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2019-12-12, 11:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Scribe Scroll, does the writing materials matter?
Originally Posted by Scribe ScrollOriginally Posted by ScrollsOriginally Posted by Player's Handbook II p.186Originally Posted by Complete Arcane p.140
I need choice writing materials which is paper, pen, and ink, that costs a total of 100gp.
According to PHBII, you can use kraken ink and half petrified calf vellum with a choice quill to create a scroll.
But can it be other stuff?
Illusory Script, a spell, requires lead based ink costing 50gp.
A vellum spellbook according to Complete Arcane costs 50gp for 100 pages. That means "fine vellum" costs 0.5gp per page.
So can I use lead based ink and vellum and a custom gold inkpen worth 49.5gp to create the 100gp scroll? Or does it have to be kraken ink and half petrified calf vellum?
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2019-12-13, 01:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Scribe Scroll, does the writing materials matter?
The exact, presumably specific materials used in the creation of any magic item are deliberately abstracted to save both space in the books and headache at the table.
The cost is set by the spell(s) contained within the scroll rather than the ink, vellum, and quill's material or quality. A 100gp scroll would contain some combination of level 0 and 1 spells at the costs of 12.5 and 25gp each, respectively.
Scribing such a scroll costs half as much in abstracted raw materials as well as 1/25 of that value in xp. The only way to adjust those costs downward is to take certain feats that explicitly reduce magic item crafting costs.
The cost actually increases with the caster level of the spells. The given values are the presumed minimums.Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2019-12-13 at 01:19 AM.
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2019-12-13, 01:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Scribe Scroll, does the writing materials matter?
I don't think you understood me.
I want to know if I have to use kraken ink or if I can use any ink.
I know this. I'm saying if a scroll costs 100gp to make, so its market price is 200gp, can i use lead ink, fine vellum, and a gold inkpen to create it? Or do I have to use kraken ink and petrified calf vellum?
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2019-12-13, 01:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Scribe Scroll, does the writing materials matter?
Kelb underatood you. He was saying that exact materials may be required, but what they are specifically is left undefined so that DMs and/or PCs have room to fluff as they desire. The real cost is a certain gp amount of items which are consumed. The Scribe Spell feat does not prescribe a specific material.
Last edited by Hellpyre; 2019-12-13 at 02:00 AM.
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2019-12-13, 02:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Scribe Scroll, does the writing materials matter?
I'm wondering by RAW, because they don't specify specific material, can you use any material whose sum is the total cost?
I ask because I want to make the materials myself using craft check from things I find in wild. Kill calf, turn its skin into vellum, find lead, make ink, then make a really high quality artsy inkpen.
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2019-12-13, 02:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Scribe Scroll, does the writing materials matter?
I think you're the one who's misunderstood. The rules don't explicitly say. They very deliberately don't, in fact. Only your GM can answer what the specific materials are if, for whatever reason, he decides not to leave well enough alone. If you happen to have the ink of a kraken and some fine vellum sheets, you can ask your GM if you can subtract their cost from the materials necessary but there are no written rules to suggest that either would or wouldn't be the case.
In any case, you certainly can't scribe the scroll for less than values associated with the magic unless your GM explicitly houserules to the contrary. Whatever the specific ink, sheet, and quill you use; a 1st level scroll costs 12.5gp in raw material and 1 xp to scribe.I am not seaweed. That's a B.
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2019-12-13, 02:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Scribe Scroll, does the writing materials matter?
Kelb understood you, his point was that you can use any ink you want, becuase the materials are left ambiguous on purpose. To scribe a 100gp scroll, you merely need to consume 50gp of "scroll scribing reagents", and spend 2 xp. What exactly the scroll scribing reagents are comprised of is largely just flavourful and ultimately irrelevant.
As an aside, the rules you linked from complete arcane aren't for scribing scrolls, they're for creating more durable spellbooks.
It would be up to your DM to determine if the things you craft are of a high enough quality. You may produce a large quantity of low quality materials who's value comes out to 50gp, but the DM may deem that they're, at best, simply usable for standard bookeeping. If I were the DM, I would require at least DC20 (masterwork quality) on the craft checks when making the vellum and ink.Last edited by Crake; 2019-12-13 at 02:09 AM.
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2019-12-13, 02:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Scribe Scroll, does the writing materials matter?
But scrolls don't require specific materials like potion ingredients. I think rules say I can use kraken ink or lead ink, it doesn't matter as long as total cost is the same. I think.
Does scroll of magic missile require a specific type of ink? or just any high quality ink? If it's the latter then i can do what I want. If it's the former then i can't. I think the rules is saying it's the latter right? any choice writing material, doesn't matter what it's made from.
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2019-12-13, 02:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Scribe Scroll, does the writing materials matter?
Yeah that's what I wanted to hear. Potions need specific ingredients that isn't said. Crafting weapons also specific magic ingredients that isn't said. But with scrolls I think it doesn't matter what the materials are as long as they all add up to scroll cost.
No, it's just that one quote to find out how much fine vellum costs. Everything else is scrolls.
Of course I can craft it. I am PC, master crafter. Best crafter in world after a few levels.Last edited by newguydude1; 2019-12-13 at 02:11 AM.
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2019-12-13, 02:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Scribe Scroll, does the writing materials matter?
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2019-12-13, 02:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Scribe Scroll, does the writing materials matter?
That's entirely and explicitly up to your GM. I wouldn't get my hopes up. That's an -awful- lot of game time to spend on something you're presumably going to be doing fairly often. Given the costs associated, I also very seriously doubt that the design intent was for the material to be relatively mundane. You said yourself something about kraken ink; not exactly easily harvested.
If I were your GM, I'd only go with this plan as a mcguffin style fetch quest for a unique, plot-critical, homebrew spell that -must- be cast from a scroll to function correctly.I am not seaweed. That's a B.
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2019-12-13, 02:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-12-13, 02:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Scribe Scroll, does the writing materials matter?
No magical item crafting in 3.5 has specific ingredients, beyond those that the DM decides to specify. It's an intentional design choice by the developers to make magic item crafting less fiddly.
You also realise the inherent contradiction in "specific ingredients" and "that isn't said", right? If the specific ingredients aren't said, then they aren't specific ingredients.
The prices listed are for 100 pages of vellum, not a single sheet.
Sure, if you're happy to put the skill ranks into craft, just making sure.World of Madius wiki - My personal campaign setting, including my homebrew Optional Gestalt/LA rules.
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2019-12-13, 02:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-12-13, 02:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Scribe Scroll, does the writing materials matter?
"Lead based ink" covers a huge band of quality levels. The same as having "water based paints", you can buy it for $2 a bucket, or you can pay $10 for a small tube of water-based paint paste. Likewise, you can pay 50gp for a bucket of low quality lead based ink, or 50gp for an 8 oz vial of high quality lead based ink. 50gp is simply the budget.
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2019-12-13, 02:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-12-13, 02:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Scribe Scroll, does the writing materials matter?
Sure, but 0.5gp doesn't exactly cover much of the 50gp crafting materials to make a 100gp scroll. And just wait until you need to make a 1000gp scroll.
Ultimately, the only one who you can work this out with is the DM, but keep in mind that, assuming you need to hit craft DC20 for the ink quality to be good enough, and lets assume your craft check is 25 to make things nice and rounded, it would take you a whole week to craft 50gp worth of high quality lead ink. Now, while that may seem reasonable right now, when you're crafting a 1000gp scroll, and you need 500gp worth of ink, and that takes you 10 weeks to craft, suddenly, is it really worth your time and effort?World of Madius wiki - My personal campaign setting, including my homebrew Optional Gestalt/LA rules.
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2019-12-13, 02:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Scribe Scroll, does the writing materials matter?
You're missing the point, my dude.
We -cannot- answer your question with regard to the lead based ink from illusory script except to say how we would rule it at our own tables if we're GMing.
Again, I personally wouldn't allow it. I'm not dedicating that kind of table time just so you can save chump-change when I'm already handing out standard treasure.I am not seaweed. That's a B.
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2019-12-13, 02:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Scribe Scroll, does the writing materials matter?
I mean, lead isn't just "rocks". You still need to prospect and find a lead seam, mine it, purify it, and then craft the ink. That's not to mention risking lead poisoning from all the handling of lead that you're doing. Or... you can just buy the lead ink from the profits you make while adventuring in that same period of time.
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2019-12-13, 02:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Scribe Scroll, does the writing materials matter?
I disagree. I think the OP did a fantastic job here.
He has shown you just need expensive writing materials, not specific writing materials. Which means by RAW he is right, any expensive high quality writing material will suffice. You don't need to hash anything out with a DM.
I think it's obvious he's gonna use fabricate. And if the scroll is going to be cast immediately and costs under 1000gp he can use major creation to create the scroll materials since we've established the materials are mundane.
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2019-12-13, 02:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-12-13, 02:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Scribe Scroll, does the writing materials matter?
Yes.
You can make any mundane item. High quality ones require craft checks, though I'm pretty sure you don't need to craft paper or ink since it's not a complex item. If you want an expensive inkpen then you need a craft check for that.
You can't use major creation for material components, but it says nothing about crafting materials and you're not using it for material components.
So yeah, if your major creation lasts at least 9 hours, you're good. 8 hours to create the thing, and 1 hour window to cast the thing. Otherwise POOF it disappears.
You can't make Kraken ink because that's not a mineral or plant though.
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2019-12-13, 02:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Scribe Scroll, does the writing materials matter?
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2019-12-13, 02:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Scribe Scroll, does the writing materials matter?
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2019-12-13, 02:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Scribe Scroll, does the writing materials matter?
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2019-12-13, 02:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Scribe Scroll, does the writing materials matter?
If you want the scribing materials to matter then this is a good way to do it. The basic scroll costs would represent readily available/mass-produced (if still decent quality) ink and parchment. But if you want a heightened scroll instead, or one with some other metamagic baked in, maybe you need a more exotic ink for that version - as well as the skin of a magical beast of some kind, or even a dragon. This keeps general item creation accessible (no need to call for a sidequest every time you want a few waterbreathing scrolls), but if you want to make more powerful versions then your GM might call for you to go on a mini-adventure or have some contacts.
This gets particularly cool in Pathfinder because you can craft metamagic scrolls/wands without needing the requisite metamagic feats, by increasing your crafting DC by 5 for each requirement (other than the item creation feat and the spell itself) that you don't meet, and increasing the crafting costs by the new spell level. This level increase makes the scrolls more expensive, which can then be represented by a more costly/exotic material. For example, you might rule that to create a Threnodic Deep Slumber scroll, the caster needs to mix crushed onyx into the ink with a value equal to the cost difference between crafting that and crafting a normal Deep Slumber scroll (i.e. an extra ~300 gp or so.)Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2019-12-13, 03:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Scribe Scroll, does the writing materials matter?
Explain to me though, what is the point of this? You need to expend the spell slot to create the scroll, you've covered the material costs for free with major creation sure, so all you've done is waste 8 hours crafting, and limit yourself to a 1 hour window in which you could have just cast the spell normally anyway, so all you've done is limit yourself, and of course, lets not forget the extra xp cost you put on yourself. Oh, and of course, you wasted an extra spell slot on major creation. So you spent 2 spell slots, a bunch of xp, 8 hours of crafting, all to what, limit the time in which you can cast the spell from "any time today" to "1 hour after i finish crafting".
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2019-12-13, 03:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Scribe Scroll, does the writing materials matter?
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2019-12-13, 03:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Scribe Scroll, does the writing materials matter?
Not so.
Originally Posted by Scribe Scroll
This is just a "the rules don't say I can't" argument.
I think it's obvious he's gonna use fabricate. And if the scroll is going to be cast immediately and costs under 1000gp he can use major creation to create the scroll materials since we've established the materials are mundane.I am not seaweed. That's a B.
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2019-12-13, 03:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Scribe Scroll, does the writing materials matter?
3 spell slots. Paper, Ink, and Inkpen. Inkpen must also be fresh, new, nad unused, which means one use only.
My DM likes to do Robinson Crusoe stuff so our party ends up shipwrecked in their underwear more often than we'd like.
I used this trick to create a scroll of wish which i used to create a construct or a scroll of simulacrum (since that 12 hour casting time is gonna make the scroll go poof before it fires).
If your DM doesn't screw you out of your wealth then all this trick does is save you some money if there's a high level spell you want to cast right now like teleport.