocorus]

You can't kill rock and roll O-Chul.

O-Chul doesn't get dead. Death get o-chuled.

It goes beyond that. In general, when he's turned towards Durkon, he's happy; when he's turned away, he's sad.

Indeed. I wonder why he seems so disturbed. His attention seems to be drawn to something weird in the room.

Also, you have apparently forgotten that Durkon isn't married to Hilgya.
The only person other than her who has legal rights to her child under the law I know is her ex-husband.

Man it’s a shame that’s not enough to take her child from her ‘she’s toxic’ is not legal reasoning, has she abused him? has she neglected him? Being a bad person is not enough to lose custody, even with her assault on Durkon, he isn’t pressing charges clearly so that can’t be used, she hasn’t done anything that could legally take her child from her, because morality aside, if there ain’t a LEGAL reason to take him, MORALS do not matter at all, because if there is no legal reasons, then that’s called kidnapping, you can’t take him from her because there’s no legal reason that would allow it, it’s that simple, especially because Hilgya has shown to be pretty ****ing ruthless with lawyers if this did go to some sort of court so it wouldn’t be all that easy to beat her if you did somehow manage to get her into court on child endangerment

I won't chime in the moral debate that has already become sterile, i'd just like to point out that you both seem to know A LOT about the laws and the legal system of the dwarven kingdom of the OotSverse.

[jwhouk]

"If you wonder how he eats and breathes,
And other science facts (tralala)
Just tell yourself, 'it's just a show,
I should probably relax'..."

[CriticalFailure]

As I notice the panels more and more, I get the feeling they are being watched.

There are shadows of flames in every panel and the background seems to be kinda greyed out.
Its more obvious in the last panel.

Who do you guys think watches them? Hel? the Archfiends? Someone else?

The fiends would make sense, they're trying to figure out how to best use their remaining time with V.

If they are being watched it could maaybe be Team Evil. I don't think Xykon cares enough to follow up on them but Redcloak might, especially after that encounter at Girard's Gate. Though I think that possibility depends on Redcloak convincing MiTD to entertain Xykon for long enough for him to get a chance to use the crystal ball.

She didn't want him dead. She wanted to murder him. In D&D, that's two different things.

I don't get why people suddenly apply real world logic to Hilgya, when no one ever did for any of the other characters. (I do suspect it's because she's a woman and it is about who gets to seize ownership of her baby, though.)

This is the world where people consider fighting their elderly friends and relatives do the death. The people who openly talk about that are still deemed good people because people accept the premise that this actually benefits the elderly person.

But when it comes to Hilgya, everyone suddenly forgets the wackyness of D&D life, death and afterlife rules, and pretends this is a real life situation.

That's a good point, it always seems to be Hilgya and Miko who people act like real life standards should apply to, but none of the other characters.

[SpectralTime]

...That was very mature and well-written. For both of them.

And also, that bit at the end was so sweet I'm still happy.

Thank you.

[Martok]

This strip always gets a reaction from me: laughs, chuckles, tears, exalted fist-pumping, etc.

This one, though, simply made me smile. The cold lump of resin in place of my heart is a little warmer than usual right now.

[Aetius]

Wow, that custody dispute did escalate, didn't it?

Hilgya may be a terrible mother in the meta-sense in which Hogwarts is a really horrible boarding school that should have been closed yesterday. However, in that sense, each and every member of the Order of the Stick is an unrepentant murderer.
It is fun to point it out, yes, but the fact that people are so serious about it really scares me.

Yes, you can get away with horrible stuff in stories. But that usually only applies to the protagonist or characters supporting him.
So you can get away with taking a baby from it's mother as long as you are the good protagonist and the mother is a mere recurring character. And evil to boot.

How is wanting Kuzdu to end up in Durkons sole custody worse than wanting Howarts to stay open?

I don't mind Hilgya keeping (shared) custody even though she does seem to be a bad mother, because it's just a story.
But I do think Harry Potter should be imprisoned for using unforgivable curses. That really bugged me. But probably that's just because he's a rich white man.

[The_Weirdo]

So cute, Hylgya almost looks like a decent person..

* The paladin stands in front of a mirror and says: The Weirdo, the Weirdo, The Weirdo* xD

You rang?

So, Summon Weirdo X?

I have a name, you know. It's not an indeterminate number.

No, that was Summon Weirdo III, Spanish Paladin doesn’t have enough Cleric levels for Summon Weirdo X

"There is only one thing in life worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." - Oscar Wilde.

I see everyone’s being on about Hilgya not losing custody? May I remind you all what she did to the last clan of dwarves that crossed her? Hilgya would 100% murder anyone who tries to take her child, it’s plain dangerous for everyone to even try ESPECIALLY because Hilgya has actually been a pretty decent mom so it’s not like Kudzu’s in danger to create a moral dilemma

Hear hear!

This.

Taking away a woman's baby because you deem her immoral ... hmmmm ... where have we seen this before? Do people here really, really think that is a morally justifiable thing to do?

Anyone who would even consider taking Kudzu away from Hilgya is at least as bad a person as she is.

She's a good mother to Kudzu, so there's no justification for taking him away from her. End of story.

On the bolded, I'll take "Nowhere good" for 100 dollars.

She is not dangerous to her child. "Handed him to a vampire while dominated by said vampire" doesn't count. Nor does "kept him with her while going into a situation she considered reasonably safe for herself" count. Do you also want to take away the babies of women who put them in cars? Car accidents kill lots of people, you know?

Also, you have apparently forgotten that Durkon isn't married to Hilgya. The only person other than her who has legal rights to her child under the law I know is her ex-husband.

(Besides, have you considered that Tarquin got custody of Nale? Tarquin, that guy who, you know, murders people for entertainment, forces woman to marry him and then presumably rapes them until they die? That Tarquin? The one who also took Nale into battle, by the way? And ultimately murdered him? Or is that different because he is male?)


Let's not forget that Durkon just got Hilgya pregnant and then sent her back to a husband he had just been told was abusive. He's not exactly the father of the year, and certainly hasn't done anything to deserve custody.

Oh, Thermys, more and more I find myself pleased with you.

1) The insinuation here is hardly necessary.

Given the context around Hilgya especially with regards to her forced marriage and how some reacted thereto, I would hardly call that hardly necessary.

OK, I'll get the popcorn going.

Make some for me.

You forgot the focus
Focus
A small, forked metal rod. The size and metal type dictates to which plane of existence or alternate dimension the spell sends the affected creatures

So once again she hadn’t decided on the plane yet so would she have them yet

Maybe she has two or more focuses. Foci. Focaccia.

Hmm, focaccia.

If we take it seriously that V uses a "tentacles of forced intrusion" then V is a rapist, which by rights should make V evil. Yet V is clearly not evil when they meet Miko. As I recall she did a detect evil on everyone but Belkar with his lead sheet.

(...)

But with Hilgya, not only things that are meant to indicate that she has a tendency towards violence (let's not forget V isn't evil in-comic despite frequently using explosive runes on people who are being annoying) are taken as proof of extreme evilness, but even the fact that she brings a baby into battle (which is clearly NOT meant to indicate bad parenting) is taken at face value.



Edit: And claiming that Hilgya wouldn't let Kudzu worship Thor or even become a cleric is EXTREMELY ridiculous. Really, please do THINK for a moment. Hilgya had sex with a cleric of Thor, and unlike Durkon had every intention of making that a long-term relationship. She probably wouldn't be happy if Kudzu risked his afterlife by not using her way of cheating the system, but she certainly wouldn't disinherit him or anything.

On the bolded, I've actually seen people arguing that being a rapist doesn't make one Evil in RPGs (a line of thinking with which I strenuously disagree), by way of fictional cultural relativism: "It's normal in their culture, so they aren't Evil for doing it". Brazilian setting Tormenta has an all-male minotaur race that is imperialistic, has an economy based on slavery, has harems full of sex slaves and spent literally two decades being treated as Lawful Neutral within the setting. I am so glad their god died horribly in the latest romance of the setting, at the hands of a woman author no less. On my side, I wish that the Lovecraftian now-deity that did the god in would do the same to the entire race. (I still resent the time my char had to kneel in front of the minotaur god...).

Well, people have been arguing that bankrupting the clan was somehow an Evil act too...

Also, Hilgya is Chaotic. She's much more likely to let her son tread the path he chooses by that virtue alone.

Wow, that custody dispute did escalate, didn't it?

You mean the one neither Durkon nor Hilgya seem to want? You know, seeing as they both, by their own initiative, look very much keen on settling it all amicably and on making sure the other stays a part of Kudzu's life.

On the rest and on the strip itself:

1- Both Durkon and Hilgya seem to operate, with regards to Kudzu, like reasonable parents. Good. Good for Kudzu, especially.
2- "Do your duty and go back to the forced marriage that for all I know is abusive, especially if it makes you miserable" is not at all conductive to the well-being of anyone. And yet no one is arguing that, oh, say, anyone else but Durkon should have custody of Kudzu.
3- Chaotics do not make good authoritarians. Which, considering that authoritarianism is the ultimate form of evil, is a good thing.
4- Hilgya accepted that Durkon will be part of Kudzu's life. Durkon accepted that Hilgya would keep taking care of him. Hilgya offered Kudzu for Durkon to hold, by her own initiative. This is not a stifling, authoritarian abuse enabler and, as someone else put it, a "cruel witch" messing up the entire future of a child. This is two high-WIS, mature adults that have very good reasons to deeply dislike one another doing their level best for the sake of that child and acting very civil, given the context.

[Fyraltari]

*Look at thread*

Well we apparently no longer The Weirdo’s participation for... this to happen over Hilgya, just to invoke his name.

I’d be impressed were I not disappointed.

[The_Weirdo]

*Look at thread*

Well we apparently no longer The Weirdo’s participation for... this to happen over Hilgya, just to invoke his name.

I’d be impressed were I not disappointed.

I appeared after the party started and, to be fair, Spanish_Paladin did say my name specifically three times into a mirror.

Incidentally, if you have watched Disenchantment, I would very much like to tell you that, in one specific part at least, the French translation is better than the original in that they made it rhyme and sound like the kind of exchange you might see in Astérix!

[Fyraltari]

I appeared after the party started and, to be fair, Spanish_Paladin did say my name specifically three times into a mirror.

That... is exactly what I said?

Disenchantment[/I], I would very much like to tell you that, in one specific part at least, the French translation is better than the original!

I haven’t and have no plan to. What do you mean and how do you know (I think you don’t speak French even though you are a translator by trade)?

[Aetius]

Given the context around Hilgya especially with regards to her forced marriage and how some reacted thereto, I would hardly call that hardly necessary.

I don't know the exact reactions you are referring to. But I would expect there to be a strong bias in favor of Durkon anyway on the merit of him being a well known protagonist and Hilgya being introduced as an antagonist.
So people taking his side doesn't necessarily point towards a gender-issue.

You mean the one neither Durkon nor Hilgya seem to want?

Yes, that one.

Chaotics do not make good authoritarians.

Very debatable. Authoritarianism is usually defined by a gouvernement not tolerating opposition and a lack of civil liberties protecting you against said government.
Chaotics don't want to follow rules themselves but that doesn't mean they can't expect everyone else to do as they are told and kill everyone who opposes them.
Like Xykon killing People out of boredom or because the dare to ask for a raise without caring about liberties - except of course his own.
That sounds pretty authoritarian to me.

Which, considering that authoritarianism is the ultimate form of evil, is a good thing.

So arbitrarily torturing millions of people to death for no reason at all bringing terror to the world would be a lesser form of evil than taking over a country and rule it with an iron fist? Why?

[Fyraltari]

3- Chaotics do not make good authoritarians.

You have watched enough Doctor Who to be familiar with the character of The Master, yes? Because that is someone who is definitely both CE and authoritarian.

[The_Weirdo]

I haven’t and have no plan to. What do you mean and how do you know (I think you don’t speak French even though you are a translator by trade)?

You're right that I don't speak French. But I know a thing or two, of course.

Spoiler: Disenchantment

Show

The original line was: "Aren't you the crazy lizard queen of Dreamland?" to which a character replies: "I am the crazy lizard queen of NO land!". In the French version, it goes (pardon my spelling) "N'etre vous pas la bizarre reigne lézard que partis?" to which she replies: "Je suis la bizarre reigne lézard sans patrie!"

I don't know the exact reactions you are referring to. But I would expect there to be a strong bias in favor of Durkon anyway on the merit of him being a well known protagonist and Hilgya being introduced as an antagonist.
So people taking his side doesn't necessarily point towards a gender-issue.

There was a lot of hemming and hawwing over whether or not Hilgya did something to deserve to be married by force or that caused or necessitated it, which raises red flags with regards to it being possibly a gender issue...

Snip.

Lawful tends to be way wider in scale than Chaotic. And mind that at no point I said anything about governments, but people. Or authoritarianism in general.

You have watched enough Doctor Who to be familiar with the character of The Master, yes? Because that is someone who is definitely both CE and authoritarian.

Okay, in general, Chaotics do not make good authoritarians.

For every The Master, there are countless Darth Vaders, M. Bisons, Geese Howards, Kefkas, etc.

[Robot Samurai]

Awwwwww!

Have you not seen films? Never declare any form of love or potential happiness before heading off on a mission.

[HorizonWalker]

Lawful tends to be way wider in scale than Chaotic. And mind that at no point I said anything about governments, but people. Or authoritarianism in general.



Okay, in general, Chaotics do not make good authoritarians.

For every The Master, there are countless Darth Vaders, M. Bisons, Geese Howards, Kefkas, etc.

Have you read The Authoritarians(warning: direct PDF link) by Bob Altemeyer? Probably the most immediately relevant insight the book gives us is that there's more than one kind of Authoritarian. Sure, Authoritarian Followers are Lawful to a fault, but the manipulators who tend to lead the Followers are usually pretty Chaotic, being generally very bereft of any principles whatsoever beyond serving their own selfish desires.